PDA

View Full Version : How Was the Dinaric Sub-Race Derived ?



Tore
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 12:39 AM
(Responses Appreciated and encouraged)

Your thoughts?

Glenlivet
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 01:54 AM
Hejsan,

I think that there is only a principle of Dinaricisation, and that Dinarid is not a racial type per se. I believe that Pontid is the origin, and the brachycephalic element is either from a brachycephalised Pontid or a Pontid-Gorid type. I cannot see any other origin than Afghanid for the hooked nose among many Dinarids.

Coon wrote "It may readily be seen that the Dinarics, Norics, and Armenoids have no ethnic or historic unity, but are for the most part parallel results of the same process repeated with similar materials in different places."

TROE
[Photographic Supplement, Plate 35]

They spread to the British Isles from the eastern Mediterranean, and I can see such types every day, but without the brachycephalic skull. The so called Keltic Nordic could have such a strain.

Furthermore, I think that many long-headed, lower-skulled, dark-haired, light-eyed and fair-skinned Ukrainian Nordids resemble British Nordids.

"...The means of these Scythian skulls show them to be low mesocephals of moderate cranial dimensions, but with a low vault height. The cranial means are, in fact, almost identical with those of the Keltic series from France and the British Isles. They resemble the Aunjetitz and Hallstatt skulls only as much as the Keltic series mentioned resemble these latter..."

The Races of Europe by Carleton Stevens Coon
(Chapter VI, section 5)
The Scythians

I would like to hear Frans3108 and asparukh's opinions as well.




(Responses Appreciated and encouraged)

Your thoughts?

Stríbog
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 01:57 AM
I have questioned the Alpine-Mediterranean blend theory ever since I first heard it. I believe Dinarics are a Europid version of Armenoids. They are taller on average than either Alpines or Meds. The occiput is also truncated like that of an Armenoid, and unlike that of either an Alpine or Med. Dinarics are also higher-skulled than either Meds or Alpines.

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 02:13 AM
I also tend to go with option #2.

I know Coon taught that dinaricization was a process, but is there actually any proof of this?
What makes Coon think that the dinaric is the result of a process, but that other races really are races?
I mean, if we take Coon's theories as fact, then that means that the Alpine developed out of the Brunn, right? The Brunn is tall and long skulled, whereas the Alpine is short and round skulled. So why not refer to a process of "alpinization" rather than to an "alpine race"?
Or for that matter why not refer to a process of 'nordicization' rather than to a nordic race?
If 'dinaricization' is a mixing of med with alpine, and nordics (according to Coon) resulted from a mixing of Corded and Danubian, then why are Nordics considered a race, and dinarics a process?

Coon says that dinarics have no historical unity, but from what I've read in the first part of The Races of Europe, Coon seems to disagree with himself.
He states that the bearers of the copper age to Greece were Dinarics who sailed there from Asia Minor.
He further states that the Bell Beaker folk began as Dinarics which - once again - sailed from Asia Minor to Spain.

Tore
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 02:32 AM
I have questioned the Alpine-Mediterranean blend theory ever since I first heard it. I believe Dinarics are a Europid version of Armenoids. They are taller on average than either Alpines or Meds. The occiput is also truncated like that of an Armenoid, and unlike that of either an Alpine or Med. Dinarics are also higher-skulled than either Meds or Alpines.

I found the same flaw in the "Alpine-Med" theory as well Stribog.:)

It seems to be that the morphology of the Dinaric type is often not intermediary of the Alpine and Mediterranean, but rather, conveys features which are more accentuated when compared with those found with either type.

i.e.:

-A more convex those than either the Alpine of Mediterranean (respectively concave and straight)

-a rounder orbital region than either the Alpine or Mediterranean (I read once that Dinarics have the roundest orbits out of all the European sub-races. I would imagine the orbit of the Dinaric would be similar to the Mediterranean Proper type, yet nevertheless, it is certainly not the result of an Alpine-Med mixture.

And as you pointed out Stribog:

-a flat occipital region (the Alpine shows some flattening, yet the occiput is generally steeper in an Upper Paleolithic manner).

-Greater Stature

-Higher Cranial Vault

Vojvoda
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 04:00 AM
What exactly is a dinaric nose? a hooked nose or a straight profile nose with a fleshy tip? What about dinarics being thick-set and stocky, that is not a med trait.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 04:04 AM
What exactly is a dinaric nose? a hooked nose or a straight profile nose with a fleshy tip?


Here are some photos of Dinarics:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p36.htm
http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p37.htm
http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p38.htm
http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p39.htm

Euclides
Tuesday, October 14th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Albanians in Greece

Deniker divides Greece into two halves according to the meridian that passes 20 degrees longitudinal from Paris. People who live west of this line are without doubt of Adriatic-Albanian type, tall and with small head (brachycephalic) like all Albanians of Dinaric race, while east of this meridian, the Greeks of Thessaly "and perhaps a part of them that live in Attica" are of another type quite different, shorter and with smaller cephalic distinguishing characteristics.
http://www.frosina.org/infobits/albgreece.shtml


DINARIC RACE

Central, eastern, and southern European racial type; 2/3 tall Mediterranean strain brachycephalized (dinaricized) through mixture with 1/3 Alpine; typically long-faced and long- and convex-nosed, and intermediate to dark in pigmentation; Dinarics are most common in the Balkans, especially in the Dinaric Alps - the Dinaric racial belt stretches from northern France through southern Germany and the Swiss Alps, and blends into the south-eastern European populations

http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm57.showMessage?topicID=67.top ic

Dinarica

"Dinarica"-is an international free discussion forum focused on scientific exploration of Dinaric Race from the perspectives of biological,physical anthropology,evolutionary biology,population genetics,bioarchaeologic,ethno-psychological academic fields as well as other kind of studies which in the environment of civilized,plural and free discussion shall enrich the field of Dinaric studies

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/186691

cannistraro
Tuesday, March 16th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Do Dinarics come from Syria? What is the origin of this type.

And what is an example of a relatively pure Dinarid? Is it Vlade Divac?

Vlad
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 01:41 AM
Actually, I think Dinarics come from the Balkans. Before the arrival of the Greeks, that area was inhabitted by a prehistoric people called the Pelazgians and these people were all dinaric, according to skulls found from that era.

The thing about dinarics is that they are more varied than other subraces, for example you can have a person who looks nordic, or med, yet upon closer inspection he is actually dinaric.

Awar
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Dinaric is a very broad, too broad category. The Dinarics can be found from Spain to Uzbekistan, and from Norway to Arabia. These people are not mutually related genetically.

They're mostly a result of the process of dinaricization.

Vlade Divac is more of an dinaricized atlanto-med.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 05:19 AM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/troeplate35.htm

old aryan
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 07:29 AM
Actually, I think Dinarics come from the Balkans. Before the arrival of the Greeks, that area was inhabitted by a prehistoric people called the Pelazgians and these people were all dinaric, according to skulls found from that era.

The thing about dinarics is that they are more varied than other subraces, for example you can have a person who looks nordic, or med, yet upon closer inspection he is actually dinaric.
Were they then contemporaries of the Minoans, would you say?

cannistraro
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Dinaric is a very broad, too broad category. The Dinarics can be found from Spain to Uzbekistan, and from Norway to Arabia. These people are not mutually related genetically.

They're mostly a result of the process of dinaricization.

Vlade Divac is more of an dinaricized atlanto-med.Then that is an arbitrary category imo! That is incorrect since it includes people such as native americans as well. The indo europeans mostly populated Europe, but some were Middle Easterners(Syria), I'd say darker types with more prominent noses like Dinarid is partly descended from middle easterners.

