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View Full Version : Odinism:the Radical Religion of the Future?



jakobv
Tuesday, March 1st, 2005, 02:04 AM
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=236

fog
Tuesday, March 1st, 2005, 02:34 AM
GARDELL: There are really three positions: the militant racists, the nonracists and, in between, a third, "ethnic" position. I thougth most racists were pretty passive. I suppose they ignore this group.

fenriSS_
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 11:42 AM
www.odinist.com

Naggaroth
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 04:43 PM
"I found the youth today go for Odin and Thor and Freya and all the other old Norse gods."

This is how it should be. The old ancient leaders from the time our men, our vikings ruled the nordic area.

"Today, the number of white racist activists, Aryan revolutionaries, is far greater than you would know by simply looking at traditional organizations."

I also think that this is relevant for the nordic countries. Don't you think so? I do at least believe that it is like this or at least I hope that it could be like that. Because this is is in fact something that has grown up beside the growth of immigrants comming from other districts of the world.

Naggaroth
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 04:50 PM
www.odinist.com
Looked like a really cool site, this odinist.com. I really enjoyed watching it. Read some in it as well.

fenriSS_
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 05:56 PM
flott du likte siden, alltid interessant ĺ lese om hva forfedrene vĺre trodde pĺ :viking1:

Naggaroth
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 05:58 PM
flott du likte siden, alltid interessant ĺ lese om hva forfedrene vĺre trodde pĺ :viking1:
Kunne ikke vćrt mer enig. Lenge leve Odin. Og det er tross alt ikke sĺ rart at departementet har valgt navnet Odin til sin nettside.

Stig NHF
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 10:00 PM
Hah, om De likte Odinist.com so ta turen innom www.heathenfront.org .

Naggaroth
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Hah, om De likte Odinist.com so ta turen innom www.heathenfront.org .
Vet ikke om jeg likte den noe bedre, men for all del, jeg har sett verre sider. Skal ikke kutte ut ĺ dra pĺ den siden du ga meg, men jeg tror nok ikke at jeg er den som kommer oftest innom der. Dessverre kanskje, men verden er en ille plass ĺ bo pĺ, og sĺ dřr man bare. :)

Stig NHF
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Hehe nuvel, du som bur i Trondheim burde no jaggu sjĺ nćrmare pĺ den sida, er nok av bra folk oppi der gitt.

Naggaroth
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Hehe nuvel, du som bur i Trondheim burde no jaggu sjĺ nćrmare pĺ den sida, er nok av bra folk oppi der gitt.
So I've heard. Tror jeg faktisk kjenner en som er med der, men det er jeg ikke sikker pĺ. For han snakker om noe greier av og til som jeg ikke henger med pĺ. Men det er jo sant som du sier.

Likevel vil jeg si at grunnen til at jeg ikke er der inne sĺ ofte er pĺ grunn av studiene mine. Sĺ enkelt. Men det kommer jo tider senere ogsĺ. Skal ikke dř i morgen altsĺ... :)

Allenson
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 08:39 PM
Hah, om De likte Odinist.com so ta turen innom www.heathenfront.org .

I used to post on the HF forum a few years back. I went by 'Ingleric'. I haven't been back much lately...

Ahnenerbe
Sunday, March 6th, 2005, 05:52 AM
A Swedish expert on right-wing extremism says that racist Odinism is the radical religion of the future.

Mattias Gardell is a professor of religious history at the University of Stockholm's Center for Research in International Migration and Ethnic Relations. Although he is Swedish, Gardell has studied the American radical right extensively since the mid-1990s, publishing two books and scores of scholarly articles on the subject. After completing an extensive study of the Nation of Islam in 1996, Gardell embarked on an another major research project, interviewing several hundred white American racist activists and spending long periods of time with key leaders. Later this year, the results of this work, which focused heavily on the rise of neo-Paganism on the radical right, are expected to be published by Duke University Press as Gods of the Blood: Race, Ethnicity and the Pagan Revival. The Intelligence Report interviewed Gardell about the rise of neo-Paganism and its meaning for the radical right.


INTELLIGENCE REPORT: Why did you focus your most recent work on neo-Paganism and the radical right?

GARDELL: When I came to the United States in 1996, I expected to write about [Christian] Identity preachers, Klan leaders, militia leaders and all of that. I didn't expect to meet all these pagans and to see a new generation of racial activists so involved in pagan activities. I realized that this was really big, that paganism was coming up strong and Christian Identity [a racist, Bible-based religion that claims whites are the real chosen people of God and Jews are descended from of Satan] was turning into an old man's religion. It looks like a home for retired people. I found the youth today go for Odin and Thor and Freya and all the other old Norse gods.


IR: What is driving the revival of pagan religions?

GARDELL: The popularity of Odinism today is connected to the revival of paganism in general. In the first wave of this revival, the whole scene was mainly leftist. Between 1968 and 1972, it was part of the hippie counterculture, flower power, back to the land and away from modernism, capitalism, commercialism, all that kind of leftist thing. It was also connected to a rise in interest in pre-Christian African traditions and Native American traditions. There was a revival of this sort all over the Western world at that time. At that time in the U.S., the far right was basically reactionary, Christian, into 100% Americanism and all that. So paganism didn't play much of a role on the extreme right during this period. But when paganism resurfaced in the late 1980s and early 1990s, it was now connected to the right. The pendulum had shifted to the right in society in general, a turn to the right epitomized by Reagan's election and a whole new program of neo-liberal policies and deregulation and privatization, all of that.

A new generation was coming into adolescence at that time, and they were part of that rightist wave. At the same time, this generation was made up of people who had been brought up on [the fantasy novels of J.R.R.] Tolkien, who played [the popular fantasy game] "Dungeons and Dragons," and watched sci-fi epics. They also listened to all this new music — industrial music, Gothic music, black and death and thrash metal. When this generation met the Odinists, they found all of that, but in a racialized and militant form. Odinism offered them a new grand narrative. They could belong to something more important than themselves. They looked with distaste at American society with its consumerism and materialism and its stupid TV programs. Medieval knights and Vikings and all that looked attractive.


IR: Racist Odinists tend to be more independent than members of traditional hate groups. Do you think the rise of Odinism is changing the shape of the movement?

GARDELL: Definitely. Most of the traditional groups could hold their national meetings in a telephone booth, and very few of them last more than a few years — although it's also true that for each organizations that dies, another is born. Today, the number of white racist activists, Aryan revolutionaries, is far greater than you would know by simply looking at traditional organizations. Revolutionaries today do not become members of an organization. They won't participate in a demonstration or a rally or give out their identity to a group that keeps their name on file, because they know that all these organizations are heavily monitored. Since the late 1990s, there has been a general shift away from these groups on the far right. This has also helped Odinism thrive. Odinists took the leaderless resistance concept of [leading white supremacist ideologue] Louis Beam and worked on it, fleshed it out.

They found a strategic position between the upper level of known leaders and propagandists, and an underground of activists who do not affiliate as members, but engage instead in decentralized networking and small cells. They do not shave their heads like traditional Skinheads or openly display swastikas. This comes close to what the FBI said in [last year's] Meggido Report [on radical right groups]. They contended that the overwhelming majority of domestic terrorists today do not belong to any traditional organization. So you need to shift your analytical focus from organizations to a counterculture. It is a counterculture that defines itself in opposition to what is perceived as the errant direction of where American society is going — multiculturalism, big government, all of that.


IR: The radical right seems in many ways to have further radicalized over recent years, to have become Nazified. Has Odinism played a role in this?

