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View Full Version : Is Skin Complexion Subrace-Related?



herr georg
Saturday, July 2nd, 2005, 02:47 AM
Is skin complexion and sub-race related?
I originally assumed scandinavians to be quite fair-skinned/UV intolerant but after seeing movies from such far flung scandinavians places as iceland and also norway etc I've pretty much decided that pale, UV intolerant, fair-skin is not really related to sub-race anymore and is mostly just something that pops up rarely in all caucasian countries. The only places where white, freckled, tranlusant non-tanning skin is a fairly common thing is ireland, scotland, and some parts of england, like the north.
But before this I've assumed that fair skin is a nordid traight, and that more UV tolerant skin types are from other sub-races or other races all together and there can be 'throw-backs' in blood line not just with negroid traits but with darker complexions from past mongoloid/mediterranean etc intermingling so that the skin produces more melanin.
I do however think that light skin is a nordid traight but I think that the yellowey blond skin that tans lightly is more common then the freckled/ashen white skin.
I noticed its mostly red-heads or people with darker hair sometimes even black hair that have that ivory white skin generally attributed to irish people.

QuietWind
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 01:10 AM
I know what you mean about some with black hair having ivroy white skin. My grandmother was this way. She had the palest, ivory skin anywhere, and pale grey eyes, but her hair was Jet black. One thing that you touched on, and I have been interested in, but not seen anything on it (yet) is the idea of what you call the "yellowey blond skin." People generally associate "yellow" skin with asian, without thinking that a caucsian can also have a yellow undertone to their skin. In cosmotology and fashion, they place people in categories primarily according to your skintone: Summer, Spring, Fall, Winter, or Warm, Cool, Neutral, etc. Your skin, basically determines your colors. Ever noticed why some people look great in certain shades of Yellow, while others look sickly? Some people look better in white, while other should wear a more off white. Some women can wear blue eyes shadow while others look like their are dying in it. Some women's skin is complimetary to their bleached hair, yet others look horrid. Etc. I have noticed Europid skin undertones to fall into one of three categories (generally): yellow, pink, and olive. I have seen things that refer to Nordids as having a pink undertone, but honestly, I have seen more people with the "yellow blond" that you describe. My mother is blonde/ green eyed with a yellow undertone. My father is dark-brown/ brown with a pink undertone (it was his mother with the pale ivory skin and black hair.) I was cursed.... my undertone is a mix of their pink and yellow and I look orange! Place my arm next to someone who has a yellow undertone, and I look pink. Place me next to a pink and I look yellow. It's horrible being orange. :| My father and I tan extremely well, whereas my mother with the yellow undertone can't tan at all, nor does she freckle. My husband has the yellow undertone and he freckles, doesn't tan.

Maybe someone else has more insight into this area.;)

Milesian
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 09:47 AM
Basically while hair depigmentation is most concentrated in NE Europe around the Baltic region, skin depigmentation is at it's greatest in NW Europe around Britain and Ireland. My own experiences from holiday are that extremely blonde Scandinavians very often take a suprisingly rich, deep brown tan.
Most of the Britsh and Irish (particularly Scots and Irish) seem to either be chalk white or lobster red through sunburn, which makes them really attractive as you can imagine :D As a Scottish comedian put it to his English audience:

"Now here you are white. But up in Scotland we're a kind of pale blue colour. It takes us a week of sunbathing to get white!"

It's an adaption to lack of UV light. Living in an area where two days out of three on average recieve no direct sunlight, it pays to depigment the skin so as to maximise Vitamin D production.

Huzar
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 09:56 AM
Imo, skin complexion is important of course, but not like pigmentation of eyes and hair. at least i think

Milesian
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 10:38 AM
Important in what way?

herr georg
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 11:01 AM
himmler had pale white skin, and pale grey-blue eyes, but he was short and round-faced with dark hair.
I have pale white skin that freckles (I have pale blonde freckles on my face and brown ones on my arms and back) but it is very pasty looking :) I get a pale pink/purple undertone in the winter, other then that, I'm just off-white, with no colour at all other then freckles. But yellow indoor light seems to be quite flattering to the pigment impaired. Sometimes I have been suprised by myself after spending some time around costal places, but I never get any sort of tan anywhere else.
I actually get this from my father's side (=german) and not from his mother but his father, who is the german one. He actually looked like heinrich himmler (but not short and round faced) just in a few of his facial features with that same complexion, and I think that the old country was actually bavaria! so I don't know, creepy, I hope I'm not related to himmler :).