Awar
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 12:25 AM
Then that is an arbitrary category imo! That is incorrect since it includes people such as native americans as well. The indo europeans mostly populated Europe, but some were Middle Easterners(Syria), I'd say darker types with more prominent noses like Dinarid is partly descended from middle easterners.

For such things, you'd have to look at some DNA maps of Europe and Middle East. Phenotype is far from accurate.

cannistraro
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 12:34 AM
I disagree. They say African groups as nigerians could cluster with north europeans closer then other groups. I prefer going by phenotype.:)

Imo, is really what matters!

Graeme
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 12:19 PM
I will quote or misquote Coon here,European Dinarics are the result of hybridisation between Mediterraneans and Alpines in a certain mix or ratio without recrossing back with pure Meds or Alpines. The Med sub race could be Atlanto-Med or gracile Med or even depigmented Meds. The hybridisation process involves longheads and shortheads and is not dependent on race and will occur whenever the ratio of the mix is correct.

I do not necessarily accept that hypothesis and I am not a fan of Coon, but it seems logical enough.

Awar
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 06:39 PM
I will quote or misquote Coon here,European Dinarics are the result of hybridisation between Mediterraneans and Alpines in a certain mix or ratio without recrossing back with pure Meds or Alpines. The Med sub race could be Atlanto-Med or gracile Med or even depigmented Meds. The hybridisation process involves longheads and shortheads and is not dependent on race and will occur whenever the ratio of the mix is correct.

I do not necessarily accept that hypothesis and I am not a fan of Coon, but it seems logical enough.

Righty-o because dinarics appear in most regions that border both the longheads and shortheads :)

cannistraro
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 06:41 PM
But what the hell are alpines?? Just people with shortheads? How is that a proper race then? What specifically are they from and what are they mixed with. How did they originate

Awar
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 08:11 PM
I think you have a zillion pages on alpinids right here at Skadi.

Razmig
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 07:46 AM
according to anthropologists, a dinaric is an armenoid/alpine...and were originally from the caucus...later admixtures formed in the balkans...armenoids and dinarics both heavily absorbed med pigmentation

Euclides
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Do Dinarics come from Syria? What is the origin of this type.

And what is an example of a relatively pure Dinarid? Is it Vlade Divac?


Dinarica

"Dinarica"-is an international free discussion forum focused on scientific exploration of Dinaric Race from the perspectives of biological,physical anthropology,evolutionary biology,population genetics,bioarchaeologic,ethno-psychological academic fields as well as other kind of studies which in the environment of civilized,plural and free discussion shall enrich the field of Dinaric studies

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/186691

Frans_Jozef
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 04:26 PM
The Dinaric type in the Balkan doesn't enter into the picture until the Middle Ages.

Occipital flattening properly emerges initially in NW Europe with the chalcolithic tall brachycephalics of the Scanian-Borreby area, the Bell Beakers(a NW type with lower face and decrepit vault height, and the SE type is associated with the Norico-Lorraine type with longer face; both have a reasonable saillant nose) between Rhine and Elbe and finally the Bronze Age deposits of Singen and Adlerberg.

Vojvoda
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 04:44 PM
The Dinaric type in the Balkan doesn't enter into the picture until the Middle Ages.

What!? Dinarids are not "indigenous" to the Balkans? The bones that were found in sites like Lepenski Vir belonged to Neolithic and Mesolithic types,you probably know that anyway :).Wouldn't the blending of those types make a Dinarid?

Frans_Jozef
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 05:00 PM
What!? Dinarids are not "indigenous" to the Balkans? The bones that were found in sites like Lepenski Vir belonged to Neolithic and Mesolithic types,you probably know that anyway :).Wouldn't the blending of those types make a Dinarid?

Have I said that they migrated from Hither Asia or Cyprus? :)
The Dinarids developed probably in situ, but much later in Christian epochs.
And furthermore, there is ample proof elsewhere in neolithic and chalcolithic Europe that where meds and alpines co-exist, intermingling doesn't lead to the process of dinarisation.

Though among the Cromagnoids of the Kurgan peopleone finds subjects with a short head and broad, flattish faces, Riquet regards them as ancestral of the Turanids.
But that's nothing to concern about for my Slavo-Illyrian friends here. ;)

Vojvoda
Monday, March 22nd, 2004, 05:52 AM
The Dinarids developed probably in situ

Of course, hence the name Dinarid (http://www.slider.com/enc/15000/Dinaric_Alps.htm) :D But, according to you Dinarids didn't enter into the picture until the Middle Ages,years after the Slavic migrations to the Balkans.Maybe they're not related to Armenoids after all.The question now is what types were the "Illyrian" tribes predominantely.The Dinarid type is still a mystery IMO :D

Sksob
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 04:46 AM
Do Dinarids descend from Armenoid types or is it the other way around? I was under the impression that they are a sub-Nordic group who have live in Central and Eastern Europe for millenia. So racially speaking are the of non-European extraction or are they native European stock?

aksel
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 06:01 AM
I found this on another forum. "According to Czekanowski, there are four basic white races, located schematically at the corners of the square; and six sub-races or mixed types, which result from the crossing of the four fundamental ones. These races and sub-races, with their Greek letters, may be listed as follows":
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/viii62.jpg


This is a Dinaric(from The Living Races of Europe by Lundman):
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/lundraces-fig4b.jpg


This is an Armenid from the same book:
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/lundraces-fig9.jpg

The attached picture is a picture of a Dinaric German. The following picture is a picture of my Dad, who some will claim is an Armenid since he is Armenian. Notice the similarities between the two men.
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~kgrigory/anthro/p10.jpg


I believe Armenids and Dinarics are very similar if not the same. Armenoids seem to have originated in Anatolia which is on the border with Europe anyway. Here's a quote from Coon's book, " Asiatic-Dinarics are usually called Armenoids, although the distinction is arbitrary"
I guess you should judge for yourself. Both are obviously Caucasoid subraces.

Siegfried
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 09:01 AM
I don't think Czekanowski's theories are correct; I prefer Coon's. According to him, both the Armenoid and Dinarid types are not so much actual subraces as physical types that occur when a brachycephalic Caucasoid is mixed with a Mediterranean (in the broadest sense of that word) physical type. The European Dinarid is then the result of a European Alpine blending with a European Mediterranean. In the case of the Armenoid, the Irano-Afghan type is thought to provide the 'Mediterranean' strain. The brachycephalic part of the equation is provided by Alpinoids of a variety that would not be at home in Central Europe. Dinarids and Armenoids are thus racially distinct types, even though the mechanics behind the creation of the types are similar (thus explaing the relative phenotypic proximity and the genetic gap).

Siegfried
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 09:08 AM
Plates from Coon's book.

Dinarid
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15093

Armenoid
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15089

aksel
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 03:02 PM
Siegfried,
I see where you are coming from. It boils down to personal opinion though because there are anthropologist who hold different views on the topic.

Here are some more plates from Coon's book.

Dinaric
http://web.archive.org/web/20030720064545/http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Images/p39f6.gif

Armenoid
http://web.archive.org/web/20030720012613/http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Images/p42f4.gif

norda
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 06:35 PM
Genetic closeness of Caucasus, Turkey, parts of Balkan and Italy is already common knowledge. Moreover the uniting element is not proper Caucasoid source but (Neolithic or rather Bronze Age) Orientalid - “Semitic” element.
Taking it into consideration anthropologic types: dinarics, litorids, armenoids and yes orientalids must be related.
Well indeed armenoidal element as is not best contemporary anthropologic name as Armenia/Caucasus were only transit areas of migrations from Near East and probable place of primary brachycephalization.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11733

SouthernBoy
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 03:08 AM
The definition of Armenid I have read is that it is a reduced Dinarid. Norda, I disagree. The original Orientalids were strongly dolichocephalic. The most likely source of brachycephalization would be Alpinoids.

