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View Full Version : Nappy hair among some Irish, Scots.



Imperator X
Friday, August 5th, 2005, 04:14 AM
I have an inquiry to our resident physical anthropologists. I have noticed that some Gaelic-Americans I know have nappy, frizzy hair. My mom's friend who is a Scottish American would not pass the hair tests used in South Afrika to determine race. (If she wanted to be recognized as pure Caucasoid.)

I have read something someplace that said that there could be found traces of Moorish admixture in some of the Irish. I am quite a bit skeptical of this, but has anyone heard that before?

My mom's friend also married an Italian and one of her daughters was asked by a black guy if she was mulatto. I thought maybe that could be attributed to the S. Italian, but didn't say anything.

Anyhow, I've found other Irish and Scots-Americans who have nappy hair even though it may be red or light brown.

Does anyone know what to attribute this to?

Glenlivet
Friday, August 5th, 2005, 09:56 AM
I am not sure of frizzy hair.

But curly hair is probably also Cro-Magnoid - Palaeo-Atlantid or Irish Brünn. It is often associated with rufosity. Humidity can make hair curlier. That is my observation. Coon wrote that in Ireland, the occurrance of prognathism and some of the curly hair can be ascribed to "Mediterranean" types. Coon wrote that curly hair is quite common in western Ireland and in Wales, and that it is also frequent in the whole of North Africa and in the western Mediterranean shorelands of Europe. Eastern Europe is predominantly straight-haired.

Curly hair in Britain can be of Litoroid origin. Read what Coon wrote about Cornwall.

Rhydderch
Friday, August 5th, 2005, 12:19 PM
Yes, I've also noticed that very curly hair is common among the Irish and western British. I've mentioned on other threads that it tends to be associated with a particular Mediterranid type; they have hooked noses and prominent (though rather shallow) chins and a somewhat broad forehead. They are also common in North Africa and Southern Spain.

The Litoroid type has curly hair of a sort, but I would say it's almost (perhaps completely) in the wavy category, in contrast to the afore-mentioned type, whose hair borders on frizzy.

QuietWind
Friday, August 5th, 2005, 02:41 PM
You all make curly hair sound like a such a negative thing. :lol

My hair is extremely curly. If I brush it, it frizzes something awful. I usually brush the tangles out (while it is wet), then only use a "beach comb" on it after that. This keeps the friz out. I also use various prodects on my hair. I used to use "frizz-ease" and now I use "Infusium." Infusium is basically like a spray in conditioner. The majority of the time I actually pull my hair back into a tight bun while it is wet just so I don't have to mess with it. When I was young, black ladies would come up to my mom and say, "This is the surliest hair I have ever seen on a white girl." People would always ask if it was permed. Since I usually pull it up to not mess with it, when I do wear it down, I still get extreme reactions from people about it. Since having kids, my hair has thinned and relaxed tremendously on its own. My ancestry is not predominantly "Irish" nor "British." I only have 1/16 of each and my rest is German. My German ancestors are the ones with the curls. ;)

Two pics of me. One at age approx. 12 or so-- so no making fun of me. You can see the extent of the curls. (And glenlivet is correct about humidity making hair curlier, also frizzier.) The second pic is me now-- after having two kids-- and my hair has relaxed a lot.

Berserkin_Dwarf
Monday, August 8th, 2005, 10:53 PM
I am french canadien and scotch irish and I have wicked thick but soft curls. My nose is not pointy but not spread across my face. yeah I get the mulatto crap too....bd

Milesian
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 01:27 AM
I have read something someplace that said that there could be found traces of Moorish admixture in some of the Irish. I am quite a bit skeptical of this, but has anyone heard that before?


:D

Willigut
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 05:25 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=37542&stc=1

Appalachian
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 07:06 PM
I have read something someplace that said that there could be found traces of Moorish admixture in some of the Irish. I am quite a bit skeptical of this, but has anyone heard that before?

Traces of the shipwrecked sailors of the Spanish Armada?

Appalachian
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 07:10 PM
I am not sure of frizzy hair.

But curly hair is probably also Cro-Magnoid - Palaeo-Atlantid or Irish Brünn. It is often associated with rufosity. Humidity can make hair curlier. That is my observation. Coon wrote that in Ireland, the occurrance of prognathism and some of the curly hair can be ascribed to "Mediterranean" types.

My hair is certainly not frizzy. In fact, it is very fine and is reddish with what the hairdresser described as "lots of gold in it." When it is long, though, it curls into ringlets.

I've been routinely classified as Bruenn.

