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QuietWind
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Has anyone seen the Dove campaign for real beauty?

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat3.asp?id=2450

The idea behind it that women are not super tall, super thin supermodels. Real women are shorter and heavier. Did you know that the average woman in America is only 5'4", 140 lbs., and around a size 10 or 12? Some websites say that over 40% of American women are a size 14 and up. What do you think about these new ad campaigns and about modeling agencies that now employ larger women? Personally, I think it is great. Look at Plus size models (sizes 14 and up). They are beautiful! What's more is that they are REAL! These are women who know that they are larger and take pride in their appearance and in who they are. Contrary to what society leads us to believe, not all people can maintain a super thin figure. Even your racial data should tell you that: Alpines are stocky, UP's are larger boned, etc. Not everyone is a gracile Med or Nordid.

Models:

http://www.big-gals.com.au/viewmodels_new.asp

http://www.donnabaldwin.com/index.asp?FramePage=/female/femalethumb_all.asp&FrameQuery=Category%3DPlus


Info on average clothing sizes, etc.

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/fr/gr112055f.html
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2004/03/moooo.html
http://www.geocities.com/tenorqueen/fashionfacts.html
http://webweekly.hms.harvard.edu/archive/2004/12_20/student_scene.html
http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat/2002-05-15-armstrong.htm
http://www.notmykid.org/parentArticles/eatingDisorders/

Nordraserei
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Not bad. ;)

Jehan
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Since when the pinnacle of beauty is your average american girl?? I thought being beautiful was something exceptional, like being smarter than average, some kind of aesthetical elite.;) If everybody's beautiful, beauty loses all its meaning. It's a bit like turning schools into "The Great Temples of Brain Emptiness" just because the black kids can't count to ten.
Ugly people are sad? Lower beauty standards, poor them! :violin

I also have big issues with the "being beautiful is in your head" thing. You can feel beautiful all you want, it won't change anything about how you look, so why indulge in some stupid fantasy? Why not recognize your real strengths instead?

Finally, I want to insist on something: there is a BIG difference between being curvy and being fat. One is a quality, the other is a health issue.

But yeah, some were okay...:P

QuietWind
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005, 03:22 AM
Since when the pinnacle of beauty is your average american girl?? I thought being beautiful was something exceptional, like being smarter than average, some kind of aesthetical elite.;) If everybody's beautiful, beauty loses all its meaning. It's a bit like turning schools into "The Great Temples of Brain Emptiness" just because the black kids can't count to ten.
Ugly people are sad? Lower beauty standards, poor them! :violin

I also have big issues with the "being beautiful is in your head" thing. You can feel beautiful all you want, it won't change anything about how you look, so why indulge in some stupid fantasy? Why not recognize your real strengths instead?

Finally, I want to insist on something: there is a BIG difference between being curvy and being fat. One is a quality, the other is a health issue.

But yeah, some were okay...:P
A long time ago, the "aesthetical elite" (beautiful women) would have looked more like these. It is only in today's society that anorexic is considered beautiful. Most of the models out there are anorexic, bullemic, etc. They have eating disorders which brings about a whole host of health problems. A woman with a few extra pounds is usually much healthier than a super thin woman. It isn't about lowering the standards of beauty to your "average american girl" it's about showing people a realistic, healthier, and different view of beauty. It's about redefing beauty from the sickly ideal that it has become.

Comparing beauty to intelligence just doesn't work, unless you are of the belief in multiple intelligences. After all, what is beautiful to one person and in one society is completely different to another person in another society. Intelligence doesn't change based upon perceptions. There is a set standard for intelligence that is used cross culturally and does not vary from individual to individual. Unless, as aforementioned, you believe in multiple intelligences: art, music, athletics, educational, etc. In this way, sure, everyone can be smart in their own way.

I agree that thinking you are beautiful won't make you beautiful; however, it does improve self esteem and your general outlook on your own abilities. In a society that is overly body conscious, women need to feel that they are beautiful in their own way. Just because society does not find a woman attractive, doesn't mean the man down the street also finds her to be ugly. She might be the most beautiful thing in the world in his eyes. I was raised to believe I was ugly. It was fed to me my entire life by my own mother and by others. Am I ugly? Well, maybe I am. I certainly think so, and overcoming it is very difficult. As a young adult, if I met a man who told me I was beautiful, then I would not speak to him again, because I knew he was a liar. THAT is how much I believed I was ugly. I only hope that my husband now finds me attractive and that I can instill in my daughter how beautiful she is.

