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StrÝbog
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 02:05 AM
Here is the complete haplogroup genetic map of Europe, not the cut-off version that was here before.
I have been talking with Loki about it. I think that:
HG1 is Upper Paleolithic
HG9 and HG21 represent the Neolithic influx from the Middle East which brought modern agriculture

Those are the only ones I am fairly certain about.
HG2 and HG3 confuse me because at first sight they seem like they could be Indo-European/Nordic/Battle Axe but then there are high levels in places like India and Sardinia. I'm also confused why Yugoslavia would be more Battle Axe than Russia.
HG16 is of course the subject of quite a bit of arguing here. :P
I think that it looks to be northeastern European and not necessarily Mongoloid in origin. I could of course be wrong.
I'd like other people's perspectives...

http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

Tore
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 03:12 AM
I have tried to as well to match each haplogroup with varying phenotypes and ultimately I found out that it is not possible, as each haplogroup is more varied and diverse than I had originally thought. For example, statistically speaking, hg 1 cannot be simply Upper Paleolithic, due to its predominance in both the British Isles and South Western Europe. The high proportion of hg1 in these areas suggest that the Atlanto-Mediterranean people are also responsible for hg 1 influence, and thus, it must be vaguely deemed "old-European" instead.

Haplogroup 2 is somewhat more difficult to assess in its origins, due to the lack of uniformity present in its distribution. Hg 2 is of influence both in the Balkans and among what appears to be areas affected by the V÷lkerwanderung (Southern Sweden, E. Norway, Denmark, N. Germany, E. Britain, Benelux). This troubled me greatly until I stumbled upon this:


"The set of most common values for HG2 given here is based on a database of 140 results whose HG2 components were likely primarily of the haplogroup "I" branch. Haplogroup "I" is found in Central and Eastern Europe, but also accounts for almost all the HG2s in Northern Europe and the British Isles. Haplogroup "I" is thought to stem from a group (Gravettian culture) that arrived in Europe from the Middle East about 25,000 years ago. The Gravettian culture was "known for its Venus figurines, shell jewellery, and for using mammoth bones to build homes".


The other parts of HG2 - Haplogroups F, G, and J - are more common in Southern and Eastern Europe. They are believed to be the descendants of the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East who were the first to practice agriculture in Europe. Each of those branches will have their own set of common values - all different from that shown here for "I". If your values for DYS426, DYS438 and GGAAT1B07 match those of HG2 but you differ from the HG2 most common values in more than about ten markers, then you may belong to the F, G, or J parts of HG2.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/RelGen/YCC.html

As with haplogroup 1, hg 2 is also subject to variation within itself. IMHO, it shows a correlation with Nordic, Nordic intermediary types ( Anglo-Saxon, Falid, yet NOT to a great deal with the type), as well as Dinaric and perhaps Pontid strains.

Haplogroup 3 is indicitive of Battle-Axe/Corded-Ware/Indo-European ancestry. As the map shows, it is mainly present in Eastern Europe among what are commonly referred to as "Slavic" populations, as well as in W. Norway and Viking settled areas of Iceland and the British Isles, due to the Battle-Axe strain present among the Tr°nder type. Haplogroup 3 appears to be less varied then the previous two haplogorups.

Lastly, haplogroup 16 is, as you pointed out Stribog, the focal point of genetic debate around here. I was nearly convinced that hg 16 was originally unique to Europid (more specifically N.Eastern Europid) populations, due to the distinct East-West gene flow that is present among hg 16, that is until I read this:

http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000210.html


Haplotype 3, defined by the TAT-C allele and found and found
in 14.6% of Tuvinians, 5.4% of Altaians, 11.8% of
Sojots, and 18.8% of Khakassians, cannot be unambiguously
attributed to either Mongoloid or Caucasoid lineages.
It is established that TAT-C allele of the RBF5
locus is distributed predominantly in Northern Eurasia.
Maximum frequencies of this allele were observed in
Yakuts (86%), Buryats from Mongolia (52%), and also
in such Finno-Ugric peoples as Finns (61%), Estonians
(37%), and Maris (33%)

The high incidence of hg 16 (Tat C) among the Yakuts and Buryats essentially rebunked my original theory that hg 16 was a purely European gene marker, and due to the lack of similarity between the Finns and other non-European populations that have recieved a large genetic contribution from hg 16 (Buryats, Yakuts), the only reasonable explanation is that hg 16 arose prior to the splitting of Mongoloids and Europids.

