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Milesian
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 01:10 PM
Ok, I started off discussing Brunns elsewhere and some suggestions made along with the new info I'm learning (I've just started out on this) is making me come up with a theory to reconcile what we know of the sub-races of Europe and the Irish creation legends (which I always felt contained the basis of truth).

Now, first of all I have looked at the Celts during their migration away from the Celtic homelands near the Alps. We know that there were two movements. One to the East and one to the West.

To the East, we know for a fact that the Celts moved through eastern Europe, down through the Balkans to Greece and even Asia minor (Turkey).

To the West, they moved into Gaul, the Italian peninsula, and (so the current model says) over the Pyrenees into Iberia,breeding with Iberians to form Celtiberians.

But what if the westward moving Celts weren't the forbears of the Celtiberians. What if it was those earlier eastern moving Celts.
The Irish legends tell us that the Milesians were originally in Greece and the Balkans with the Sycthians and others and that they settled around the Hellenic region, before being enlisted in Egypt as mercenaries, and then being expelled from there too. The Milesians then sailed west until they reached the Iberian peninsula. The tales then say they marched north, battling indigenous tribes before settling in the north (Modern day Gallicia and Asturias). From there, the Sons of Mil Espane sailed to Ireland and conquered that land.

So the Irish legends seem to be painting a different story.
That the Celt Iberians weren't Western Celts like the Belgae or the Gauls, but rather Celts who had came from the Eastern Mediterranian. I think this has a lot going for it.

Now we know that the Goidelic Celts of Ireland spoke a tongue very distinct from the Brythonic Celts of Britain or the Continetal Celts (who's two tongues were much closer than they were to the Goidelic tongue).

Current models have to explain this as Goidelic Celts being a first wave to inhabit the British Isles, and then later another Celtic invasion brining the Brythonic tongue.
The problem however is that if the Milesians were Western Celts who had crossed the Pyrenees from Gaul, then they would likely be speaking a Brythonic tongue. If they subsequently invaded Ireland and supplanted the earlier culture then they would also bring the Brythonic tongue with them. But they didn't.
We are told that it was the Milesians that brought the Gaelic / Goidelic tongue and culture.

Current research suggests that the Goidelic branch is much older, probably related to the Halstatt era of Celtic civilisation.
The Brythonic and Continental branches being later, probably associated with the La Tene era.

If the Eastern moving Celts left during the Halstatt phase, then they would have retained that langauge and culture during their seperation from their homelands as they moved east and south through the Balkans, out of touch with developments back home where the La Tene phase had brithed a new culture and langauge.

Bearing in mind that the La Tene Celts were more sophisticated than the Halstatt Celts and also that by the time taken for these Milesians to travel through Eastern Europe to the Eastern Med to Ireland, we may expect an already advanced Celtic society already in Ireland by the time the Milesians arrive.
And according to the legends, there was.
When the Tuatha De Danaan arrived in Ireland they were hailed as Gods and magicians by the more primitive Fir Bolg. We could view this as the La Tene culture arriving.
Even more interesting is that when the Milesians conquered Ireland, they were just as astounded at how wise and skillful the Tuatha De Daanan were and also revered them as magicians and later as Gods. this would make sense if the Milesian conquerers were Halstatt Celts who had traveled from the Eastern Med without coming into contact with La Tene culture until they met the Tuatha De Daanan in Ireland. Therefore I would theorise that the Tuatha De Daanan were Brythonic Celts.

In other words, they La Tene culture may have arrived in Ireland before the Hallstatt culture.

Another area of interest is the Picts.
They are something of a mystery.
They were a short, dark race who seemed to speak a non-IndoEuropean langauge and perhaps related to the Basques.
People have theorised that they may be the indigenous inhabitatants and the Fir Bolg of old.
I disagree.

Yes, the Fir Bolg were small and dark, just as the Picts are described. But the problem is that the Fir Bolg are already living in Ireland before either the Milesians (Celt-Iberians) or the Tuatha De Danaan (Brythonic Celts) arrive. They seem to be a Med-Atlantid people.

