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Grimr
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:29 PM
What is the racial foundation for a native american?

cosmocreator
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:50 PM
What do you mean racial foundation? They are Amerindian belonging to the mongoloid.

Grimr
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 04:52 PM
The reason I am interested is that their faces, the structure of their faces looks quite similar to the europid facial structure.

The media portrays them as a Negroid race yet I think the Native Americans are superior to the Negroes and certainly the Jews not really equal to whites or Orientals.

The Native Americans to me seem very different from any of the lower races because of the fact that they where not parasitical and they had actually built civilizations of their own with out any other influence that I can see.

Nordhammer
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Prospero
The reason I am interested is that their faces, the structure of their faces looks quite similar to the europid facial structure.

Heh, really, like how? Show us some pictures.


Originally posted by Prospero
The media portrays them as a Negroid race yet I think the Native Americans are superior to the Negroes and certainly the Jews not really equal to whites or Orientals.

The Native Americans to me seem very different from any of the lower races because of the fact that they where not parasitical and they had actually built civilizations of their own with out any other influence that I can see.

Since when does the media portray them as Negroid? You mean they portray them as lazy and being alcoholics? Everytime I see them portrayed on TV it's in some ridiculously noble fashion.

Evolved
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 09:35 PM
In what way are Native Americans superior to jews?

Native Americans aren't influential at all in the world and never really have been. Among the 52 collected studies in the field of intelligence levels in the last 35 years, the results have been averaged to the following IQ levels: Caucasian Americans 100, African Americans 85, Hispanics and Native Americans between 100 and 85, and Asians and Jews above 100. Jews have influence in much of the world and have the best armies in the world ready to fight and die to protect the interests of their small, very racist state. Every tax-paying American has sent some of their hard-earned money to Israel in the form of foreign aid or even weapons used to kill men, women and little children who are native to the land they occupy. Jews own some of the largest companies or have convinced companies owned by Gentiles to support Israel. The most powerful leader in the world is a slave to their interests.

A list of companies supporting Israel:
http://www.ujf.org/israelcompanies.htm

Compare that to living on reservations, having entire tribes wiped out by assimilation, rampant alcoholism, having to invent parts of their culture because traditions were lost over time, and owning a few casinos.

Grimr
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 10:00 PM
I remember reading in some science article that scientists inject acids and alkalis into the gonads of flies, I feel more for the flies than I do for the Jews that allegedly, supposedly where test objects for Mengele.

Jews contribute nothing the only thing they can do is parasitically steal from others and use money to gain influence. Native Americans are far superior to Jews as they where warriors, they where shamans and they had a kind of racial self-determination!

When the white men was shooting them and killing them because we are superior and we had developed better weapons did the Indians go to the nearest western banks and apply for jobs to control the Aryan working man? No the wagon burners stood and fought for nation and race! I am not saying that we should care about these people but when we win which we shall eventually do we should treat these people with a sort of respect and help them with their backwards cultures and make sure they have medical treatment.

To conclude I would like to reiterate the fact that the white eyed mutant fly is superior to the Jew and no amount of compromising or liberalization will ever change that.

As this board moves into a more intellectualist and less barbaric place of discussion we must never loose our hatred for the ones that have caused so many of us to be raped and killed! We must not be like Stormfront; we must not gain a type of respect for these long nosed, curly haired parasitic rapists.

Evolved
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 10:00 PM
They can have facial features which distance them from East Asian mongoloids, which is why they are usually classified as a separate branch of the mongoloid race. There are some who have a prominent convex nose, a different body type- tall and lean rather than the short and stocky typical East Asian- but many are indistinguishable from East Asians.

If we're talking about modern Native Americans (and not just looking at old photos of them) having European traits, the answer "why" is rather obvious.

This Inner Mongolian basketball player reminds me of a Native American:

http://www.sacstore.com/usachina/usachina17.jpg

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 10:17 PM
Prospero I think you are thinking of the Metis.

Louis Riel
http://www.monarchyfreecanada.org/images/riel2.jpg

Here are some pictures of what "pure" Natives commonly look like...though they do not usually wear the "traditional" outfits. Usually they prefer sweats or old jeans and a worn-out t-shirt. The women, especially the "heavier" ones, often enjoy wearing spandex capris. Natives are the easiest people to stereotype in the world, no word of a lie!