GARDELL: Odinism has been part of this process of radicalization from the outset. It goes back, most importantly, to The Order [a terrorist group of the 1980s], which was founded by Robert Matthews, who was an early Odinist. The revolutionary Aryan scene today is largely modeled on The Order. Pagans have had another role in the radicalization of the movement: pointing out that Christianity, in their view, is the single most important cause of the demise of Aryan man. By breaking with Christianity — which they see as unnatural, a religion that hails defeat and weakness and is symbolized by a crucified loser — racist pagans burned more bridges to American society than almost any on the radical right who came before. And Odinism has also made another contribution to radicalization. In the past, militias and the "Patriots" in general claimed that the [original] American Revolution had been betrayed, that you had to have a second American revolution to return the country to what it once was. But David Lane [an imprisoned Order member who runs an Odinist propaganda ministry from his cell] broke with these ideas radically. Lane says that from the very beginning, America was part of the Zionist conspiracy. To him, that is why the American military has been engaged in all these wars ever since the country's foundation. All these wars, in Lane's view, were fought to force the nations of the world to submit to the Zionist dictatorship.


IR: So the American democratic experiment was tainted from the start?

GARDELL: It goes all the way back. Lane says you cannot be both white and American. How could you possibly be what destroys you? Racists today, in contrast to the '50s and '60s, are not waving the American flag. They are burning it. And this has helped globalize their message, which has met and combined with the anti-American sentiment traditionally found among European fascists and national socialists who never forgave America for fighting on the wrong side during World War II. That has been an important bridge.


IR: Let's change subjects. Could you give a brief explanation of Odinism and Asatrú and describe some of how they differ from Christianity?

GARDELL: Odinism is a [20th century] racist reconstruction of pre-Christian, Norse pagan traditions that were generally called Asatrú. These were the religious traditions of Europe including Scandinavia, Iceland and Greenland about 1,000 years ago before Christianity reached northern Europe. Norse traditions do not speak of one god but rather several gods and goddesses. Odinism does not see the gods as being of a different nature than man, but as basically being of the same nature. God, or the divine, permeates nature and animates all living creatures, including trees and animals, rivers and mountains. The whole earth is seen as divine. There is no special distinction given to man.

Odinism is not an anthropocentric religion at all. It sees man as being part of nature and it sees the gods and goddesses as being part of nature. Basically, it's a combination of a pantheistic notion that holds nature sacred with a polytheistic view of a plurality of gods and goddesses. This allows for direct communications between gods and man. Most people I talked to regard the myths as containing some sacred form of truth, but no one takes them literally. I have yet to meet one Odinist or Asatrúer who believes Thor is actually a red-bearded, muscular, anthropomorphic entity who wields his hammer to crush real giants. Each god has limits.

So Odinism differs from Christianity because there is no omnipotent and omnipresent god. The gods have strengths and weaknesses, they have desires, then enjoy sexuality, they have an appetite for life and they may even die. The conditions of the gods are familiar to men. This central point of kinship between man and the divine is key. So when gods and man engage, they have an interdependent relationship more modeled on the family than on one of master and servant. The energies or condensed forces of Odin, Thor, Freya, and the rest are symbolic representations of human potentials. They are aspects of man's personality that need to be addressed and balanced. So the main objective for most Asatrúers is to work on these divine inner energies in the quest for self-metamorphosis, the act of becoming a god. This is different from the Christian mystic who seeks to transcend humanity and become one with God. In a racialized context, Odinism or Asatrú translates into the notion that the European people are a divine race. We are talking about somewhere around 40,000 people in the militant racist position. More than half of young people coming into the racist right are now pagans. Young people are not being drawn in by Christian Identity. Racist paganism is the most important radical religion today.


IR: You mentioned earlier that neo-Paganism is very interested in nature. Is there a link between neo-Pagans and radical environmentalists?

GARDELL: Yes. Paganism is very nature-oriented, geared to preservation of mother earth. Pagans have a critique of modern society as destructive to this planet. To them, it's insanity to think of man as a creature above other species.


IR: Does Odinism's view of man as no more important than any other living thing make racist Odinists more willing to engage in violence against fellow humans?

GARDELL: I'm not sure if paganism is more violent than Christianity, since Christians, however sacred they consider human life, slaughtered a lot of people. Maybe there is a theoretical basis for this, but I haven't really considered it. It's also interesting thatin Norse traditions the relationships between men and women were more equal than after the introduction of Christianity. So you have the whole strong woman concept that clashes with the traditional view of women as mothers only. In the Norse tradition, women are far more independent.


IR: Is there something about American culture, other than what we've already discussed, that makes young people here particularly amenable to paganism?

GARDELL: Paganism has a resonance with traditional American anti-establishment philosophies, opposition to federal authorities and support for local self-determination. It connects to the whole Wild West mythos. And all of this is integral to the pagan message itself. You don't have any kings; you don't have any presidents. You have tribal chieftains that have authority because they have a natural or organic authority. If they misbehave, if they prove themselves to be cowards, the people can choose someone else. It's very decentralist.

Paganism also connects to American identity politics, the importance to Americans of ethnic ancestry and people's lineages. It's like the T-shirts worn by African-Americans: "It's a black thing. You wouldn't understand." It's like the revival of Native American religions, of shamanism. Through paganism, whites have an opportunity to do something similar, but distinctly their own. In the face of an ever more multicultural definition of America, they go back to northern Europe, where they find things to hold up in the face of the multiculturalism and global culture. Roots and identity are more important to Americans today than ever.


IR: Does the rise of contemporary neo-Paganism have historical parallels? And what do these tell us about the dangers inherent in this movement?

GARDELL: Yes, there are parallels, but I don't think you should compare what is happening today with the 1920s or 1930s in Germany and the rest of Europe, as many do. You need to go back a decade or two earlier and look at what happened at that time in continental Europe. There was a very similar kind of revival going on then, a reaction against the spread of rationalism, the notion that God was dead. You had the reintroduction of magic, a rise in interest in alternative religions that looked east, like theosophy and anthroposophy. There was a revival of paganism. And you had nudism and all these alternative health therapies. All of a sudden, the pre-Christian traditions of Europe came into vogue again. With all of this, you had the rise of nationalist romanticism and racial mysticism and occultism and the whole return of the medieval, chivalric sort of thing. All of the philosophers who are so popular today among racist neo-Pagans were popular then. At the time, there were all these small, small proto-fascist groups that nobody really took seriously. They were too small, too dysfunctional and fragmented, and they engaged in constant warfare among themselves. It was really hard to see that it all could eventually be turned into something as powerful as Italian fascism and German national socialism. But out of that scene eventually arose movements that gained power and threw Europe into a devastating war and created the Holocaust. So I think we should look at this very seriously. Even though some of this stuff looks very bizarre — why pay attention to people who believe in old gods like Thor and Odin or UFO cults or Hitler being alive inside the hollow earth or this whole New Age concept? — it still has a lot of potential.


http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=236 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.splc enter.org%2Fintel%2Fintelreport%2Farticl e.jsp%3Faid%3D236)

beowulf wodenson
Monday, May 30th, 2005, 05:27 AM
I've been a member of Odinist.com for almost a year now, seems to be a good group of heathens in the main dedicated to the gods and ancestral folkways. I heard about tnp through the odinist.com forum.
As for the splc report I'd not put too much stock in anything they say, a pack of liers and swindlers run by a jew and arch-con man dees. I've read the book by gardell, seemed to give a pretty fair treatment of folkish heathens at least.

fenriSS_
Monday, May 30th, 2005, 09:55 AM
Hah, om De likte Odinist.com so ta turen innom www.heathenfront.org .

http://www.heathenfront.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1919 ---slaying Fenris :laugh:

Blutwölfin
Monday, May 30th, 2005, 11:18 AM
To bring this discussion back to English :D :

Thanks for thsi article, Jakobv.
I really liked the Anti-America-aspect in it. ;)
And of course, it's great to see that the youth bethinks the old values. With being interested in the old gods, they come in contact with history and their roots and are perhaps no longer that much vulnarable to modern and hurtful influences of the oh-so-multicultural community.