The Picts however, according to the legends, arrive much later.
The Milesians have already conquered the land when the Cruthin (Picts) arrive from Iberia sometime later. They ask the Milesians for some land to settle on, but the Milesians refuse. They do however give the Cruthin (Picts) an armed contingent and the wives of the Tuatha De Daanan (Brythonic Celts) and send them to settle in Alba (Scotland)

The legends here seem to be telling us that these Cruthin (who might very well be related to Basques) were relative late in coming to Ireland and Britain. This would rule them out as being the Fir Bolg.
It is possible that the Fir Bolg were Med Atlantids who were related to them and settled in Ireland very early on, seperating from the Basque-type people from whom the Cruthin (Picts ) came at a much later time. Therfore the Picts and Fir Bolg could be related but they are not the same people.

My guess just now is the following:

Fomorians = Brunn type UP people who were original natives.

Fir Bolg = Med Atlantic type, split from Basque ancestors

Tuatha De Danaan = Brythonic Celts from the continent via Britain

Milesians - Eastern Hallstatt Celts from Eastern Med. Celtiberians

Picts = Split from Basque ancestors at a later date from the Fir Bolg and were the last pre-historic people's to settle. Also Med Atlantid types.


Can anyone tell me if that sounds plausible?

Vigilant
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 08:56 PM
I'm ashamed to say I don't know too much about the Celts and where they came from.But it was an interesting read.One thing though:Jews are from the East Med too.I'd be careful making connections in that area.There's always some religious crazy looking for an origin link to the tribes of Israel.

Milesian
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Thanks for reading and responding anyway, Vigilant.
Isuppose some religious nut might do that, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my study of this which is something important to me.

Such claims would not be very believable of course.
We are talking Greece and the Balkans circa 1000 BC or before.
This is over a thousand years before the Jewish Diaspora.
Most if not all the Jews would be firmly in Palestine at this time :)

Scáthach
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 11:37 PM
im in a rush right now so i didnt get to read it all properly,yet but one thing that i thought id mention is when referring to the fir bolg remember how much our ancestors believed in the daoine sidhe too ;) :D

Stríbog
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 11:55 PM
I know that the Picts were racially Med and non-IE linguistically; I don't know when exactly they arrived in the Isles. I cannot say what the Fir Bolg were, as I have not seen much data on them. The Kingdom of Dalriada was Pictish, right, before being displaced by Celts from Ireland? I know that Kenneth MacAlpin attempted to exterminate Picts in Scotland in the 9th century AD.
I am *very* intrigued by your theory as to the divergence of Goidelic and Brythonic Celtic. It always perplexed me that the Brythonics seemed to come directly from France to Wales, yet were mysteriously absent in Ireland and Scotland. I also knew that Celtics existed as far east/south as coastal Turkey (Galatia I believe?). Spain was a hub of commerce and cultural interaction in pre-Roman Europe, so it is entirely possible that eastern Celts came to Ireland via Spain.

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 01:12 PM
Scathach (like the name!),

Well, the daoine sidhe in as much as they are the "little people" of fairy tales are a relatively modern idea.

They represent the Tuatha De Danaan.
The Milesians believed that after the De Danaan accepted Milesian hegemony of Ireland that they retreated under the hills, over the lakes and to the remote places (in otherwords they probably moved to the western coast and other remote areas).

We remember how the Milesian's were amazed at the Danaan's knowledge and craftsmanship. In time as the Danaan faded from memory, legend replaced reality and they became the gods and goddesses of the Gaels.
In later times, once pagan beliefs were not acceptable, they transformed from being gods to being mischevious little fairy folk.


Fionn:

If I know my Scottish history correct, Dalriada was a Gaelic Scots kingdom. It existed in two parts, one on each side of the Irish seas. at the Convention of Druimm Ceat - Scottish Dalriada became independant. The Picts lived in the more North - North Eastern parts of Scotland.
According to my theory, the Picts left Ireland and went to Scotland long before the Ulaid and Airghialla clans left Ireland in the first centuries AD. Therefore according the theory, the Picts should be in Scotland before the Gaels. But they should still be late comers to Ireland. They would have arrived in Ireland after even the Milesians, but were the first to go to Scotland.
If there was anyone living in Scotland before the Picts arrived then I would think either Brythonic Celts or perhaps UP people.