Imperator X
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Traces of the shipwrecked sailors of the Spanish Armada?Yeah, that thought came accross my mind as well. Not surprising considering the Irish and Spanish are both Catholic and throughout history have not cared for the English to say the least.

Milesian, what is this :D supposed to convey (in reference to my inquiry?)

Perhaps there's more to Afro-Celt sound system than meets the eye? :P J/K.

There was an article on here a while ago about a Gaelic speaking Scotsman who shipwrecked and beached in North Africa. The native tribe didn't kill him like they usually killed all foreigners because they recognized his language as being related to their own. Food for thought.

Berserkin_Dwarf
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 02:06 AM
There was an article on here a while ago about a Gaelic speaking Scotsman who shipwrecked and beached in North Africa. The native tribe didn't kill him like they usually killed all foreigners because they recognized his language as being related to their own. Food for thought.

my history prof has said that europeans considered the irish and even some scots to be little more than savages like africans .... interestin insultin but intrestin

:fiq:

QuietWind
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 03:57 AM
Melina Kanakaredes is Greek, but I have always thought that she has some of the most beautiful curly hair. http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=37662&stc=1

Ljót-fulfr
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 12:50 PM
As someone from a Scottish Highland background and having been around many Gaels I can tell you that the opposite from what you are saying is true. The tendency is towards very strait -- maybe at most wavy hair. There is also a tendency towards very dark -- almost black hair -- with very light green or blue eyes and freckles. The Gaels I have seen have never had "nappy" hair as you describe. I have seen a few Italians may qualify as that but not any Celts. I have noticed a few redhead Irish guys with curley hair -- but never "nappy" or "kinky." The old Moorish blood rumour is not true -- although recent DNA tests have linked Celts to ancient Iberians in northern Spain many thousands of years ago -- but they were not the non-Aryan Moors that you mentioned but rather northern Europeans that migrated south during the Ice Age and hid in Iberia.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 01:54 PM
More like the other way around.


but rather northern Europeans that migrated south during the Ice Age and hid in Iberia.

Milesian
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 03:13 PM
Yeah, that thought came accross my mind as well. Not surprising considering the Irish and Spanish are both Catholic and throughout history have not cared for the English to say the least.

Milesian, what is this :D supposed to convey (in reference to my inquiry?)


The dark-haired, Med looking Irish look is not from shipwrecked survivors of the Armada. Those who did survive were either killed by the English or their agents. or were helped to return home by sympathetic clans. It's difficult to image why these men (who were mostly wealthy nobles) would want to stay in a land which was poor and under hostile military rule, and if found would be executed.

Even accepting that a few did survive and stay, they would not have been anywhere near enough to influence the gene pool in such a way.
The Irish and Spanish share a similar root stock going back thousands of years. But the Armada myth is not very likely.

http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/


Perhaps there's more to Afro-Celt sound system than meets the eye? :P J/K.

Yes, the Irish are actually descended from the Xhosa people, who were taken as slaves by Phoenicians and traded with the Atlantean survivors who had taken refuge on Ireland for a brief period before building a spaceship to take them beyond the stars. This explains the fact that Irish is a Hamitic language, despite the protestations of linguists who try to convince us it is an Indo-European language ;)


There was an article on here a while ago about a Gaelic speaking Scotsman who shipwrecked and beached in North Africa. The native tribe didn't kill him like they usually killed all foreigners because they recognized his language as being related to their own. Food for thought.

I take it with a pinch of salt, really.
If you tried to replicate it by taking a man from the Isle of Lewis and dumping him in downtown Rabat, I'd be extremely suprised if you had anything more than curious locals and a bewildered Scotsman.

It reminds me of the text which supposedly highlights the remarkable similarity between Welsh and Hebrew. A welsh speaker told me that apart from a couple of words, he couldn't understand any of it, even the part that was supposedly Welsh :)

Milesian
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 03:20 PM
The old Moorish blood rumour is not true -- although recent DNA tests have linked Celts to ancient Iberians in northern Spain many thousands of years ago -- but they were not the non-Aryan Moors that you mentioned but rather northern Europeans that migrated south during the Ice Age and hid in Iberia.


Glenlivet is correct. Iberia was the Paleolithic refuge for the people carrying the R1b marker in Europe during the last ice age. R1 b is the most common y-chromosome marker in Western Europe, although it's saturation point is reached in Ireland. There is nothing genetically to link the Irish or Scots with non-Eurpoids.

Rhydderch
Thursday, August 11th, 2005, 05:17 AM
Those who did survive were either killed by the English or their agents
Many were robbed (lots were wearing expensive ornamentation) and killed by the local Irish, or handed over to the English. The Spanish were hardly benefactors of the Irish, they were simply aiming at undermining their old English enemies through the back door.

