PDA

View Full Version : @Pagans, Wiccas, and other non Christians



Borivoj
Saturday, August 9th, 2003, 02:53 AM
I have a question concerning your various gods and how you worship them. Do you actually believe that when it thunders Thorburn is angry? Say if you wanted to become pregnant or have children, would you pray to a fertility goddess? I wondering if you believed in the ideals of the gods rather than the literal powers of them, such as control over rain, thunder, war, etc.? I'll excuse my ignorance in advance.

Sigrun Christianson
Saturday, August 9th, 2003, 12:58 PM
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I feel pretty confident in writing that many people like me, who are basically agnostic but have a cultural appreciation for the Myths and Lores, see them as fables - fictional stories, born of authentic but less fantastic circumstances, meant to teach a lesson or moral.

Borivoj
Sunday, August 10th, 2003, 12:00 AM
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I feel pretty confident in writing that many people like me, who are basically agnostic but have a cultural appreciation for the Myths and Lores, see them as fables - fictional stories, born of authentic but less fantastic circumstances, meant to teach a lesson or moral.

That mentality is very similar to mine, I have a deep appreciation of legends etc. I wondered if people actually believed in them literally, like in the past.

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Sunday, August 10th, 2003, 12:07 AM
To some it up and put it simply, with heathenism it is more about ancestor worship than the worship of "gods". Through following your folk's ancient religion you are therefore worshipping your ancestors and your people! So it is quite deeper then just enjoying cultural folk tales. But to everyone it is something else as well, spirituality is something that is always molded to the individual.

Allenson
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 04:32 PM
I can't say that I literally believe in the goddesses, gods and other beings of immortal fiber....although I can't say that I don't believe in them either. For me, Heathendom is as Sigrun said, an appreciation of the old lores, myths, and ways and also as Vanessa said, a worship of and connection with the Ancestors and our unbroken chain that binds us. To me, heathendom is our organic mythos and spirituality that was not born in some far of desert in the East but instead in the fields and woods in our native clime and land. It is inside us at an organic level and is remembered in our conscious and unconscious genetically. It is imprinted on our folk soul and 1500-2000 years of Christian brainwashing (sorry Milesian!) can't erase what has been inside us for 10,000 years of more.

While I may not necessarily believe in a red-bearded Thunor wielding his hammer in the sky every time I hear thunder, I do fully see and hear and taste and feel the forces and powers of Nature....be it thunder, rain, snow, mountians, rivers, plains, or any other natural element. And, the goddesses and gods are sort of personifications of these forces.

From our house, we have a wide open view to the east overlooking a river valley and a mountain....the sun rises right over the mountain and every morning I am greeted by Eoster and I thank her for her visit..... :)

Milesian
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 04:52 PM
It is imprinted on our folk soul and 1500-2000 years of Christian brainwashing (sorry Milesian!)

You will be when the Inquisition comes knocking at your door! :jeer

Saoirse
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 05:50 PM
Neton With Us!

Götterschicksal
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 07:59 PM
I am closest with Vanessa's explaination.

Phlegethon
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 12:07 PM
You will be when the Inquisition comes knocking at your door! :jeer

Yep. Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. ;)

Milesian
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 01:16 PM
Yep. Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. ;)

Exactly :D

Allenson
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 01:33 PM
You will be when the Inquisition comes knocking at your door! :jeer
Bring 'em on, I say. I just sharpened my sword. :)

Tryggvi
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 02:28 AM
Say if you wanted to become pregnant or have children, would you pray to a fertility goddess? Yes, if you pray to Freya, your wife will give birth to a Germanic child, if you pray to Jesus, you'll get a Jew. :eking

PS. If a piglet hides under the bed at the time of conception, the child will be a redhead. Old Irish wisdom. :)

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 03:34 AM
Yes, if you pray to Freya, your wife will give birth to a Germanic child, if you pray to Jesus, you'll get a Jew. :eking

PS. If a piglet hides under the bed at the time of conception, the child will be a redhead. Old Irish wisdom. :)

hahahahaha! You never know what could happen when you pray to Jesus, that crazy guy! :silly

And as for the piglet thing...the idea of one being under my bed during that kind of time seems kind of strange and creepy. But since there are so many redheads in Ireland I guess they are used to it :lol

Saoirse
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 03:56 AM
Redhead women *drools*

Gladstone
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 07:06 PM
To some it up and put it simply, with heathenism it is more about ancestor worship than the worship of "gods".


The movie "Gladiators" had a touch of that. Maximus had the figurines of his parents which he carried with him and would on occasion take out and "commune" with. He had a small altar (designed after a temple) that he would place the figurines in when he would do this. Lit candles would be present.

"Gladiators" is a very fine and well done film. Though the Senate in reality did not regain its power as the script indicated, the film does give one a taste of the "idea", (the glory, the beauty, and yes, the brutality), that was Rome and her people.