Cree ("tribe" -not races) -I usually cross the street when I see a face like this approaching
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume%2018%20images/makeneheisis.gif

Chipewyan -Don't see many that look like this with such a flat and broad face. Maybe they don't leave "the Rez" *shrug*
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume%2018%20images/womanch.gif

Apache -the ones that look like this typically wear "Slayer" or "Kiss" shirts. Many also listen to country, cowboy boots not uncommon. They have a "lone ranger" complex where they neglect the fact that they are the "Tanto".
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume1images/nalinlage.gif

Navajo -My personal favorite. They are not really in Canada, more in the Southern USA. I believe they do a lot of peyote (otherwise they would come to Canada, we treat them the best)
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume1images/58.gif

Blood -this is the "noble" type you see in the movies. Must be Pocahontas' father.
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume%2018%20images/18-14.gif

Okay, they pretty much all look like this guy, except add a lot of pock marks, scars, prison tats, cracked lips and a dazed expression. Now picture him saying "mmheey buhd-E..ken yeh bum me eh smouke?"
http://curtis-collection.com/tribe%20data/Tribal%20Images/volume%2018%20images/18-9.gif

I say they shouldn't have traded all their stuff for some beads. They got what they wanted. Now they still accept beads as a part of their culture. Why complain? x_hehe

This site is worth checking out:
http://curtis-collection.com/tribalindex.html

hardcorps
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 06:25 PM
That was very entertaining, Vanessa. There's no Sam Waterston-lookalikes there! By the extremely dopey look in their eyes I would think those guys would count themselves lucky to have an IQ 85+! The average 85-100 is after mixing with whites, rofl. I never realised they were so utterly mongoloid in pure form, although the sepia photos must accentuate that.:eek:

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 08:02 PM
Yes, for the most part they are obviously mongoloid. Many though are Metis or have Metis heritage so they look less mongoloid. It is not hard to distinguish them from Asians at all, and not just because of how they dress.

I doubt that on average they are a very intelligent people. They lack the ability to rise above the bad hand they are usually dealt with at birth, whereas you see many "whites" who have grown up in alcoholic homes, or other bad situations, and they have risen above it. How many of us who have family that have immigrated from Europe have standards of living way higher than what our grandparents had? Most. With Natives they can't seem to rise above, no matter how much opportunity is given to them. I think for the most part they just were not ready for the advancement brought to North America by Europeans.

Nordgau
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 03:57 PM
Here a brief description of the main anthropological sub-forms of the Indianid branch of the Mongolids (Taken from a book and translated into lousy English; sorry, there are enough pictures and maps, but I can't post them).

Pacifid race: Medium until tall grown, robust build; brachycephal; broad, rectangular face with only little emphasized cheekbones; rarely mongoloid characteristics of the eye region; medium broad, striking nose with straight or slight convex bridge profile; broad mouth line, thin lips; smooth or slightly wavy hair (sporadically lightened), beard and body hair medium strong, light brownish skin (frequently with a tinge of yellow).
Spreading: West Canadian coast and eastern Alaska; outskirts in northwestern U.S.A. and on the Rio Grande (Navajo, Apaches).

Silvid race: Tall and broad grown, robust build; mesocephal; longish-rectangular face with clear, even if moderate facial flatness, but with a very striking, narrow till medium broad nose with a convex, now and then even hooked bridge profile ("aquiline nose"); sometimes narrow, slanting eyelid slit and Mongolian fold (especially among children, among women more often than among men); broad mouth line, thin lips, often strong nasolabial folds, strong chin, smooth or tight hair, light-brown to medium brown skin with a tinge of yellow, red or copper.
Spreading: Wood region from middle to eastern Canada, Appalaches (Mohicans, Delawares, Iroquois), prairie region of the "Middle West" (Sioux = Dakota).

Margid race: Mostly medium grown, robust bone structure; mesocephal till dolichocephal, inclined forehead with emphasis of the bulge region above the eyes; low-broad face without facial flattness; small eyelid slit without Mongoloid characteristics; medium broad till broad, moderately prominent nose with a clearly retracted root and straight or concave bridge profile; moderately full lips, often slightely receding chin, smooth hair, dark brown skin with slight red tone.
Spreading: California, Sonara, widely scattered remains in Mexico, in the Rocky Mountains (Shoshons), in Florida and at the eastern coast area up to Newfoundland.

