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Huzar
Wednesday, March 16th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Greatest empires carachterized by a strong germanic influence. My idea is to present a series of historical statal realities created or determinantly influenced by germanic culture or ethnic strain. A sort of story of Germanic (in the wider sense) national aggregations from the origins to now. I'll begin soon to post a series of Historic charts and data

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, March 16th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Greatest empires carachterized by a strong germanic influence. My idea is to present a series of historical statal realities created or determinantly influenced by germanic culture or ethnic strain. A sort of story of Germanic (in the wider sense) national aggregations from the origins to now. I'll begin soon to post a series of Historic charts and data

The Frankish would be the most obvious place to start, as well as the Mercians and the Kingdom of Wessex (later England), and Canute's kingdom.

Huzar
Friday, March 18th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Very well. From this moment, in every post i'll do on this thread, i'll describe a different "moment" of ethnic-state GERMANIC develpment through the centuries.

1 - ANCESTRAL BEGIN

During the centuries of Roman Empire, Roman Emperors had an ONLY REAL enemy : GERMANIC populations. Of course, in this age we can't speak of a real state aggregate : germanic tribes constituted a variegated reality carachterized by the absence of ANY form of organization, except the most basilars (family, Clan, Hord etc.). Although this absence of organization, they played a fundamental role during the Roman Empire : they were feared by every Roman Emperor since the times of SILLA , like the most dangerous enemy Roman Empire never had. An obscure, indistinct entity without a single king, without a clear form of government, without a neither a single name (there were ,probably, more than 300 tribes, counting groups an sub-groups), though carachterized by a formidable capability of resistance : an invincible, chaotic, ungovernable strenght immersed in the boundless forests of north-europe. An anarchic ideal of power, like writer Tacitus wrote. Several Roman Emperors, sent, every year, delegations and presents to the most powerfull germanic chiefs to guarantee their neutrality, or their help. In conclusion, we can't see, objectively, a nation, rather a powerfull embryonic nucleus. An anonymous ethnic mass. But an anonimous mass more dangerous than ANY organized state in that age. Probably, Roman Emperors, considered Germanic tribes, like a "virtual" Empire". MOST IMPORTANT, the ONLY ethnic-cultural force on European continent capable to resist to imperial expansion. EVERY roman legion transitating on "Rhine line" had the terror of the word "Germanic". Was synonimous of massacre, then.

Te borders were very vague, although the territory occupied by Germanic entity is less or more equivalent to these actual nations : Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Poland, Czech-Slovakia, Hungary, and western Belarus. In total, about a 1'000'000 of km(2). Demographic consistence is, today, estimed in 3,5- 4 millions at time of julius Cesar (50 B.C.), but about 20 millions, 250 years later. The CRITIC line, was the RHINE ; CESAR, during his campaigns, conquested mostly the western part of Europe (actual SPAIN, FRANCE, BRITISH ISLES), though he didn't cross the RHINE. The conquest of germanic territory was left to the subsequent Roman commanders generation. On the "mithic" line of Rhine were fought the bloodiest battles of all European ancient history (in terms of deaths, those battles were much more bloody than Hellenic/Persian empire wars). I could cite several bettles, but only one was really determinant for the ethnic-cultural doom of our continent. TEUTOBURGO (Teutobourg forest). In 14 A.D. the Emperor Octavianus Augustus, decided to complete the conquest of north-europe; a big expedition was organized, with a double objective : beating Germanic tribes and, in the same time, to colonize their territory. A decisive victory on the way of the total conquest of ALL Europe. In synthesis, were sent 6 of the best legions (over 35'000 men. a big number for the time) plus a civilian pop. of 30'000 people (to colonize the conquested territories) ; about the 15% of imperial military power. Although the expedition had a tragic end for the Romans : without the most basilar knowledge of territory, and without any communication with external world, was completely surrounded in Teutobourg Forest, by a Germanic army, formed by a federation of tribes. He lost ALL his legions durin the "siege" and committed suicide. This military disaster, left an atavic fear in Roman Empire, whom never more attempted to conquest anything over the Rhine. That river, became in subsequent centuries a line between life and death. and in subsequent millennia, the historic bord between Neo-latin and Celtic civilization and Germanic world. Two different worlds divided by a subtle geographic line.