I am also of the opinion that there must have been a population of Upper Paleolithic survivors that was absorbed by/or perhaps evolved into what is called Dinarid. Dinarids as a whole are alot taller than their neighbors, especially in Monte Negro. Norda, do you mean that the brachycephaly is from a Mongoloid influence?

Vojvoda
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 03:21 AM
I am also of the opinion that there must have been a population of Upper Paleolithic survivors that was absorbed by/or perhaps evolved into what is called Dinarid. Dinarids as a whole are alot taller than their neighbors, especially in Montenegro. It's also possible that Borreby or Borreby-like type is the root race of Dinarids.Frans and volksdeutscher would know more about that though ;)

SouthernBoy
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 03:25 AM
I will have to agree with you on that!

norda
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 04:04 PM
The definition of Armenid I have read is that it is a reduced Dinarid. Norda, I disagree. The original Orientalids were strongly dolichocephalic. The most likely source of brachycephalization would be Alpinoids.

I am also of the opinion that there must have been a population of Upper Paleolithic survivors that was absorbed by/or perhaps evolved into what is called Dinarid. Dinarids as a whole are alot taller than their neighbors, especially in Monte Negro. Norda, do you mean that the brachycephaly is from a Mongoloid influence?
You should remember that CI and also other anthropologic traits are not so stable as people think. They are also not very helpful comparing to contemporary genetics, especially taking into consideration hundreds and thousands of years.
According to Debec (1948 tab 68-70) Bronze Age Caucasus (sculls of Armenia, Azerbejdzan and Georgia) were dolichocephalic and predominately orientalid (up to 53% -Wanke 1958). No doubt that this inhabitants left clear genetic influence in this region. “Mongoloic” or East Asian genetic influence in Europe is rather very limited so earlier anthropologic theories considering presence of such influx should be rather refused. There are other probable sources of Caucasus brachycephalization- Iranians and on the north of Caucasus steppe Sarmatians.

yamato
Friday, December 31st, 2004, 09:39 PM
are dinarids a subrace of alpinid or a mix of alpinid and/or nordids?

SouthernBoy
Friday, December 31st, 2004, 10:14 PM
They are independent of both.

Rhydderch
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 02:47 AM
They are independent of both.
I agree; although if I remember rightly some claim they are a mixture of Alpines and Atlanto-Meds.

Huzar
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 05:03 PM
I personally, don't think that DINARIC type is a mix between Alpinid + Med. Is totally wrong. Many phisycal components don't coincide at all


The truth is more complicated. Probably a fusion between two ancient type : the Borreby, from central Europe like brachycephalizing factor and the big Atlanto-Med like leptosomic component. This could explain several things : The big height the robustness the flattened occipiut etc.

Agrippa
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 06:05 PM
I personally, don't think that DINARIC type is a mix between Alpinid + Med. Is totally wrong. Many phisycal components don't coincide at all


The truth is more complicated. Probably a fusion between two ancient type : the Borreby, from central Europe like brachycephalizing factor and the big Atlanto-Med like leptosomic component. This could explain several things : The big height the robustness the flattened occipiut etc.

That is my opinion too. Brachycephalised Cromagnoids ("Borreby" like" specialised on and probably there was some Atlantomediterranid or Nordid component involved. Its a specialisation for the higher, mountainous and dry areas, otherwise not too dissimilar if compared with Nordids and Atlantomediterranids - rather mobile or seminomadic herder- or farmer-warriors, mostly both.
I think its rather similar specialisation like in the earlier Armenids, which partly degnerated in an "urban and social active form" in the Near East, unlike the Mtebids and certain areas in which still the tall, leptomorphic and more progressive (mostly herder) types live (Mtebid/Kaukasid f.e.).

Huzar
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 06:53 PM
That is my opinion too. Brachycephalised Cromagnoids ("Borreby" like" specialised on and probably there was some Atlantomediterranid or Nordid component involved. Its a specialisation for the higher, mountainous and dry areas, otherwise not too dissimilar if compared with Nordids and Atlantomediterranids - rather mobile or seminomadic herder- or farmer-warriors, mostly both.
I think its rather similar specialisation like in the earlier Armenids, which partly degnerated in an "urban and social active form" in the Near East, unlike the Mtebids and certain areas in which still the tall, leptomorphic and more progressive (mostly herder) types live (Mtebid/Kaukasid f.e.).
Right. i see Dinarics more like worriors than like other.......

White Falcon
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 09:10 PM
I also say Brachycephalised Cromagnoids , and nothing more.

Few Croat Cromagnoids(not in pure form of course) with "affinity" to Dinarid.

http://www.goranonline.com/picgallery/034.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/nickbrozovich/pavelic/Pavelic7.jpg

http://www.nrk.no/img/378783.jpeg

http://www.ladocfrancaise.gouv.fr/dossier_actualite/serbie_montenegro/images/tito.jpg

Huzar
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 10:27 PM
I also say Brachycephalised Cromagnoids , and nothing more.

Few Croat Cromagnoids(not in pure form of course) with "affinity" to Dinarid.

http://www.goranonline.com/picgallery/034.jpg



The man in the pic , seems NORIC rather than Dinaric

Zrinski
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 10:48 PM
The man in the pic , seems NORIC rather than Dinaric
The "man" in the pic is typical Dinaric with some posibble minor admixture.
Everyone who voted for "sister armenoid/near eastern" is plain and simple ignorrant. Dinarids and Armenoids have nothing in common...nothing at all.

Agrippa
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Yes, the pictured man is pred. Dinarid, of a more robust variant - but still typical, though thats not that good to see from this picture alone.
Whats interesting, is, that the most typical Dinarids have almost always long legs and relatively short arms...

Odin Biggles
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Everyone who voted for "sister armenoid/near eastern" is plain and simple ignorrant. Dinarids and Armenoids have nothing in common...nothing at all.
Yes i'm wondering the same thing, ridiculous result.

White Falcon
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Yes i'm wondering the same thing, ridiculous result.
It's an old thread, look at the dates before it's bumped,
a lot of things were brought to light since then.

Agrippa
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Not to forget that the number of options is rather limited and many people, like in the political reality, take the option which is at least "more likely", "smaller evil".

Huzar
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 11:59 PM
The "man" in the pic is typical Dinaric with some posibble minor admixture.
Everyone who voted for "sister armenoid/near eastern" is plain and simple ignorrant. Dinarids and Armenoids have nothing in common...nothing at all.

On the "Armenoid connection" i agree. About the typical dinarid on the tennis player of the pic i must say that is lighter than what many usually think of dinarics. Many imagine dinarics as dark as mediterraneans, but probably this is wrong.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:10 AM
Yes i'm wondering the same thing, ridiculous result.

Actually Dinarids are considered together with the Armenids and another type, the Mtebids, as Taurid with an origin in the highlands of West Asia.

Dinarids are less distinct than the Armenids but they have a phenotype influenced by Neolithic immigrants.

Agrippa
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Dinarids are less distinct than the Armenids but they have a phenotype influenced by Neolithic immigrants.

How would you describe, compare the involved Neolithic type in question?

