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Milesian
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:00 PM
From what little I've learned so far, it seems that Brunn is very prevalent in Ireland. Am I wrong in thinking that they were originally from eastern Europe and the Steppes? If so how did they become so prevalent in the western Atlantic fringe? I assume they arrived after the Atlantid types. Did they mingle with the Celts and arrive with them or did the arrive at another point in time?

Loki
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Milesian
From what little I've learned so far, it seems that Brunn is very prevalent in Ireland. Am I wrong in thinking that they were originally from eastern Europe and the Steppes? If so how did they become so prevalent in the western Atlantic fringe? I assume they arrived after the Atlantid types. Did they mingle with the Celts and arrive with them or did the arrive at another point in time?

Hello Milesian,

Actually, the Irish Brünn's origin can be traced to long before the arrival of the so-called "Atlantid" and Celtic types. The Brünns were among the first residents in those parts. Brünns are derived from Upper Paleolithic cultures - refer to this map (http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=29531). For more information on Brünns, click here (http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/rg-brunn.htm).

Regards,

Loki

Loki
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:48 PM
For a detailed discussion on Ireland's anthropological history and racial composition, click here (http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-X2.htm). This is from Carleton Coon's Races of Europe, and should answer a lot of your questions.

Milesian
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 10:37 PM
Thanks Loki, I really appreciate those links. I think I've got a better understanding now.

My only problem is that the people who rated my picture on this site both agreed that I was predominately Brunn.
However, I also read from your links that Brunn were tall and well built. However, apart from a fairly thick neck, my build is slight - average and I'm only 5' 8".

Is there room for variation within the sub-race?
Could it be to do with a mix of something else?
It was suggested that there may be a mix of Keltic Nordic or possible Med as well. Could those be the reasons?

In Irish legend (which I always feel has more than a grain of truth, backed up by what I'm discovering now about sub-races), they speak of an early group of people called the "Fir Bolg" who were said to be a small, dark (I assume they mean hair and eye colouring) people. I always assumed that I was most like them in appearance. Could these be Atlantid types, which may be mixed with my Brunn and cause my short stature and slight build? :confused:

Tore
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 10:38 PM
Culturally, the Brunns are Celts, as the term Celtic generally pertains to the indigenous peoples of Britain (Picts), who were of Upper Paleolithic derivation.

The popular usage of Celtic is not in reference to the anthropological type known as Keltic Nordic, with exception to the Franks in the Benelux and France, as well as the Helvetia in Switzerland, as the Keltic type found in these regions is linked to culture deemed celtic, whereas in the British Isles this relationship is not present. The regional disparity that exists suggests that the Keltic Nordic type may not be singular in its composition, and in fact a composite of numerous phenotypes.

Milesian
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 11:04 PM
That's interesting Tronder. So you reckon that the Picts may have been Brunn?

If that's so then these Fir Bolg may have been Brunn (if they equate to the Picts). However, the difference in stature seems unresolved as Brunns seem to be described as tall, whereas myself (and the Fir Bolg) appear to be quite short in stature.

Stll, that is something for me to think about.

Loki
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Milesian
My only problem is that the people who rated my picture on this site both agreed that I was predominately Brunn.
However, I also read from your links that Brunn were tall and well built. However, apart from a fairly thick neck, my build is slight - average and I'm only 5' 8".

Actually, you are well within the Irish average stature at 5' 8". Brunns were tall, but not very tall. Have a look at the stature map of Europe:

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe-map5a.jpg



Is there room for variation within the sub-race?
Could it be to do with a mix of something else?
It was suggested that there may be a mix of Keltic Nordic or possible Med as well. Could those be the reasons?

Yes to all. Certainly there is variation, even within subraces. Also, admixtures surely have a role to play, too. KN and Western Mediterranean admixtures are very possible, considering Ireland's racial and ethnic history. The historical maps (http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3231) I have posted should help explain. I am not finished with them yet, though.

Vojvoda
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 11:47 PM
Loki, Do you think that the map you attached seems a bit outdated? I am 188cm.

Loki
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by providenje
Loki, Do you think that the map you attached seems a bit outdated? I am 188cm.

Indeed, I have heard that average statures have been on the increase over the past century or so. However, I do not have such a map with recent figures. I doubt whether it would be significantly higher. Perhaps a cm or two... We are talking about averages here.

Stríbog
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 05:23 AM
as the term Celtic generally pertains to the indigenous peoples of Britain (Picts), who were of Upper Paleolithic derivation.

That's not true, the Celts arrived in the British Isles relatively recently. They were Continentals from France, Spain, southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. Celtic is an Indo-European language. The Picts were much darker (Mediterranean) and spoke a non-IE language. They had been in the British Isles before the Celts and were killed off by the invading Celts to some extent (look up Kenneth MacAlpin).

