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Agrippa
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Thats my basic classification system, which I use for quite some time and I think is the best typology to understand and describe the basic Europid variation:


(N = Nordoid, M = Mediterranoid, T = Taurid, K = Kontaktrasse/contact-mixed race)

1. Europide (Caucasoids):
a) Nordide:
1. Teutonordide/Skandonordide (N)
2. Fennonordide/Ostnordide (N)
3. Nordatlantide (N)
b) Mediterranide:
1. Atlantomediterranide (M)
2. Pontide (M)
3. Grazilmediterranide (M)
c) Cromagnide:
1. Dalofaelide (N)
2. Palaeatlantide (M)
3. Berid (M)
4. Berberid (M)
d) Osteuropide:
1. Westbaltide (N?)
2. Ostbaltide
e) Alpinoid:
1. Nordalpinoide (Borreby)
2. Westalpinide
3. Ostalpinide (Gorid)
4. Lappide (K)
f) Dinaride:
1. Noride (T)
2. Adriatide (T)
3. Kaukaside (T)
g) Armenide:
1. Anatolide (T)
2. Zentralarmenide (T)
h) Turanide:
1. Pamiride (T)
2. Aralide (K)
i) Orientalide:
1. Iranide (M?)
2. Arabide (M?)
j) Indide:
1. Nordindide (M?)
2. Grazilindide (M?)
3. Indobrachide (M?)

Waarnemer
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Why borreby only in the alpinoid category, and not in the cromagnide? And i thought that berid was a alpinoid type (but i'm probable wrong)

Agrippa
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Why borreby only in the alpinoid category, and not in the cromagnide? And i thought that berid was a alpinoid type (but i'm probable wrong)

Agreed, that are "borderline cases", without a doubt. On the other hand this huge Borreby type some people have in mind is rather a minority and the typical examples seem to be rather Alpinoid than anything else.
Berid on the other hand is going in an Alpinid direction and might be the ancestoral form of Westalpinids, but still the headform is not really Alpinoid from my point of view.

Edwin
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Is your Palaeatlantide a Sean Connery or a John Kennedy?

If the former, then you need to add Kennedyoid to your Cro-Mag list, then move Palaeatlantide to Med. But if the latter, then you need to change its M to an N (and the Berberid as well), remove the Berid and put it under Med, and add Conneryoid to your Med list. Also, you should remove Nordalpinoide and reenter it under Cro-Mag as Borreby.

Honestly Agrippa, the N vs M thing should have its own lists :D

Agrippa
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 04:50 PM
*lol*
Its up to you to make an own list with your own reasoning and back it up with sources.

Sean Connery is pred. Palaeatlantid in my opinion. Kennedy is more difficult and shows various influences, I wouldnt describe him as belonging to just one type. Though he might be more Dalofaelid, general Cromagnid than anything else.

Edwin
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 05:10 PM
*lol*
Its up to you to make an own list with your own reasoning and back it up with sources.

Sean Connery is pred. Palaeatlantid in my opinion. Kennedy is more difficult and shows various influences, I wouldnt describe him as belonging to just one type. Though he might be more Dalofaelid, general Cromagnid than anything else.


I doubt any of your sources have the N/M/T/K tags as you have them ;)

And the Falian vs Brünn vs Paleo-Atlantid issue? :D

Agrippa
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 05:13 PM
I doubt any of your sources have the N/M/T/K tags as you have them ;)


Well, first of all many sources dont just used the tags, but divided mainly or only after it, as I already said to you at Dodona (basic Mediterranid and Nordid definition).


And the Falian vs Brünn vs Paleo-Atlantid issue?

The borders are as fluent as it is between Nordids and Mediterranids in some areas. I used Bruenn for more robust Nordids in the past, but that caused confusion since many associated with Bruenn the same as I do with Dalofaelid. So I dont use this term any more, its basically the same anyway with typical local variants ("Irish Bruenn" etc.).

Glenlivet
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Agrippa, great job. Thanks for your time and effort to put together a classification system.

Lundman suggested a relation between the Göta and Phalian types of Nordid. He wrote that they came about from Cro-Magnid proto-groups. The Palaeo-Atlantids migrated after them and were never as depigmented.

He wrote that the Scando-Nordids and Phalians were racially related. They lived northwest of the higher-skulled Thuringian Corded-Ceramic people. They both had long and low crania. The Scando-Nordids had narrower faces and noses. Everything suggest that Lundman's West Elbe stock where Phalians predominate is related to the Southwest Scandinavian folk stock where the Göta type predominate. The Phalians show more proto-morphic traits. They are even lower-skulled. The Trönder is higher-skulled, but that is because of more of the East-Nordid element from the invading Battle-Axe people who came from a southeastern stream.

The confusing part are the North-Atlantids. He wrote that one can see something pre-Celtic in them, which means that the type may have existed regardless of Celtic and Germanic invasions from central (and originally beyond) and northern Europe.

Lundman also wrote that the Scando-Nordids who had narrower faces and noses than Phalians had perhaps yet been Indo-Europeanised during the Megalithic time. The East-Nordid is higher-skulled, and Lundman wrote that the region of origin of the Nordids bordered each other. He claimed that the East-Nordids have now almost almost disappeared. He linked them to West-Indo-Europeans.

Lundman linked Berids, West-Mediterranids (Insular) and Alpinids with shorter-statured and darker Cro-Magnids who were less adapted to cold climate.

