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Combatent
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 07:24 PM
When the French Catholics slaughtered the French Protestants in 1572 tens of thousands of Frenchmen fled to neighboring Germany, becoming an integral part of the German nation.

The city of Berlin had at the time 25000 inhabitants and accepted 25000 Frenchmen in their midst, sparking one of the more fabulous cultural revolutions in European history.

Most German sausage making originates with the Huegenots, as does the fine leather industry in Offenbach.

In WWI the greatest submarine commander was a German of French extraction by the name of LePerrier and in WWII, air aces Lt. Marseille, General Galland and many others as well.

One of the greatest aircraft designers in history was the German Claude Dornier, also of Huegenot extraction.

What about the NS leader Walter Darré? Or about the politician Oskar LaFontaine?

The racial influence of the French is evident in the traits of many German people.

Nordgau
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 09:01 PM
When the French Catholics slaughtered the French Protestants in 1572 tens of thousands of Frenchmen fled to neighboring Germany, becoming an integral part of the German nation. The city of Berlin had at the time 25000 inhabitants and accepted 25000 Frenchmen in their midst, sparking one of the more fabulous cultural revolutions in European history.

Actually, the large migration waves of French Huguenots to Germany and elsewhere took place more than 100 years after the Saint Bartholomew's Night massacre of 1572, that was after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685 (Edict of Potsdam by the Great Electoral Prince Frederick William then in the same year), And it were not more than ca. 18,000-20,000 Huguenots who came to whole Brandenburg-Prussia, some 6,000-8,000 among them to Berlin (of ca. 44,000 to whole Germany).

QuietWind
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 09:06 PM
I know very very little about History-- it is my absolute weakest subject. What parts of Germany did the French generally settle in? Could this settling explain, in part, why many Southern German Alpines are phenotypically more similar to French Alpinids rather than more Northern or Eastern Alpinid types? :shrug



Edit: Well Nordgau posted same time as me and answer the question of where they settled.:)

Nordgau
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 09:42 PM
I know very very little about History-- it is my absolute weakest subject. What parts of Germany did the French generally settle in? Could this settling explain, in part, why many Southern German Alpines are phenotypically more similar to French Alpinids rather than more Northern or Eastern Alpinid types? :shrug

Here's a good map on the migrations of the Huguenots, and some numbers for certain German territories. (Austria is not included, which automatically rings alarm bells of the suspicion of an ahistorical exclusion of Austria from Germany, but the map indicates that in the case of the immigrations of Huguenots, Catholic Austria anyway didn't seem to play a role--after all, e.g. Bavaria is also not included.)

I doubt that the influence was that strong that the racial make-up of whole large regions was reshaped radically, rather than giving here and there a certain background tone, with punctual centres of concentration. One also must think as supposition of what racial elements the Huguenots actually were made up in detail, where of course one must first take a closer look to regions from where they came from. An "All French are Alpinid" postulate as basic working hypothesis would be probably a bit too easy here. :D And important with respect to the Huguenot question is: One must consider that regarding their population-biological status, they largely formed élite strata in France.

I had my hands on an anthropological doctoral thesis once, published in an anthropological magazine in the 30s, where the current population of a small Hessian town, I think, where Huguenots settled in a large number, was compared to the neighbouring area and to the current population of the French region of origin. The--not surprising--result was something like that to a certain noticeable degree, the population still detaches itself from the surrounding, and also a certain connection to the French region of origin is visible, though of course that all only anymore in a rather blurred way.

http://www.familie-loyal.de/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Archiv_Loyal/Karten/Landkarte-Hugenotten_001.jpg

From the website of the Deutsche Hugenotten-Gesellschaft e. V.:


Nach Deutschland kamen ca. 44.000 Hugenotten.
Davon gingen nach:
Brandenburg-Preußen etwa 20.000
Hessen-Kassel etwa 3.800
Rhein-Main-Gebiet etwa 3.400
Kurpfalz mit Zweibrücken etwa 3.400
Franken etwa 3.200
Württemberg etwa 3.000
Hansestädte etwa 1.500
Niedersachsen etwa 1.500

Andere zogen nach Baden-Durlach, Kursachsen (Leipzig und Dresden), in das Saarland (Ludweiler im Warndt), nach Thüringen, Mecklenburg, Anhalt, Lippe-Detmold, Danzig, Neuwied, Waldeck, ins Bergische Land usw.

QuietWind
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 09:52 PM
Thank you for answering my questions. :)

I wasn't meaning to imply that all French were Alpinid. I just wondered if there could be a connection. You did a good job of exaplining it all. Sometimes I ask silly questions. ;)

Theobald
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Very good posts Nordgau. :thumbup

When Louis XIV revocated the Edict of Nantes in 1685 there were about 1,2 million Huguenots in France; 1 million decided to convert and about 200,000 decided to emigrate : 70,000 to the Netherlands (but some then emigrated to South Africa), 60,000 to England, 22,000 to Switzerland, 10,000 to the USA (South Carolina) and 30,000 to Germany; the others coming to Scandinavia or various other countries.