Scáthach
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Milesian
Scathach (like the name!),

Well, the daoine sidhe in as much as they are the "little people" of fairy tales are a relatively modern idea.

They represent the Tuatha De Danaan.
The Milesians believed that after the De Danaan accepted Milesian hegemony of Ireland that they retreated under the hills, over the lakes and to the remote places (in otherwords they probably moved to the western coast and other remote areas).

We remember how the Milesian's were amazed at the Danaan's knowledge and craftsmanship. In time as the Danaan faded from memory, legend replaced reality and they became the gods and goddesses of the Gaels.
In later times, once pagan beliefs were not acceptable, they transformed from being gods to being mischevious little fairy folk.

.

hehe,dont worry i have a weird sense of humour i was joking about the fairies :)
although irish folklore and mythology is the best there is and im not even being biased....really!
www.shee-eire.com

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 05:24 PM
Oops!
I knew you were joking! Of course I did!:}

I always wondered if my family had a Bean Sidhe.
Don't suppose I really want to find out!

Scáthach
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 09:06 PM
haha that would be a skeleton in a closet LOL!
i asked you this in another thread but you probably didnt see it - are you also royal milesian from sf ireland?

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 10:33 PM
:) - Yeah it sure would! Or maybe a Dullahan in the closet!

Sorry,
I meant to answer that earlier. Yup, 'tis the one and same.
Are you on SF as well?
What do you think of it?
This site seems a bit more highbrow if I'm honest, which I prefer.

Scáthach
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 10:41 PM
yep im there too ,ive had a conversation with you :D
im ''supremacist'' there ironically since im not so supreme anymore!

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM
Oh yeah, I remember the name! :)What topic were we discussing?

What do you mean not so supreme anymore?
Have you been turfed out? :confused:

Actually, I found PE and Nord through someone posting them in SF. That wasn't you was it? LOL

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Oh, found it. The bit about Celtic Purity!
You said you had discussed that before. Oh well, great minds and all....x_hehe

Scáthach
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 12:20 PM
hehe exactly :D
nope im still on sf i just post there rareyl,i prefer this board too but sf has more irish people so i just xcheck in to see whats going on,lol :)

Edwin
Saturday, July 5th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Hi,

Fomorians: Brunn UP

Fir Bolg, Galeoin, etc.: Med Atlantids

Tuatha De Danann: Hallstatt Celts through Denmark then through Scotland, spoke a pre-Goidelic form of q-Celtic; the Ulad were the last of them in Ireland - read Mesca Ulad; in it you'll find them and the Dananns together as one force

Milesians: La Tene Celts through wherever, spoke Goidelic. They were at first dominated in Ireland by the earlier q-Celtic speakers, but later they were able to drive them into neighboring Scotland and Wales - read Branwen Uerch Lyr; it picks up where Mesca Ulad leaves off

Brythonic was the result of Med Atlantids speaking Goidelic.

Milesian
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 06:17 PM
Hmmm...interesting though I'm a little puzzled by some of it.
So your saying that both Halstatt and La Tene Celts spoke Goidelic tongues, while Brythonic was a result of the Med Atlantid's trying to speak Goidelic?

The problem is that the Continental Celtic languages were P-Celtic like Brythonic.
If Brythonic was the result of Med-Atlantids trying to speak Goidelic then we would expect Continental Celts to be speaking Goidelic and Insular Celts speaking Brythonic.
But that's not the case, in fact basically the opposite was true.

Also I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think the Milesians were at first dominated by the previous inhabitants of Ireland. Didn't they invade and defeat the Tuatha De Danaan (albeit they were toosed back out to sea on the first invasion attempt due to storms)

Saoirse
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 10:54 PM
There was the tribe Scot of Ulster.

Milesian
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 10:56 PM
Sorry, what do you mean by the Irish Nationalist?