Your scheme is alright if morphology go before pigmentation. Lundman did suggest that North-Atlantids are morphologically closer to Scando-Nordis (whom he call the "primary" type, which I do not think makes sense, as they seem to be a newer formation, but maybe he meant typical or what he also called major type). He call the Phalian the most divergent (I assume morphologically) Nordid, whereas it does not lie far behind the Scando-Nordids in terms of depigmentation. Maybe the shade of hair colour is more on the golden side and the complexion more florid.

Edwin
Thursday, June 30th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Well, first of all many sources dont just used the tags, but divided mainly or only after it, as I already said to you at Dodona (basic Mediterranid and Nordid definition).

The borders are as fluent as it is between Nordids and Mediterranids in some areas. I used Bruenn for more robust Nordids in the past, but that caused confusion since many associated with Bruenn the same as I do with Dalofaelid. So I dont use this term any more, its basically the same anyway with typical local variants ("Irish Bruenn" etc.).

Sorry if I seemed a bit grumpy :blueroll:

I know that not all use the tags, but my wording was poor.

But the Brünn issue, which is central to the Nordic discussion, still needs to be addressed. At this point it means

1) Brünn culture people type (Aurignacian I guess)
2) Cro-Magniform
3) Cro-Magnon + Neandertal
4) robust Nordiform
5) Western Faeliform
6) robust Atlanto-Mediterraniform
7) Atlanto-Mediterranean + Cro-Magnon
8) Irish
9) Scando people built like the Irish but with longer heads
10) Americans built like the Irish and Irishish Scando people

and because of this, it seems to be used more frequently than any other term. People also like the way it sounds, and it has a rather grand inheritance, so they won't want to give it up :flame

Konstas
Friday, July 1st, 2005, 05:54 AM
i) Orientalide:
1. Iranide (M?)
2. Arabide (M?)
j) Indide:
1. Nordindide (M?)
2. Grazilindide (M?)
3. Indobrachide (M?)

Mediterranoid?:thumbdown They are mix types NOT mediterranoids.

Huzar
Friday, July 1st, 2005, 07:07 AM
Oh, finally. It's interesting to see a basic , but solid classification system. I appreciate it. ("Deniker style" ;))

Huzar
Friday, July 1st, 2005, 07:26 AM
My personal scale :



Mediterranean family :

1) South - Med / "GracileMed" (south italy, south spain, for ex.)

2) North - Med / "ATLANTID" (north spain, south France, North italy)

3) Atlanto-med


NOTE : in the North-Med category, i consider "Pontid" too. By the moment the differences between pontid and atlantid are minimal). I consider Atlanto-Med, almost like an U.P. form (AGRIPPA, from what i've understood, Atlanto-Med means Atlantid, in your scale. Am i right ?)


In the next posts, i'll posts the other families....

Agrippa
Friday, July 1st, 2005, 02:00 PM
I know Dalofaelids can be considered Nordid, and for sure NordOid, but I decided to group them anatomically, after the specialisation, which means Cromagnid together though the regional association and partly anatomical too is clear (Nordoid, Mediterranoid Cromagnids).

Atlantomediterranid I use mainly for the clearly Mediterranid type (probably with a higher skull too after some discussions with our experts on Spain), not for the darker variants of Nordomediterranid/North Atlantid = Atlantid to me. But thats no real category on its own, its rather like "Keltic" and so on.

As for the other Southern Europid forms, well, I gave them a ? because its not that clear. But whats clear is, that is not that they are so close genetically related, but in terms of specialisation and formal features similar in the widest sense. F.e. the early Indid and Orientalid types are rather Protomediterranid, the specialisation of the regional types and possible mixture (especially of Indians) came later. They can't be really grouped together, but they are in terms of specialisation not extremely far away either.
But as I said, whereas the Mediterranid category is a European specialisation, for the Mediterranaen and temperate climate, the others are different (desert-herder, highland farmer type, subtropical-tropical farmer etc.).

Triglav
Friday, July 1st, 2005, 03:30 PM
Lundman did suggest that North-Atlantids are morphologically closer to Scando-Nordis (whom he call the "primary" type, which I do not think makes sense, as they seem to be a newer formation, but maybe he meant typical or what he also called major type).

So are Atlanto-Mediterranids.

SineNomine
Monday, December 25th, 2006, 04:24 AM
Agrippa, wouldn't it make sense to call the Mediterranoid races Medish? I have seen a rather (offensive) site that does this (though it subsumes Dinarids under them too, so I am not sure how correct this is). It seems logical, given the general name Nordish for northern Cro-magnids and Nordids - Medish could apply to Mediterranids and southern CM's.

Agrippa
Monday, December 25th, 2006, 03:16 PM
Agrippa, wouldn't it make sense to call the Mediterranoid races Medish? I have seen a rather (offensive) site that does this (though it subsumes Dinarids under them too, so I am not sure how correct this is). It seems logical, given the general name Nordish for northern Cro-magnids and Nordids - Medish could apply to Mediterranids and southern CM's.

Medish and Nordish are no typological category, but rather purely geographical ones if at all. It depends on the exact approach to this geographical and political categories too though. North Europid and South Europid are designations one could use for the geographical formations too, like I saw it in some works, but for the wider spectrum related to the Nordid and Mediterranid types, one should use Nordoid and Mediterranoid.