Saoirse
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 06:05 AM
I'm 5'9, just over the Irish average but I'm Irish :-/

Tore
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 06:52 AM
That's not true, the Celts arrived in the British Isles relatively recently. They were Continentals from France, Spain, southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. Celtic is an Indo-European language. The Picts were much darker (Mediterranean) and spoke a non-IE language. They had been in the British Isles before the Celts and were killed off by the invading Celts to some extent (look up Kenneth MacAlpin).

Yes, I am aware that the Keltic Nordic phenotype has only been present in the British Isles for a comparativley short period of time.

I was only pointing out that Celtic culture in the British Isles does not correlate with the Keltic Nordic Phenotype, rather is affiliated with Upper Paleolithics and Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/030616/030616-15.html

Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.
But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily.

In the above article, what the auther refers to as Celtic are in fact Brunns and Atlanto-Mediterraneans, confirmed by haplogroup 1 (Old European/ Upper Paleolithic Haplogroup) and its predominance in the British Isles.

http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_data.asp?dbname=ychroms&orderby=hg1&orderby_mode=desc

Nordhammer
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 07:03 AM
The average Irishman is not a Brünn. Upper Paleolithic survivors are quite rare in a relatively pure form. Only in Western Ireland are there many who are significantly of such a phenotype. The typical Irishman is a brunette Nordic.

Loki
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Trřnder
Yes, I am aware that the Keltic Nordic phenotype has only been present in the British Isles for a comparativley short period of time.

I was only pointing out that Celtic culture in the British Isles does not correlate with the Keltic Nordic Phenotype, rather is affiliated with Upper Paleolithics and Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/030616/030616-15.html

Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.
But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily.

In the above article, what the auther refers to as Celtic are in fact Brunns and Atlanto-Mediterraneans, confirmed by haplogroup 1 (Old European/ Upper Paleolithic Haplogroup) and its predominance in the British Isles.

http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_data.asp?dbname=ychroms&orderby=hg1&orderby_mode=desc

I still agree with Fionn on this. The Celtic racial and cultural influence are of a later origin than Upper Palaeolithic. Chronologically, it is rather like this:

1) Upper Palaeolithic
2) Western Mediterranean
3) Celtic (in various forms and waves)
4) Roman
5) Teutonic (first Anglo-Saxons, then Danish & Norwegian Vikings, then Normans)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Thorburn, thank you for the perspective on the increasing statures - it makes a lot of sense. :)

Loki
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Nordhammer
The average Irishman is not a Brünn. Upper Paleolithic survivors are quite rare in a relatively pure form. Only in Western Ireland are there many who are significantly of such a phenotype. The typical Irishman is a brunette Nordic.

Hello Nordhammer. In your view, what is a "brunette Nordic"? I do agree that UP survivors are quite rare in pure form - in fact I don't believe you can still find a "pure" UP anywhere. Too many people movements have happened since their times. Yet, their influence still shows in certain racial types.

Scáthach
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 12:07 PM
im just 5'8 which seems quite tall for an irish female judging by the fact that i tower over a lot of other girls :confused:

Loki
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Scathach
im just 5'8 which seems quite tall for an irish female judging by the fact that i tower over a lot of other girls :confused:

Don't worry, that only adds to your attraction power, dear Scathach ;)

Louky
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 02:23 PM
Interesting article on the recent cause of height increase:

http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/zslstature19oct02.shtml

Nordhammer
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Louky
Interesting article on the recent cause of height increase:

http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/zslstature19oct02.shtml

Mmmm... hormones...:D

Tore
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 07:49 PM
I still agree with Fionn on this. The Celtic racial and cultural influence are of a later origin than Upper Palaeolithic. Chronologically, it is rather like this:

That is precisely what I am saying, and that when one who is unknowledgable in anthropology uses the term celt, he/she is referring to the Upper Paleolithics, and not the Keltic Nordic Phenotype.

Stríbog
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 10:47 PM
The Brünns are PRE-Celtic language and culture. They are Paleolithics who spoke god-knows-what non-IE language. ;) I am avoiding ALL use of Keltic in a racial sense. Next came the Picts who were Mediterranean and spoke a non-IE language as well. The Celts (CULTURAL and Indo-European LINGUISTIC group from the west-central Continent [N. Spain, France, S. Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.]) arrived between 700 and 500 BC, and apparently displaced the older Picts and Brünns, but to a limited degree (as those types are still with us today, obviously).

Milesian
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 11:15 PM
Fionn, a chara

Could you look at the Celtic Realm if you get time and tell me what you think of my theory on the races of Ireland and their sub-racial type?