It's also great to read that most of these new Odinist are no longer part of a brutal and violent skinhead-gang, but more considerated in their fight for a preservation of the nordic race.

Also, for me, it was always bad to see an overweight white American wearing the KKK-robe, waving an American flag in front of a burning cross. This man did not represent my imagination of a great "white race", to use this "sloppy" term.

berserkergrrl
Tuesday, May 31st, 2005, 09:27 PM
interesting thank you for posting this:thumbup

Huzar
Wednesday, June 1st, 2005, 09:59 AM
Ahnenerbe, your thread is very interesting, thank you very much for posting it. I'll be sincere : the new ideologic-religious reality described in the interview is similar to my personal experience. I began too, many years ago, to play with D&d , to be interested in various myth and mythologies and this was the embryonic begin of a more mature and rational reflection. After years, the childish interests, gradually evolved in an alternative approach to the traditional concept of politic and , most important to the traditional concept of political "Right" and "Left". I'm right winged in theory, but probably not in a traditional way (surely not in a traditional religious way).

Therefore, in conclusion, i'm part of the new generation described by in the interview : i was born at the end of seventies and i began to approach gradually the politic by the early nineties. Then, many points coincide.......................

invictus
Monday, June 6th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Therefore, in conclusion, i'm part of the new generation described by in the interview : i was born at the end of seventies and i began to approach gradually the politic by the early nineties. Then, many points coincide.......................I am from that same generation as well. I must say, I do feel the urge to find some kind of spiritual discipline that is in tune with my European heritage from a race-based perspective, but that also reinstates and upholds Aryan values, i.e. chivalry, honour, self-discovery, communion with nature, etc. This as opposed to the Jewish-derived money-oriented society and hollow values which has been foisted upon us and robbed us of our identity. A typically soulless invention by a soulless people.

The above, then, is the reason for my attraction to "new" racial religions like Odinism and Creativity. I feel I desperately need a spiritual framework to my rational beliefs, not to bolster them but to allow them expression with the reverence which they deserve. Unfortunately, I was never the type to quickly adopt beliefs, and I sadly find myself thinking that revival of the old religions may be "here today, gone tomorrow."

This makes me reluctant to commit to any one of them, but I am keeping an eye out for when the time is right for me to embrace one, with the exception of Christian Identity. Any religion which panders to Judeo-Christianity is just as bad, in my view. Our people need a racial religion as much as they need to be freed from the shackles of that other Jewish contrivance with which our wings have been tied for two thousand long years now.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, June 7th, 2005, 05:15 AM
I am certainly not a religious person but there is a lot of interest in the Black Sun as a religion. Of course, the Black Sun has a central eye and it is said that this eye corresponds to the one-eyed Odin after enlightnment. The Black Sun thus incorporates the old Odinic religion and combines it with the emperical knowledge of our universe. The fact is that the Black Sun is the most powerful thing in our universe so if there ever could be a physical manifestation of a god, the Black Sun (black hole at the center of each galaxy) would be it. Besides that, the Black Sun youth sub-culture has its own music and art which goes along way towards promotion. The origins for this line of thought are considered disreputable (Nazi) and so fuel this symbol as a symbol of rebellion against the Establishment (Jewish Establishment) which doesn't hurt either.

cultofodin
Friday, September 9th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Gardell is a low life that misrepresented his self to the people he interviewed for his book. He claimed to be Mathias from heathenfront to several of them. Half the book isn't even on Odinism. He talks about identity, creativity and militias more than he does Asatru. Gardell is probably an adl front. Take note of the source of the interview.

Oskorei
Friday, September 9th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Gardell is a low life that misrepresented his self to the people he interviewed for his book. He claimed to be Mathias from heathenfront to several of them. Half the book isn't even on Odinism. He talks about identity, creativity and militias more than he does Asatru. Gardell is probably an adl front. Take note of the source of the interview.

I doubt it. Gardell is one of the most unbiased writers on the right wing I've read so far. I am also certain that he is himself Asatruar (though probably not Odinist).

cultofodin
Friday, September 9th, 2005, 04:03 PM
I doubt it. Gardell is one of the most unbiased writers on the right wing I've read so far. I am also certain that he is himself Asatruar (though probably not Odinist).

He is NOT an Odinist or Asatru or whatever you choose to call it. He is a left wing professor of religious studies at the University of Stockholm. He is TOTALLY biased. He LIED to EVERY single person involved with Odinism that he interviewed about who he was and what his intentions were with the book. He also wrote a very unflattering and biased book about the nation of islam, another favorite of the adl. Believe what you want but common sense should tell people he's an adl front and even if he isn't he's still a lying sack of shit.

Wjatscheslaw
Saturday, September 10th, 2005, 01:47 AM
I consider that Racist (or Racial) Odinism have concrete chance to become a new modern! religion.

:hveđrungur:
Wednesday, September 21st, 2005, 04:11 AM
I consider that Racist (or Racial) Odinism have concrete chance to become a new modern! religion.
There should be no such thing as "Racist" or "Radical" Odinism. Odinism or Asatru, whatever title you want to use to describe the pre christian ancestral folkway of the Germanic tribes of europe is just that, a pre christian ancestral folkway. It isnt a "Racist" one but it IS a folk religion, its a part of culture and what made our ancestors who they were. It isnt a universalist religion like Christianity where anyone can follow. The Gods and Goddesses are manifestations of nature and the Germanic folk spirit and subconcious. The lore/myths are storys our ancestors believed in to further relate to the devine creating forces in nature. The germanic folk have their pre christian ways just as the asians, slavs, meds or anyone else does.

I think any "new racialst form of Odinism/Asatru" is just a ignorant bastardization of the folkway our ancestors followed. Yes, it is folkish, The Aesir & Vanir are OUR (People of strong or all Germanic ancestry) Gods and Goddesses. Odinism/Asatru transends race, its based on Ethnicity. A man of Italian, Greek, Ukranian ancestry has as much place in our folkway as a man from Japan, Africa or Isreal does....... that being none at all. If you see anyone who isnt Germanic following our ways, white or otherwise they are morons, "poseurs" if you will following the ways of a people and culture not of their own.

"Racialist Odinism" is an oxymoron, like girly man or artifical life. If something is artificial, it isnt alive. If someone isnt Germanic or from strong Germanic ancestry, they have no place following our Gods. As much as people might be put off by that, its the truth. Our ancient ways are not about race, they are about ethnicity and folk.

Our ways were never about nor should they be about "Racism". It is one thing to be proud of who you are and stick within your own, it is another to belittle or attack others because they are not of our folk.

Our folkay in its true essense is Folkish, to try create some new "Racial Odinism" will only give us good educated folkish heathen men and women bad names. National Socialist Germany allready destroyed our Holy Fylfot (Swastika) and associated with War, Muder and Genocide (Yes I do believe Hitler killed jews *gasp* I just dont believe he killed as many as the jews said he did). The runes are banned in Germany, in some countrys wearing a Mjollnir pendant links one to hatred and violence. If our ancestors were alive today they would be sickened by these acts.

