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Schutzstaffelor
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 12:32 AM
picture of north korean sailors demonstrating against US

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 03:30 AM
Mostly Sinid/Nordsinid with Tungid admixture - in some weaker, in some stronger. Quite typical for Korea which is mostly Nordsinid with Tungid, Mittelsinid and partly even Ainuid admixture.

Schutzstaffelor
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 03:52 AM
the guy in the middle (4th guy from left) looks particularly tungid.

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 12:07 PM
the guy in the middle (4th guy from left) looks particularly tungid.

Thats true, he is almost fully Tungid. But its interesting to compare his facial features to those of the others, the main difference is really the broader, slightly more coarse face. A comparison of a typical Tungid from Mongolia and a typical Nordsinid from Manchuria would look different, so finally its a mixed folk stock - population with specific features, but specialised Nordsinid/Sinid type is dominant.

Schutzstaffelor
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 04:35 PM
korean celebrities. view with discretion, korean actresses have a notorious reputation among asians for doing cosmetic surgery, but generally it is believed that among asians (at least by Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese audiences) that Korea have the best looking people, analogous to how Sweden is to Europe.


as you can see from the photos, all are of the nordsinid variety, there are no tungid or mittelsinid phenotypes to be seen (agrippa?).

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Nordsinid I'd say, but with other admixture, just the typical Korean type. I agree, this type is healthy looking and progressive, the main deficite is partly the too pyknomorphic body build and shorter legs, but thats different in the various variants, social types. In general they are really a good representative for the progressive Mongolid peak (especially progressive Nordsinid similar to Jakunin-type of Japan, like most of the people pictured), together with Manchurians, Nordsinids of China and the Japanese Jakunin-type.

Edwin
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Some of the examples posted are rather more gracile, or Agrippa's "progressive," than is generally thought of as respectable in Korea. Those of Government, the Armed Forces, and Industry are much more robust.

This also applies in China. The more "progressive" types are those of the striving peasant and serving classes, not of the established.

No amount of false association will do much to change this.

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 06:19 PM
Some of the examples posted are rather more gracile, or Agrippa's "progressive," than is generally thought of as respectable in Korea. Those of Government, the Armed Forces, and Industry are much more robust.

This also applies in China. The more "progressive" types are those of the striving peasant and serving classes, not of the established.

No amount of false association will do much to change this.

Paedomorphic-infantile types might be "broader build" with shorter legs and broader body, more pyknomorphic, but they are not really more robust, even on the contrary, their bone structure is weaker - gracile. The only broad Mongolid type which is robust are the Tungids, and they are simply a cold adaptation - overspecialised.
There are more robust Sinids, which are also progressive, but mesomorphic or leptomorphic body build is not decisive, the overall bone structure and length of the extremities is more important for a comparison of progressive Nordsinids and more infantile Palaemongolids (which are not primitive either).

Korean students which show the dominance of progressive types but with great variation and Tungid and paedomorphic individuals either:
http://governor.utah.gov/photos/Photos%20from%202004/07_2004%20July/2004%20July%2021/Korean%20students/IMG_9204.jpg

Two progressive types from the North and South:
http://1stopkorea.com/images/nk-dmz-nk-soldier-closeup.jpg
http://1stopkorea.com/images/nk-dmz-sk-soldier-closeup.jpg

More robust ("Cromagnoid", Mittel-) Sinid type, still progressive, but might show influences of Tungid and an Ainuid variant:
http://www.ato.atfreeweb.com/ziggy_files/North%20Korean%20Soldier.JPG

Edwin
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 07:19 PM
You have me a bit confused.

Did you mean to say that Mittelsinids are more Cro-Magnoid and robust than Nordsinids?

Do you mean to say that pyknomorphic variants of one type are less "progressive" than leptomorphic variants of the same? *Of a different type?

And if not, then why do you constantly use "progressive" only for the leptomorphic, regardless of its actual status?