StrÝbog
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 03:27 AM
the only reasonable explanation is that hg 16 arose prior to the splitting of Mongoloids and Europids.

This is my conclusion as well. I have been thinking for a while that it is a relic of the proto-Eurasian race that later diverged, as you said. The concentrations today are highest, though, in seemingly Europid populations.

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 03:47 AM
"The other parts of HG2 - Haplogroups F, G, and J - are more common in Southern and Eastern Europe. They are believed to be the descendants of the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East who were the first to practice agriculture in Europe. "

Ok cool. This is what I thought. Basically, HG2 = Danubian and HG3 = Corded.

StrÝbog
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 05:13 AM
Haplogroup 3 is indicitive of Battle-Axe/Corded-Ware/Indo-European ancestry. As the map shows, it is mainly present in Eastern Europe among what are commonly referred to as "Slavic" populations, as well as in W. Norway and Viking settled areas of Iceland and the British Isles, due to the Battle-Axe strain present among the Tr°nder type. Haplogroup 3 appears to be less varied then the previous two haplogorups.

But the highest rates are encountered in Pakistani and Indian populations? At first I speculated that it could be simply generic Neolithic Caucasian, but it is extremely low to non-existent in North African, Arab and Jewish populations. The areas of higher concentration seem to run in a definite band to the southeast, from Norway and Iceland through Russia and the Ukraine to Pakistan and India. I am still confused about it at this point.

Tore
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 05:45 AM
But the highest rates are encountered in Pakistani and Indian populations? At first I speculated that it could be simply generic Neolithic Caucasian, but it is extremely low to non-existent in North African, Arab and Jewish populations. The areas of higher concentration seem to run in a definite band to the southeast, from Norway and Iceland through Russia and the Ukraine to Pakistan and India. I am still confused about it at this point.

Yeah, I suppose I should have addressed this, yet I was only thinking about the European genetic picture for some reason.

There are two possible explanations:

1) Polak's theory by which he has proposed, that being that hg 3 was carried to Southern Asia by the Battle-Axe people and is found in high concentrations among the the Higher Castes of today's populations.

2) I read an article somewhere that hg 3 arose in Southern Asia independently, and was not brought by Aryan invaders.

I'll try to find the article...

Edit- Here is the article: http://www.racearchives.com/archived/viewnews.asp?newsID=64510524273

Allenson
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 02:50 PM
Hello,

I'm not sure if others can access the scientific article that this map is derived from or not. I work at a university and thus we have an online subscription to the American Journal of Human Genetics in which this article was published.

If someone wishes to have this article but can't access it, send me an email or PM and I'll be happy to email it along. It's about 4.65 MB so it's too big to attach to a post here....

I just downloaded it myself and it should make for some good 'bed-time' reading tonight. Nothing like curling up and reading a good scientific paper before bed. :)

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Tr°nder
1) Polak's theory by which he has proposed, that being that hg 3 was carried to Southern Asia by the Battle-Axe people and is found in high concentrations among the the Higher Castes of today's populations.

I think he's right just based on what we know about the IE migrations.

I also noticed that by taking HG2 as the Danubian marker and HG3 as the Corded marker, you can actually see the migration pattern of these two groups into Europe. The Danubians come up from the Southeast, and the B.A.s come down from the Northeast.
Not that you guys don't already know this. But I'm just starting to look into this stuff (the markers, that is) and noticed this 'pattern' last night while in IM with Stribog.

A question:
Does anyone have any idea as to why HG1 is so prominent amongst that first Pakistani group?

Allenson
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 03:56 PM
What do folks make of the surprisingly high Bedouin and North African markers found in the Netherlands? Neolithic farmers?