The Skadi banner says "Germanic Racial, Cultural and Spiritual preservation" and with that said, I give you one heathens opinions end this post.

Farr heill!

Katia
Wednesday, September 21st, 2005, 11:48 AM
Thank you for posting this article. It is interesting indeed. What I find interesting is that he says after 1996 he came to the US and spent alot of time with Odinic "leaders", yet does not specify which ones or how their views differed, etc. Like another poster mentioned, the article was posted by the SPLC, which is hardly unbiased. I wish this researcher would have focused more on the fact that Odinism was around before Christianity and that we were trying to restore our faith from the scraps that the Christians left behind. When I am trying to explain my religion to someone this is usually the main point I try to focus on. He did make some good points, however the overall articles just leaves a yucky taste in my mouth so to speak! Oh and by the way I have never played D&D nor found a particular fascination with Tolkein, but I am a girl so maybe that's why. :D

ćţeling
Thursday, September 22nd, 2005, 08:27 PM
Groan.

Where do they keep getting these clowns? As has been said Odinism is not a racist religion, at least not in the Marxist-liberal sense. Odinism IS racially exclusive. We believe that all races have their own ancestral gods. The gods who created them and taught them. Odinism is not a political tool, or an outlet for nerds. It is a religion at least two thousand years older than Christianity. If people want to play games, or use our faith for their own agendas then they are not welcome.

Once again a totally biased article written by a marxist with an agenda. It is common knowledge that as soon as white people anywhere show a love of their folk and culture the marxists come out in full force with their "outrage". As Katia has said it would be interesting to know which "Odinists" he has actually met.

Fenris
Thursday, September 22nd, 2005, 11:23 PM
It's an interesting article, that much is certain, and I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment of my fellow Asatruari, our religion is being simply pigeonholed as another "racist" token, when in fact it is so much more than that.

While racially exclusive to north-west Europeans and those peoples from north-west Europe who forged outward from Thule - such as the Rus-vikings, that does not immediately imply that it's anti-everyone else.

Unlike Judaism, our religion does not preach that those who do not believe in our gods are animals, nor that their women are "unclean whores," it does not hold up a double standard based on creed, faith or ancestry as Judaism does - wherein it's alright for a jew to steal from a gentile, but not vice-versa. Asatru is a faith of strength, of oneness with the world and the gods, of fairness, REAL democracy and of family and folk. We're not inherently "tainted" with original sin from the moment we're conceived, nor are we forced to our knees to beg for aid from the divine as though we are but dirt on the boots of the gods. Our faith respects strength and the ability to protect the folk, but the fact that such rebellious behaviour - in Asatru and other similar folkish religions the world over - does not fit with the Judaic agenda of world hegemony is a prime example of why a slave religion of meekness and accepting defeat would be rammed down our collective throats, to keep us as easily controlled as sheep. For the most part, it worked, our people have been yoked and herded like cattle, forcefed what to believe, forcefed what to think, forcefed that we're wrong and the "minorities" are right.

That is not good for our folk, not in the slightest, so if taking up a religion that extolls the virtues of our ancestral people is racist, then by all means, call me a racist - because I believe in the well-being of my people.

Fenris
Thursday, September 22nd, 2005, 11:27 PM
A minor amendment to my above post.

It is not only acceptable by jewish religious doctrine for a jew to steal from a gentile and not acceptable for vice-versa, it is also acceptable for a jew to kill a gentile without retribution.

nicholas
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 07:47 PM
A minor amendment to my above post.

It is not only acceptable by jewish religious doctrine for a jew to steal from a gentile and not acceptable for vice-versa, it is also acceptable for a jew to kill a gentile without retribution.

The muslims have the same mentality. the hypocritical inconsistency is astounding.

Fenris
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 09:21 PM
The muslims have the same mentality. the hypocritical inconsistency is astounding.

Absolutely, and yet were we to have a similar doctrine deeply ingrained in our religious beliefs, they'd be banned faster than you could say "oppression."

Eternal Winter
Saturday, October 1st, 2005, 12:23 AM
Politics should not clash with Asatru.

Grimolf
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 06:14 PM
Politics should not clash with Asatru.
i agree, good talk is here http://www.odinist.com/othala/showthread.php?t=676

gardell also said this about the book/interview:

Often researchers are cited as evidence to back claims of racism inFolkish Asatru. An example of this is the recent (4-21-2001) interviewby the SPLC with Mattias Gardell called the "New Romantics." Many haveattempted to show that Folkish Asatru is racist using this interview. Yet it is clear from Professor Gardell's clarification, that he does notinclude ethnic (Folkish) Asatru in with the militant racist organizations. Indeed he makes a clear distinction. Below is his clarification of thematter:


Clarification concerning the article THE NEW ROMANTICS in theSpring 2001 issue of Intelligence Report.


1. I was NOT talking about the whole neo-pagan community inthe United States. The interview focused on the racist interpretation ofAsatrú often referred to as Odinism. I also tried to make clearthe distinction between the racist and ethnic positions as these two verydifferent interpretations of Norse traditions often are confused. (Thewider non-racial non-folkish pan-pagan milieu was hardly mentioned at all.There is a growing body of studies concerning the wider pagan revival butthat
was not the topic of the interview and will neither be the focus ofmy forthcoming study. However, I do will make the distinctions clear)

2. The line 'everybody supports the Unambomber' is somewhat taken outof context. It should have been made much clearer that I here talked aboutthe radical environmentalist subsection of racist Odinism where one doesfind considerable support for the Unabomber. The word 'everybody' was acasual metaphor that I would never use in writing. It came in the courseof a 4 hours something transatlantic interview over the phone and I amsorry for having made that slip.interesting article