Centralid race: Medium or small grown, stocky; very brachycephal; relatively steep, but narrow forehead, rectangular face with only little emphasized cheekbones and relatively gracile features; mongoloid characteristics of the eye rare; medium broad till broad, striking nose with straight or slightly convex bridge profile; broad mouth line, moderately full lips, often slightly receding chin; smooth or slight wavy hair, medium brown, partly also fair brown skin (Albinos relatively often).
Spreading: Southern coast area of the U.S.A. and up to New Mexico and Arizona (Pueblo Indians, e. g. Hopi), eastern and southern Mexico (Maya, Azteks descendants), Central America, western Columbia.

Brasilid race: small grown, stocky, among the female sex plump build and strong lumbar lordose, but small bottom; mesocephal, relatively steep, broad forehead; oval face with only little emphasized cheekbones and soft features; mostly narrow eyelid slit, but only rarely pronounced mongoloid characteristics of the eye region; medium-broad till broad nose with high root; full until full lips, often tendency to receding of the chin; smooth or slightly wavy hair, light brown until brown skin with a clear yellow tone, sometimes also dull reddish.
Spreading: Jungle of the Amazonas bassin and the adjacent highlands in the North and South, coast areas of Brazil, Venezuela and Guayana, West Indian Isles.

Andid race: Small grown, stocky; mesocephal till brachycephal, mostly clear inclined forehead; longish-oval, among women also plump face with clear emphasis of the cheekbones; mostly no marked mongoloid characteristics of the eye region, but strong "Indian fold"; medium broad, striking nose with relatively high root and straight or convex bridge profile (sometimes slight hooked nose), nose ground often sinked forward; medium broad until broad mouth line, moderately full lips, striking chin; smooth hair, medium brown till brown skin with olive tone (especially on the sunny high-planes, in valleys more yellowish-medium brown).
Spreading: Andes (Quechua [= Inka] in the middle, Araucanians in the southern part) and coast of Ecuador, Peru and northern Chile.

Pampid (= Patagonid) race: Tall or very tall grown, broad, robust build; mesocephal or brachycephal, emphasized bulge region above the eyes; big, rectangular face with clear, even if moderate facial flatness; narrow eyelid slit with clear "Indian fold"; narrow till medium broad, mostly striking nose, mostly with straight bridge profile; medium broad until broad mouth line, moderately full or full lips; smooth hair, medium brown (in the South light brown) skin with olive tone.
Spreading: Grassland of Patagonia, of the pampas and of the Gran Chaco.

Lagid race: Medium or small grown, moderately stocky; mesocephal until dolichocephal; emphasized bulge region above eyes, robust facial skull with broad cheekbones, but without clear facial flatness; low-broad eye sockets, narrow eyelid slit, but no marked mongoloid characteristics nof the eye region; broad (in the South only medium broad) nose with clearly retracted root and straight or concave bridge profile; broad mouth line, moderately full or full lips, often slightly receding chin, smooth or wavy hair, light brown skin with yellow or copper tone.
Spreading: Mountainous country of southeastern Brazil, southern Chile as well as scattered remains in the grassland of Argentina and Paraguay and in the jungle of Brazil.

Skeptic
Wednesday, July 14th, 2004, 12:23 AM
In what way are Native Americans superior to jews?

Native Americans aren't influential at all in the world and never really have been. Native Americans aren't nearly as influential, let alone superior to Jews, but don't sell them short. Mesoamerican peoples excelled in mathematics; pre-Columbian Mexicans (Aztecs) are one of three cultures that discovered the concept of zero on their own. These people were masters of archictecture as well, the world's oldest and largest pyramids can be found in South and Central America. They were also skilled in agriculture, using complex irrigation systems to ensure an abundance of crops for harvesting.

In my opinion, the natives are an intriguing people.

Utilitarianism
Monday, August 23rd, 2004, 02:11 PM
There is some speculation that the natives of south america have australoid admixture. I can provide links if requested.

The asiatics of Greenland have more in common with lapps and siberians than true native americans. They are from a latter immigration wave.

Grimr
Tuesday, August 24th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Native Americans aren't nearly as influential, let alone superior to Jews, but don't sell them short. Mesoamerican peoples excelled in mathematics; pre-Columbian Mexicans (Aztecs) are one of three cultures that discovered the concept of zero on their own. These people were masters of archictecture as well, the world's oldest and largest pyramids can be found in South and Central America. They were also skilled in agriculture, using complex irrigation systems to ensure an abundance of crops for harvesting.

In my opinion, the natives are an intriguing people.

Why did they stop building?


There is some speculation that the natives of south america have australoid admixture. I can provide links if requested.

