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Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 09:09 AM
During the excavations of a sandstone rockshelter in Krapina, Croatia
in 1895-1906 649 shattered and demolished pieces of skull, skeleton,
teeth were found dating back to the Last Interglacial 130000 B.P., a
period of warmish climate which lasted about 60000years.
Only five skulls were up to the point intact for examination,
labelled A thru E, C and D belonged to adults.
Skull A, pertaining to a 3-5years old child, consist of the cap of
the braincase, frontal bone, the left pariental, part of the right
pariental.
The skull was very large wth a breadth over 150mm, but modernly thin-
walled, with a steep climbing forehead and weak browridges.
It had frontal tuberas, bosses projecting from either side of the
forehead, I have to recapitulate again that this phenomenon persist
until today in the Valle Brünn and the Basques(both Westpyrenean
and
Alpine types), an indication that neanderthaloid fetures have
survived in West Europeans either due to admixture or some groups of
Neanderthalers converted in a more gracilized condition.
Skull C is from a young woman and resembles A, but her skull was
medium-size...and brachycephalic: 83.7 and unlike the extremely flat-
vaulted classic Neanderthalers afterwards, on the lower end of
orthocephaly, LHI 70.5!
Skull D was larger(breadth 169mm!) and nearly hyperbrachycephalic,
85.5.
The browridges, while heavy in confrontation with modern men, didn't
give cause to form a superciliary torus, but were divided over
nasion, the Mladec type approaches this condition.
The orbits are widely seperated and square,Cro Magnon, Plau and some
East Europid races display a similar trait.
Their facial flatness offers too room to relate them beyond the
threshold of Time to Central European roundheads.
Zygomatics and the upper jaw bone are full below the orbits, not
especially portruding, like all other Neanderthalers there's no
canine fossa(cheek hollowness), but the mandible is thin built.
The forehead is higher than usual in Neaderthal Man, but the face shows
mid-facial prognatism and the skull has an occipital bun.
The post-cranial bones are with some exceptions European and modern
defined: neck vertebrae, collarbones, shoulder blades, the upper arm
bone,...in combination with the small and slender built they would tend to
resemble the Vedda and Dravidians, which once were regarded as a
stagnated phyle within the evolution conducting to the Europid, or
even Nordic race.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 03:03 AM
Highly interesting. Thanks for the article. You do not happen to have images of these skulls?

Do you believe in the Neanderthaler absorption theory? Is there any evidence for Neanderthaler genes in modern European populations?

- Thorburn

Interesting info here on a half neanderthal child found in Portugal in 1998:
http://www.geocities.com/gardenofdanu/The_Mammoth_Hunters.htm

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 07:25 PM
Highly interesting. Thanks for the article. You do not happen to have images of these skulls?

Do you believe in the Neanderthaler absorption theory? Is there any evidence for Neanderthaler genes in modern European populations?

- Thorburn

MtDNA research ruled the Neanderthaler out of the phylogeny of Modern Sapiens, but there's a twist to the credibility of such tests and the accuracy of the proposed use of a molecular clock:

http://www.modernhumanorigins.com/anth588.html

And since albeit infrequent occurrence of evolutionary reversal has no net change, it can't be read from the molecular record.
This reversal purports a special mutation is in the process and induces its opposite course, so that an alteration back and forth to the original state.

Well, I am myself an extreme multiregionalist of the ilk of Milton Wolpoff, whose "Race and Human Evolution: A fatal attraction" I just come to order,and what I see, especially in the Qafzeh and Skhull deposits are a highly variable single group of people, wherein some are on the brink to develop in Weinerts Mittlere Rassenlinie, or the Australo-Caucasian branch, from which I suspect that Meds and Nords derive, while the Central European Neanderthalers will in time give rise to the Alpinid-Borreby phylum.
What I forgot to mention in my primary entry was that the Krapina Neanderthalers were...snub-nosed.

http://sapphire.indstate.edu/~ramanank/skulls4.html

Gladstone
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 09:05 PM
Do you believe in the Neanderthaler absorption theory? Is there any evidence for Neanderthaler genes in modern European populations?- Thorburn


I once heard a radio interview where this archeologist claimed that while walking on a downtown city street's sidewalk he ran across a man that had what he believed to be distinctive Neanderthalic features (that is facial features and bone structure etc.). Fascinated, the archeologist wanted to approach the fellow in an attempt to persuade the man to have himself examined at a laboratory. The scientist, concerned about the would be test subject's response and possibly concerned about his own physical safety as well, could not bring himself to do it, and so, kept on walking.

What a loss!

The world may have had what ultimately proves to be a one time opportunity to study a living Neanderthal and this guy botches it!

Ahh well. Life goes on.

:prost
Gladstone

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 11:42 AM
Ja, I have heard about this child. What is half a Neanderthaler for some, is a deformed Sapiens for others, though. There might not be enough evidence to come to a definite conclusion.

Well, I dont know about you, but this Neanderthaler child could pass as any European child with some Bruenn or other UP blood in him.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/prod_03.html

Utgard-Loki
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 03:24 PM
Well, I dont know about you, but this Neanderthaler child could pass as any European child with some Bruenn or other UP blood in him.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/prod_03.html

Hmm, Frans i have heard Nīs hada larger Brain Volume than Homo
Sapiens were they superior Thinkers ?

The Dorftrottel from a near Town is a bit Neandershaped ,too.
He is the Taifun - Man because he has the Nasty Habit to spit
while he talks...

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 03:45 PM
Hmm, Frans i have heard Nīs hada larger Brain Volume than Homo
Sapiens were they superior Thinkers ?

The Dorftrottel from a near Town is a bit Neandershaped ,too.
He is the Taifun - Man because he has the Nasty Habit to spit
while he talks...

I will dedictate a whole thread by next week on the issue of intelligence of the Neanderthaler and his culture.
Expect some real surprises!

If the dorpsgek or Dorfstrottel is synonym for Neanderthaler, than nearly all Europids are imbiciles, since in nose type, the recurrence and retention of occipital buns in some taxons, and the mere fact that modern Europids have normally a face breadth smaller to the breadth of the head,etc..we share a set of traits in mutuality with this archaic sapiens, ...

cosmocreator
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 06:16 PM
I don't know if neanderthals were more intelligent than us but their senses were probably sharper. I await Fran's post.

Utgard-Loki
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 07:56 PM
I don't know if neanderthals were more intelligent than us but their senses were probably sharper. I await Fran's post.

Yes this Post will be very interesting,
the faith of the Neanderthaler is a
great mystery to me together with the
Disapearing of the Norse Settlers in
Greenland.

Heil ! your Utgard-Loki

Polak
Friday, August 15th, 2003, 02:30 PM
He just looks like a normal kid to me.

In fact, if this reconstruction is correct, then it would seem this species was more similar to us Europeans than we are to Africans and Asians.

Then again, what would a kid like this look like as a grown up?

Gladstone
Friday, August 15th, 2003, 07:21 PM
We were really scared of him as children, although he is a totally harmless idiot. Just his look and pace is very terrifying. You would not like to meet him in a dark alley, believe me.;)

That makes an excellent description of many of our American politicians excepting that quite a few of our pols are harmful. :(

No offense meant to any Dorftrottels. ;)

Gladstone