CelticLover
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Milesian
Scathach (like the name!),

What does it mean?

Scáthach
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 11:04 PM
scathach was a great female warrior, taught dsome great irish men to fight too ;)

Milesian
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 11:09 PM
But didn't she crap out of a fight from Aoife? ;)

Scáthach
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 11:10 PM
not that ive heard of! she did teach fionn to fight and taught the great man very well! :prost

Milesian
Sunday, July 6th, 2003, 11:19 PM
Really? I thought it was Cuchullain that she taught to fight?
In fact I'm almost positive. Cuchullain fought Aiofe in Scathach's place (and even then had to trick her to win).

I suppose she may have trained Fionn to fight, but I always thought she belonged in the Ulster Cycle rather than the Fenian Cycle

Scáthach
Monday, July 7th, 2003, 12:43 PM
no, youre right, i couldnt remember which one it was so i decided to be safe and say fionn :drsuess
cuchullain had to go to the isle of Skye to find her becuase only she knew the secrets of war and weaponry.....an impressive character!

Milesian
Thursday, July 10th, 2003, 11:00 PM
So she was Scottish then?
Well, that makes sense. If there is a Scots girl who doesn't know about fighting and weaponry, I haven't met her ;)

It is strange though. I heard somewhere that Aoife was actually Scathach's sister and that Cuchullain later married her.
Strange because why would Scathach's darling sister want to duel to the death with her (not impossible I suppose).
Even worse is that Cuchuallain was married to Emer, was he not

goidelicwarrior
Wednesday, July 30th, 2003, 10:33 AM
Ok, I started off discussing Brunns elsewhere and some suggestions made along with the new info I'm learning (I've just started out on this) is making me come up with a theory to reconcile what we know of the sub-races of Europe and the Irish creation legends (which I always felt contained the basis of truth).

Now, first of all I have looked at the Celts during their migration away from the Celtic homelands near the Alps. We know that there were two movements. One to the East and one to the West.

To the East, we know for a fact that the Celts moved through eastern Europe, down through the Balkans to Greece and even Asia minor (Turkey).

To the West, they moved into Gaul, the Italian peninsula, and (so the current model says) over the Pyrenees into Iberia,breeding with Iberians to form Celtiberians.

But what if the westward moving Celts weren't the forbears of the Celtiberians. What if it was those earlier eastern moving Celts.
The Irish legends tell us that the Milesians were originally in Greece and the Balkans with the Sycthians and others and that they settled around the Hellenic region, before being enlisted in Egypt as mercenaries, and then being expelled from there too. The Milesians then sailed west until they reached the Iberian peninsula. The tales then say they marched north, battling indigenous tribes before settling in the north (Modern day Gallicia and Asturias). From there, the Sons of Mil Espane sailed to Ireland and conquered that land.

So the Irish legends seem to be painting a different story.
That the Celt Iberians weren't Western Celts like the Belgae or the Gauls, but rather Celts who had came from the Eastern Mediterranian. I think this has a lot going for it.

Now we know that the Goidelic Celts of Ireland spoke a tongue very distinct from the Brythonic Celts of Britain or the Continetal Celts (who's two tongues were much closer than they were to the Goidelic tongue).

Current models have to explain this as Goidelic Celts being a first wave to inhabit the British Isles, and then later another Celtic invasion brining the Brythonic tongue.
The problem however is that if the Milesians were Western Celts who had crossed the Pyrenees from Gaul, then they would likely be speaking a Brythonic tongue. If they subsequently invaded Ireland and supplanted the earlier culture then they would also bring the Brythonic tongue with them. But they didn't.
We are told that it was the Milesians that brought the Gaelic / Goidelic tongue and culture.

Current research suggests that the Goidelic branch is much older, probably related to the Halstatt era of Celtic civilisation.
The Brythonic and Continental branches being later, probably associated with the La Tene era.

If the Eastern moving Celts left during the Halstatt phase, then they would have retained that langauge and culture during their seperation from their homelands as they moved east and south through the Balkans, out of touch with developments back home where the La Tene phase had brithed a new culture and langauge.