Go raibh maith agat

Scáthach
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 11:33 PM
milesian - so nice to hear someone speak/well type lol as gaeilge anseo a chara! [ps are you royal milesian from sf ireland?]

and thank you loki,youre far too sweet :D

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 04:01 AM
Another generalized Brunn. Actor Kurt Russell.

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 04:07 AM
Carroll O'Connor

cosmocreator
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 04:19 AM
I've worked with Kurt Russell. I don't know if I'd call him Brunn. He's not very big. He has a big head on a little body.

And I think Carroll O'Connor is a Borreby.

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 04:34 AM
That's what I mean by generalized. His facial features, jaw depth, and pronounced clefted chin all point towards an U/P influence. He's maybe only average height at 5'9" or 10" which would be the average Brunn height anyways. I think Brunns tend towards larger builds when compared to the tendancy of other races (i.e. nordic) but within the group itself there would be a definate "bell curve" of body classifications. He strikes me as being more towards purity than an Anglo-Saxon or Tronder would. Another example might be Rose McGowan who might exibit a Mediterranean strain.

Saoirse
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 04:44 AM
Rose is Irish/Italian.

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 05:09 AM
Jay Leno is another example of an Italian/Brunn. Just check out the size of that guy's head. I think Carroll O'Connor has a passing resemblance to this gentleman.

Sigrun Christianson
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 05:21 AM
@Scathach

Tall chicks unite!

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 08:19 AM
Actor Charles Napier might be a Brunn but he could also be a Borreby. Napier I believe is a Scottish name. Either way he is definately U/P with a massive jawline and super prominate chin.

Scáthach
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Sigrun Christianson
@Scathach

Tall chicks unite!

tall taigs unite!!! x_rofl

Nordhammer
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Zimmer Mann
Actor Charles Napier might be a Brunn but he could also be a Borreby. Napier I believe is a Scottish name. Either way he is definately U/P with a massive jawline and super prominate chin.

Borrebys are the brachycephalic element in UP man. They are more shortfaced and roundheaded than Brünn, otherwise being similar, other than Brünn being more redheaded and Borrebys more blond perhaps. Think of Borreby as an overgrown blond Alpine, and Brünn as an overgrown rufous brunette Nordic.

The gentleman here is more longfaced and definitely has an UP contribution. Probably an UP-Nordic mix.

Milesian
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 07:48 PM
[i]Think of Borreby as an overgrown blond Alpine, and Brünn as an overgrown rufous brunette Nordic. [/B]

Hmmm...are you sure I'm a Brunn??? :D

William the Conqueror
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 08:48 PM
In England, the average height (male) is about 5'10"/11". Brunn is a common sight (due to the surfeit of Irish immigration for 150 years); Anglo-Saxon types seem to be extremely common in females (but not males) for some reason. Borreby is also common. The Anglo-Saxon type (for both sexes) seems to be more common in Scotland than in England.

What baffles me most is the commonality of UP-built types with a very short stature (they are also often blond/e), which is perhaps Mediterranean in inspiration.

Zimmer Mann
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 11:39 PM
I suppose Jon Voight would be a good example of a Borreby.

Zimmer Mann
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Milesian
Hmmm...are you sure I'm a Brunn??? :D

No, not entirely. The strength of your jawline, especially viewed from the side, suggests a Brunn influence as well as the broadness of your skull. I think you lack the ruggedness of a pure U/P and have significant keltic admixture. For that matter I would hesitate to include you in a defining Brunn category.

Milesian
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 08:51 AM
Ah, thanks Zimmer Mann. I must admit I did see the resemblance with those Brunn's you posted but I did think there was a fair amount of difference also. It's remarked by my family that I'm so dark (my hair, facial growth, long eyelashes,etc). Could this be from the Keltic influence or would it suggest a slight Atlantid influence too?

Also, I always though my nose was a bit on the big side :)
What sub-racial type do you think that would fit in with?
Is it Nordic?

VikingManx
Wednesday, April 6th, 2011, 04:32 AM
If the Brunn element is pre-celtic, do we know for sure that they spoke a non-IE language? Or could they possibly have spoken a proto-Germanic dialect?

Wyrdulf
Saturday, January 21st, 2012, 11:59 AM
Ice Age Wooly Mamoth hunters were able to walk into Ireland before the land bridges were submerged.

Ice Age adaptations include the "Bobble nose", to warm the frozen air.
Depigmented skin and hair... tending to red from 10'000's of years dressed head to foot in fur.
A tendency to store fat, as Artic explorers need about 6000 cals per day.
An ability to metabolise fats.


The Ice Age would have made Siberia and Canada look mild.
These people had no central heating.
These people probably relish "Cold Snaps", are probably happier in a blizzard than on a sun baked beach... probably look to the sky every winter and hope this might be the start of it.

http://i43.tinypic.com/33usoya.jpg

Before the athletic forest dwellers turned up.