*Cro-Magnid and Capellid should be separate points of departure. When one calls a Nordid "progressive," one should say "for the Capellid." Likewise, an Alpinid or Dinarid is progressive "for the Cro-Magnid." Using "progressive" alone is deceptive, *especially when its use is in the context of greater or lesser.

However, when pyknomorphic and leptomorphic variants exist of the same form, as often happens in the Mongoloid, they must be treated as equally progressive. This to some extent is alike to the Alpinid and Dinarid departures from the Cro-Magnid.

Since the Capellid does not have a pyknomorphic variant, it must be judged differently. You can't equate the "progressive" of the Nordid with the "progressive" of the Dinarid, and leave the Alpinid as "degenerate." To do so is unscientific.

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 08:01 PM
Did you mean to say that Mittelsinids are more Cro-Magnoid and robust than Nordsinids?

Well, whats all being lumped together as Mittelsinid shows great individual and regional variation - but especially certain areas of Mittelsinids directly under the Nordsinid areas in China show people with broader faces-heads.


Do you mean to say that pyknomorphic variants of one type are less "progressive" than leptomorphic variants of the same? *Of a different type?

Basically I could argue so by using only adult-leptomorphic body types as being progressive, what I generally do, but finally thats of secondary importance, the differences are bigger than that in the cases I described above.


And if not, then why do you constantly use "progressive" only for the leptomorphic, regardless of its actual status?

Well, Negrids are leptomorphic too, Melanids, Weddids and Australomelanids most of the time as well (interestingly less so if its about the facial features - tropical leptomorphics), so its not true that being leptomorphic is always progressive, it depends on many other features too and even the body build in detail.



*Cro-Magnid and Capellid should be separate points of departure. When one calls a Nordid "progressive," one should say "for the Capellid." Likewise, an Alpinid or Dinarid is progressive "for the Cro-Magnid." Using "progressive" alone is deceptive, especially when its use is in the context of greater or lesser.

That makes some sense, but finally you must understand what the difference between Dalofaelids and Nordids is in terms of specialisation. The Nordid type is a more mobile type which is less adapted to the cold. As I said, the frequency of leptomorphic types increased very fast and drastically in many areas of Europe, many times without immigration, after the last ice age. The broader body build means you have to use more energy without having too much advantages if you have group selection. The main advantage was the better control of the temperature of the body.
The boreal body type has just one real advantage, he is good for the cold and hard, constant physical work, in many other areas, both psychologically and physically, there is no advantage or even a disadvantage - especially if the climate is warm. Even Cromagnids themselves were rather mesomorphic than really pyknomorphic.


However, when pyknomorphic and leptomorphic variants exist of the same form, as often happens in the Mongoloid, they must be treated as equally progressive. This to some extent is alike to the Alpinid and Dinarid departures from the Cro-Magnid.

Look, the extreme Mongolid form is overspecialised, the advantage is only extreme cold and certain kinds of hard physical work on a low level, "better fat deposits" if there is constant hunger. First there was the extreme cold as the main factor, without it, its rather disadvantageous. But why did they still survive? Because, similar to extreme Alpinids, they showed just higher fertility rates and were more frugal.
The progressive form is associated with the adult body type, the infantilised secondary adaption to sedentary farmer life in a stable society and partly frugal life in tropical forests (reduction-infantilisation too) is something different. The real (extreme) boreal form of Tungids is overspecialisation to the cold climate.


Since the Capellid does not have a pyknomorphic variant, it must be judged differently. You can't equate the "progressive" of the Nordid with the "progressive" of the Dinarid, and leave the Alpinid as "degenerate." To do so is unscientific.