I agree with you that there is a BIG difference in being curvy and being fat. I can tell you one thing, though, the majority of those women in the ads would be classified as overweight and fat by health standards. Do they look fat? Many of them are very curvy. I don't think I saw cellulite on even one of them-- of course it could be air brushed. The problem is that society has dictated that they are fat. A size 14 and up is "plus size." They buy "queen size" panty hose. They have to buy their clothing at special big women stores. There are all kinds of "nice" names for things at that size. Women like that are considered large, fat, big, and sometimes even "obese." Does it matter that they may actually be toned and a healthy weight for their body shape and size? Nope. It doesn't matter because society tells them that they must be a certain weight relative to their height. Consider the following chart (one of many out there) http://www.annecollins.com/weight-loss/ideal-weight-women.htm
The women on the model site are all around 5'8" and according to this chart, they should weigh no more than 164 (and that is the max, taking large frame into consideration.) The model site does not give their weight information, but I would hazard to guess that almost all of those women are at least 20 lbs. more than this, based upon their height, measurements, and clothing size. Now consider the average for a supermodel: "The minimum height is usually about 5'8", and average weight for a model is 108-125 lbs." Source: http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/model/model.html
Minimum 5'8", and wieght 108-125! The problem right there is that even at the shortest height, 5'8", and the maximum weight (125), the model is only 1 pound over the MINIMUM she should be for her height. We all know that a 5'8" model is probably closer to the 108 lb. range. THAT is the problem with the current "beauty" ideal portrayed in the media today. It is not about there being this "aesthetical elite" who are malnourished and suffer from a variety of health problems.

Mistress Klaus
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005, 03:38 PM
:| I have a complaint....I can no longer find any garments that have waistbands (i.e. skirts, shorts, pants etc) that will fit me. My size is a 24inch/60cm (size 8-10) around the waist and I have remained this size for the past 15 years (since I was 15!). The damn clothes fall off me now... :| Every single store! and not ONE item fitted me around the waist! (I could fit both wrists in the waistband!!!! :-O

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I think Australia is definitely catering for the bigger ladies....in the way that a size 14 skirt (in reality) being displayed/ticketed as a size 10. Strange though...tops/shirts etc still fit me the same???....Is this proof that females are becoming more pear-shaped?

As a slim female I feel like I am being discriminated against. :thumbdown
Looks like I had better get myself a sewing machine and custom make my clothes. :D

QuietWind
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005, 05:47 PM
I've had that problem no matter what size I was. I sew my own clothes. ;) They have the cutest patterns and the nicest fabrics out there and you can tailor make them to fit what you need. I found this interesting article on Australian women's chaging size and clothing: (Apparently, Australian women have changed shape "differently" than in other countries.)

http://www.standards.com.au/Catalogue/Script/GetPage.asp?print=1&url=:80/NEWSROOM/NEWS%20RELEASE/2003-08-25/2003-08-25.HTM

In Australia, do you think women there are larger on average than American women? I am asking for several reasons. 1) When I was looking at plus size modeling sites for a link yesterday, the australian one was one of the few out there. 2) I had joined a baby forum that was made up of women primarily in Australia-- those with children, looking to concieve, or pregnant. It seemed as though most of them were talking about how big they were, and what clothing shops Australia has for large women. Here is America, I can name only 1 clothing store for larger women, and regular stores don't usually carry things past a size 10 (excpet in the big expensive department stores.) I think that in accessibility of larger women's clothing is why so many larger Americans can be seen walking around in sweats or wearing items that are clearly 2 sizes too small. :P

Northern Paladin
Saturday, July 16th, 2005, 03:17 AM
These girls could all stand to lose some weight in the right places. They aren't exactly fat but they are stocky they have fat concentrated in certain areas. Thighs waist ect...would be more asethically pleasing if they were slimmer. At least that's my opinion.

fms panzerfaust
Saturday, July 16th, 2005, 04:49 AM
I agree that thinking you are beautiful won't make you beautiful; however, it does improve self esteem and your general outlook on your own abilities. In a society that is overly body conscious, women need to feel that they are beautiful in their own way. Just because society does not find a woman attractive, doesn't mean the man down the street also finds her to be ugly. She might be the most beautiful thing in the world in his eyes. I was raised to believe I was ugly. It was fed to me my entire life by my own mother and by others. Am I ugly? Well, maybe I am. I certainly think so, and overcoming it is very difficult. As a young adult, if I met a man who told me I was beautiful, then I would not speak to him again, because I knew he was a liar. THAT is how much I believed I was ugly. I only hope that my husband now finds me attractive and that I can instill in my daughter how beautiful she is.
I dont think you're ugly (assuming that the girl in your profile is you). I too have some problems in the past with some other guys in university (when I was going to university) and society in general about my "ugliness", and I was laughing over their comments, because they were - in the majority - ugly mestizos, some of them fat men that have the bad habit of drinking too much beer ;) . Then you can perceive that sometimes is envy of others, or even another standard that they try to impose. Today any white man with blue eyes and big nose, and that use eyeglasses, is considered ugly, this by the new "progressive" standards. The nigger, shit-colored, flat-nosed, with a smell that you think he's comes from a sewer, and that you see at the shopping center accompanied by a young white girl, sometimes a blonde white girl, that is the new "progressive" standard of beauty for this damn new world. So who have the right to judge who is ugly or not? I dont consider myself to be ugly, I prefer to think that the society that surrounds me is ugly :D .