Bearing in mind that the La Tene Celts were more sophisticated than the Halstatt Celts and also that by the time taken for these Milesians to travel through Eastern Europe to the Eastern Med to Ireland, we may expect an already advanced Celtic society already in Ireland by the time the Milesians arrive.
And according to the legends, there was.
When the Tuatha De Danaan arrived in Ireland they were hailed as Gods and magicians by the more primitive Fir Bolg. We could view this as the La Tene culture arriving.
Even more interesting is that when the Milesians conquered Ireland, they were just as astounded at how wise and skillful the Tuatha De Daanan were and also revered them as magicians and later as Gods. this would make sense if the Milesian conquerers were Halstatt Celts who had traveled from the Eastern Med without coming into contact with La Tene culture until they met the Tuatha De Daanan in Ireland. Therefore I would theorise that the Tuatha De Daanan were Brythonic Celts.

In other words, they La Tene culture may have arrived in Ireland before the Hallstatt culture.

Another area of interest is the Picts.
They are something of a mystery.
They were a short, dark race who seemed to speak a non-IndoEuropean langauge and perhaps related to the Basques.
People have theorised that they may be the indigenous inhabitatants and the Fir Bolg of old.
I disagree.

Yes, the Fir Bolg were small and dark, just as the Picts are described. But the problem is that the Fir Bolg are already living in Ireland before either the Milesians (Celt-Iberians) or the Tuatha De Danaan (Brythonic Celts) arrive. They seem to be a Med-Atlantid people.

The Picts however, according to the legends, arrive much later.
The Milesians have already conquered the land when the Cruthin (Picts) arrive from Iberia sometime later. They ask the Milesians for some land to settle on, but the Milesians refuse. They do however give the Cruthin (Picts) an armed contingent and the wives of the Tuatha De Daanan (Brythonic Celts) and send them to settle in Alba (Scotland)

The legends here seem to be telling us that these Cruthin (who might very well be related to Basques) were relative late in coming to Ireland and Britain. This would rule them out as being the Fir Bolg.
It is possible that the Fir Bolg were Med Atlantids who were related to them and settled in Ireland very early on, seperating from the Basque-type people from whom the Cruthin (Picts ) came at a much later time. Therfore the Picts and Fir Bolg could be related but they are not the same people.

My guess just now is the following:

Fomorians = Brunn type UP people who were original natives.

Fir Bolg = Med Atlantic type, split from Basque ancestors

Tuatha De Danaan = Brythonic Celts from the continent via Britain

Milesians - Eastern Hallstatt Celts from Eastern Med. Celtiberians

Picts = Split from Basque ancestors at a later date from the Fir Bolg and were the last pre-historic people's to settle. Also Med Atlantid types.


Can anyone tell me if that sounds plausible?

Intresting obeservations...

Milesian
Wednesday, July 30th, 2003, 05:52 PM
Intresting obeservations...

Go raibh maith agat.
Do you any comments on it or do you spot anything that seems wrong?

RusViking
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 12:59 AM
What do you make of the Basque/Northern Irish genetic similarity?

Milesian
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 01:23 AM
What do you make of the Basque/Northern Irish genetic similarity?


Basque/Northern Irish genetic similarity?

I'm not sure if Northern Irish are more similar to Basques than the rest of the Irish. Can you clarify what you mean?

Awar
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 01:31 AM
Milesian, I've read a long while ago, in some book that some of the Celts who settled in Iberia and Ireland were coming from Central Asia, via Northern Africa to Iberia and then to Ireland.

I don't know where this book is, or how it was called, but it has a lot of other interesting stuff that coincides with the newer genetic research. If I'm not mistaken, this book was written in the 19th century, and it basically describes the Aryans as coming from the Eurasian steppes, it also describes their wars to conquer India etc.

Scoob
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:37 AM
Milesian, I've read a long while ago, in some book that some of the Celts who settled in Iberia and Ireland were coming from Central Asia, via Northern Africa to Iberia and then to Ireland.