No, the Alpinid is not just degenerated - its a trend of Alpinisation with different local tendencies and more or less extreme forms. Only the extreme forms can be considered being rather negative.
You must see that the Cromagnid type for himself was not really pyknomorphic and the infantilisation is a later development in adaption to certain environmental and social conditions. Its the direction of this specialisation which makes something progressive or not and infantilisation is nothing progressive. By the way your are not right about leptomorphics never getting infantilised, it just needs a much longer time and usually, if naturally broader-MORE pyknomorphic than Capellids (read Cromagnid) forms are there, they are usually FASTER AT THIS POINT. Thats like wanting a dog breed which has a feature like being broad and small, having child like features for being less expensive, cute looking and not dangerous - you can breed that from practically every dog form, just look what came out of the Ur-dogs, but from certain specialisations you would need longer time, more generation to reach this or that goal, from other less - so you would take a type which might be not what you want, but closer to it. You could breed a greyhound stock into a pug too, but you will reach this aim faster by taking a rottweiler most likely. Finally its the same in nature, Cromagnids aren't naturally infantile/paedomorphic or reduced, but the paedomorphic path of reduction is closer to them than to Capellid forms, which means if there is a population which comes under pressure under bad conditions, much hunger, risky life in which you can't be biologically successful by taking risks, sedentary, stable farmer life, mainly grains, not enough proteins etc. and Cromagnoids will sooner be infantilised and breeding faster - Alpinisation, Baltisation - the Cromagnids lose during this process slowly (if it would go on and on) their basic adult and mesomorphic form, which would be no step into the right direction because this brings up new, not as generally adapted variants with associated psychological and physical characteristics...
This way of life in hungry, but stable sedentary farmer societies was not good for humans, as are the tropic forests usually not that good for human development. Out of that cannot come good new features but good ones are rather lost. Thats what evolutionary degeneration is about, to lose potential for survival in an one sided specialisation.

QuietWind
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 08:02 PM
korean celebrities. view with discretion, korean actresses have a notorious reputation among asians for doing cosmetic surgery, but generally it is believed that among asians (at least by Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese audiences) that Korea have the best looking people, analogous to how Sweden is to Europe.


as you can see from the photos, all are of the nordsinid variety, there are no tungid or mittelsinid phenotypes to be seen (agrippa?).
I'm not sure celebrities are the best people for examples. A couple of the girls above look no different than some Japanese. Compare with this Japanese actress for example: http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~a-yu/i/thumb/fukada_kyoko/img/fukada_kyoko4051.jpg

I could post pics of Japanese non-actresses with a similar look as well.

In real life, I've never confused a Japanese with a Korean. They have predominantly very different looks. These are examples of what I have seen to be typical in Korea. I've only been to South Korea though (Seoul), and seen Koreans on other Pacific islands. What type would you classify these to be of?

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 08:07 PM
I see simlar people to Japanese "Satsuma-type", which means they are mostly Palaemongolid, some Tungid, some Nordsinid.

In the literature its often said Japanese and Koreans are quite close, some even named the specific type out of mixture "Japanese-Korean" type. The main difference is the weaker Ainuid admixture in Koreans and a lower Palaemongolid percentage generally speaking. In North Korea Nordsinid is even stronger than in the South.

QuietWind
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 08:13 PM
I see simlar people to Japanese "Satsuma-type", which means they are mostly Palaemongolid, some Tungid, some Nordsinid.

In the literature its often said Japanese and Koreans are quite close, some even named the specific type out of mixture "Japanese-Korean" type. The main difference is the weaker Ainuid admixture in Koreans and a lower Palaemongolid percentage generally speaking. In North Korea Nordsinid is even stronger than in the South.
How old is the literature? Just curious, because do you think it could be possible that there was mixing during the Japanese occupation of Korea? I ask this only because when the Japanese occupied Guam, they placed the people in camps, killed the men, and raped the women. Most of the people in Guam are mixed with Japanese resulting from this, although it is not always very evident in their phenotype. Do you think similar events could have occured in Korea? I have not studied Korean history at all. The Chomorro people of Guam are a very interestingly mixed people both racially and culturally-- although that is an entirely new topic altogether.

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 08:42 PM
How old is the literature?

Most things I quote for this thread were written from the 40's-90's. What changed most in this time was the method, not the result, so Koreans are very close to Japanese, naturally, simply because many Japanese are descendents of Koreans - most parts of the Nordsinids and Tungids came through Korea - Palaemongolids party via Korea, partly from other regions.