The New Barbarians
New brand of Odinist religion on the march

http://www.splcenter.org/images/static/spacer.gif http://www.splcenter.org/images/static/spacer.gif http://www.splcenter.org/images/static/spacer.gif A neo-Pagan religion drawing on images of fiercely proud, boar-hunting Norsemen and their white-skinned Aryan womenfolk is increasingly taking root among Skinheads, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists across the nation. Asatrú leaders have opened prison ministries in at least five states recently, and their many jailed followers are heavily white supremacist. A leading proselytizer, iimprisoned terrorist David Lane, has been writing prolifically and influencing many to adopt his racist interpretations.
Bob Mathews, the late founder of The Order, of which Lane was a member, adopted a series of related beliefs. A Denver Skinhead who confessed to the November murder of a man because he was black bears an Asatrú tattoo. Some key Asatrú leaders have known neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic backgrounds.
"Suddenly," says Phil Rodriguez, a gang investigator wit the Arizona state prison system, "Asatrú's become the new big fad."
Asatrú (and Icelandic word meaning "belief in the Ćesir," or gods) has been officially recognized as a religion in Iceland since 1972. Historically, its architects have avoided racist interpretations of its Eurocentric cosmology.
But in the United States, where insiders say 15 percent of Asatrúers follow an overtly racist version of the theology, a struggle is now going on for the hearts and minds of its followers.
Experts say the religion, an offshoot of Odinism that emphasizes the magical elements of pre-Christian European polytheism, is gaining popularity among young, urban white supremacists who reject the Christian aspects of other theologies.
"Asatrú is an effort to make religion more post-Modern, hip and appealing to a generation raised on rock music," says Carl Raschke, a religion professor at the University of Denver who has studied white supremacist groups.
"It is romantic, a kind of Teutonic mythology that gives them a cultural and religious identity."
Norse Gods and the Folk
The religion, which revives a pre-Christian pantheon of Norse gods, is appealing to white supremacists because it mythologizes the virtues of early northern European whites — seen as wandering barbarians, deeply involved in a mystical relationship with nature, struggling heroically against the elements.
It sings the virtues of the tribe, or folk, strongly emphasizing genetic closeness. And it credits whites with building civilization and an ethic of individual responsibility, even as they boldly slew wild boars, fought for their tribes and explored the far reaches of the known world.
This appeal is not a new one.
Odinism, which is closely related to Asatrú, was much favored in Nazi Germany. Its Nordic/Teutonic mythology was a bedrock belief for key Third Reich leaders, and it was an integral part of the initiation rites and cosmology of the elite Schutzstaffel (SS), which supervised Adolf Hitler's network of death camps. Decades later, Odinism also influenced George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party.
According to Jeffrey Kaplan, who wrote the 1997 study Radical Religion in America, an early international promoter was Australian Nazi sympathizer Alexander Rud Mills. Mills, in turn, deeply influenced a key American Odinist, Else Christensen, who published The Odinist newsletter in the early 1970s (Christensen was recently released from prison after serving a term for smuggling marijuana).
Stephen McNallen, a Texan, formed the first American Asatrú organization, the Asatrú Free Assembly. But the perception of Nazi connections hurt him.
By 1978, McNallen, while saying he sympathized with the "legitimate frustrations of white men who are concerned for their kind," tried to lessen the "Nazi-Odinist identification." In 1987, these pressures helped convince McNallen to shut down his group.
Nazism and the Number Nine
The key successor organization was the Asatrú Alliance, started after the Free Assembly's demise by Arizonan Michael J. Murray (whose "magical" Asatrú name is "Valgard Murray").
As a teenager, Kaplan writes, Murray had been involved in the American Nazi Party, signing his letters "Heil Hitler!" into the late 1960s. In the 1970s, Murray became vice president of Christensen's Odinist Fellowship.
But by 1988, a year after he started the Asatrú Alliance, Murray found himself facing the same political pressures that McNallen had earlier. When a California neo-Nazi published a list of Murray's followers, implying that they agreed with the Californian's racial views, Murray wrote him an open letter saying the Alliance "does not advocate any type of political or racial extremist views or affiliations."
Also in the 1980s, Bob Mathews, founder of The Order, studied and practiced a variant of Odinism. In 1983, nine men led by Mathews took a "blood oath" over a six-week-old girl to create The Order, which would go on to murder and rob.
The number nine was significant to Mathews, according to a book by Kevin Flynn and Gary Gerhardt, for religious reasons: Odin learned nine songs and hung for nine nights on Yggdrasill, the tree of knowledge; Heimdall, the watchman of the gods, had nine mothers; Thor stumbled nine steps before dying in his final battle.
Today, David Lane, a leading player in The Order and one of the murderers of a Jewish talk show host in Denver, writes prolifically of Odinism in a series of right-wing publications.
"The old gods and the old religion are ours and thus relate to our race-soul," he wrote in one. "Through our myths and legends, we find a link to our past, and a rudder for our floundering race vessel."
Officials say Lane is worshipped as a folk hero by other imprisoned white followers of Asatrú and Odinism.
Also in the prisons, Valgard Murray is now finding a new audience. The Asatrú Alliance's publication, Vor Trú, lists seven prison ministries in five states: Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida and Indiana.
In Arizona alone, prison investigator Rodriguez says, up to 300 inmates have become adherents, and many are violent white supremacists. The lead propagandist, he adds, is Valgard Murray.
In Colorado, six imprisoned white supremacists formed a "kindred," or local Asatrú group, between 1991 and 1996. In federal prisons, an official says, the faith has "taken off" in the last year, growing from a handful of believers to over 100.
'A Racist and Proud of It'
In the mid-1990s, McNallen formed the latest outside group, the Asatrú Folk Assembly. Kaplan writes that McNallen was worried that Asatrú "non-racialists" were making headway "with the message that anybody could be an Asatrúer." McNallen wanted to emphasize that Asatrú was biologically linked to white Europeans.
One leader of the Folk Assembly is a known neo-Nazi. Ronald ("Ragnar") Schuett, guildmaster of the assembly's Teaching Guild, is the former Colorado state organizer of the neo-Nazi SS Action Group.
"I'm a white racist and proud of it," he told a reporter while posing in a Nazi uniform in 1992. Officials say Schuett also is linked to the Rocky Mountain Hammerskins, a Skinhead group, and may have been the outside contact for imprisoned Colorado Asatrúers.
Other Asatrúers have known anti-Semitic connections as well.
For example, Mark Thomas ("Reinhold Gast") Clinton, editor of the Asatrú journal Wolf Age, sponsored leading Holocaust denier David Irving at a 1992 gathering of the Siegfried Society in Portland, Ore. Clinton, a lawyer who once posed alongside a dead boar while holding a fearsome-looking spear, also was stopped by police in Portland in the company of two Skinhead leaders of the American Front, a neo-Nazi group. The three were reportedly handing out Holocaust denial literature.
Now, officials fear Odinism and Asatrú are spreading rapidly through the white supremacist movement. Racist material related to both belief systems is hawked in Resistance, the leading racist rock magazine (see Resisting Arrest (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=452)).
A flier from the shadowy Erulian Brotherhood, entitled "Hail McVeigh," was emblazoned with runes, the pre-Christian letters favored by Odinists. Denver Skinhead Nathan Thill, who told reporters he murdered a black man, had a "death rune" tattoo.
Some 40 Websites are devoted to forms of Asatrú (most of them nonracist). Rashcke, the religion professor, says a recent biological terrorism threat in New York City may have come from Asatrúers.
Raschke says the heroic tone of racist Asatrú helps to bind the white supremacist movement together. "If you want to create an illegal terrorist movement in a tolerant society like ours," he concludes, "you have to create a legend, a myth."

Intelligence Report
Winter 1998Also from http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=55



PITCAVAGE: Racist Asatrúand Odinist activists sometimes do this work, too. The racist women's group Sigrdrifa, which has chapters in the United States and Canada, runs a special "Odinism in Prison" project and claims active Odinist chapters in a dozen states.
[Editor's note: Imprisoned right-wing terrorist David Lane, serving a 190-year sentence in federal prison, is one of the principal propagandists for a violently racist version of Odinism, running an outreach operation from his maximum-security federal prison cell in Colorado.]

IR: And what about neo-Paganism?
PITCAVAGE: Non-racist versions of Asatrú and Odinism are pretty much acceptable religions in the prisons. But again, if it is a racist version of these religions, then those materials may be prohibited. I should add, though, that a recent law, the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, puts the burden more squarely on prison officials to make their case that particular sects or practices pose threats to security.

:hveđrungur:
Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 06:24 PM
You cannot buy into all the crap said about Valgard Murray and McNallen there because the website and author of that obviously had an agenda. These days in this sick modern world anything that is for europeans only and more specifically Germanic europeans is going to be considered "Racist" and the people who stand up for it are going to be attacked. I'm not denying anyones past but because there are groups of traditionalist folkish heathens out there does not mean all of this filth written about them is true.

Sigurd
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 04:53 PM
You cannot buy into all the crap said about Valgard Murray and McNallen there because the website and author of that obviously had an agenda. These days in this sick modern world anything that is for europeans only and more specifically Germanic europeans is going to be considered "Racist" and the people who stand up for it are going to be attacked.

I totally agree with Hved on this one!