Go on then...

Skeptic
Tuesday, August 24th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Why did they stop building?It depends on who we're discussing. The Aztecs (Mexica) started as a nomadic tribe from what is now known as Utah. It is said that they wandered the southwest region of North America for hundreds of years, searching for a homeland. Eventually they came across the deserted ruins of an ancient city built by the Toltecs. The Mexica were so impressed by this spectacle, they named it "Tehotihuacan", or "place of the Gods", and decided to build a city just like it. Even more magnificent than Teotihuacan, Tenochtitlan was a thriving city with one of the largest populations in the world.

By the time Cortes discovered this region, the Aztec Empire (known as Anahuac) was in it's prime. Well, you know the rest. The conquistadors subjugated the natives, halting any progression they might have achieved on their own. However, I do feel that this was for the best.


Go on then...Some Anthropologists believe that the first Americans were Australoid, and Mongoloid types came in later waves, eventually outnumbering and absorbing the first inhabitants.

Grimr
Tuesday, August 24th, 2004, 10:21 PM
It depends on who we're discussing. The Aztecs (Mexica) started as a nomadic tribe from what is now known as Utah. It is said that they wandered the southwest region of North America for hundreds of years, searching for a homeland. Eventually they came across the deserted ruins of an ancient city built by the Toltecs. The Mexica were so impressed by this spectacle, they named it "Tehotihuacan", or "place of the Gods", and decided to build a city just like it. Even more magnificent than Teotihuacan, Tenochtitlan was a thriving city with one of the largest populations in the world.

By the time Cortes discovered this region, the Aztec Empire (known as Anahuac) was in it's prime. Well, you know the rest. The conquistadors subjugated the natives, halting any progression they might have achieved on their own. However, I do feel that this was for the best.

Why was it for the best?


Some Anthropologists believe that the first Americans were Australoid, and Mongoloid types came in later waves, eventually outnumbering and absorbing the first inhabitants.

Is that possible in your opinion?

Skeptic
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 02:16 AM
Why was it for the best?We'd be living in a different world had it not gone down like it did. You or I might not have been born.


Is that possible in your opinion?It's definitely possible, but I don't necessarily subsribe to that theory. Afrocentrists use it out of context to claim that the first Americans were 'black' (as in Negroid), so you have to be careful.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 04:26 AM
It's definitely possible, but I don't necessarily subsribe to that theory.

Well it's pretty much proven that the pre-Neomongoloid South Americans, were closest to equatorial populations in the Old World. This means Australoids, or a similar type.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 05:37 AM
Well it's pretty much proven that the pre-Neomongoloid South Americans, were closest to equatorial populations in the Old World. This means Australoids, or a similar type.

Yes, this is what they say but I have a question. How could Australoids have come to South America? They would have had to sail West through the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic and cross the Atlantic or they would have had to sail East across the entire Pacific and landed somewhere like Argentina. I hate to seem too racist but this seem a long way for them. In Tasmaina, Australoids lost the use of fire. It seems more probable that Australoids (meaning Australoid as a grade like Broken Hill, Cape Flats) originated in Africa. It is a shorter trip. What do you people think?

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 06:05 AM
Yes, this is what they say but I have a question. How could Australoids have come to South America? They would have had to sail West through the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic and cross the Atlantic or they would have had to sail East across the entire Pacific and landed somewhere like Argentina. I hate to seem too racist but this seem a long way for them. In Tasmaina, Australoids lost the use of fire.

But this is what the physical evidence is interpreted to point to, and it mignt be that the type isn't truly Australoid, but they probably still came from the tropical Old World.


It seems more probable that Australoids (meaning Australoid as a grade like Broken Hill, Cape Flats) originated in Africa. It is a shorter trip. What do you people think?

Now its interesting, that there could be a relationship between Lapa Vermelha and Cape Flats.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 06:09 AM
Now its interesting, that there could be a relationship between Lapa Vermelha and Cape Flats.

Wasn't it your analysis which indicated this might be so?

Allenson
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 05:06 PM
In Tasmaina, Australoids lost the use of fire.


Really? Wow, that is remarkable actually. I'm curious as to where I might find reference to this....

Time for a search!

Vestmannr
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Here is a discussion on the issue from the Edge Foundation.
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/diamond_rich/rich_p4.html
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/diamond/diamond_p5.html

Dr. Beth Gott of Monash U. is challenging this view, and claims that the Tasmanian Aborigines still had fire, but I do not think her views have been widely accepted yet.