StrÝbog
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Yea, that's what I concluded.

Vojvoda
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 05:20 PM
So in other words:

HG2-

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p28.htm

HG3-

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p27.htm

I understand why HG2 is high in the Balkans and Hungary, but why is it so high on the island of Gotland?

Azdaja
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by dalonord
What do folks make of the surprisingly high Bedouin and North African markers found in the Netherlands? Neolithic farmers?


Originally posted by StrÝbog
Yea, that's what I concluded.

Could not this also be due to Mesolithic migrations? From what I've read it was during the Mesolithic that 'med proper' groups migrated into Europe from North Africa.

Tore
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 07:28 PM
What do folks make of the surprisingly high Bedouin and North African markers found in the Netherlands? Neolithic farmers?

Here is what the Refuting Racial Myths Website has to say on that particular subject:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

Male Near Eastern (HG9) and North African (HG21) ancestry. Note: "Neolithic" markers (HG9 and HG21) in Central and Northern Europe are probably genuinely Neolithic. The same can't necessarily be said in Greece, Portugal, southern Spain, or southern Italy, where more recent gene flow is likely indicated (Richards et al. 2002).

This is the only explanation I have come across as to why the Dutch possess moderate levels of Neolithic ancestry, and I from reading the explanation, it appears even RRM is unsure, due to use of the word 'probably' and the fact that there is no real elaboration or explanation.


Could not this also be due to Mesolithic migrations? From what I've read it was during the Mesolithic that 'med proper' groups migrated into Europe from North Africa.

Interesting.

I have only heard of hg 9 and hg 21 being referred to as the "neolithihc" haplogroups, yet, I am no expert nor geneticist.

As far as I know, the main mesolithic genetic contribution that Europe received was in the form of hg 16, which was introduced following the massacre of the Finland's male population in the Mesolithic by Uralic invaders.

torrent
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 08:19 PM
hi
may be ancestral and derived mutations may show some light and the aging of mutations may help a bit. i think it would be helpfull if we knew the ages of mutations and ancestral and derived mutations listed. for example i am curious to know the age of HG16.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/18/10244
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/7/3796
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/11/6312
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/1/22
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/15/9053

An evolutionarily redundant typing strategy was used, based on the relationships presented by Underhill et al. (8); "ancestral" and "derived" states were determined from comparisons to non-human primate sequences. Every sample was analyzed in a "first round" typing plate containing all primer sets for the following markers: M20A (primers specific for the ancestral state), M9G, M17del, M45A, M89T, RPS4YT, M173C, and M175del (all specific for the derived state). Thus, an M20G derived sample would show no band for the M20A ancestral primer set, but would show bands for the M9G and M89T derived sets. All subsequent typing for further resolution ("subtyping") was carried out with the most evolutionarily derived marker from the first round, as well as additional primer sets specific for the new markers. For example, individuals typed as M89T in the first round would be further subtyped for M52C, M170C, and M172G, in addition to M89T (see Table 2). Positive and negative control samples were included on each subtyping plate. This typing strategy was possible because of the absolute conservation of evolutionary relationships among the haplotypes, and the method was confirmed by testing 170 samples previously typed by dHPLC and sequencing (8), including at least one example of each haplotype presented here. No samples in this study had haplotypes other than those shown in Table 1.

For dating the biallelic lineages, the following microsatellites were analyzed in a subset of the samples containing the lineages of interest: DYS19, DYS388, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS395. These were typed on an Applied Biosystems 373 or 377 as described (13).

Analysis. Haplotype assignments were made based on the typing results and the evolutionary relationship of the markers. As described above, haplotypes were named for their most derived marker, because markers were added during the course of the study and will continue to be added in the future as additional polymorphisms are discovered. Haplotype frequencies and diversities [heterozygosity multiplied by n/(n 1); ref. 14] were calculated in Microsoft EXCEL, and the tree analysis was carried out with the GENDIST, SEQBOOT, NEIGHBOR, and CONSENSE programs of PHYLIP (15).