Whilst I cannot vouch for Valgard Murray as his quality in folk as I have not read any of his articles nor come across any other opinion; I can for clear say that he does not pursue a path that would suggest him to be a "Racist". McNallen is very clearly not a "Racist", unlike the leftist media would make us believe. If you look at the home page of the German chapter of the Raven Clan (Rabenclan), you can even read an article suggesting that Heimgest DCG is leading a racist organisation...now having been an Odinic Rite member for some time, and spoken to some of the people "higher up" including Court of Gothar member Asrad CG, and they are genuinely not allied with the NS scene.

What most people do not get is that being proud of your ancestry is not something that inherently makes you hate other people's background. In fact, we as Odinists respect every ethnical group more when we define our faith as racially/ethnically exclusive - since, as opposed to the Global Villagers, this will actually preserve the diversity of ethnicities.

Either way , as free people, Odinists may follow any political or other conviction...including rightwing politics; as long as they do not bring it into their religious ideals. That some people being NS does not make the movement NS should be quite clear - but they don't see it with their blinded eyes. I mean, they keep telling us "it's just a few Muslims who are terrorist", but we always get shuffled into one drawer...and are thus suddenly the larger threat to America's society than Islamism, apparently!

Well, either way, I also agree with Hved's view expressed in earlier posts, such as the fact that distorting Odinism into anything else than what it is in its traditional and Folkish meaning - would be no less hypocritical or unnatural than the Universialist path or any other Fluff perversion of our ancient faith.

Come clear with it, as interesting as Racist Odinism may appear to some - it's just not the way forward. ;)

Moody
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Either way , as free people, Odinists may follow any political or other conviction...including rightwing politics; as long as they do not bring it into their religious ideals.

Surely some "political or other convictions" would be incompatible with Odinism?

Could an Atheist be an Odinist?
Could a Communist be an Odinist?
Could an Anarchist be an Odinist?

Could a Negro be an Odinist?
Could a Jew be an Odinist?

Could a Pacifist be an Odinist?

etc., etc.,

And is it realistic to pretend that you can separate politics from spirituality today when politics is all pervasive?

Osmaegen
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Surely some

And is it realistic to pretend that you can separate politics from spirituality today when politics is all pervasive?

No, it is not. I think this is why Theodish Belief works so well. It takes the entire culture of the ancient Heathens and tried to revive it. If ever, a theod were to try to establish a homeland, I think you would see rapid growth amongst them. In that it, and not raical Odinism may be the radical religion of the future. Most do not see Theodsmen as radicals, but if you look closely at their views you quickly realize they are.

Sigurd
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 05:36 PM
It seems like you are trying to be daft at this one. No personal offence to you, but some of these are excluded by mere logic of course.


Could an Atheist be an Odinist?

No, he could not. It is obvious that an Odinist can only be an Odinist. Being an Atheist, is, like Odinism, a religious idea (Atheism being the the belief in the lack thereof). It is obvious that since you cannot be Christian and Buddhist at the same time, that you can likewise not be Atheist and Odinst at the same time. Such is contradictory, and you know that such was not what I intended to say.


Could a Communist be an Odinist?

Technically yes, but practically no. There is no Odinist hindering a fellow Odinist from following Communist principles; but it should be obvious of course that a belief in equality (Communism) and a belief in inequality (Odinism) will of course cancel itself out; and, despite hypothetically possible, it will pretty much never happen.
Honoring his ancestors and uniting his belief in equality with equality before the law, the law being the gods ultimately, could give an (unlikely) refuge for such a person, though.


Could an Anarchist be an Odinist?

What speaks against it. Whilst Odinists favour law and order above everything else, it is possible that one person might think that primeval law would be natural chaos, and that thus such a natural law would be alright with their Anarchist ideals. Obviously not in the way that Anarchism is understood in these days, where it includes opening all borders and letting everyone share your heritage - but in the original belief that there should be no order from the state it is possible to combine the two - in a case given like above.
Surely some of the Viking raiders could fall into the both Anarchist and Odinist category, don't you agree?


Could a Negro be an Odinist?
Could a Jew be an Odinist?

Do I really need to comment this? We are talking about Odinism and convictions, and you're giving ethnicities there? :|


Could a Pacifist be an Odinist?

There is nothing that prevents him. Whilst Odinism is not a "turn the other cheek" religion, there are many other facets to it other than the "warrior aspect", so an outspoken pacifist might, although not overly happy with it, even find himself or herself at home within Odinism? No one said we all had to be warriors. ;)


And is it realistic to pretend that you can separate politics from spirituality today when politics is all pervasive?

Here I am saying Yes and No. No in the sense, that obviously your convictions need to be in unison. Thus it follows naturally that many Odinists will follow Nationalist politics, or any other Preservationist ideology, in a time where it is impossible not to have a political opinion. I have however talked to *Folkish* Odinists who are rather liberal, in their political outlook and just happen to be patriotic and honoring their ancestors; not like that is impossible?

Another "no" would be the fact that Odinism is a worldview that encompasses all parts of Germanic life. But then again, don't you agree that our ancestors were Heathens in all of their outlook. They weren't National Socialists, if that is what you are trying to make me believe.

Religion has in its purest essence always be seperate from the state. Why should we have it different now?

ćţeling
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
And is it realistic to pretend that you can separate politics from spirituality today when politics is all pervasive?


Good question.

If you follow Folkist Odinism, as opposed to universal belief, then you will probably find that the majority of practitioners are right leaning. To be Folkist is to support racial exclusion of those who are not of your racial/ethnic heritage. Now this is enough to earn you the “racist” tag today, but it does not automatically equate with race hate. In fact I do not know any Folkist who hates someone because of their race; I think we are all far more enlightened than that.

I myself am a Folkist Nationalist i.e. a blood and soil type, and I suspect that most in the Folkist Odinist movement are to some extent. Certainly I have spoke to enough online, and I meet my local hearth group for the first time this weekend.

It is correct that politics should not be brought into the functions of our belief, and we should follow our faith because we truly believe in its values and its teachings, not because it fits our political beliefs. For me it just so happens that my religious and political beliefs are pretty much complementary, but I do agree that realistically certain ideologies would be incompatible with Folkist Odinism.

Sigurd
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 05:46 PM
It is correct that politics should not be brought into the functions of our belief, and we should follow our faith because we truly believe in its values and its teachings, not because it fits our political beliefs. For me it just so happens that my religious and political beliefs are pretty much complementary, but I do agree that realistically certain ideologies would be incompatible with Folkist Odinism.

Thanks, that's one main thing I have tried to point out in the previous two posts. They can be complementary (I am also a Folk Nationalist and an Odinist at the same time), but neither should be used as an extension to the other.

Moody
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 07:19 PM
It seems like you are trying to be daft at this one. No personal offence to you, but some of these are excluded by mere logic of course.

I was responding to your claim that, "being free people, Odinists may follow any political or other conviction", only "as long as they don't bring it into their religious ideals".
This could mean anything, so I am not being "daft" as you daftly put it.

"Any" or "other" are catch-all phrases which are obviously misleading, as we now see.


It is obvious that an Odinist can only be an Odinist.

That is a very circular "logic".
Am I an Odinist just because I and others say I am one?


Being an Atheist, is, like Odinism, a religious idea (Atheism being the the belief in the lack thereof).

Atheism is a belief in and of itself. It is the rejection [a-] of god(s) [-theist]. Therefore you can believe in Odin in the way that Snorri did, in an Euhemerist way , and not literally believe in supernatural gods, but view the myths as legendary stories.
Buddhism is a religion without a God, of course.