Another article from Discover magazine.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n3_v14/ai_13473115

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 06:06 PM
Really? Wow, that is remarkable actually. I'm curious as to where I might find reference to this....

Time for a search!

They had the use of fire, but they're said to have forgotten how to start them. But some of the Tasmanian's alleged primitiveness was probably exaggerated, so I'd be unsure about claims like this. Its still possible.

Skeptic
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Well it's pretty much proven that the pre-Neomongoloid South Americans, were closest to equatorial populations in the Old World. This means Australoids, or a similar type.I haven't read enough about it to pass it off as fact.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 09:13 PM
I haven't read enough about it to pass it off as fact.

Well Lapa Vermelha certainly wasn't Neomongoloid, thats certain. From dental morphology, Neomongoloid admixture only arrived in South America, in what woud be historical times in the Old World. And its the strongest along the Pacific and in northern South America.

Extreme South America is the least Neomongoloid region of the Americas, but the east also shows less admixture.

One study found Lapa Vermelha to be the closest to Upper Paleolithic Australoids, and to Taforalt 18 and to Upper Cave 103. And another study, found the Pericu to be closest to Lapa Vermelha.

Nordgau
Friday, August 27th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Isn't it that the Indianids are anyhow only more or less "undifferentiated Mongolids", meaning: the Mongolid characteristics evolution did not "fully" take place, and that different periods of imigration and infiltration waves are reflected by different degrees of Mongolid evolution at the different Indianid subtypes, and then with Australiform and Cromagniform appearance at remains of the oldest strata. The most Mongolid in facial morphology are the Eskimids at the very northern zone of the North American continent - and they again are the connective link between Asian Mongolids proper and Indianids. (The Ostsibirid medley which sits around at the other side of the Bering street also is not as much Mongolid proper as the Tungids and others further South, but with a certain Europoid component.)

As morphologically most archaic, "Cromagniform" Indianid rest population Eickstedt sees in North America the Margids in retreat area of California, western Mexico, Arizona etc. In South America the Lagid type in eastern Brasilian mountainous regions is most archaic, with its Huarpid inland (in Patagonia) and Fuegid coastal (in Fireland) variants Southwest of it, at the extreme South America, which are even more primitive.

References:
Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt: Rassenkunde und Rassengeschichte der Menschheit (1934).
Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt: Die Erstbesiedlung Amerikas, in: Homo 2 (1951), 6-11.
Ilse Schwidetzky: Grundlagen der Rassensystematik (1974).

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Isn't it that the Indianids are anyhow only more or less "undifferentiated Mongolids", meaning: the Mongolid characteristics evolution did not "fully" take place, and that different periods of imigration and infiltration waves are reflected by different degrees of Mongolid evolution at the different Indianid subtypes, and then with Australiform and Cromagniform appearance at remains of the oldest strata.

Do you mean to ask if there were different migrations from Siberia, with different degrees of admixture from Neomongoloids? I don't know, but obvious Neomongoloid admixture seems to appear late in the Americas.

According to C. Loring Brace et al, there was no significant admixture from Neomongoloids in the Americas until the agricultural expansion, when the Neomongoloid immigrants were forced to leave Asia.

Different American racial types do show different degrees of admixture with Neomongoloids, but the Neomongoloids would only have arrived recently.


The most Mongolid in facial morphology are the Eskimids at the very northern zone of the North American continent - and they again are the connective link between Asian Mongolids proper and Indianids.

I suspect the Eskimids mignt have migrated into North America seperately. Craniometrically they're distinct from the non-Eskimids, but they're close to certain populations in Asia.


(The Ostsibirid medley which sits around at the other side of the Bering street also is not as much Mongolid proper as the Tungids and others further South, but with a certain Europoid component.)

What were Eckstedt's Siberian types, and what did he suggest their relationships to be?


As morphologically most archaic, "Cromagniform" Indianid rest population Eickstedt sees in North America the Margids in retreat area of California, western Mexico, Arizona etc.[quote]

Did he try to suggest a link between the Margids and any specific Europeans or Asians?

[quote]In South America the Lagid type in eastern Brasilian mountainous regions is most archaic, with its Huarpid inland (in Patagonia) and Fuegid coastal (in Fireland) variants Southwest of it, at the extreme South America, which are even more primitive.

But what did Eckstedt think about the Pericu and Guaycara people of Baja California? The Pericu have been found to be closer to Lapa Vermelha than the more recent South Americans are.