Speaking of very fine, Commodus's sister as portrayed certainly was! :inlove

Gladstone

Tryggvi
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 10:50 AM
And as for the piglet thing...the idea of one being under my bed during that kind of time seems kind of strange and creepy. But since there are so many redheads in Ireland I guess they are used to it I wonder what happens, if your dog hides under the bed. :think

Utgard-Loki
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 02:48 PM
I have a question concerning your various gods and how you worship them. Do you actually believe that when it thunders Thorburn is angry? Say if you wanted to become pregnant or have children, would you pray to a fertility goddess? I wondering if you believed in the ideals of the gods rather than the literal powers of them, such as control over rain, thunder, war, etc.? I'll excuse my ignorance in advance.

----------------------

I believe by myself that the Idea of "one Potential" the " Word at the
Begining " ... is right. This would mean the Idea of one God is not
wrong, but the different Aspects of God can be better worshipped
as different Personalitys.

Those Personalitys are resembeling the Human Archetyps ( Warrior:
Tyr - Mars ... ,Sexuality - Mother :Freya - Maria... ,Mage - Leader : Odin -
Zeus - Jupiter , and so on ).

Those Archetyps differ betwen different Races and resemble the
cultural, Natural and Genetic Background of the People. Because
God is in his the Creation you can of course see Parts of his
Personalitys in each Natural Thing.

Would you Pray to a fertility Godess ???

Perhaps i would Drink, offer for her,
call her Name, do some erotic Painting,
or simply have SXX with my Girlfriend.
Everything that collabortes with the
Subject would be fine.

If you drink to Freya for example you honor
the Things( in you ) she stands for .

Best regards

your Utgard-Loki

Borivoj
Thursday, August 14th, 2003, 06:56 PM
----------------------

Those Personalitys are resembeling the Human Archetyps ( Warrior:
Tyr - Mars ... ,Sexuality - Mother :Freya - Maria... ,Mage - Leader : Odin -
Zeus - Jupiter , and so on ).

Those Archetyps differ betwen different Races and resemble the
cultural, Natural and Genetic Background of the People. Because
God is in his the Creation you can of course see Parts of his
Personalitys in each Natural Thing.



I have though noticed that before too, that in many multi god religions, if one combined the characteristics of the gods, the result of this would result in the creation of a "supreme God" that encompasses the qualities of the many lesser gods.

Evolved
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 10:13 AM
Think about ancestor "worship": do you want 100 years or so later your descendants worshipping you? :bow

Phlegethon
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 10:28 AM
They better do that during my lifetime already. ;)

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Think about ancestor "worship": do you want 100 years or so later your descendants worshipping you? :bow

I don't know if that was meant negatively, but it doesn't work that way LOL It is the spirit of your ancestors! Not to dwell on one particular...unless of course, you had some evidence that you are the descendent of a known figure in history :knight Think back to all the perils of the world, how your ancestors survived to pass on their line and now you are here. Woohoo! Now, many people don't even care to have children and continue this. It is not just your ancestors, but the fact that one day you will be an ancestor. Heathenism is a fitting philosophy for the people of a dying race. So yes, I hope that one day my descendants will think the same way that I do, and that they will be worshipping "me" for caring at all. :nod The idea that my descendants wouldn't feel the same way just makes everything seem all the more hopeless.

and all this from some one who does not claim to be totally heathen ;) haha

Saoirse
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 07:13 AM
Wotanism shall rise.

Milesian
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 08:54 AM
If your interested in all things Irish, shouldn't you be more interested in the Irish pantheon rather than the Germanic?

Phlegethon
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 09:05 AM
Exactly. They have the God of malt whiskey and the God of the Potato. ;)

Milesian
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 01:04 PM
There you see, Phlegethon understands ;)

Saoirse
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 03:46 PM
So, I first chose the name Wotanism over Odinism. First because W.O.T.A.N. makes a perfect acronym for Will Of The Aryan Nation. Secondly because he was called Wotan on the European continent and only called Odin in Scandinavia. Therefore Wotan appeals to the genetic memory of more of our ancestors. -- Lane.

Moody
Wednesday, August 20th, 2003, 07:01 PM
The question should be; 'Do you believe in your gods enough for you to die for them?'

Phlegethon
Wednesday, August 20th, 2003, 08:41 PM
The question should be; 'Do you believe in your gods enough for you to die for them?'


What is wrong with living for them first?

Moody
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 05:16 PM
Those who want to live at any cost [and so by implication will abandon their beliefs when faced with punsihment or death] are no competition for those who are willing to die for their beliefs.

And that is the TEST.

If your beliefs are merely cultural/easthetic/intellectual then they are not worth a light when it comes to battle.
Only if you are willing to die for the things that make your life worth living can you truly call yourself a person of substance.
Ref., The Turner Diaries.