For estimating the age of a haplotype-defining biallelic polymorphism, the equation t = Neln(1 V/NeÁ) was used (16). This equation was derived from the single step mutation model for a haploid population assuming constant population size, where Ne is the effective population size, V is the variance of repeat numbers in the population, and Á is the mutation rate. If the population goes through a strong bottleneck event followed by a rapid population expansion, it can be shown that this formula is still approximately valid (16). Following Semino et al. (17), we used Ne = 4,500 and Á = 0.0011. For each haplotype, the average V over all loci was used for the age estimate. The results for DYS388 were excluded from the analysis because it appears to have undergone at least one multistep mutation (on the lineage ancestral to M172, such that all M172 haplotypes contain higher numbers of DYS388 repeats).


best regards

Allenson
Tuesday, July 15th, 2003, 08:30 PM
Hello all,

Apparently the file (genetic study which this map is based on) is too big to send through email.

I've uploaded it onto the SNPA/Nordish Yahoo forum in the "files" section. There, it's called "y-chromosome pdf".

I'm assuming many of the members here are also on the SNPA list/Yahoo forum...

cheers

Tore
Thursday, July 17th, 2003, 07:10 AM
The high proportion of hg1 in these areas suggest that the Atlanto-Mediterranean people are also responsible for hg 1 influence, and thus, it must be vaguely deemed "old-European" instead.

Hmmm...

I have been pondering this for the last several days and now I don't think hg 1 is UP+ Atlanto-Med, and here's why:

1) The figures aren't overly high when one considers that the map is dealing with strictly paternal lineages. For example, the figures for areas of heavy Upper Paleolithic influence such as the Cornish and Irish need to be divided by 2 in order to be reflective of the TOTAL genetic influence, and once done, the figures for or less fit estimates as to how many Paleolithic survivors constitute the overall percentage of the populations of the respective areas.

2)The supplement to my first theory deals with how the Atlanto-Mediterranean genetic contribution to the British Isles, if not through hg 1. I began to wonder if the mitochondrial DNA of the British Isles revealed the elusive Med influence that is not seen along Paternal lineages, and sure enough, I found something:

http://www.roperld.com/HaplogroupFamilies.htm

"The paper also shows that Irish and Welsh women (from mtDNA tests) do not predominately originate from the paleolithic, but instead from the neolithic people who migrated in later from the east."

Your thoughts?

torrent
Monday, July 21st, 2003, 11:51 PM
hi,
this is a very good illustration of the relations between the haplogroups.
http://mbe.oupjournals.org/content/vol19/issue7/images/large/mbev-19-05-18-f02.jpeg
best regards

Tore
Saturday, July 26th, 2003, 09:38 PM
I've been pondering the origins of hg 16 and have narrowed down to what I believe to be plausible theories.

1) Founder Effect Theory

Haplogroup 16 is mongoloid, and was brought to the Baltic by mesolithic Uralic invaders, who subsequently decimated the Baltic's male mesolithic population. However, the Europid female population of the Baltic greatly outnumbered these invaders, in which the incorporation of the Uralic peoples in to the Baltic genepool made the contribution of hg 16 appear much higher than it essentially was, in terms of the genepool as a whole.

i.e Example

hg 16 male produces a male child with Europid Baltic female. That male child produces another male child with a Europid Baltic female, and this male child also produces a male child with another Europid Baltic female.

The end result is a child who shows 100 % Uralic paternal lineage, as a male receives Y-Chromosome DNA from his father, who received it from his father, and so on etc.

However, the very same child is only 12.5% Uralic as whole!

Over time, as long as consecutive male were produced in the same bloodline, the overall Uralic contribution would become a decimal, negligable figure, yet would reamin at 100% paternally.

If such a theory is correct, it would account for Finland having 61% male Uralic lineages, with the overall Uralic input being insignificant.

2) Ancient Origin Theory

Haplogroup 16 arose in Eurasia prior to the Mongoloid-Caucasoid split, showing high frequencies in populations which are largely phenotypically unrelated.