It is obvious that since you cannot be Christian and Buddhist at the same time, that you can likewise not be Atheist and Odinst at the same time. Such is contradictory, and you know that such was not what I intended to say.

Not so; there is nothing to stop you worshipping whatever deities in whatever combination you want [ this is Henotheism]. Look at the combinations of gods & heroes worshipped by some Hindus.


it should be obvious of course that a belief in equality (Communism) and a belief in inequality (Odinism) will of course cancel itself out; and, despite hypothetically possible, it will pretty much never happen.


Doesn't liberalism carry the belief in equality with it?


Surely some of the Viking raiders could fall into the both Anarchist and Odinist category, don't you agree?

No; the Viking tales, such as the Lay of Rig show that Order of Rank was vitally important to them; also the god Tyr deified the concept of law and order. Anarchism, the rejection [a-] of rule [-archy] is antithetical to Odinist ideals.


Do I really need to comment this? We are talking about Odinism and convictions, and you're giving ethnicities there?

Well, why can't a Jew or a Negro have the "conviction" that he is an Odinist?
I just needed to find out how far you took "any" and "other".


Whilst Odinism is not a "turn the other cheek" religion, there are many other facets to it other than the "warrior aspect", so an outspoken pacifist might, although not overly happy with it, even find himself or herself at home within Odinism? No one said we all had to be warriors.

A pacifist would be deemed a coward in Odinism and would've been pressed under the bog to suffocate and die in heathen times. A faith which values Valhalla above all would hardly accept pacifists [and nor would pacifists accept [i]it].


I have however talked to *Folkish* Odinists who are rather liberal, in their political outlook and just happen to be patriotic and honoring their ancestors; not like that is impossible?

Then what are they "liberal" about, exactly?

Can you be a Liberal and an Odinist anymore than you can be an egalitarian and an Odinist?


don't you agree that our ancestors were Heathens in all of their outlook. They weren't National Socialists, if that is what you are trying to make me believe.

The ancient Heathens had no separate sense of there being a thing called 'politics'; it is completely anachronistic to suggest it. They would've not understood the concept of a separation between religion/poltics/art etc.,
Some might argue that National Socialism tried to return to that holistic approach of old.


Religion has in its purest essence always be seperate from the state. Why should we have it different now?

There was no notion of a "state" in the era you are harking back to.
The society was tribal then.
And what is the modern version of tribalism in politics?


If you follow Folkist Odinism, as opposed to universal belief, then you will probably find that the majority of practitioners are right leaning. To be Folkist is to support racial exclusion of those who are not of your racial/ethnic heritage. Now this is enough to earn you the “racist” tag today, but it does not automatically equate with race hate. In fact I do not know any Folkist who hates someone because of their race; I think we are all far more enlightened than that.

'Race-hate' is the tag given by liberals to their opponents, of course; it is also a red-herring.
If anyone hates us, we tend to hate them right back.
As you describe it, Odinism is a return to what I have called a tribal identity in the modern world; it is therefore racialist
And it is not universalist but particularist.



For me it just so happens that my religious and political beliefs are pretty much complementary, but I do agree that realistically certain ideologies would be incompatible with Folkist Odinism.

This is because there should be no separation between politics and spirituality.

That's why it is inane to suggest that we can be Heathens and hold "any other" kind of political view - Odinism is a politics too.

Sigurd
Monday, September 18th, 2006, 09:57 PM
I must agree that you have argued a good point, Moody Lawless, and I will admit that my use of the word "any" was not 100% appropriate. Though you and I probably understood what I meant by it, and that none of the convictions you asked back were seriously going to be considered. Either way, I will return a post on a definitionalist approach.

So you are calling it "racial" Odinism. So what really constitutes a race?

OK, there are commonly two theories:

-Scenario 1: The "White" Race, i.e. Europid.
This is too vague. Whilst I would gladly accept Lithuanians and Greeks as Europeans and "white", I must hint that they are not Folk to me. In fact they have their own ways: The Greeks have Hellinismos, the Slavs and Balts have Romuva - both of which are paths equally Folkish in essence as Odinism.
They have no right to be Odinists, they are not of our Folk: What is Odin and Thor to me, is Svarogh and Perkunas to them.

-Scenario 2: The European Subraces, i.e. Borreby, Nordid, Dinarid, etc.
This is too restrictive and tells nothing of the culture. It would in fact be absurd to suggest my father who is Alpinid+Atlantid to be of any different folk than my mother who is Borreby+Nordid. Both of them have a German and an Austrian parent. (That is 2 German parents in my idea, but that shall be discussed elsewhere).
And then look at Norway and Iceland - often taken as the prime Germanic countries - unlike Sweden who display a large number of Nordics, their main racial types are Trřnder and Borreby, one of which is partially and one of which is fully Upper Paleolithic.
This kind of racial approach would be wrong. To suggest a Nordid Saxon to be any more Germanic than his Dinarid Saxon neighbour would be absurd.

Thus, it is Odinism which transcends the notion of phenotype, but instead it looks towards ancestry; geared in an ethnospecific, even folk-specific way.
Thus the correct name would be Folkish Odinism, or if you will, Ethnical Odinism...but not racial Odinism since "race" is not anything that defines our ancestral cultural entity.


The ancient Heathens had no separate sense of there being a thing called 'politics'; it is completely anachronistic to suggest it. They would've not understood the concept of a separation between religion/poltics/art etc.,

Times have moved on since then. Our religion is nothing engaging in anachronism. It is moving on and ever growing. Whilst traditional values should be instilled, we should pay attention to the Now, and plan for the future. Or like the Norroena Society (http://www.norroena.org) put it in their Motto: "Hearts in the past - Minds in the present - Eyes in the future".

Looking back towards ancient times for wisdom and reaching for the values held by that society - I do that myself. I even abhor a lot of modern things, which is why I sometimes tend to agree on various aspects with even Radical Traditionalists...but we are also moving on as a Folk and cannot neglect any useful advance made in the recent centuries. (the twentieth had few indeed, true, but for example the 19th and 18th had many grand inventions - why should we not be using those?)


Some might argue that National Socialism tried to return to that holistic approach of old.

Yes, some might argue that. But wrongly. Adolf Hitler for example was a devout Christian of sorts; some of his quotes (You can read a lot of this on here (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)) do prove that. And whilst he respected Guido von List for his teachings - many of his followers were disliked by Hitler and other National Socialists (even though some of them played around a little with symbolism). So whilst they arguable (and indeed did) instilled many old German virtues in people such as comradeship, common welfare rather than individual welfare, honor, truth, pride etc etc., they did not seek to return to Heathendom, instead they felt it was obselete.

PS: If you would also like to elaborate why the topic suddenly seems to have changed from "Racist Odinism" to "Racial Odinism" in its title? Again no personal offence; I am a moderator on two fora myself (a heathen one included) and know that staff's decisions are usually well reasoned and final; but if you would still like to enlighten us into the abrupt name change?

Osmaegen
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 03:25 AM
I have a question that is sort of along the lines of this thread, excuse me if it has already been brought up. Can National Socialism be considered a form of tribalism, or would the ancient Heathens have found it to be alien to them? The reason I ask is the social structure of the ancient Heathens while stratified allowed for some movement up and down the social scale, not to mention the use of ţings to settle disputes and help make laws. At the same time there was a king who could be seen as a political head. Would this be alien to National Socialists as well? Just curious.

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 03:30 AM
i think every religion in the history of the world has believed it was the "religion of the future"

few prove to be.

