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Vojvoda
Monday, July 21st, 2003, 05:48 PM
"About 8,000 years ago, a wave of change began to flow west across Europe, largely following the Mediterranean coast. Archaeological sites from the time tell of how early Europeans stopped living as hunter-gatherers and started farming, herding animals and settling in villages. That much is certain. But just how this transition took place has remained a hotly debated question. Did farmers from the Middle East move into the region, or did the locals learn for themselves? And if Neolithic farmers did move west from the Fertile Crescent, did they replace the Paleolithic locals? According to a new study published in last week's issue of Science,the Paleolithic locals held their ground.

An international team of researchers, led by Ornella Semino of the University of Pavia and Giuseppe Passarino of Stanford University, tackled the question by studying the Y chromosome, transmitted only from father to son, in 1,007 European men from different geographic areas. On the basis of 22 different variations, or genetic markers, on the Y chromosome, they reconstructed a family tree and found that more than 95 percent of the men belonged to only 10 groups, or haplotypes. Two haplotypes come from a marker called M173, which probably arrived in Europe from Asia about 30,000 years ago and might be linked to the Aurignac culture. Two other haplotypes rely on marker M170, which probably came from the Middle East about 20,000 to 25,000 years ago and coincides with the Gravettian culture. In all, the descendents of these Paleolithic markers accounted for 80 percent of the Y-chromosome variants in modern European men.

As for signs of Neolithic farmers migrating from the Middle East in more recent times, the analysis found that only 20 percent of the current male population bore such markers. The results answer some questions but raise others because they correspond only in part with earlier studies of mitochondrial DNA in European women (mitochondria are inherited through the female line only). A striking difference, for example, is that a female haplogroup that probably arrived from the Middle East 45,000 years ago does not have an equivalent in men. And the female Neolithic haplotypes are not concentrated along the Mediterranean coastline, as are the men’s. The researchers suggest that maybe the women traveled along different routes."

http://www.sciam.com

Götterschicksal
Monday, July 21st, 2003, 08:11 PM
I thought that we went over Caucasus mountians and to the Ukrainian Plateau during the ice-age. Not by way of Mediterranean.

http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/worldlit/jpegs/migrate.jpg

Azdaja
Monday, July 21st, 2003, 08:29 PM
I thought that we went over Caucasus mountians and to the Ukrainian Plateau during the ice-age. Not by way of Mediterranean.

The map you posted shows the migrations of the Indo-Europeans. There were people living in Europe prior to these migrations.
Some of these pre-Indo-Europeans were 'aboriginals' which existed in Europe since the Upper Paleolithic.
Others migrated from North Africa during the mesolithic.
Still others, during the neolithic.

Götterschicksal
Monday, July 21st, 2003, 11:30 PM
anyone have map of pre-indoeuropeans' migration?

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 12:05 AM
Were these indigenous people White?

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 12:13 AM
Were these indigenous people White?

Yes. The 'classic' Upper Paleolithic man is the Brunn, which is the type we most often associate with the Irish.
The Falish, Borreby, and possibly Nordic and Alpine subraces are all UP-derived.

Unfortunately I do not have any maps of pre Indo-European migrations.

torrent
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 12:31 AM
Were these indigenous people White?
hi,
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/1/22/F1
perhaps we can associate the early arriving UPs with the M45 lineage.
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~pip/15992/15992a04.htm
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~pip/15992/15992a05.htm
these passages above coincide with the probability that m45 is the ancestor of many europeans and native americans and perhaps they looked like many amerinds.
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~pip/15992/15992tdm.htm
(this site, which is very hard to read ,was introduced by mr goossens sometime ago and gives detailed (very) information about the reindeer hunter period in the continental europe.)
best regards

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 02:17 AM
these passages above coincide with the probability that m45 is the ancestor of many europeans and native americans and perhaps they looked like many amerinds.

Are you saying that Cro-Magnons looked like Amerinds? Or are you refering to post UP arrivals?

cosmocreator
Tuesday, July 22nd, 2003, 03:52 AM
I thought Kennewick man looks UP.

Vetinari
Friday, November 7th, 2003, 07:42 PM
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~pip/15992/15992a04.htm
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~pip/15992/15992a05.htm
these passages above coincide with the probability that m45 is the ancestor of many europeans and native americans and perhaps they looked like many amerinds.