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:35 AM
How would you describe, compare the involved Neolithic type in question?

Essentially I would say they were proto-Armenid immigrants together with some Natufids, migrating northwards as farmers with West Asian crops and assimilating Mesolithic populations.

Agrippa
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:40 AM
Thats a possibility, but whats with the time in between and why appeared higher numbers of Dinarids so late with rather different population in between...Difficult question so or so and I have my doubts about Protoarmenid types existence - with an inherent tendency towards short skulled-planoccipital brachycephalecy - surviving meso- to dolichocephalic in many regions and appearing suddenly out of different populations. Though a common element of all Taurids cannot be excluded.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:58 AM
Thats a possibility, but whats with the time in between and why appeared higher numbers of Dinarids so late with rather different population in between...Difficult question so or so and I have my doubts about Protoarmenid types existence - with an inherent tendency towards short skulled-planoccipital brachycephalecy - surviving meso- to dolichocephalic in many regions and appearing suddenly out of different populations. Though a common element of all Taurids cannot be excluded.

Cranial Index is of limited phylogenetic importance among moderns because it is associated with environment and can be predicted by climate. But Taurids can be identified by their facial features, which clearly associate European Dinarids with West Asia.

Agrippa
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 02:14 AM
Cranial Index is of limited phylogenetic importance among moderns because it is associated with environment and can be predicted by climate. But Taurids can be identified by their facial features, which clearly associate European Dinarids with West Asia.

I think thats more obvious for Alpinoids because the trend of gracilisation, infantilisation and allometric correlations can explain it, but for Dinarids? Whats your explanation for the turriform (high-short-rather narrow) skull type?
I would have said that the nasal shape is clearly influenced by the climate and topography too probably (higher, dry air etc.).

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 02:59 AM
I think thats more obvious for Alpinoids because the trend of gracilisation, infantilisation and allometric correlations can explain it, but for Dinarids? Whats your explanation for the turriform (high-short-rather narrow) skull type?

I didnt say that all the differences or similarities in cranial shape can be explained by climate, just that a tendency to brachycephaly can probably be predicted by location, and may not even be useful for identifying species/subspecies of archaic.

Other features seperating Dinarids and Armenids are clearly phylogenetic (the greater gracile, Mediterranean element in the phenotype of the Dinarids).


I would have said that the nasal shape is clearly influenced by the climate and topography too probably (higher, dry air etc.).

I dont think midfacial projection is all that related to climate, but is retained from archaic Western Eurasian ancestors.

Agrippa
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:09 AM
There are climatic correlations to nasal shape though the main question should be when came this feature up if we're speaking about it in this context. I made a thread on Stirpes about this, but most attachments are gone unfortunately:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=2455
If there is some interest I will correct that and make a similar thread here too. In higher and dry regions with a hot, moderate or moderate-cold climate noses are generally more prominent, longer and higher bridged though there are other factors involved too.

For the headshape I agree with broad skulls for which can be more reasons as I mentioned above (extreme cold-allometric correlations, gracilisation-infantilisation), but the short-high-narrow skulls are something more specific and can't be fully explained with climate though this shape occurs more often in mountainous areas.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:27 AM
There are climatic correlations to nasal shape though the main question should be when came this feature up if we're speaking about it in this context. I made a thread on Stirpes about this, but most attachments are gone unfortunately:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=2455
If there is some interest I will correct that and make a similar thread here too. In higher and dry regions with a moderate or moderate-cold climate noses are generally more prominent, longer and higher bridged though there are other factors involved too.

In neanderthaloids it appears that the midface looks more prominent than it is because the lower face retreats rather than the lower face simply retreating because the midface is "pulled forwards".

This suggests that the nasal projection is not an extreme adaptation to warming inhaled air and I expect the same to be true in Caucasoid populations showing a prominent midface and a retreating lower facial region.

János Hunyadi
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:33 AM
I choose other.

I've always been under the impression that Dinarids are aboriginal Europeans who have dwelled within the Highlands of Central Europe in a continuim from France to the Balkans for Millenia.

Dinarids are also found in Switzerland, periperal Germany (The Rhineland), Northern Italy, Southern Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Romania, and Western Ukraine.

Dinarids are in now way limited to the Balkans and they certainly aren't the genetic and biological remnants of more "recent invaders".

János Hunyadi
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:43 AM
Dinarids are fully European. I've known plenty of people from the Near East in my life and very few of them resemble Central European Dinarics in any shape and form, both racially and culturally. Dinarics are Near Eastern in the same way Alpines are mongoloid- it's a very, very distant relationship.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 06:49 AM
I choose other.

I've always been under the impression that Dinarids are aboriginal Europeans who have dwelled within the Highlands of Central Europe in a continuim from France to the Balkans for Millenia.

Dinarids are also found in Switzerland, periperal Germany (The Rhineland), Northern Italy, Southern Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Romania, and Western Ukraine.

Dinarids are in now way limited to the Balkans and they certainly aren't the genetic and biological remnants of more "recent invaders".

Agreed. I note, many associate too strictly the dinarid type to southern Europe, while it's notably rapresented in Central Europe.



Are we sure the Dinaric being a Southern European ? Why not Central european ? Indeed, are we sure that the leptosomic component is Mediterranean(like many think) ? Why not Nordic ? Afterall, Dinarids are very tall, leptosomic, have long legs and more important, an elongated facial structure, just like nordics. The pigmentation is notably lighter, than the "classic" Gracile-mediterranean type and the robustness (dinarid type is the tallest on the European continent, and perhaps, the most robust, except the UP types) is really too great to postulate a Mediterranean or Armenid origin.

Therefore among the several genesis theories, why not a NORDIC + some other for Dinarids ?

Agrippa, Atlanto- Med, is it possible ?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 06:56 AM
Something has been bothering me for awhile. For a moment, forget pigmentation, hair or anything but the skull. Now imagine a Dinaric skull. Imagine the face and the anterior part of the skull, forget the back for a moment. Now, what does it most resemble? In my mind it most resembles a gracile Nordic--same forehead, long face, chin, stretched nose, eyes, it is all there. It is the rear flattening which people concentrate on rather than the front. There must be a relationship between Dinarics and Nordics. Perhaps Dinarics were the agricultural people who came up the Danube 10,000 years ago and into Northern Europe.

Combine this Dinaric with a Corded skull, and it has all the features and variability of the Nordic.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 07:02 AM
Something has been bothering me for awhile. For a moment, forget pigmentation, hair or anything but the skull. Now imagine a Dinaric skull. Imagine the face and the anterior part of the skull, forget the back for a moment. Now, what does it most resemble? In my mind it most resembles a gracile Nordic--same forehead, long face, chin, stretched nose, eyes, it is all there. It is the rear flattening which people concentrate on rather than the front. There must be a relationship between Dinarics and Nordics. Perhaps Dinarics were the agricultural people who came up the Danube 10,000 years ago and into Northern Europe.

Combine this Dinaric with a Corded skull, and it has all the features and variability of the Nordic.

Exactly what i think, Doc.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 07:53 AM
There must be a relationship between Dinarics and Nordics. Perhaps Dinarics were the agricultural people who came up the Danube 10,000 years ago and into Northern Europe.

Nordics are simply semi-gracilised Cro-Magnid types, and there are such robust types in the Balkans so I dont have a problem with this explanation.

But the facial features of Dinarids are Taurid and were contributed by the West Asian farmers who arrived in the Neolithic. There are Dinarids in Asia as well as in Europe and Dinarids should be considered as a part of the Taurid, as Lundman claimed them to be. The Dinarids are the intergrading between West Asian and European populations.