Edwin
Saturday, March 19th, 2005, 11:01 PM
The Celtic clans really didn't resist because they didn't all try. By the late La Tene there were more clans which looked to Rome rather than looked away. I guess we can assume that those clans which were predominatly Alpinid and Dinarid felt relatively closer to Rome than others, because the Roman patricians were of course mostly Dinarid and Alpinid themselves.

So who is going to come along and challenge the Dinarid and Alpinid composition of the Roman patricians? A gracile-Nordid perhaps? :)

Fraxinus Excelsior
Saturday, March 19th, 2005, 11:19 PM
Greatest empires carachterized by a strong germanic influence. My idea is to present a series of historical statal realities created or determinantly influenced by germanic culture or ethnic strain. A sort of story of Germanic (in the wider sense) national aggregations from the origins to now. I'll begin soon to post a series of Historic charts and dataNo offense, but it sounds awfully similar to March of the Titans (http://www.white-history.com/). :|

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, March 19th, 2005, 11:49 PM
No offense, but it sounds awfully similar to March of the Titans (http://www.white-history.com/). :|

Why do you say that? I dont agree.

Huzar
Sunday, March 20th, 2005, 12:02 AM
No offense, but it sounds awfully similar to March of the Titans (http://www.white-history.com/). :|
Perhaps you've misinterpreted a bit, the real meaning of my initiative. I consider the word "GERMANIC" to be a CULTURAL concept and absolutely NOT sub racial .The same actual GERMANY /AUSTRIA has a very large proportion of DINARID- ALPINE population (the relative majority in south germany and Austria). My intention, is to show the objective influence of Germanic culture in major state formations of our continent. O.K. perhaps the title is a bit similar to Kemp's rethoric...............

Fraxinus Excelsior
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 01:25 AM
Perhaps you've misinterpreted a bit, the real meaning of my initiative. I consider the word "GERMANIC" to be a CULTURAL concept and absolutely NOT sub racial .The same actual GERMANY /AUSTRIA has a very large proportion of DINARID- ALPINE population (the relative majority in south germany and Austria). My intention, is to show the objective influence of Germanic culture in major state formations of our continent. O.K. perhaps the title is a bit similar to Kemp's rethoric...............Perhaps. Either way, I wish you the best of luck on your project. :thumbsup

Oskorei
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
The Swedish Empire during the Carolinian period was very Germanic, and encouraging. Good kings, brave soldiers, and so on.

There is a thread on it here:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=31267

Milesian
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 05:13 PM
The Celtic clans really didn't resist because they didn't all try.

Actually, the Celts kicked the Roman's collective ass for much of the early period of Rome. They won battle after battle as Rome was powerless to resist the Celtic advance into Italy. Cities such as milan were originally Celtic settlements. The Celts eventually sacked Rome and only left after a huge bribe was paid to them. It took Rome over 50 years to recover and over a century to extact revenge for it. The Romans changed tactics and became more disciplined as a result and eventually effected a massive slaughter on the Celts, casualties and deaths estimated in millions.

This was fortunate for the Germanic tribes to the north-east however, as this weakend the Celts enough to allow them to start moving west and occupying former Celtic land. So you could say that the Germanics rose to the prominence they did thanks to Rome ;)

Huzar
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 06:44 PM
Actually, the Celts kicked the Roman's collective ass for much of the early period of Rome. They won battle after battle as Rome was powerless to resist the Celtic advance into Italy. Cities such as milan were originally Celtic settlements. The Celts eventually sacked Rome and only left after a huge bribe was paid to them. It took Rome over 50 years to recover and over a century to extact revenge for it. The Romans changed tactics and became more disciplined as a result and eventually effected a massive slaughter on the Celts, casualties and deaths estimated in millions.
This was fortunate for the Germanic tribes to the north-east however, as this weakend the Celts enough to allow them to start moving west and occupying former Celtic land. So you could say that the Germanics rose to the prominence they did thanks to Rome ;)
Yeah, i agree on some of your adfirmations ; Some celtic tribes resisted to imperial expansion until the fall of empire. I refer myself to Ireland particularly, and to Scotland. About the germanic preminence on Celtic, thanks the Roman "help" i must admit, it's an intriguing scenario ;) , though i'm not completely sure. (Maybe;) ;)) .