Nordgau
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 04:07 AM
What were Eckstedt's Siberian types, and what did he suggest their relationships to be?

A Westsibirid type in West Siberia, though may rather as a collective term for several subtypes; and an Ostsibirid type in the most extreme eastern parts of Siberia. Both - divided from each other by the proper Mongolid Tungid area - Europid-Mongolid contact forms of the northern Asian area (this general common status he wants to express by naming them both as eastern and western parts of one Sibirid general form), the first one more Europoid than the latter one. The latter one, the Ostsibirids, rather towards the Mongolid direction, but still with a visibly Europoid component. But maybe just less differenciated in their Mongolid evolution, not a Europid-Mongolid contact form in the real sense. Biasutti, as far as I see from his race map of Asia, calls the Ostsibirids Razza Paleosiberiana.


Did he try to suggest a link between the Margids and any specific Europeans or Asians?

No, he only regarded them as the most archaic and thus less Mongolid subtype. With "Cromagniform" he refered to morphological similarity and a somehow evolutionary parallel status to European Cromagnids, but he doesnt make up a direct biological connection to them.


But what did Eckstedt think about the Pericu and Guaycara people of Baja California? The Pericu have been found to be closer to Lapa Vermelha than the more recent South Americans are.

They're, as he doesn't want to make up too many subraces, generally within his Margid variety (which Biasutti calls Sonorids, Imbelloni Margids with Pueblids and Lundman Mexikids with Californids - the usual taxonomical polyphonia :P), as even older form. He mentions in that short '51 essay the Pericu explicitely as "last Aurignaciform [= Australiform] elements".

As recent Aurignaciform or Australiform "living relicts" he regards in South America the Fuegids in Fireland and the Huarpids in Patagonia - though with differences between the groups -, not the Lagids proper in the greater eastern Brasilian mountainous area; however he doesn't say anything if he then regards the Californian living Australiform rests as even more archaic than those in the most extreme parts of South America.

I must say, by the way, that in the moment I can't say what he writes in detail about that all in his '34 book. I mentioned it in my above post cheeky as "reference", but rather in a very general sense for that what I wrote, as I haven't got it here in these days. (:o And I wouldn't claim myself having really thorough expertise knowledge on Indian paleoanthropology and detailed aspects of it. :P

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 04:44 AM
A Westsibirid type in West Siberia, though may rather as a collective term for several subtypes; and an Ostsibirid type in the most extreme eastern parts of Siberia. Both - divided from each other by the proper Mongolid Tungid area - Europid-Mongolid contact forms of the northern Asian area (this general common status he wants to express by naming them both as eastern and western parts of one Sibirid general form), the first one more Europoid than the latter one. The latter one, the Ostsibirids, rather towards the Mongolid direction, but still with a visibly Europoid component. But maybe just less differenciated in their Mongolid evolution, not a Europid-Mongolid contact form in the real sense. Biasutti, as far as I see from his race map of Asia, calls the Ostsibirids Razza Paleosiberiana.

Thank you, this is helpful.


No, he only regarded them as the most archaic and less Mongolid subtype. Only. With "Cromagniform" he refered to morphological similarity and a somehow evolutionary parallel status to European Cromagnids, but he doesnt make up a direct biological connection to them.

It would have been interesting if he had, because of Kennewick, Spirit Cave and such early North Americans.


They're, as he doesn't want to make up too many subraces, generally within his Margid variety (which Biasutti calls Sonorids, Imbelloni Margids with Pueblids and Lundman Mexikids with Californids - the usual taxonomical polyphonia :P), as even older form. He mentions in that short '51 essay the Pericu explicitely as "last Aurignaciform [= Australiform] elements".

Does Mexikid refer to the racial type of the Aztecs? In the study that grouped Pericu with Lapa Vermelha, the Aztecs (Mexica) were placed as related to the Patagonians, the Pampas population, and more distantly to the Terra del Fuego and the Parana populations. However they weren't especially close to the Pericu.

Nordgau
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 06:00 AM
Does Mexikid refer to the racial type of the Aztecs? In the study that grouped Pericu with Lapa Vermelha, the Aztecs (Mexica) were placed as related to the Patagonians, the Pampas population, and more distantly to the Terra del Fuego and the Parana populations. However they weren't especially close to the Pericu.