QuietWind
Thursday, August 25th, 2005, 03:44 AM
I thought of a couple of other females with pretty curls. Keri Russell and Amanda Marshall (although amanda Marshall's mom was from Trinidad, so it is possible, her curls are from some non-europid source. I am not sure what her mother was racially.) I randomly uploaded the two of them below, so if you aren't sure who is who, you may need to right click on them.

Sifsvina
Thursday, August 25th, 2005, 04:52 AM
I think people are confusing "nappy" and curly or frizzy. I have always understood "nappy" as brillo pad consistency hair, tiny curls in the millimeter range -growing straight out of the scalp like that, a black term for their own hair. I have never seen this hair on anyone without at least some definite negro ancestry. And the only instances of a "black" having other than this hair is from non-negroid add-mixture. Of course most of them process their hair so it is hard to tell. This is very different than other "curly" hair, which does have a tendency toward frizziness as the individual hairs often curl separately as well as curliness having to do with a difference in hair shape and texture. There may be sub-racial reasons for the difference between tight ringlets (similar to the last couple pictured and tighter), medium curls (most of the other pics on this thread and my own -generally around an inch in diameter), and loose waves but I would be really surprised if any, except possibly really tight ringlets, had anything to do with negroid add-mixture. But then I'm not an expert on these things, just an observer of details and differences.
:valkyrie

QuietWind
Thursday, August 25th, 2005, 06:27 AM
I found the coolest website with.......curls!:)


(Okay, I will stop posting girls with curls. I promise. This is my last curl post. :D )

Milesian
Thursday, August 25th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Many were robbed (lots were wearing expensive ornamentation) and killed by the local Irish, or handed over to the English.

Some were, it depended on which territory they ended up in. Some clans had thrown their lot in with the English, other resisted the English and aided the shipwrecked to get to Scotland and fom there to the Spanish Netherlands

Interesting contemporary account of Captain Cuellar (in the original Spanish & English) -

"Francisco de Cuellar was aboard the last group of Armada ships wrecked in Ireland, on 25 September 1588. He came ashore at Streedagh strand, north of Sligo Bay, territory controlled by the O'Conors. Moving on into Leitrim he met with Brian O'Rourke of Breffni, before staying at the McClancy castle at Rossclogher for three months. He then went to the place where "Alonzo de Leya y el Conde de Paredes y Don Tomas de Granvela" were lost, which is taken to be Dunluce Castle on the north coast of Antrim, east of Portrush. Then, in search of passage to Scotland, he went to the territory of O'Cahan around Coleraine. His use of the term 'savage' to describe the Irish should not necessarily be regarded as pejorative. Inhabitants of Galicia in Spain were referred to in the same way by contemporaries. Although written 'with emotion recollected in tranquility', this eye-witness account of Gaelic life makes Francisco de Cuellar's letter a most valuable social document of the period.

Hugh Allingham and Robert Crawford (Ballyshannon, 1897), from Cuellar's descriptions"


http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T108200/




The Spanish were hardly benefactors of the Irish, they were simply aiming at undermining their old English enemies through the back door.


On the contrary, not only had the Spanish sent military aid to Ireland on several occasions, Spain accomodated the exiled Irish chiefs into the Spanish nobility, welcomed thousands of Irish every year into Spanish society, founded Irish colleges to train Irish clergy, etc.
The relationship was a mutually beneficial one.
Spain provided training, money, facilities, military power, etc
Ireland provided a ready source of military recruits who were prized above all others by the Spanish for their courage and loyalty.

The link in my previous post asks the question whether perhaps drained too many young men & nobles from Ireland and thus left it without a fighting body of men and intelligesa to lead them, but it's all speculative and hindsight now.
Fate and luck, for better or worse, allowed things to turn out as they did today.

Imperator X
Friday, August 26th, 2005, 01:19 AM
The link in my previous post asks the question whether perhaps drained too many young men & nobles from Ireland and thus left it without a fighting body of men and intelligesa to lead them, but it's all speculative and hindsight now.
Fate and luck, for better or worse, allowed things to turn out as they did today.

Which is fine because ever since Ireland broke with the pound and adopted the Euro, their economy has boomed to become one of the richest in the EU and they are one of the top exporters of technology, especially Dell computers. See, the Irish break with the Brits not only politically and territorily, but also economically and look what it does, sky's the limit for Ireland. :bravo

Milesian
Friday, August 26th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Which is fine because ever since Ireland broke with the pound and adopted the Euro, their economy has boomed to become one of the richest in the EU and they are one of the top exporters of technology, especially Dell computers.