Actually Native Americans probably looked very similar to Europeans until they intermarried with people who came to America from East Asia a few thousand years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3086777.stm

Euclides
Friday, November 7th, 2003, 09:25 PM
Actually Native Americans probably looked very similar to Europeans until they intermarried with people who came to America from East Asia a few thousand years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3086777.stm


THE SI-TE-CAH - THE AMERINDS' WHITE ENEMIES ACCORDING TO INDIAN BELIEF

According to the Paiute, the red-haired peoples were warlike, and a number of the Indian tribes joined together in a long war against them. According to the Indian legend, after a long struggle, a coalition of Indian tribes trapped the remaining Si-Te-Cah in what is now called Lovelock Cave. When they refused to come out, the Indians piled brush before the cave mouth and set it aflame. The Si-Te-Cah were incinerated.


LINEAGE X - THE WHITE LINK SHOWN BY GENETIC TRACKING


The new data, from a genetic marker named Lineage X, suggest definite links between ancient Whites and Native Americans.

It implies that ancient European peoples who reached North America after first, presumably, migrating through Asia, still retained a distinct genetic makeup which then passed into New World populations through later physical mingling. According to these Lineage X findings, White populations from Europe were most likely amongst the North American continent's earliest settlers.

http://www.white-history.com/hwr6b.htm

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, November 8th, 2003, 06:45 AM
Kennewick man looks more white than any Indian skull I have ever held in my hand, and I've held a lot of these, but not completely European. Maybe a white Asian population?

As for the female European migration of 45,000 years ago, maybe European females were traded to Neanderthals? We all know they would surely make that trade given the appearance of Neanderthal women. Slowly, after a few generations, the Neanderthals ceased to exist. This is not as strange as it seems. Some South African Bushmen-like people began trading for Bantu wives. They started off rather yellow and ended up black by their own admission.

Vetinari
Wednesday, November 19th, 2003, 04:26 PM
"About 8,000 years ago, a wave of change began to flow west across Europe, largely following the Mediterranean coast.

Check this out:

Genetic roots of Europe (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1334512.stm)

By BBC News Online's Helen Briggs

Northern Europeans could be descended from as few as 50 individuals who survived the last ice age.

New DNA evidence suggests that a few hundred Stone Age hunter-gatherers were the ancestors of many modern day northern Europeans.

One theory is that the population expanded from a small enclave of foragers who retreated south to an area of the Balkans or Spain to escape the spread of the glaciers.

If true, northern Europeans share essentially the same genetic makeup as their bison-hunting forefathers.

According to Oxford University's Ryk Ward, the genetic data fits in surprisingly well with archaeological clues.

"Around 20,000 years ago, the population of Europe was forced to retreat into an area where there were no glaciers," says Professor Ward of the Institute of Biological Anthropology.

"From that population base, a very small number of individuals then became the ancestors of the current [northern] European population."

He says it is impossible to specify exact numbers, but he believes that about 1,000 individuals gave rise to the modern northern European gene pool, and possibly as few as 50.

According to the joint US and UK team, northern Europeans diverged from their African roots as recently as 27,000 to 53,000 years ago.

"From a genetic standpoint, this is the first evidence that such a bottleneck occurred in Europeans," he told BBC News Online.

The evidence comes from a study of stretches of human DNA that contain individual variations of just a single letter in the genetic code.

Scientists are interested in studying these tiny molecular differences (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs) because they could explain why some people are more susceptible to common diseases than others.

But they also provide a tool for studying our genetic history, by measuring the amount of shuffling of human DNA that has occurred over time.

Many scientists believe that humans arose in Africa, and then spread and conquered the rest of the world.

But during this long journey, the genetic history of the human race underwent a series of twists and turns.

Northern Europeans share SNPs with the Nigerian population, says Eric Lander of the MIT/Whitehead Center for Genomic Research in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

But he says the European samples show large clumps of unshuffled genetic material, suggesting a recent breeding bottleneck.

The study is reported in the 10 May issue of the journal Nature.

Klegutati
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 11:31 PM
They weren't technically white, but more of an Amerinid type (like early Cro-magnon)..;)


Actually Native Americans probably looked very similar to Europeans until they intermarried with people who came to America from East Asia a few thousand years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3086777.stm

Not every Native American was married to an East Asian person. Our M45 ancestors most likely portray the members of the current Europid Kazakhstani populus.. This would include black hair, and broad & long faces with a tan colour skin..;)