The Meso-American high cultures are normally brought in connection with the Zentralid type, that Lundman calls Istmids, but Margoid groups may have played in to a certain degree.
Biasutti divides the brachymorphic Zentralid group into southern, hyper-brachycephalic Istmids and northern Pueblids. He puts the latter one in some connection with the Andids of South America (the Inka [Quetchua] type) and speaks of a Pueblo-Andid double group; but I don't know anything nearer about the special reasons for this, as I don't speak Italian and only know the basic features of his classification system through that book of Schwidetzky.

Do you mean with Patagonians and Pampa population the Patagonids? That would maybe make sense that Pueblid-Zentralid forms are closer to them than to the more archaic Lagids (if Parana populations means mainly them) and Fuegids. Probably these Parana and Terra del Fuego populations weren't racially, as Lagids and Fuegids, too pure, but Patagonoid influenced. That would move them closer to the Patagonid core population of the Pampas of Patagonia and away from the maybe more "pure" archaic-Australiform Pericu. - That argumentation may be weird, but in the moment the whole thing makes this way most sense for me. :D However, relating to the basic assertion, I don't see in the racial classification system a relationship or similarity of Pueblid-Zentralid forms to the Patagonids implicitly as being that close...

Lundman's division between the Margids/Sonorids into Californids and Mexikids is based on the first ones being low-skulled and the second ones high-skulled, as far as I remember. I must look up tomorrow or so what he exactly writes about Indianid types, in the moment I haven't touch to his works.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 12:32 PM
The Meso-American high cultures are normally brought in connection with the Zentralid type, that Lundman calls Istmids, but Margoid groups may have played in to a certain degree.

Thanks. The reason I asked about the Mexikids, was that the Aztecs called themselves the Mexica.


Biasutti divides the brachymorphic Zentralid group into southern, hyper-brachycephalic Istmids and northern Pueblids. He puts the latter one in some connection with the Andids of South America (the Inka [Quetchua] type) and speaks of a Pueblo-Andid double group; but I don't know anything nearer about the special reasons for this, as I don't speak Italian and only know the basic features of his classification system through that book of Schwidetzky.

Well as I said the Neomongoloid influence in the Americas is mostly concentrated on the Pacific coast of North, Central and Soiuth America. There isn't any question about wether or not there is continuity there, because Neomongoloids came along the Pacific from further north.


Do you mean with Patagonians and Pampa population the Patagonids?

The opopulations grouped together with the Aztecs were called Pampas, Patagonians and Andean Patagonians. They would probably be Pampid. And more distantly they were related to groups called Fuegians and Delta of Parana. I think these represent the Fuegid, although the Delta of Parana was more distant than the Fuegians were, from the Pampids. All of these were seperate from the other American or Old World populatoins in the study they did.


That would maybe make sense that Pueblid-Zentralid forms are closer to them than to the more archaic Lagids (if Parana populations means mainly them) and Fuegids. Probably these Parana and Terra del Fuego populations weren't racially, as Lagids and Fuegids, too pure, but Patagonoid influenced. That would move them closer to the Patagonid core population of the Pampas of Patagonia and away from the maybe more "pure" archaic-Australiform Pericu. - That argumentation may be weird, but in the moment the whole thing makes this way most sense for me. :D However, relating to the basic assertion, I don't see in the racial classification system a relationship or similarity of Pueblid-Zentralid forms to the Patagonids implicitly as being that close...

The Pericu were closest to early South Americans like Lapa Vermelha, and distant from the Fuegids and Pampids.


Lundman's division between the Margids/Sonorids into Californids and Mexikids is based on the first ones being low-skulled and the second ones high-skulled, as far as I remember. I must look up tomorrow or so what he exactly writes about Indianid types, in the moment I haven't touch to his works.

Thank you, it would be helpful.

Nordgau
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Lundman's division between the Margids/Sonorids into Californids and Mexikids is based on the first ones being low-skulled and the second ones high-skulled, as far as I remember. I must look up tomorrow or so what he exactly writes about Indianid types, in the moment I haven't touch to his works.

Thank you, it would be helpful.