Mistress Klaus
Wednesday, July 20th, 2005, 11:10 AM
In Australia, do you think women there are larger on average than American women? I am asking for several reasons. 1) When I was looking at plus size modeling sites for a link yesterday, the australian one was one of the few out there. 2) I had joined a baby forum that was made up of women primarily in Australia-- those with children, looking to concieve, or pregnant. It seemed as though most of them were talking about how big they were, and what clothing shops Australia has for large women. Here is America, I can name only 1 clothing store for larger women, and regular stores don't usually carry things past a size 10 (excpet in the big expensive department stores.) I think that in accessibility of larger women's clothing is why so many larger Americans can be seen walking around in sweats or wearing items that are clearly 2 sizes too small. :P

I would assume that Aussie & American women would be around the same weight...of both larger & smaller weight......The larger, (in both countries) suffering the fraughts of over-indulgence of fast food, general laziness, reluctance to do any heavy physical work, exercise...)..... Having a baby is NO excuse for being fat. :|

Life has become too easy for both male & female. Both sexes are guilty of a selfish, guttonous and lazy existence. If Australia has become 'fatter' than Amerika ,...that is a shame...but not really surprising.

I might add....I am quite horrified at the lack of skills and/or willingness in the modern person to actually cook meals from scratch. :-O :( ....It is the most basic of instincts for survival.... :|

QuietWind
Wednesday, July 20th, 2005, 12:44 PM
I agree with you ladies and I think some of it comes from women working outside the home. I know that when I worked (in the past) I didn't feel like getting home at 6:30pm and spending an hour making dinner. Now that I am home full time, I cook. Growing up, I began cooking for my family full time by the time I was 14. My mother worked outside the home, and was on a cooking strike because no one would eat her meals, so I came home after school, began dinner, and by the time everyone else got home dinner was on the table and ready to eat.

It is so true that women these days cannot cook or even bake a cake. "Cooking" for them involves buying a box of hamburger helper and making a meal with it. Cooking is so much healthier than buying fatty pre-cooked meals or fast food. Plus it's fun. :)

Mistress Klaus
Wednesday, July 20th, 2005, 01:10 PM
:) Cooking is fun. I also understand the pressure of cooking whilst working (single at the time... I still home-cooked for myself (mainly steaks & salads...very quick).........but a family needs more.

Women (in my opinion) are probably best to stay home & learn the true art of homemaking...if they are to take on a marriage...with or without children.

Children need a mothers' nuturing in ALL ways...the male should go to work.
The female 'mother' cooks the meals for the family. If possible, also grows vegetables. I also think the male should know his way around the kitchen. (for crisis times...or when the female needs a break.. :D )

'Keep her happy & she will lay the best eggs'... :D

Draco
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 05:47 AM
Marilyn Monroe was a size 14, and would be unable to get a part as even an extra in todays movies.

Brin
Tuesday, March 13th, 2012, 01:57 AM
Honestly, these women are average at best:

http://www.wonderbranding.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dove_wideweb__430x327.jpg

Dove also used naked old women, minorities, etc. to represent "real beauty". I'm sorry, but who are they to tell me what real beauty is? It's a complacent attitude to cater to more average and below average people in an age where pleasing minorities and outcasts is trendy. Fat won't even be considered unhealthy anymore. I'm against tanorexic models too, but we shouldn't adopt the other extreme either. :thumbdown

The truth is Dove and other campaigns pushing for chubby ideal have agendas too, just as skinny promoting magazines do.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YQ7uXHUp0Mo/SpwN8kRN1iI/AAAAAAAAAVI/epQlIgVQ7EI/s400/dove-pro-age-merinete.jpg

Just please. :|

Unity Mitford
Tuesday, March 13th, 2012, 02:23 AM
Honestly, these women are average at best:

http://www.wonderbranding.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dove_wideweb__430x327.jpg

Dove also used naked old women, minorities, etc. to represent "real beauty". I'm sorry, but who are they to tell me what real beauty is? It's a complacent attitude to cater to more average and below average people in an age where pleasing minorities and outcasts is trendy. Fat won't even be considered unhealthy anymore. I'm against tanorexic models too, but we shouldn't adopt the other extreme either. :thumbdown

The truth is Dove and other campaigns pushing for chubby ideal have agendas too, just as skinny promoting magazines do.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YQ7uXHUp0Mo/SpwN8kRN1iI/AAAAAAAAAVI/epQlIgVQ7EI/s400/dove-pro-age-merinete.jpg

Just please. :|

I think we should direct them to our Skadi beautiful women thread ;)

Sl
Friday, March 16th, 2012, 11:42 PM
Fit women will always be beautiful, no matter what these distorted commercials say. Curves are beautiful but you don't need to be fat to be curvy. Obesity is a disease and it should be placed in the same category with other eating disorders. Overeating and binge eating is the opposite of anorexia and it's life threatening. The women in the first picture are still alright but the old black woman looks bordering obesity. :|