Since noblemen generally converted to Catholicism (they wanted to keep their domains and castels) Protestant emigrants were mostly trademen, expert artisans, craftsmen, lawyers or doctors. In short : French middle-class. They were mostly from Paris, Poitou (West), Normandy or South-Western France (Cévennes). Only Alsatian Protestants were not concerned by the Revocation because Louis XIV had kept special Alsatian religious status after the annexation in 1648 - which explains why Protestantism is still important in Alsace.

So they generally came to Frankfurt - and then took refuge in Hesse-Kassel, Rhenan area, Brandenburg-Prussia, Franconia and the Palatine Electorate.
Both religious solidarity and economic interests (some areas were depopulated after Thirty Years War) explain why German states allowed these Huguenots to settle there.

Ten days after Louis XIV's decision the Great Electoral Prince Frederick William issued the Edict of Potsdam and invited the "Evangelist-Reformed of French Nation" to settle in his lands. By this Edict the new settlers received among other privileges: exemption from taxes for the first ten years, land assignments and building material for houses and agricultural buildings, freedom of military service and bondage for "all times", the rifht to own jurisdiction for controversies within the colony, an own minister and room for the service and freedom of trade.
About 20,000 French accepted his invitation and then mostly settled in Potsdam, Berlin and in Uckermark. I know they created several colonies - including "Strasburg". In 1710 25% of the Berliners were French - and in 1700 when the Berlin Academy of Sciences was created two thirds of its members were French. Until the end of the 17th century Prussian press was also in French.

In Hesse-Kassel about 3,500 Huguenots took refuge, especially in the city of Kassel and North of this town. They also founded Bad Karlshafen - where the Landgrave Karl wanted them to design and build this town as a showplace of his wealth and power.
In Franconia, they were invited by the Margrave Christian Ernst and caused an important economic growth. Erlangen - also known as the "Huguenot City" - was also mostly founded by the Huguenots, who turned an agricultural society into a commercial centre whose importance extended beyond the local region.
In several towns French Protestant parishes were created (Hamburg, Celle, Hanover, Hameln, Leipzig, Stuttgart, ...). Several tens of manufactures were created by the French where they settled.

These Huguenots generally felt French until the third or fourth generation and then assimilated into German society. Indeed in 1790 the French government allowed the Huguenots to come to France but only a few did. Moreover - Huguenots who emigrated to Brandeburg-Prussia were King of France's subjects until 1709 when the King of Prussia Frederick I made them his own subjects.

Also in 1870-71 21 German generals - out of 144 - had a French name. ;)


The racial influence of the French is evident in the traits of many German people.
If there are important similarities between the Northern French and the Southern/Western Germans, this is rather because of a similar/close ethno-genesis (Celts, Franks) than because of 30,000 Huguenots.
I once read a study about French Huguenots in Germany - and according to it nowadays about 300,000 Germans are of French Huguenot descent.

Nordgau
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 10:05 AM
About 20,000 French accepted his invitation and then mostly settled in Potsdam, Berlin and in Uckermark. I know they created several colonies - including "Strasburg".

There arrived Huguenot families in Strasburg, but I want to add that, if someone might assume that, the town itself and its name is not a creation of that time and of the Huguenots which was derived from Straßburg in Alsace. Strasburg in Uckermark is an urban German foundation of the 13th century, and the name was first mentioned in 1267, meaning "castle at the streets" (as such of course having the same meaning like the name of Straßburg in Alsace, I think).

Todesritter
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 11:20 AM
....

Also in 1870-71 21 German generals - out of 144 - had a French name. ;)


If there are important similarities between the Northern French and the Southern/Western Germans, this is rather because of a similar/close ethno-genesis (Celts, Franks) than because of 30,000 Huguenots.
I once read a study about French Huguenots in Germany - and according to it nowadays about 300,000 Germans are of French Huguenot descent.
Yes, very much so. 30,000 Huguenots do not out-weigh the influence millions of Iron-Age Franks, and Bronze-Age Celts on the gene pool on both sides of the current legal boundary between France and Germany.

Theobald
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 01:27 PM
There arrived Huguenot families in Strasburg, but I want to add that, if someone might assume that, the town itself and its name is not a creation of that time and of the Huguenots which was derived from Straßburg in Alsace. Strasburg in Uckermark is an urban German foundation of the 13th century, and the name was first mentioned in 1267, meaning "castle at the streets" (as such of course having the same meaning like the name of Straßburg in Alsace, I think).
Indeed, I was wrong about Strasburg but it seems that the city was almost totally depopulated and devastated when the Huguenots arrived :


Strasburg is located in the northwest corner of the Uckermark, northwest of Prenzlau and west of Pasewalk. The Uckermark was bordered by Mecklenburg and Pommerania. Due to the course of history, borders changed again and again. In the timeframe of this report, from 1685 until 1870, Strasburg belonged to Brandenburg and later to Prussia.