Milesian
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 07:07 PM
Yeah, i agree on some of your adfirmations ; Some celtic tribes resisted to imperial expansion until the fall of empire. I refer myself to Ireland particularly, and to Scotland. About the germanic preminence on Celtic, thanks the Roman "help" i must admit, it's an intriguing scenario ;) , though i'm not completely sure. (Maybe;) ;)) .


Hmm..I better not state the opinion of some scholars who believe that the Celts originally subjegated the Germanics in pre-history ;)

Edwin
Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005, 07:08 PM
Actually, the Celts kicked the Roman's collective ass for much of the early period of Rome. They won battle after battle as Rome was powerless to resist the Celtic advance into Italy. Cities such as milan were originally Celtic settlements. The Celts eventually sacked Rome and only left after a huge bribe was paid to them. It took Rome over 50 years to recover and over a century to extact revenge for it. The Romans changed tactics and became more disciplined as a result and eventually effected a massive slaughter on the Celts, casualties and deaths estimated in millions.

This was fortunate for the Germanic tribes to the north-east however, as this weakend the Celts enough to allow them to start moving west and occupying former Celtic land. So you could say that the Germanics rose to the prominence they did thanks to Rome ;)

I was only talking about the late La Tene in Gaul, but you're very right about the earlier periods. Yes, the original Borreby/Iron Age Nordic composite was extremely formidable, and until it began to fall apart because of creeping Mediterraneanisms, which urbanized the gracile components, what were both Roman and Germanic were insignificant.

The Celtic clan/state, a direct descendant of the Indo-European, with its patent blend of pastoralism and mineral exploitation, had unprecedented success in the already agricultural European subcontinent.

Huzar
Wednesday, March 23rd, 2005, 10:48 PM
2 - THE FALL OF ROMAN EMPIRE AND THE DARK CENTURIES.


In 476 A.D. , after ceunturies of decadence, the Roman Empire, the greatest force of entire western world for almost 800 years, concluded his historic role forever. Insted this, the social-cultural structures left in the ex Roman territories, will continue to live for millennia.(still now). At the moment of the fall, it's necessary to remember the long age of decadence of the Empire : the process of decadence began 250 years before (around the 200 A.D.) ; the first element involved in the decadence process was the military power : first the Roman war fleet, key of the mediterranean power, fell ,gradually, in ruin. Communications in mediterranean area was compromised. Second, and most important, the entire terrestrial Roman force (about 100 legions =600'000 men , in the peack of roman power), gradually, CHANGED its ETHNIC make-up ; Since from the passage from the republican form to the imperial form of the Roman State, became normal recluting berbarians in the roman legions. This custom, continued for over 200 years. At the end of Empire, a typical Roman legion near the Rhine, is constituted for the 70-75% by Germanic barbarians. In 410 A.D. a bloody incursion of a gothic tribe ruled by Alaric destroyed the myth of the "eternal and invincible city". In the truth, the definitive fall will happen 60 years later, though this was a catastrophic preliminary of the future ruin. ODOACRE, great barbarian chief, concluded officially the Imperial historic cycle dethronizing ROMULUS AUGUSTULUS, remembered like the last Roman Emperor. (strange irony : even the first Roman king had the same name: Romulus.) A new overwhelming force, now ,will take the power : the Germanic ethnic mass. Confined for entire millennia in the impenetrable forests of north-europe, collided like a unheard titanic wave the territories of the ancient invincible conqueror. This event changed forever the european continent. Our world. I could cite at this point, a long chronology, but it wouldn't be a precise chronology : the truth of the first century subsequent the imperial fall, is a chaotic vortex of continuous invasions and violences ; the populations of ex imperial territories ,saw their world changing in a radical way : after centuries of an eternal undestructible order and a perfect organization, the reality became a tragic sense of impotence in front of continuous invasions. The significance of life changed drammatically : nobody was no more sure of nothing. Many example in the rare litrature of this age show this general state of mind. However the most important thing to remember is that the facts of this age (between 450- 650) constitute the BASIS of thefuture ethnic, meta ethnic and even subracial composition of all european area, from the British isles, to the near-east.

In the next post i'll show the principal GERMANIC state aggregations in western europe, from the fall of Empire : FRANCE, ENGLAND SPAIN.