Oh, and does anyone know what the complexion of that one nazi was who I forget his name...it was the really nordic looking one, the 'blond beast'. Was he fair skinned?

Glenlivet
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 11:07 AM
Among the Scandinavians Norwegians (and some Danes) are in this respect more like Brits. Although there are regional variations, Norwegians are more golden blonde and blue-eyed than Swedes.

There is much less rufosity in Scandinavia. There are many more brown-haired Brits who have masked rufosity. Ash-blonde people tend to tan better.

It seems very probable that red-haired individuals often result from the crossings of a black-haired parent in whom there is a good deal recessive red-gold pigment, with a blond mate in whose hair is little pigment of any kind, and some of that little red-gold pigment. Pure red heads are thus a result of segregation of the red-gold pigment. The freckles represent the tanning abilities of the brunet stock, irregularly distributed in the epithelial cells.

Blonde invidiuals who dye their hair black have a complexion that look paler. That is because of reflection.

Skin colour might have been difficult to measure 60 years ago. One can measure skin colour with spectrophotometry.

"Blue-eyed Irishmen with black hair are common--maybe due to gene mixing & Viking repopulation after the last Ice Age. Green eyes often go with red hair. (see Poirier et al p 566)"

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/7_07Notes%20for%20Week%207.htm

The comment on Ireland only confirm how red hair may have come about. The theory might be wrong regarding Vikings, although they might have contributed.

QuietWind
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 12:10 PM
Among the Scandinavians Norwegians (and some Danes) are in this respect more like Brits. Although there are regional variations, Norwegians are more golden blonde and blue-eyed than Swedes.

There is much less rufosity in Scandinavia. There are many more brown-haired Brits who have masked rufosity. Ash-blonde people tend to tan better.

It seems very probable that red-haired individuals often result from the crossings of a black-haired parent in whom there is a good deal recessive red-gold pigment, with a blond mate in whose hair is little pigment of any kind, and some of that little red-gold pigment. Pure red heads are thus a result of segregation of the red-gold pigment. The freckles represent the tanning abilities of the brunet stock, irregularly distributed in the epithelial cells.

Blonde invidiuals who dye their hair black have a complexion that look paler. That is because of reflection.

Skin colour might have been difficult to measure 60 years ago. One can measure skin colour with spectrophotometry.

"Blue-eyed Irishmen with black hair are common--maybe due to gene mixing & Viking repopulation after the last Ice Age. Green eyes often go with red hair. (see Poirier et al p 566)"

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/7_07Notes%20for%20Week%207.htm

The comment on Ireland only confirm how red hair may have come about. The theory might be wrong regarding Vikings, although they might have contributed.
I think I may have read about that spectro.... word recently. I was reading something about where they shine this light thingy at the inner part of the upper arm and something about pigmentation.... I'm not sure where I read it...maybe on Skadi somewhere? Most of the things of this nature I read on Skadi. :P

herr georg
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 12:54 PM
That was interesting what you said about blondes who darken their hair making them look pale, because I have medium brown hair and fairskin and my hair seems to emphasise my pallor, and my skin seems to make my hair look darker. Combined with my brooding expression alot of people think I'm goth....but thats just ignorance there should be no excuse for. I'm trying to lighten my hair now, the hair colouring I got from the supermarket seems to be doing nothing :) . Hopefully lighter hair will bring out my pigment, if not, I'm going with the fake tan :) . As long as I don't end up with that blotchy/streaky/orangey tacky look.