I don't know where this book is, or how it was called, but it has a lot of other interesting stuff that coincides with the newer genetic research. If I'm not mistaken, this book was written in the 19th century, and it basically describes the Aryans as coming from the Eurasian steppes, it also describes their wars to conquer India etc.
From: http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm

According to the traditions of the Lebor Gabala Erren (Book of the Taking of Ireland), the Irish originated in Scythia and were descendants of a King Feinius Farsaid, a King of Scythia. This Feinius Farsaid and his son, Nel, went into Asia to work on the Tower of Nimrod (Tower of Babel in biblical history) and were present at the subsequent dispersal of the races after the destruction of the tower. Feinius and his son, both learned in the new languages which resulted from the dispersal, returned to Scythia where Feinius opened a great school of languages on the Scythian plain.

In time his son Nel became such an expert in languages that pharoa of Egypt invited him into his country to teach his people the new languages of the world. So Nel went to Egypt and there he married Scota, pharoa's daughter. After pharoa was drowned in the Red Sea in pursuit of Moses and his band of Hebrews, Nel's great-grandson, Sru, fled from Egypt for fear of persecution by the Egyptians and with his son, Heber Scot, returned to Scythia. There Heber Scot won the kingship of Scythia. After a few generations, a descendant of Heber Scot, named Agnomain, killed a rival for the kingship of Scythia (a kingsman) and in revenge was driven from the country.

With a small band of followers, Agnomain obtained ships and sailed to the Macotic Marshes on the Black Sea, where the Scots (as they had come to be known, from Scota, the wife of Nel) remained for nearly three hundred years. On this journey they received a prophecy from Caicher, their druid, that their descendants would one day reach Ireland. Finally a descendant named Brath led the Scots from the marshes. Again they took to ships and after a long, arduous sea voyage across the Mediterranean Sea, eventually landed on the coast of Spain. On a high mountain on the coast Brath's son, Breogain, built a city named Brigantia famed for its tall tower.

Some years later, Ith, the uncle of King Milesius, saw Ireland from the top of the tower on a cold winter's night.

Ith collected a small fleet and sailed to the island he had glimpsed from the tower in Brigantia. Landing in the north of the island, he immediately encountered the chieftains of the Tuatha de Danann, who were in control of Ireland at the time, having conquered the Fir Bolg, its previous rulers. A battle was fought between them and Ith was slain on the plain of Ith (Magh Ith). His men carried his body back to their ships and the fleet returned to Ireland.

King Milesius was outraged at the death of his uncle and sent his sons, nine in number, to Ireland with a great fleet to avenge his death. On landing in Ireland the sons of King Milesius went inland and there met the kings of the Tuatha de Danann, demananding of them either kingship or battle. The kings of the Tuatha de Danann stalled for time, asking for a week alone on the island before making a decision. To this the sons of King Milesius agreed. They then returned to their ships and sailed a short distance off the coast of Ireland. The treacherous Tuatha de Danann then raised a great druidical storm against the Milesian fleet, which drove them far to the west. They circled the island three times until the storm blew itself out, finally landing in the south of the island. Here they divided their fleet and men, Heber, the oldest son still living (most of the sons of Milesius had been killed in the landing or the storm), remained in the south of Ireland. Heremon, his brother, and the rest of the fleet sailed to the north, where they landed their ships. Coming inland the sons of King Milesius again joined their forces and engaged the Tuatha de Danann in battle, completely routing them and slaying all their leaders.

All of the sons of King Milesius were slain in the conquest of Ireland except for Heber and Heremon. Heber Finn, the son of Ir, survived, as did Lugaidh, the son of Ith. From the three sons of King Milesius to have issue, namely Heber, Ir and Heremon, and from Ith, King Milesius' uncle, are said to descend the great clans and families of Ireland, known as "Milesians," in honor of their great ancestor, King Milesius of Spain.