János Hunyadi
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 08:21 AM
The Dinarids are the intergrading between West Asian and European populations.
If so, then why are Dinarids so widely dispersed across the Highlands of Central Europe in a continuim form France to the Balkans?

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 09:43 AM
If so, then why are Dinarids so widely dispersed across the Highlands of Central Europe in a continuim form France to the Balkans?

The Neolithic settlers had a large effect on genetic relationships, because they were large numbers of farmers outbreeding Mesolithic populations. in fact given the examples of the Bantu expansion and the Europen expansion into places like North America and Australia, its surprising the ethnic replacement by farmers wasnt even more total. What happened was that enough Mesolithic inhabitants learned farming in time to breed more soldiers (like some North American cultures learned to copy Europeans), so genetcally theres a cline through south-east Europe into the rest of Europe as Neolithic settler influence decreases by distance from West Asia.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 11:04 AM
But the facial features of Dinarids are Taurid and were contributed by the West Asian farmers who arrived in the Neolithic. There are Dinarids in Asia as well as in Europe and Dinarids should be considered as a part of the Taurid, as Lundman claimed them to be. The Dinarids are the intergrading between West Asian and European populations.

Taurid yes, but only partially. I'm uncertain if consider them Taurid in the "classic" sense

Lundman was an excellent anthropologist, but i'm skeptical about some of his theories about populations living very far from his location (scandinavia). We know, many authors pay more attention on their own country or Area, than on others. Like Glenlivet has said time ago, Lundman was the best for Scandinavia but not for all areas of Europe. Biasutti, Skerlj and Lebzelter had different ideas on the dinarids origin, for example.


Anyway, the Taurid origin doesn't exclude the nordic component logically : famous polish anthropologist Czekanovsky, labelled the dinarid like a Nordic - Taurid mix.

Perhaps, the intergrading between west-asians and Europeans, you cite, could mean : "Taurids" from w.Asia - "Nordics", from Europe.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 11:24 AM
Anyway, the Taurid origin doesn't exclude the nordic component logically : famous polish anthropologist Czekanovsky, labelled the dinarid like a Nordic - Taurid mix.

Perhaps, the intergrading between west-asians and Europeans, you cite, could mean : "Taurids" from w.Asia - "Nordics", from Europe.

I agree but by using Taurid Im just following Lundman's definition which includes the Armenids, Dinarids and Mtebids.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 11:42 AM
I agree but by using Taurid Im just following Lundman's definition which includes the Armenids, Dinarids and Mtebids.

Probably the Dinarids are the less distinct type category inside the Lundman's "Taurid" group, cause its European component (for ex. the hypotetical Nordic element like gracializing agent).


Btw, what means "Mtebids" ?

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Probably the Dinarids are the less distinct type category inside the Lundman's "Taurid" group, cause its European component (for ex. the hypotetical Nordic element like gracializing agent).

Youre right, Dinarids are less Taurid than Armenids and the Mtebids represent a third Taurid type found in the Caucasus mountains that are less distinct than Armenids too.

White Falcon
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Dinarids are less distinct than the Armenids but they have a phenotype influenced by Neolithic immigrants.
If someone claims that Neolithic settlers or Mediterranean component is also one of ancestral type of Dinarid,
aren't we to expect larger influence of Neolithic markers on Croatian population
of Herzegovina and Dalmatian hinterland , where Dinaric race is predominant,
and where Neolithic markers are almost absent displaying frequency of only 9% of E3b1 Y-chromosome lineage.

The rest being I1b* 71% ("Dinaric modal haplotype") , R1a ~14% and R1b ~3%.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 02:08 PM
If someone claims that Neolithic settlers or Mediterranean component is also one of ancestral type of Dinarid,
aren't we to expect larger influence of Neolithic markers on Croatian population
of Herzegovina and Dalmatian hinterland , where Dinaric race is predominant,
and where Neolithic markers are almost absent displaying frequency of only 9% of E3b1 Y-chromosome lineage.

The rest being I1b* 71% ("Dinaric modal haplotype") , R1a ~14% and R1b ~3%.

According to Cavalli-Sforza, who did a dendrogram of genetic distances between populations, Yugoslavia is only slightly closer to the majority of Europeans than to West Asians. This can be interpreted as decreasing admixture from Neolithic farmers moving into Europe.

But because only certtain loci affect the racial features racial typology uses below the major race or subspecies of man, and are subject to local conditions, local race cant be predicted precisely by looking at parental lineages or even the genetic distances between populations.

There are UP types in the Balkans as far south as Greece, so I imagine it depends which populations are being sampled. The farmers wouuld have preferred the best land in the lowlands, and the more mountainous regions would be left to hunter-gatherers, who later adopted pastoralism.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 02:28 PM
I don't dubt of genetic researches or other, but honestly, 4 years ago i went in slovenia and Austria and i noted that the two pop. being almost equal. Perhaps the same would be between Austria and north-croatia.

Rhydderch
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:13 PM
The "man" in the pic is typical Dinaric with some posibble minor admixture.I actually don't see much Dinaric in him. He has a clearly Atlanto-Mediterranean influence though; this can be seen in the small, dark eyes, the facial form, fairly low orbits and thin, bony (but not prominent) nose


Everyone who voted for "sister armenoid/near eastern" is plain and simple ignorrant. Dinarids and Armenoids have nothing in common...nothing at all.Yes, I've always found little similarity between the two. Certainly there are points of similarity, but I don't think they're very significant.

Zrinski
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Many imagine dinarics as dark as mediterraneans, but probably this is wrong. Thats one of the main problems as well. The thing is that Dinarids are not very dark in pigmentation as people think....they are in fact lighter than other Meds not to mention Armenoids who are by far darker in pigmentation.

@Celtic Tiger - you are right. There is no difference between for example Slovenia, Austria and Northern Croatia. IN fact also Istria and northern Adriatic area is also virtually indistinguishable. The only one by far Dianroid/Med is Dalmatia(with Dalmatian islands and hinterland) and also Lika, Krbava and Herzegovina(in Bosnia-Herzegovina).

fms panzerfaust
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Essentially I would say they were proto-Armenid immigrants together with some Natufids, migrating northwards as farmers with West Asian crops and assimilating Mesolithic populations.
What is a Mtebid and Natufid? How they look like? Some of these classifications are funny. :)

fms panzerfaust
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 05:07 PM
My opinion is: dinaric is dinaric, and nothing more. They're not a mixing of alpine with med, but a distinct type.

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 06:23 PM
My opinion is: dinaric is dinaric, and nothing more. They're not a mixing of alpine with med, but a distinct type.

Maybe. There are many theories, afterall

Huzar
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 06:24 PM
Thats one of the main problems as well. The thing is that Dinarids are not very dark in pigmentation as people think....they are in fact lighter than other Meds not to mention Armenoids who are by far darker in pigmentation.
.


Right

C. Coon found 70% of light and mixed eyes in Croatia, and a blondism rate of 20-25% in Slovenia

Rhydderch
Saturday, July 9th, 2005, 04:54 AM
My opinion is: dinaric is dinaric, and nothing more. They're not a mixing of alpine with med, but a distinct type.Yes, I think they are as distinct a type as any other, definitely not a 'process' in my opinion.