The Horned God
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 01:16 PM
Most of the Britsh and Irish (particularly Scots and Irish) seem to either be chalk white or lobster red through sunburn.
I went down to Blasket Islands in Kerry about a month ago and walked the circumference of the Great Blasket. I was still peeling until last week, at one point I bore a passing resemblence to Freddy Kruger. Too much sun is like radiation sickness for me, but a companion who also appears to have pale white skin but who on closer inspection has the slightest yellow undertone, didn't burn at all. To me this supports the theory that ivory-white and pink skin tones are suited for overcast and forested enviroments and the yellow is suited for a more open setting, like steppe or tundra, or maybe just by the coast.


"Now here you are white. But up in Scotland we're a kind of pale blue colour. It takes us a week of sunbathing to get white!"

Thats a good one! But not that far from the truth, I have noticed that photos taken by a window on overcast days give a bluish tinge to pale skin, I think it is to do with the clouds scattering blue light, but I wouldn't know for sure...

Milesian
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 01:30 PM
I went down to Blasket Islands in Kerry about a month ago and walked the circumference of the Great Blasket. I was still peeling until last week, at one point I bore a passing resemblence to Freddy Kruger. Too much sun is like radiation sickness for me, but a companion who also appears to have pale white skin but who on closer inspection has the slightest yellow undertone, didn't burn at all. To me this supports the theory that ivory-white and pink skin tones are suited for overcast and forested enviroments and the yellow is suited for a more open setting, like steppe or tundra, or maybe just by the coast.

Sure, I can get sunburned after a couple of hours exposure to the summer sun here no problem. Most other Europeans would be wrapping up in a jacket :D



Thats a good one! But not that far from the truth, I have noticed that photos taken by a window on overcast days give a bluish tinge to pale skin, I think it is to do with the clouds scattering blue light, but I wouldn't know for sure...

My guess is that the bluish tinge is simply caused by the de-oxygenated blood in the veins showing through the skin.

Huzar
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 01:56 PM
Important in what way?
I used the wrong term, pardon. I meant more indicative of physiological level of depigmentation. Anyway, it's off topic i think.

The Horned God
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 01:59 PM
My guess is that the bluish tinge is simply caused by the de-oxygenated blood in the veins showing through the skin.
That would explain why physical activity causes reddening in the face; the skin becomes enfused with oxygenated blood.I still think ambient light has a part to play in the blueish effect as well , as daylight is known to be bluer than tungsten bulb light, and I have only seen the effect an overcast days, usually near dusk.

Huzar
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 02:25 PM
I went down to Blasket Islands in Kerry about a month ago and walked the circumference of the Great Blasket. I was still peeling until last week, at one point I bore a passing resemblence to Freddy Kruger. Too much sun is like radiation sickness for me, but a companion who also appears to have pale white skin but who on closer inspection has the slightest yellow undertone, didn't burn at all. To me this supports the theory that ivory-white and pink skin tones are suited for overcast and forested enviroments and the yellow is suited for a more open setting, like steppe or tundra, or maybe just by the coast.
..

i hate sunburns :~( . Well, i have to say that i've had some similar experience of the kind (not as violent as yours, though). Surely, i'm not light complexioned like you or Milesian , but EVERY summer it's the same : without any protection, after two hours i'm RED:-O, (after three, i would be in some hospital..........)

QuietWind
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 05:12 PM
That would explain why physical activity causes reddening in the face; the skin becomes enfused with oxygenated blood.I still think ambient light has a part to play in the blueish effect as well , as daylight is known to be bluer than tungsten bulb light, and I have only seen the effect an overcast days, usually near dusk.
I agree with your ideas presented here. I tend to agree that the bluish effect is probably caused more by light reflection and not by the veins. My skin is not bluish at all, not ever, and I tan extremely well even though I try and cover up to avoid it. I do have thin skin though and small veins, yet they show through my skin. In some places it looks like a road map of little blue veins. I do have the effect you talk about where physical activity makes my face extremely red. So, I am not sure the bluish effect in some people comes from the veins/blood. The reflection of certain lights makes more sense to me, because hair and eyes also tend to look differently in various lighting.