They do have short legs, and it makes their torso appear enlongated relative to their legs. Their body tends to be broader across, but they are gracile. Look at them from the side and they are very thin. It's an odd look and difficult to describe. Is this what you are talking about though?

Thats a general Mongolid tendency, not just in them, but yes, you are on the right track. Whats typical for the infantilised (more gracile) and extremely boreal (more muscular) variants is, that they have, especially the later, not just short, but also very broad and plump legs and really short extremities, both legs and arms rather short (with the exception of protomorphic arctics which have longer arms). The more boreal types have more subcutaneous fat and muscles, so they look more compact from all sides, whereas the leptomorhic Jakunin type has oftentimes rather shorter legs (though usually slightly longer, not longer than Palaemongolids which are smaller, gracile, but have longer legs) too, but not so much muscles and fat, looking more linear. There was a great comparison of Jakunin and Satsuma-type in Eickstedts "Forschung am Menschen", unfortunately I dont have the picture now and they were naked anyway, I heard not all people like naked pictures here. :) (could use paint though ;) if I would have the pictures - I have a similar looking (to Satsuma) Indian pictured.

Rather short legs are the feature of both Tungids (more extreme) and Sinids (less extreme), whereas Palaemongolids show greater variation and are in the South (mostly because of Weddid admixture and tropical adaptation - away from the cold) relatively longer legs.

Agrippa
Thursday, August 11th, 2005, 07:24 PM
I splitted the thread and moved those parts which go in another direction, further and further away from the original topic, here:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=304611

varangian_guard
Thursday, August 11th, 2005, 08:12 PM
why is that northeast asia (manchuria, korean peninsula, kamchatka) was able to give rise to such greatly differing mongoloid phenotypes (tungid, nordsinid, and paleomongoloid)?

Agrippa
Thursday, August 11th, 2005, 08:37 PM
There are different theories about the Mongolid origins, but its most likely that they came up in the area of the Steppe, the border of the desert Gobi and from there came up to basic forms of Mongolids, the Arctic group (older: Sibirid, newer: Tungid) and the South Eastern one (older: Palaemongolid, newer: Sinid).

Whereas the Arctics, as an extreme cold type expanded North and West mostly, the SE expanded mostly South, but not just in a single wave, but various waves. The latest waves have partly stronger Mongolid features (f.e. epicanthus in higher frequency) and the Australoid-protomorphic element was completely bred out = Nord and Mittelsinid which pressed older variants further and further South, into areas which were still more Australoid (mostly Weddid and Negritid to be exact).
During this migration, and in the new areas, they adopted to new (tropical) conditions and various specific niches, the admixture of older Australoid elements brought even more variability.
This Southern groups which are adapted for various niches and partly mixed are Palaemongolids. In the centre of the racial dynamic of this SE Mongolids (area from Manchuria to Gobi), the older variants were, as I said, already bred out.

A great difference comes from the different way of life, because whereas the farmers of the North, in a rather dry region with European crops, more often war and dynamic changes, the Nordsinids are dominant, whereas in the Northermost rice farmer areas, Mittelsinids, more rounder ones established.
In Tibet we have Mittelsinids better adapted to again a harsher environment, more dynamic and different life style, not too forget higher height - Tibetid variant of the Sinids (with slight Europid admixture).
The Ainuids are a group of the East, which was out of the Mongolid circle, the Mongolids developed relatively late, and the Ainuids were just not involved in this dynamic process and later overrolled by the expanding Mongolids. That is the story of Japan and Korea, every next step of Mongolid evolution expanded, and some groups came always in this area. So the whole variation of Mongolids you could say, landed wave after wave in Japan. Always the next expanding wave pressed the other forward, the latest was the Nordsinid-Tungid one.
So East Asia is just great to see racial dynamic and selective processes, adaptation to different niches and the expansion of the various groups, mostly progressive expanding and pushing older groups (the big losers were Australoids) away...even today Mongolids are still expanding in Indonesia and other regions and pushing Australoids away.