White Falcon
Saturday, July 9th, 2005, 01:18 PM
According to Cavalli-Sforza, who did a dendrogram of genetic distances between populations, Yugoslavia is only slightly closer to the majority of Europeans than to West Asians. This can be interpreted as decreasing admixture from Neolithic farmers moving into Europe.
The study where "Yugoslavia"(Serbia and Montenegro) was sampled is outdated, since old nomenclature was used , namely super haplogroup HG2, which was not further divided and encompassed Paleolithic I* together with Neolithic groups.


But because only certtain loci affect the racial features racial typology uses below the major race or subspecies of man, and are subject to local conditions, local race cant be predicted precisely by looking at parental lineages or even the genetic distances between populations.

There are UP types in the Balkans as far south as Greece, so I imagine it depends which populations are being sampled. The farmers wouuld have preferred the best land in the lowlands, and the more mountainous regions would be left to hunter-gatherers, who later adopted pastoralism.
I agree that Y-chromosome doesn't affect the racial features per se,
but assertion was made that Neolithic immigrants affected pre-Neolithic population which produced Dinaric sub-race.
Which is hard for me to believe since Dinaric zone displays absence of Neolithic markers.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, July 9th, 2005, 01:39 PM
The study where "Yugoslavia"(Serbia and Montenegro) was sampled is outdated, since old nomenclature was used , namely super haplogroup HG2, which was not further divided and encompassed Paleolithic I* together with Neolithic groups.

This wasnt about parental haplogroups, it was about the genetic distances.

Huzar
Sunday, July 10th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Yes, I think they are as distinct a type as any other, definitely not a 'process' in my opinion.

I agree. Anyway, in conclusion, imo, there are THREE possible explainations to Dinarid formation :


1) UP-Borreby + Atlanto-Med

2) Nordic + Taurid

3) Distinct, independent origin from any other group ("original" type, without connections with other types)


NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case. Not Armenoid.

Scholar
Sunday, July 10th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Agreeable, I'm certainly not Dinaric.

Edwin
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 06:46 AM
I agree. Anyway, in conclusion, imo, there are THREE possible explainations to Dinarid formation :


1) UP-Borreby + Atlanto-Med

2) Nordic + Taurid

3) Distinct, independent origin from any other group ("original" type, without connections with other types)


NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case. Not Armenoid.

What do you think about this? ------

Taurid + Cro-Magnoid (usually Borreby or Alpinoid) = true Dinarid

Taurid + Cro-Magnoid + Mediterranid or Nordid = common Dinarid

In this scheme, the third component, be it Mediterranean or Nordic, is not required in the formation of Dinaric stock. And if it is present, it is never dominant. With Mediterranid, the individual might be called Sudinarid, and with Nordid, rightly called Nordinarid. We lack a term for the former, and the use of Noric for the latter is improper :D

Gareth
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:49 AM
NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case.
Neithertheless is the difference between Alpinid and Dinarid in Southern Germany rather fluent. Both of them have a Dalofaelid affinity (and some Dalofaelids look more like an Alpinid-Nordid-Dinarid blend) so Dinarid admixture of the Alpinids doesn't have to mean that Alpinids created the Dinarid by simple admixture. Coon was at least right that these phenotypes occur at the same places. The local Dinarids share many facial traits with the local Alpinids but also have a more convex nose, flatter occiput, more compressed clear-cut facial structure, different hair-texture and sometimes brownish skin with a tendency to thin wrinkles. The SW German Dinarics don't have Baltic features like bulging cheekbones, high vaults, heavy jaws, broad full lips, elevated eyebrows, chubby noses etc. Also many of the old people here (mostly Alpinids) have rather coarse large facial features with a still harmoniously protruding mouth region and teeth that resemble pebbles, which I would attribute to a variant of Coon's Bruenn strain that he saw there, just the facial relief is not so present.

What stands out from both Alpinids and Dinarids are the Scando-Nordids, which still look like they came right away from Scandinavia, albeit shorter in height and more gracile, regardless of the typical features and depigmention being present. Maybe this is the reason Coon called the SW Germans the "most Nordid of all" and he also had a fine-boned Osterdal Nordid in Norway.

The first figure of this plate by the anthropologist István Kiszely is a very good example of a Dinarid:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/153/escanear00061wh.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=escanear00061wh.jpg)

Guenther's examples of Dinarid, scanned by Agrippa:
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8964/dinaridegnther11rw.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dinaridegnther11rw.jpg)http ://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2845/dinaridegnther29de.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dinaridegnther29de.jpg)http ://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4537/gnthersdinarids6ml.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gnthersdinarids6ml.jpg)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3653/dinaridkoerper15ql.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dinaridkoerper15ql.jpg)http ://img218.imageshack.us/img218/844/dinaridkoerper23gc.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dinaridkoerper23gc.jpg)

Many pictures of Balkan dwellers and Dinarics:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=3476&page=2

I downloaded most images of Serbians from this site with a tool ('Offline Explorer' is similar):
http://default.co.yu/~bc/slk/IBG/

Croats:
http://www.glas-koncila.hr/galerije/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=1

Southern Croatian students, from near Dubrovnik:
http://www.matura-hr.com/generacija2003_04/ploce/srednja/4e/index.html
Northern Croatian students, from near the border with Hungary:
http://www.matura-hr.com/generacija2003_04/koprivnica/gimnazija/4b/index.html

Photos of Alpinids and Dinarids from my region, I shot most of them few days ago when I took pictures of my mother's choir (she leads it just as the jogging rally was ran by her for almost two decades):
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8871/dsc000253op.jpg
http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/7681/dsc000103sr.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7397/dsc000060aw.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8271/dsc000312vd.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3848/bassbblingen3ua.jpg
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9400/stuttgart31vi.jpg
http://img275.echo.cx/img275/8403/stuttgart14ss.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9366/stuttgart12yi.jpg
http://img81.echo.cx/img81/6832/swgermany1wb.jpg

More Paleo-Atlantid:
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6606/0hbinlaw7vu.jpg

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Neithertheless is the difference between Alpinid and Dinarid in Southern Germany rather fluent. Both of them have a Dalofaelid affinity (and some Dalofaelids look more like an Alpinid-Nordid-Dinarid blend) so Dinarid admixture of the Alpinids doesn't have to mean that Alpinids created the Dinarid by simple admixture. Coon was at least right that these phenotypes occur at the same places. The local Dinarids share many facial traits with the local Alpinids but also have a more convex nose, flatter occiput, more compressed clear-cut facial structure, different hair-texture and sometimes brownish skin with a tendency to thin wrinkles. The SW German Dinarics don't have Baltic features like bulging cheekbones, high vaults, horizontal grooves running along the nose, heavy jaws, broad full lips, elevated eyebrows, chubby noses etc.
Yes, i agree with you less or more. Surely, Southern Germany (you're from there i suppose) shows a deep phenomenon of fusion between Alpinid tipology and Dinaroid one. Plus a general Nordic influence on the phenotype.

Yes, the difference between Alpinid and dinarid in southern Germany is fluent, but this doesn't necessarly mean that they share a common origin. Perhaps, their mixing in the area, is rather recent

Gareth
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 11:07 AM
Yes, i agree with you less or more. Surely, Southern Germany (you're from there i suppose) shows a deep phenomenon of fusion between Alpinid tipology and Dinaroid one. Plus a general Nordic influence on the phenotype.

Yes, the difference between Alpinid and dinarid in southern Germany is fluent, but this doesn't necessarly mean that they share a common origin. Perhaps, their mixing in the area, is rather recent
Alpinids and Mongolids share the neoteny that led to relative brachycephaly but Mongoloids show a clear tendency to flat occiputs (not only, curvy variants are also found, possibly more frequently too).