Strasburg and the surrounding area had been devastated and depopulated by the 30-year war (1618-1648) and the plague. The town was recovering slowly and more than once hindered in development by fires. You can read this history of Strasburg in the "Ortslexikon Uckermark" (by Liselotte Enders) :




1625 The town had 217 fireplaces (that means about 2,000-2,500 inhabitants)

1636 Town plundered by the Swedes, 1638 again; loss of about 1,500 inhabitants

1641 Only 9 town burghers (that means about 150-200 inhabitants, each "burgher" had a family and also some families living in Strasburg without citizen rights)

1645 Out of 182 houses only 39 were inhabited, 66 were deserted, 15 deserted totally ruined, 62 empty places (no trace of a house left);

1653 Great fire

1680 Town fire

1681 Strasburg burnt down except of 7 huts and 5 old houses, including town hall, church and bells




Again and again the inhabitants had to start over and rebuild their town.



1691 The "Ortslexikon" announces the settlement of 74 refugee families, among them tobacco planters



The number of settlers varies in the different sources from 55 families to 374 people.




The refugees realized that they couldn't stay long in Hofgeismar and since they learned that Friedrich III of Brandenburg - as before his father - was taking good care of them, two well respected members, the merchants Pierre Letienne und Jean Jaques Tavernier went to look in Brandenburg countries for a suitable settling place. They came to the fertile but 1674 by the Swedes badly devastated Uckermark and decided to choose the town Strasburg for their settlement. ...They went to Cleve, where Friedrich III was residing at that time and received at Jan. 5, 1691 a privilege for 55 families (to found a colony). The original is still kept in a tin box in the church archive of Strasburg (in 1881). They didn't get as many rights as the colony of Magdeburg, but the same as the one in Prenzlau.



Ten years freedom of taxes, an own judge, a kind of freedom of business, free entrance to the craftsmen guilds, freedom of customs for tobacco raised in the next ten years - but most of all the grant of more than 60 Hufen*) of acres for the - even for that time very low - price of 4.000 Thaler laid the basic for a flourishing colony.



For church house they got a part of the town hall, they got permission to bring the preacher Clement with them (who never came, first pastor was Henri de Baudan). The pastor got a yearly salary of 150 Thaler and free accommodation in the town hall above the church room, a lecteur et chantre (teacher and precentor)got got a yearly salary of 50 Thaler. The first French judge of Strasburg Dalencon also got 150 Thaler a year and free housing.



It seems that the Huguenots in Strasburg were mostly from Wallonia though.



More informations about the Huguenots in Uckermark there : http://www.hugenotten-uckermark.de/



PS : The name of Strasbourg in Alsace derives from the Latin "Strateburgum" ("City of roadways").

Nordgau
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 06:34 PM
@Elsasser: I know that the Huguenots were numerous in Strasburg and made up probably more then half of the population there, I only wanted to point out that the the foundation and the name of Strasburg doesn't originate from the Huguenots.


PS : The name of Strasbourg in Alsace derives from the Latin "Strateburgum" ("City of roadways").

The name of the Roman city on the place of Straßburg in antiquity was, as is well-known, Argentoratum. "Straßburg", in its early forms, goes back to the settlement of the Germanics in that area, it is the name the Germanics gave the place. Of course the name appears first in Latin texts, and may in slightly Latinized forms, since the folk tongues prevailed as writing languages not until later periods.

The Germanic word for "street" or "road" (modern German: Straße) certainly is a loan-word they adopted from Latin, but it was assimilated into the Germanic language(s) already in late antiquity, before the Völkerwanderung, through cultural-lingual radiation (mostly technical-economical words) from the Roman sphere. "Burg" (covers meanings from "castle" to "borough" or "town" [towns which were connected with a castle]) is Germanic.