After conquering the island Heber and Heremon divided Ireland between them. To Heremon went the northern half of the island and there his descendants are mainly to be found to this day, including the northern and southern Ui Neill, King of Meath and Ulster, the Ulaid, the Dal Riada (who later founded the kingdom of (Scotland) and the Kings of Leinster. From Heber are said to descend the tribes and kings of the south of Ireland. Heremon gave a part of his kingdom to Heber Finn, the son of his slain brother, Ir, and from him are said to descend the Knights of the Red Branch in Ulster, Clanna Rory. From Ith, King MIlesius' uncle, are said to descend some of the tribes living in the province of Connacht

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:57 AM
The Atlantids of Northern Ireland are descendants of the Dal nAraide, a subject clan with which the Dal Fiatach (Ulaid) was often in competition. The Dal Fiatach, and also the Dal Riata, were redhaired P-Celtic immigrants from Britain, and their genealogy from Ir is false.

Milesian
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:04 AM
The Atlantids of Northern Ireland are descendants of the Dal nAraide, a subject clan with which the Dal Fiatach (Ulaid) was often in competition. The Dal Fiatach, and also the Dal Riata, were redhaired P-Celtic immigrants from Britain, and their genealogy from Ir is false.

Source?

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:18 AM
To start you off:

Chadwick, Early Scotland . especially the chapter on the irish picts

and

Anderson, Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland

and

O'Rahilly, Early Irish History and Mythology

Milesian
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:20 AM
To start you off:

Chadwick, Early Scotland . especially the chapter on the irish picts

and

Anderson, Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland

and

O'Rahilly, Early Irish History and Mythology

Thank you, unfortunately I have none of those books.
Do you have links or could you post an extract or two?

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:26 AM
And you may also want to examine the genealogies for yourself, many of which are found in the manuscript Rawlinson B 502, and available at Cork University's CELT Project website. But they're in Old Irish.

More can be found in translation in various compilations, such as:

Anderson, Early Sources of Scottish History

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 03:37 AM
But the problem is that the conclusions reached are spread out as supporting material. You should check with your library and ask for it to borrow them itself, as the books are horribly expensive. However, an essay by Kenneth Jackson, called The Oldest (or perhaps Earliest) Irish Tradition, is published by the Llanerch Press in Wales, only costs about $10, and can give you some, though slightly outdated, information about the Ulster Cycle itself.

RusViking
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Sorry, not Northern Irish.

Here is article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm

SouthernBoy
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 02:22 AM
I apologize, but I find it skeptical that so many migrations occured to the British Isles. Isn't there evidence to prove those areas (Britain, Ireland, Scotland) were densely populated sense before these migrations occured? I wouldn't think that the Celts would move around quite so much, but you are the true scholar on the Irish, Milesian. :)

Milesian
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 03:33 PM
I apologize, but I find it skeptical that so many migrations occured to the British Isles. Isn't there evidence to prove those areas (Britain, Ireland, Scotland) were densely populated sense before these migrations occured?

I'm not sure about densely populated, but people had certainly been living there before the Celts arrived. Certainly, there is Paleolithic markers in the Irish population which connects them with the Basques as being descended from the oldest modern inhabitants of Europe. But I don't know if that makes it impossible that Celts mass immigrated into the British Isles and Ireland. If they interbred, then I would assume their genetics would reflect their various lineages.



I wouldn't think that the Celts would move around quite so much, but you are the true scholar on the Irish, Milesian. :)

Well, we know that the Celts spanned a territory from the Atlantic to the Black Sea and from Scandinavia to Asia Minor, so they seem to have moved about quite a bit. Alexander the Great created an Empire from Macedonia to India in the space of a lifetime, so I'm not troubled too much by all the immigrations waves. They happened over a period of centuries, even millenia, so I wouldn't discount the possibility.

BTW, thanks for the compliment. You aren't serious are you? ;)

Akerbeltz
Sunday, August 7th, 2005, 09:58 PM
scathach was a great female warrior, taught dsome great irish men to fight too ;)A female teaching men how to fight?o.O that's not good at all...

Imperator X
Sunday, August 7th, 2005, 11:13 PM
A female teaching men how to fight?o.O that's not good at all...Scathach taught Cu Cullain. Though too bad his death was, either directly or indirectly brought about by a female. (The Morrigan)

The Eastern Celts moved into Turkey the region that is called Galatia. Milesian is also the proper term for an inhabitant of Miletos.