And again, I don't believe in "philosophic" interpretations of Mediterranean admixture in Mongoloids leading to a darkening of skin-tone or nasal convexity, even in Eskimos. They have their own spectrum and had time enough to develop such inner-racial differences.

It's less certain how much the Dinarid is a result of admixture or a selective process. Possibly both on the long run.

For the matter of comparison, some partially Dinaricized Irishmen:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/491/gerryalg8by.th.gif (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gerryalg8by.gif)http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4180/ir0783xy.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ir0783xy.jpg)http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2646/guinnessirish3jp.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guinnessirish3jp.jpg)http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6476/ir7bg4hc.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ir7bg4hc.jpg)

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 11:38 AM
It's less certain how much the Dinarid is a result of admixture or a selective process. Possibly both on the long run.

For the matter of comparison, some partially Dinaricized Irishmen:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/491/gerryalg8by.th.gif (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gerryalg8by.gif)http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4180/ir0783xy.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ir0783xy.jpg)




The second pic fits very well with the concept.

Rhydderch
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 02:14 PM
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6476/ir7bg4hc.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ir7bg4hc.jpg)I think this man has a slight influence from a type I've referred to on other threads, such as post 14 here: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5557&page=1&pp=20
His curly hair and some facial features remind me of the type. Due to the hooked nose (not prominent though) and pointed chin, they can be mistaken for Dinarics, when mixed with other influences.

Gareth
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 05:47 PM
What I was trying to say is that the Dinarics of the Balkans may have Baltic admixture in cases but since there do exist Dinarics elsewhere with the major traits but without any Baltic admixture the Dinarics weren't created by that.

This is a Dinaric of the Balkans:
http://img210.echo.cx/img210/6905/lundracesfig4a6vj.jpg
http://img271.echo.cx/img271/5756/lundracesfig4b0jv.jpg
PS: I meant vertical grooves that run parallel along the nose.

Agrippa
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 05:59 PM
What makes the Dinarid features different from those of an brachycephalised Cromagnoid/Borreby? Mainly the nasal shape. The nasal shape is definitely an adaptation to higher, mountainous regions and drier air for which a longer way of the air through the nasal region and mucosa is advantageous for many reasons. All the Taurid types are mainly in mountainous regions and seem to be a Cromagnoid adaptation to this rather extreme areas.
The high rooted, long, prominent and rather aquiline nasal shapes in Europids are concentrated around higher and/or drier regions. Because of this selection for a longer nasal region the whole facial and probably even the skull shape had to be influenced.
I will probably bring some maps and drawings if I have the time to show the concentrations, centres, distribution and morphological tendencies.
Send Cromagnoids with a tendency toward brachycephalisation in the mountains as herder-warriors and wait some generations and you get rather Taurid types, like you get Alpinids in poor areas in which they have to live as farmers.
Some anthropologists said that aquiline and hooked noses are rather dominant in Europids and certain forms could have come into the Cromagnoid gene pool by foreign admixture (Atlantomediterranid?).

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 06:49 PM
What makes the Dinarid features different from those of an brachycephalised Cromagnoid/Borreby? Mainly the nasal shape. The nasal shape is definitely an adaptation to higher, mountainous regions and drier air for which a longer way of the air through the nasal region and mucosa is advantageous for many reasons. All the Taurid types are mainly in mountainous regions and seem to be a Cromagnoid adaptation to this rather extreme areas.
The high rooted, long, prominent and rather aquiline nasal shapes in Europids are concentrated around higher and/or drier regions. Because of this selection for a longer nasal region the whole facial and probably even the skull shape had to be influenced.
I will probably bring some maps and drawings if I have the time to show the concentrations, centres, distribution and morphological tendencies.
Send Cromagnoids with a tendency toward brachycephalisation in the mountains as herder-warriors and wait some generations and you get rather Taurid types, like you get Alpinids in poor areas in which they have to live as farmers.
Some anthropologists said that aquiline and hooked noses are rather dominant in Europids and certain forms could have come into the Cromagnoid gene pool by foreign admixture (Atlantomediterranid?).

It's very interesting.

About the pigmentation (the less relevant element of course) i must say that generalization are often made in the dinarid case ("typically dark type") : Serbia and North Italy, are often reported like "example-areas" of Dinarid type, but the Dinarids from North-Italy , i note, are notably lighter than those from Serbia-Montenegro. I know this cause i live in North Italy and i 've seen many Serbs.

White Falcon
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 07:24 PM
This is a Dinaric of the Balkans:
http://img210.echo.cx/img210/6905/lundracesfig4a6vj.jpg
http://img271.echo.cx/img271/5756/lundracesfig4b0jv.jpg
With that kind of hooked nose, small forehead and elephant ears...

I don't think so.

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Sorry saying this, but the image, seems to me like an exaggeration of Typical supposed traits

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Send Cromagnoids with a tendency toward brachycephalisation in the mountains as herder-warriors and wait some generations and you get rather Taurid types, like you get Alpinids in poor areas in which they have to live as farmers.
Interesting, your theory coincides with Dinarids/Norids predominating in Bosnia, Montenegro while plains areas in Croatia and Serbia have more Alpinid/Cromagnid, nordid and med types.

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:11 PM
better examples?

http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=escanear00061wh.jpg

too bad the attachments don't work...
http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=151720&postcount=5

http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=escanear00061wh.jpg

White Falcon
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:16 PM
better examples?

http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=escanear00061wh.jpg


Why are Dinarics always aged man:P

Dinaric Croat from Drniš (hooked noses are myth)
http://www.drnis.com/home/stoljeca/Ante%20Tomasevic.JPG

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Why are Dinarics always aged man:P I know and Baltids always squint their eyes in pics :D :roll


Dinaric Croat from Drniš (hooked noses are myth)
I think hooked noses are a result of ancient Armenoid admixture like Jan Czekanowski stated. Not all Dinarids look the same , pigmentation wise as well, but hey, to each his own. Hm, Croat from Drniš looks like a 'dinaricized' Borreby imo :scratch

Plates from Czekanowski:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/litarm.jpg
Littoral type (Med/Arm) and Armenoid race

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/dinaric.jpg
Dinaric types (Arm/Nor)

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Interesting, your theory coincides with Dinarids/Norids predominating in Bosnia, Montenegro while plains areas in Croatia and Serbia have more Alpinid/Cromagnid, nordid and med types.

I didn't know this theory effectively. Dinarics and Norics like "mountain race" while other more "gracile" types in the plain areas.

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Here are different sub racial maps:


Deniker
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/map/Deniker.gif

Biasutti
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/map/RB_Euro.gif

Eikstedt
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/map/eickstedt.jpg

Czekanowski
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/map/czekanowskimap.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/map/czekanowski2.jpg

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I admit i like Czekanovsky theory. Or, better, it's more credible to my eyes. To be really sincere, i find Lundman observation on Dinaric sub-type vaguely, pervaded by a touch of "racism". Obviously, it's only my personal impression, nothing more. Perhaps my impression is wrong.

White Falcon
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Not all Dinarids look the same , pigmentation wise as well, but hey, to each his own. Affirmative.