Milesian
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 05:25 PM
I would have to agree with that.
As a Christian, I am called to give up everything for the Lord, even my own life if it is asked of me.

:hveğrungur:
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 01:01 PM
If your interested in all things Irish, shouldn't you be more interested in the Irish pantheon rather than the Germanic?
When you look at most european pagan/heathen religions and their gods, wether they be celtic, norse, slavic, greek or what have you. You can allways see the same gods with the same qualitys, only different names. I believe all of europe, with the pre christian pagan religion worshiped the same gods, just under different names due to location. No other religions are so close together and share such a common bond.

Milesian
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 01:39 PM
When you look at most european pagan/heathen religions and their gods, wether they be celtic, norse, slavic, greek or what have you. You can allways see the same gods with the same qualitys, only different names. I believe all of europe, with the pre christian pagan religion worshiped the same gods, just under different names due to location. No other religions are so close together and share such a common bond.

It's a nice idea, but unfortunately it is speculation at best.
The problem with Syncretism is that people can (and do) claim that every religion in the world can be compared to each other and compared as similar with only changes to detail.

In Europe you might have a couple of dieties who compare which might suggest a remnant from a pre-IndoEuropean pantheon. But we must be careful not to get overenthusiastic and try to create similarities where there are none.
For instance I could say that the Irish Morrigan compares to the Norse Valkeries because they are both female mythological characters associated with battle. In reality though they don't compare, they are quite distinct from each other. But that's the problem if you have no defined borders, then you can logically create a link between just about any religion in the world

:hveğrungur:
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 01:45 PM
So things like Zuess and His lighting bolts dont have anything in common with Odin and his spear gungir? Mount Olympus and Valhalla is just a coincidence? Hercules and Thorburn, both sons of the main gods from the greek and norse pantheons, powerfull gods of the common man who spent a lot of time on the respected earth with the humans. No hostility here of course, these are just some examples of what im talking about.

Milesian
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 02:08 PM
No hostilty taken :)

No, I didn't rule out that possibility. As I mentioned above there could be some IE remnant linking them.

Most pantheistic religions in the world tend to have a main god (Odin or Zeus in these cases).
Also, many pagan religions gave attributes to these dieties to explain natural phenomenon such as the weather as well.

By the same token I can say that Christianity, Hindusim and Irish Pagan beliefs are all the same, as the Christian Trinity is the same as many Irish deities who also existed as a trinity, as does the Hindu diety - Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 06:47 PM
So, I first chose the name Wotanism over Odinism. First because W.O.T.A.N. makes a perfect acronym for Will Of The Aryan Nation. Secondly because he was called Wotan on the European continent and only called Odin in Scandinavia. Therefore Wotan appeals to the genetic memory of more of our ancestors. -- Lane.

Didnt Alfred Rosenberg state in his Mythus that "Wotan is dead"?

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 06:52 PM
For instance I could say that the Irish Morrigan compares to the Norse Valkeries because they are both female mythological characters associated with battle. In reality though they don't compare, they are quite distinct from each other. But that's the problem if you have no defined borders, then you can logically create a link between just about any religion in the world

Indeed.....this is an argument I was planning on using at TNP. Much of the similarities between the Indo-European faiths are largely general....theres no evidence for any real direct link. In fact as Fletcher wrote, the pagan religions of Europe were so diverse that in the end that actually caused their downfall in the face of a united and disciplined Christian faith.

Its the same when trying to claim similarities between Christianity and the Mystery religions. Both Christ and Mithras were born of virgins but in different ways. Mary was pretty much impregnated with the spirit of God, while Mithras was born of a rock. Well actually thats the Romanized version we're familar with. The original Persian story states that Mithra's mother swam in a lake filled with 400 year old sperm and got impregnated that way. :| Getting past the oddity of such a story, its clear there are significant differences between Christ's virgin birth and Mithra's.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 07:42 PM
When you look at most european pagan/heathen religions and their gods, wether they be celtic, norse, slavic, greek or what have you. You can allways see the same gods with the same qualitys, only different names. I believe all of europe, with the pre christian pagan religion worshiped the same gods, just under different names due to location. No other religions are so close together and share such a common bond.

This is quite true in northern Europe, with shamanic origins, but Classical mythology has a West Asian source (if you compare Theogony to Enuma Elish for example).

Phlegethon
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 08:08 PM
My demiurge can beat up your demiurge. ;)

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 08:38 PM
My demiurge can beat up your demiurge. ;)

As long as your demiurge isnt the Cosmocreator.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 08:43 PM
My demiurge can beat up your demiurge. ;)


Treat a Demiurg like the Monarch, dont get involved, do your work and duties and remain innerly free. ;-)

Phlegethon
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Actually I am planning to sue my demiurge for reparations in an American court. This world stinks.

Milesian
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 04:29 PM
I'm suing Odin for inciting violence against my people in the 8th century :P