I'll put off the Lundman-exegis about that until early next week. My own Lundmanica is in another apartment, but I just saw that the local library, that has his stuff, has already closed over the weekend. :D

Vestmannr
Saturday, August 28th, 2004, 10:56 PM
Could someone post a basic bibliography of anthropology of American aboriginals? I seem to find very little on the subject, and the Natives around here are unhelpful on the subject. They tend towards a 'pan-Native American' idea now that they are all 'the same'... politics over science. Also, there is a tendency to dismiss a scientific view. They are glad to discuss tribal traditions, but not archaelogy, DNA evidence, or physical characteristics.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, August 30th, 2004, 12:24 AM
The opopulations grouped together with the Aztecs were called Pampas, Patagonians and Andean Patagonians. They would probably be Pampid. And more distantly they were related to groups called Fuegians and Delta of Parana. I think these represent the Fuegid, although the Delta of Parana was more distant than the Fuegians were, from the Pampids. All of these were seperate from the other American or Old World populatoins in the study they did.

I found an interesting abstract. Its cfor "Origin of Fueguian-Patagonians: An approach to population history and structure using R matrix and matrix permutation methods", by Rolando González José, Clara García-Moro, Silvia Dahinten, and Miquel Hernández and its in Volume 14 and issue 3 of the American Journal of Human Biology.

"A complicated history of isolation between Fueguian and Patagonian groups (originated by the appearance of the Straits of Magellan) as much as differences in population structure and life strategies constitute important factors in the clustering pattern of those groups. The aim of this work was to test several hypotheses about population structure and history of Fueguian-Patagonians to propose a model that incorporates predictions for future studies. R matrix methods and matrix permutation analyses were performed upon a data matrix of craniofacial measurements of 441 skulls divided into nine samples pertaining to six Patagonian and three Fueguian populations. Association of biological distances with three matrices representing several settlement patterns was tested using matrix permutation tests. Results of R matrix study show that the minimum genetic distance obtained confirms separation between Fueguians and Patagonians. Moreover, an analysis of residual variances from the expected regression line confirms admixture between Andean and Pampean populations and Araucanian groups, consistent with ethnohistorical observations. A model representing a long history of isolation between Fueguian and Patagonians, rather than a model emphasizing differences in life-strategies, presented the best correlation with the biological distance matrix. Because similar results were already obtained in archaeological, molecular, and morphological studies, a model for the settlement of Tierra del Fuego is proposed. It is summarized by four main hypotheses that can be tested independently by different disciplines in the future."

Renegade
Tuesday, September 14th, 2004, 08:06 PM
I heard on Stormfront that they're white. :naughty

Very few if any Indians were White. However, some Indians from the East caost and great lakes area were part White. Hundreds of years before the arrival of Columbus, White settlers came to north America. These White wared against and were numbered by Asiatics. As a result the men were killed and the women were used for breeding purposes.

Here are some examples of some ancient Chippewa Indians of a White/Asian mix.

http://www.savefile.com/redir/56434.jpg

http://www.savefile.com/redir/56436.jpg

http://www.savefile.com/redir/56441.jpg

Sigurdr
Tuesday, June 28th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Ethnically speaking, i think "native american" is the best term.Concerning taxonomical term i think speaking about mongolid race is not so exact 100%.North americanoid,are evolved from ancient paleo-sibirid stock.Ok...But meso americanoid and south americanoid in particular,are evolved from palaeo mongolid(indonesid)and veddoid/australoid stock(think about Lagoa santa example).Only in part from paleo-sibirids.I think,concerning meso americanoids,they are a "meet"point beetween paleo-sibirids and palaeo-mongolids/veddoid(from south east asia).

Catterick
Tuesday, February 14th, 2017, 03:29 PM
Pacifids are close to Tungids and arrived late. The Planids (subtype of the Sylvids) are pretty much the consequence of the Appalachids (Iroquois et cetera) blending with the Planids. Eskimids speaks for itself.

The Lagid of S Brazil (Luzia's race) is the least Mongoloid of the Americans and in life lacked (according to witnesses) Mongoloid skin and hair texture. Fuegids are modified descendants of the main Paleoindian stock and the Pampids are between them, with further Mesoamerind admixture. Together these three types represent Paleoindian survivors. Genetic evidence confirms an Australoid-like population was formerly present in S America.

Then there is the great Mesoamerind or "middle Amerind" group, the Centralids and their derivatives. In the Andes a substrate of both Lagids and Fuegids existed and modified the Centralids into Andids: parallel process occurred in the racially complex SW USA. Where Athabaskans of Pacifid origin were a final precolumbian substrate. The authenticity of the Margid type has been questioned: it is closest to Neumann's Nootchid. Lastly the Brasilid of northern Brazil lived north of the Lagids and represent a Centralid migration eastward. The previous inhabitants used fishtail points and were predecessors of the Fuegians; relicts such as the Panara survive of the old pre-Brasilid population.