I wouldn't take that as a sign of any real progress, to be honest.
Simply because I don't think material gain is the be all and end all of everything.
Ireland has had to sell her soul and become another decadent, immoral, plutocratic, mulicultural cesspit in order to reap the benefit of the Euro.
Sure, Ireland now has financial centres, modern industries, millionaires, and all the other trappings of a modern developed nation.
But it also has the mass immigration, social & moral decay, etc that goes along with those things.

I'm not alone in that I would rather Ireland was a little more "backward" in order to regain much of what has been lost.
Perhaps I'm just a reactionary though ;)


See, the Irish break with the Brits not only politically and territorily, but also economically and look what it does, sky's the limit for Ireland. :bravo

Certainly, Ireland's economic growth outstrips the UK.
It's not really practical to compare modern Ireland with Ireland under British rule. However, you are right that Ireland is certainly more affluent today.
Not suprising though as Britian traditionally ran Ireland's native industries into the ground, raised prohibitive tariffs against Irish products when they endangered Britian's own trade, made the economy agrarian so as to become Britain's larder,etc.

So no suprise indeed, that once that influence abated and those areas of Ireland given their independence were free to develop unhampered, that things materially improved.

Rhydderch
Friday, August 26th, 2005, 02:42 PM
On the contrary, not only had the Spanish sent military aid to Ireland on several occasions, Spain accomodated the exiled Irish chiefs into the Spanish nobility, welcomed thousands of Irish every year into Spanish society, founded Irish colleges to train Irish clergy, etc.
The relationship was a mutually beneficial one.
Spain provided training, money, facilities, military power, etc
Ireland provided a ready source of military recruits who were prized above all others by the Spanish for their courage and loyalty.This doesn't exactly contradict what I said ;) Of course, many of the Irish were also glad to have Spanish help in their fight against the English, I didn't intend to imply otherwise.

Milesian
Friday, August 26th, 2005, 04:11 PM
This doesn't exactly contradict what I said ;)

I didn't say it did ;)


Of course, many of the Irish were also glad to have Spanish help in their fight against the English, I didn't intend to imply otherwise.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend :)
Of course, with Spain the connections are much deeper than that, but their certainly was an element of that. The same occurred with Ireland and France too (and even Germany to a lesser degree), as I'm sure you are aware.

Rhydderch
Saturday, August 27th, 2005, 03:41 AM
I didn't say it did ;)Ah, good. But it was an implication wasn't it?;)


The enemy of my enemy is my friend :)Well yes, I suppose you could put it that way :D

But I think French and Spanish interference was mostly self-interest, and detrimental to Ireland. Some of the harsher English policies seem to have been designed out of concern that Spaniards and French might use Ireland as a springboard or base for invasion of England.

Vlad Cletus
Thursday, September 22nd, 2005, 09:00 AM
I'd have to think that this curly form of hair stems from some of the Upper-Paleolithic strains. UPs compose great portions of the populations inhabiting the British Isles.

Rhydderch
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 02:03 AM
I'd have to think that this curly form of hair stems from some of the Upper-Paleolithic strains. UPs compose great portions of the populations inhabiting the British Isles.They do compose a considerable portion, but a UP phenotype tends to be associated more with wavy than curly hair. Curly hair in the British Isles is more frequently associated with a certain Mediterranid phenotype.

TacticalMastery
Sunday, September 10th, 2006, 12:08 AM
I just had to bump this to show my hair off a bit.

Heres a picture of my from about 3-4 years ago.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8594/pepsiblue013la8.jpg 0_o

My friends used to call me "Afro Dave" and I was pretty much known to everyone around as the kid with the fro ; ). This hair in me kind of makes sense, now that ive found out that my grandmother on my fathers side is mostly scottish (I guess the red, thick hair should have tipped me off ;) ).
My dads side of the family calls this "The Crane hair" because my grandmothers maidens name is Crane, a Scottish surname, and theres been many people down that line in her family that have similar or the same hair. My dad didnt quite get it, but me and my brother did.

Heres me now, with a hair cut:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5002/dave9ie7.jpg

You can see my hair is kind of "straight", but still stands up because of how insanely thick it is. My sister didnt really get it, but her hairs still really thick.It doesnt quite get really curly or somewhat "frizzY" at the ends until it gets longer.

Anyways, just thought i'd bump this for you all to get a laugh out of my white mans fro :thumbup I got more pictures if this one wasnt funny enough for you. ;)

Dropkick
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
When I was younger I had dead straight, white-blond hair. It then got darker and curly and then wavy. :|