My father is Irish, has black hair and blue eyes, and one of our family names was Dunn which means 'Dark', perhaps a cognate of Dubh.

Todesritter
Sunday, August 7th, 2005, 11:40 PM
A female teaching men how to fight?o.O that's not good at all... It is interesting, I find, that many respond negatively to the idea of women bearing arms, or being involved in the martial spheres of life.

It seems the, ‘Girls aren’t supposed to play with spears & swords’ attitude arose in correlation with the spread of Roman Christianity.

Earlier traditions did not seem to make a taboo of both genders making war on the enemy.

Akerbeltz
Tuesday, August 9th, 2005, 10:51 PM
The Milesians then sailed west until they reached the Iberian peninsula. The tales then say they marched north, battling indigenous tribes before settling in the north (Modern day Gallicia and Asturias). From there, the Sons of Mil Espane sailed to Ireland and conquered that land.Yes, those indigenous tribes were actually proto-basques, a type of basque sub-race. Many Spaniards anthropologist statement that Astures were a tribe of Celtic origin since their begining as a tribe, race or ethnic group but logically this could not be truth since there were not Celtic tribes before arriving of Milesians to the Iberian peninsula. (I agree with you theory btw ;)) So if Astures have been a Celtic tribe then they have spoken a quite similar language to that of milesians and furthermore their physical appearance have been quite alike to the milesians and including maybe their culture and some religious rituals. If Spaniards Anthropologist statement that Astures and even other recent and evolved Basque tribes were actually Celtic tribes is because of the many Celtic trace Milesians left in those zones, and obviously the succeeding "Celtization" of almost all of the tribes living in the Iberian Peninsula and mixing in many times like in the case of Celtiberians.



So the Irish legends seem to be painting a different story.
That the Celt Iberians weren't Western Celts like the Belgae or the Gauls, but rather Celts who had came from the Eastern Mediterranian. I think this has a lot going for it.I agree in this.



Another area of interest is the Picts.
They are something of a mystery.
They were a short, dark race who seemed to speak a non-IndoEuropean langauge and perhaps related to the Basques.
People have theorised that they may be the indigenous inhabitatants and the Fir Bolg of old.
I disagree.

Yes, the Fir Bolg were small and dark, just as the Picts are described. But the problem is that the Fir Bolg are already living in Ireland before either the Milesians (Celt-Iberians) or the Tuatha De Danaan (Brythonic Celts) arrive. They seem to be a Med-Atlantid people.

The Picts however, according to the legends, arrive much later.
The Milesians have already conquered the land when the Cruthin (Picts) arrive from Iberia sometime later. They ask the Milesians for some land to settle on, but the Milesians refuse. They do however give the Cruthin (Picts) an armed contingent and the wives of the Tuatha De Daanan (Brythonic Celts) and send them to settle in Alba (Scotland)

The legends here seem to be telling us that these Cruthin (who might very well be related to Basques) were relative late in coming to Ireland and Britain. This would rule them out as being the Fir Bolg.
It is possible that the Fir Bolg were Med Atlantids who were related to them and settled in Ireland very early on, seperating from the Basque-type people from whom the Cruthin (Picts ) came at a much later time. Therfore the Picts and Fir Bolg could be related but they are not the same people.
I disagree too. The Picts were not a short and dark race but all the contrary, but they did speak a non Indo-european language which was a type of Basque language but not totally a Basque language since picts were a mixed race made up for Vasconians (primitive basques) and beaker people who arrived later to Britain, being Celts the last to arrive to the British isles. you can read a bit more regarding of this here:http://www.brm.bobos.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

Well very good analysis milesian, i agree with you in about 98% of what you infer in this post.;)

Rhydderch
Wednesday, August 10th, 2005, 09:31 AM
The Picts were not a short and dark race but all the contrarySome Picts were similar to Southern Spaniards, others were lighter, although neither were necessarily short.