Le début de l’histoire médiévale de la ville peut être fixé au milieu du Ve siècle. A ce moment se place la dernière grande invasion, celle des Huns qui, selon la tradition vraisemblable, détruisirent Strasbourg une fois de plus. C’est aussi vers cette époque que prend fin l’immigration des Alamans en Alsace. Leur installation sur le territoire de la ville, poursuivie depuis un siècle, entraîna la changement progressif de son nom d’Argentoratum en Strassburg. La forme la plus ancienne du nouveau nom se trouve dans la Notitia Dignitatum, que l’on date du début du Ve siècle: Strateburgo et Stratisburgo. Grégoire de Tours, à la fin du VIe siècle, écrit Stradeburg et Stratiburg. La forme définitive, Strasburg, ne s’imposa qu’au IXe siècle. Le sens de ce nom germanique est claire; place forte (Burg) de la route (strata), celle qui partait de l’enceinte et gagnait par la Grand’Rue et la rue du Faubourg National Kœnigshoffen, où elle bifurquait soit vers le Sud, le long de l’Ill, soit vers l’Ouest, en direction de Marlenheim et de Saverne. C’est encore ce sens de «ville de la route» que donne Ermold le Noir au IXe siècle, mais plus tard on admit qu’il signifiait «ville des routes». Le nom latin subsista d’ailleurs à travers tout le moyen âge dans les textes littéraires et les chartes sous des formes diverses, Argenterata, Argentaria. A partir du Xe siècle prévalut la forme Argentina, par suite d’une fausse étymologie faisant de Strasbourg la «ville d‘argent».

(Philippe Dollinger: Livre I: Origines et essor de la ville épiscopale, in: Histoire de Strasbourg des origines à nos jours, vol. II: Strasbourg des grandes invasions au XVe siècle, Straßburg 1981, p. 2-36)

Theobald
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 07:28 PM
@Elsasser: I know that the Huguenots were numerous in Strasburg and made up probably more then half of the population there, I only wanted to point out that the the foundation and the name of Strasburg doesn't originate from the Huguenots.
That's what I confirmed in my previous post, that Strasburg in Uckermark's foundation had nothing to do with the Huguenots. :shrug


The name of the Roman city on the place of Straßburg in antiquity was, as is well-known, Argentoratum. "Straßburg", in its early forms, goes back to the settlement of the Germanics in that area, it is the name the Germanics gave the place. Of course the name appears first in Latin texts, and may in slightly Latinized forms, since the folk tongues prevailed as writing languages not until later periods.
Your extract is interesting because I have another book about Alsatian history stating that Strasbourg (called in Roman times "Argentoratum" indeed) was destroyed by the Huns in the 5th century and then rebuilt and called "Strateburgum" by the Romans (and not by the Alamans), which means "city of roadways" in Latin, and that this name was then slightly germanized into "Strassburg".
But it is likely that the Latin dialect spoken in North-Eastern France was already heavily influenced by Germanic languages and that Germanic words had been adopted into it ("Burg" => "Burgum" ?).
So you speak French ? ;)

Nordgau
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 09:07 PM
Your extract is interesting because I have another book about Alsatian history stating that Strasbourg (called in Roman times "Argentoratum" indeed) was destroyed by the Huns in the 5th century and then rebuilt and called "Strateburgum" by the Romans (and not by the Alamans), which means "city of roadways" in Latin, and that this name was then slightly germanized into "Strassburg".
But it is likely that the Latin dialect spoken in North-Eastern France was already heavily influenced by Germanic languages and that Germanic words had been adopted into it ("Burg" => "Burgum" ?).

I'm not too sure about the exact circumstances and details in the moment, but I believe it was rather under the rule of the Franks than of the Romans that the city was rebuilt, after it had been destroyed by the Huns.

I think there existed within Latin a loan-word burgus for "citadel", which was influenced by, and maybe even had over some edges its origin in, Germanic. I think that word was used rather quite rarely, compared to the usual expressions castra, urbs, villa etc.

The -burg toponyms in Alsace area normally go back to the Germanic settlement and occupation of the country, to Alemannians and Franks, during the Völkerwanderung, and the name of Straßburg falls in no way out of the frame here. (By the way, the change from t to s in the city's name is a normal development of the later Old High German sound-shift.) I haven't read until now anything different than that the city's name was of Germanic origin ... :shrug

Here's something more I found:


L’Armée Romaine abandonne définitivement Argentoratum (Strasbourg) en 451, à l’occasion de son incendie par Attila le hun. Sidoine Appollinaire, évêque de Clermont, note en 456 que les alamans occupent les deux rives du Rhin « soit comme indigènes soit comme vainqueurs ». Grégoire de Tour est le premier à mentionner le nom de Strasbourg lorsqu’il écrit vers 580 : « La ville d’Argentorat maintenant appelée Strateburg » . Cette phrase semble indiquer un changement de nom relativement récent et on peut supposer que l’usage du nouveau nom s’imposa progressivement vers le milieu du VIe siècle, à l’époque où les francs prenaient possession du pays. En ce qui concerne le nom d’Alsace, il apparaît pour la première fois en 625 lorsque le chroniqueur Frédégaire relatant des faits des années 610 et 613, parle respectivement d’alsaciones pour les habitants, et d’Alesacius pour le pays entre Rhin et Vosges. Nul doute que ce nom fut utilisé dès la fin du 6e siècle.
[Source] (http://bertrandjost.chez.tiscali.fr/Francais/Hohatzenheim/atzenheim-typo-txt.htm)


So you speak French ? ;)

I can read it better than speak it. :P