Hm, Croat from Drniš looks like a 'dinaricized' Borreby imo :scratchDon't they all.
http://www.geocities.com/nickbrozovich/pavelic/Pavelic5.jpg
http://www.goranonline.com/picgallery/034.jpg
http://www.hrt.hr/tudjman/slike/photo/tudjman-13.jpg
http://www.drnis.com/home/stoljeca/Ante%20Tomasevic.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/b/bf/Josip_Broz_Tito.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/img/378783.jpeg

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Don't they all.
http://www.geocities.com/nickbrozovich/pavelic/Pavelic5.jpg
http://www.goranonline.com/picgallery/034.jpg
http://www.hrt.hr/tudjman/slike/photo/tudjman-13.jpg
http://www.drnis.com/home/stoljeca/Ante%20Tomasevic.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/b/bf/Josip_Broz_Tito.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/img/378783.jpeg
Maybe Agrippa has a point then :D

Vojvoda
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:54 PM
I admit i like Czekanovsky theory. Or, better, it's more credible to my eyes. To be really sincere, i find Lundman observation on Dinaric sub-type vaguely, pervaded by a touch of "racism". Obviously, it's only my personal impression, nothing more. Perhaps my impression is wrong.
Maybe they(Lundman etc.) just weren't as interested in Slavs and other non-Germanics as much as Czekanowski was :D

Huzar
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 08:54 PM
Deniker chart is very good i think.:thumbup

János Hunyadi
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 12:06 AM
Why are Dinarics always aged man:P

Dinaric Croat from Drniš (hooked noses are myth)
I know and Baltids always squint their eyes in pics :D :roll
Simply because the pre-WW2 examples of such people were mainly compiled by fossilized Anglo-Saxon anthropologists! ;)

János Hunyadi
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Ok, enough examples of elderly Dinarid men from the Balkans, here are some young Dinarid ladies from the Balkans!!:tthumbsup



http://www.jugoslovenka.com/born2befree77/born2befree77_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/born2befree77/born2

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/aleks/aleks_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/lydia/lydia_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/amela/amela_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/darija/darija_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/lara_17/lara_17_1.jpeg

http://www.jugoslovenka.com/dacika/dacika_1.jpeg

http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkansyugoslaviaforum.showMessage?topi cID=249.topic

Gareth
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 01:47 AM
What makes the Dinarid features different from those of an brachycephalised Cromagnoid/Borreby? Mainly the nasal shape. The nasal shape is definitely an adaptation to higher, mountainous regions and drier air for which a longer way of the air through the nasal region and mucosa is advantageous for many reasons. All the Taurid types are mainly in mountainous regions and seem to be a Cromagnoid adaptation to this rather extreme areas.
The high rooted, long, prominent and rather aquiline nasal shapes in Europids are concentrated around higher and/or drier regions. Because of this selection for a longer nasal region the whole facial and probably even the skull shape had to be influenced.
Possibly. I have seen Borrebies that resemble Balkan dwellers and vice versa.

http://img259.echo.cx/img259/3119/osojane0616oo.th.jpg (http://img259.echo.cx/my.php?image=osojane0616oo.jpg)http://img254.echo.cx/img254/16/osojane055gd.th.jpg (http://img254.echo.cx/my.php?image=osojane055gd.jpg)http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/4118/emerald40zs.th.jpg (http://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emerald40zs.jpg)

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=286811&postcount=5
http://img65.echo.cx/img65/6385/juergen6ke.th.jpg (http://img65.echo.cx/my.php?image=juergen6ke.jpg)http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3131/englandtomwilkinson0hx.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=englandtomwilkinson0hx.jpg) http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9776/001faroer1jpg5ei6qo.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=001faroer1jpg5ei6qo.jpg)htt p://img128.imageshack.us/img128/6348/ar4oi.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ar4oi.jpg)http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3358/skjaevelandborreby5md.gif
1. German 2. English 3. Faroer Islands (do they descend from Brits or Scandinavians?) 4. German 5. Norwegian

Triglav
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 02:07 AM
@Celtic Tiger - you are right. There is no difference between for example Slovenia, Austria and Northern Croatia.
Well, I'd venture to say that superficially there is really no difference and the pigmentation of these groups is similar as well. A lot depends on which regions one observes. As a Slovene, I can spot a few differences, though.

Triglav
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 02:14 AM
According to Cavalli-Sforza, who did a dendrogram of genetic distances between populations, Yugoslavia is only slightly closer to the majority of Europeans than to West Asians. This can be interpreted as decreasing admixture from Neolithic farmers moving into Europe.

Which study?

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 03:08 AM
Which study?

I dont remember Triglav, but I have the dendrogram somewhere.

White Falcon
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 04:12 PM
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload1/dinarid2.jpg

Odin Biggles
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 05:08 PM
http://tinypic.com/72c5dc.jpg
http://tinypic.com/72c5qf.jpg

Agrippa
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005, 08:00 PM
http://www.teslasociety.com/patriarch.jpg

http://www.suc.org/culture/history/Draza_Mihailovich/pictures/air_bridge2.jpg

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/01/14/bosnia.war.crimes.03/link.dragan.papic.jpg

Gareth
Monday, September 12th, 2005, 03:15 AM
This man is Dinarid but with the same facial features as his (lower vaulted) Alpinid neighbours:
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/5950/c2pf.th.jpg (http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c2pf.jpg)http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4950/dsc000012by.th.jpg (http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000012by.jpg)

Mediterranid admixture visible in the father, mother a stocky Alpinid, features of the son not fully intermediate:
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6876/dsc000048hn.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000048hn.jpg)http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9169/dsc0000167yh.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0000167yh.jpg)http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9683/dsc000112rr.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000112rr.jpg)

Another picture of the parents:
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/6054/dsc000193yl.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000193yl.jpg)

Dalofaelid-looking:
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/5265/dsc001222vn.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc001222vn.jpg)

Robust features plus big nose:
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/603/dsc001329we.th.jpg (http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc001329we.jpg)

And various other pictures:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8363/dsc001399tr.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc001399tr.jpg)
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/7493/dsc001919rl.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc001919rl.jpg)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9290/dsc001825xu.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc001825xu.jpg)
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5746/dsc000141zi.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000141zi.jpg)
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6311/dsc000076ag.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000076ag.jpg)

Menditar
Thursday, November 24th, 2005, 10:49 AM
Dinaric men or for me ilirian too:

http://www.acb.com/fotos/14422_3_20158_3.jpg http://www.acb.com/fotos_cara/00000713.jpg http://goodyear.adriaticbasket.com/slike/slike-vijesti/matej_mamic.jpg

Nseag
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Dinarid is a Race with own traits,, Non-armenid and non-(med+alpinid)

The problem that is very mixed and is difficult to find pure elements. In some town they must be, I don't believe that they are extinguished and they diluted. The problem that by his location there is much mixed with Orientalid, The Dinarids of more to the west usually don't have blood orientalid but have Nordid and Cro-Magnid influence

Marinus
Thursday, December 11th, 2008, 12:05 AM
Where did they originate?

Soten
Saturday, December 13th, 2008, 01:45 AM
I agree; although if I remember rightly some claim they are a mixture of Alpines and Atlanto-Meds.

I'm no expert, but I was under the impression that they were a mixture of Alpinids and plain ole Mediterraneans. That's why the Balkan coastal areas on up to Austria have so many Dinarid types.

And on origins, I don't know if we can say they really originated from anywhere because they are a product of a process - Dinaricization. But they are mostly associated with the Balkans. I guess anywhere that has Meds meeting Alpinids would be their "origin".

PS. Marinus, what is a Tosk?

Veritas Ĉquitas
Saturday, December 13th, 2008, 01:50 AM
Where did they originate?

Some theories suggest the Dinaric Alps in the Balkans..

frankfurter
Sunday, December 14th, 2008, 04:37 AM
Some theories suggest the Syrian highlands and perhaps neighboring parts of Turkey.