Pervitinist
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 12:24 PM
i think every religion in the history of the world has believed it was the "religion of the future"

few prove to be.

i don't get the point of your destructive rhetoric

but no matter what, christianity is the religion of the past! :thumbdown Either it kills what is left of us, or we destroy it in order to live!

Pervitinist
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 12:27 PM
Atheism is a belief in and of itself. It is the rejection [a-] of god(s) [-theist]. Therefore you can believe in Odin in the way that Snorri did, in an Euhemerist way [i.e., worship him as a once great mortal chieftain who has been immoralised over the years], and not literally believe in supernatural gods, but view the myths as legendary stories.

I agree. The dichotomy of theism vs. atheism is a construct of the christian way of thinking. For someone who is beyond the categories of monotheistic theology there is no contradiction between atheism and belief in the Gods. In fact when chrisitanity first reached Greece it was the christians who were called "atheoi" for not believing in the Gods!

Opposing christianity opens the way to true "theism" even for those who are atheists by christian standards

ćţeling
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Osmaegen
Can National Socialism be considered a form of tribalism, or would the ancient Heathens have found it to be alien to them?


I would say it is more a political ideology, rather than tribal, unless you are going to argue that NS is solely a German political expression. Personally I find a lot of NS belief to be appealing, but I am not a fan of Hitler. Unfortunately it is difficult to disassociate NS ideology from Hitler, and we must be aware that in today’s climate any association with NS will be viewed as automatically negative.

The site below attempts just that:

http://www.national-socialism.com/index.php (http://www.national-socialism.com/index.php)

I personally find much of this inspiring, and I don’t believe it goes against the ethos of our ancestors. Working for the good of the community, the Folk defined as blood and soil, and finally working for the betterment of the Folk in an evolutionary context do not seem to clash with Heathen thought.

Moody
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 02:10 PM
So you are calling it "racial" Odinism.

I am saying that so-called 'Odinism' is a racial religion in that it was created and practiced in ancient Europe by a particular people - or what we would call today, a 'race'.

However, a more accurate term would be 'tribal', as I have previously indicated.

So to be more accurate: 'Odinism was a tribal religion'.

Now this is to say that the tribe was actually a more restrictive reality than is our notion of 'race' today.

The tribe was more 'racial' than the race; it was based on the real blood-ties of an extended family/kin group, and on real ancestor worship and knowledge.

The tribe would've known the genealogy of its tribe members for certain.

The Third Reich tried to reintroduce this knowledge by compelling SS men, for example, to prove their ancestry. In tribal society that would not have been necessary as such facts would have been known in such small close-knit kin-groups.

By modern reckoning, Germanic tribal society would certainly be classed as 'racial'. - And no doubt, liberals would even call it 'racist'.
But then this is just a word of abuse they like to use which is fairly meaningless now, hence my changing 'Racist' to 'Racial' in this thread's title, as the latter has meaning while the former does not.

Therefore, if I am to describe Odinism in modern terms I would say that it is a 'racial religion'.
Being more accurate [and therefore less 'modern'] I would say that it was a 'tribal religion', which is tantamount to being 'racial' today.

I also say 'so-called' Odinism when referring to the modern form because as far as I know the ancient religion wasn't called that then.
Indeed, as I indicated before, the kind of categorisation we employ today was not used then.

And this is where the confusions come in, as there are those who try to pretend that today's 'Odinism' is the same as the so-called 'Odinism' of the ancient tribes.
It is not.
Then, on the basis of this complete misapprehension they try to dictate who should and who shouldn't be an Odinist [as if a tribe could have a membership, a notion only applicable to clubs etc.,], all the time appealing to a model which didn't actually exist in ancient times.

And terms like 'racist', 'secular', 'atheist' etc., just didn't exist in the tribal era either, and have no currency if we are really supposed to be discussing an ancient faith.

Therefore, those who say that there should be no 'racism' in 'Odinism' are speaking purely from the prejudiced standpoint of modern liberals.



So what really constitutes a race?
1: The "White" Race, i.e. Europid.
This is too vague. Whilst I would gladly accept Lithuanians and Greeks as Europeans and "white", I must hint that they are not Folk to me. In fact they have their own ways: The Greeks have Hellinismos, the Slavs and Balts have Romuva - both of which are paths equally Folkish in essence as Odinism.
They have no right to be Odinists, they are not of our Folk: What is Odin and Thor to me, is Svarogh and Perkunas to them.

But you are bringing in the terms of 'legalese' here.
It is not a matter of 'right'; there is nothing to stop peoples adopting the gods of others.
During the Roman period this happened often; tribes who had come under the jurisdiction of the Roman Empire would worship their own tribal gods and by the theory of syncretism also worship the 'equivalent' Roman gods [which themselves were derived from a similar conflation with Greek gods].
The Romans welcomed foreign tribes adopting their Roman gods, and did not say that they had no 'right' to worship Mars and Tyr, and Odin and Mercury, in the same breath.

So we have two basic levels here; the tribal [or racial] and the imperial.
The former are microcosmal, and the latter macrocosmal.
The former are about blood [or race] while the latter are about power and culture.

The imperial culture, due to its power even begins to seep into the tribal.

Indeed, eventually the imperial power dissolves the tribal to a large extent [so we have families, friends, clubs, colleagues, fellow citizens etc., but no tribe].

This is when notions of Race come into play.

Much larger and less specific blood-based concepts arise, such as the type of 'race' you are referring to above.

This is a long way off from the tribe, and it is noticeable that tribal religions such as Germanic Heathenry do not survive the transition.

And it is not so surprising.
A religion which reflected the tribe is hardly going to feel at home in the imperial city-state, let alone in the modern metropolis.

New types of community demanded new types of religious association. [And this suggests that the political landscape needs to change first before there can be any genuine heathenry; Odinism is now a 'club', rather than a tribe].

Now the imperial solution began with the syncretic view [where all tribal religions were seen to share similar features and were therefore synthesised] and culminated in a 'catholic' religion for the whole empire; a non-tribal monotheistic religion.


2: The European Subraces,...This kind of racial approach would be wrong. To suggest a Nordid Saxon to be any more Germanic than his Dinarid Saxon neighbour would be absurd.

This approach is really many stages on from the tribal; on from the imperial stage, on from the medieval; it is the result of the Enlightenment and the categorisation of racial types as a science.
This type of thinking has long left the ancient tribe behind; it is almost impersonal and overly objective.
It has separated race out from all else, whereas religion is always seeking to reintegrate things.
It really cannot be seriously injected into a 'racial Odinism' or a 'tribal Odinism', as you suggest.


Thus, it is Odinism which transcends the notion of phenotype, but instead it looks towards ancestry; geared in an ethnospecific, even folk-specific way.
Thus the correct name would be Folkish Odinism, or if you will, Ethnical Odinism...but not racial Odinism since "race" is not anything that defines our ancestral cultural entity.

The term 'Folkish' is often used as a synonym for 'Racial' or even 'Tribal'; I fail to see how it moves the argument forwatds [or backwards].


Whilst traditional values should be instilled, we should pay attention to the Now, and plan for the future. Or like the Norroena Society put it in their Motto: "Hearts in the past - Minds in the present - Eyes in the future".

Fine words - but they mean very little in this connection.


Looking back towards ancient times for wisdom and reaching for the values held by that society - I do that myself. I even abhor a lot of modern things, which is why I sometimes tend to agree on various aspects with even Radical Traditionalists...but we are also moving on as a Folk and cannot neglect any useful advance made in the recent centuries. (the twentieth had few indeed, true, but for example the 19th and 18th had many grand inventions - why should we not be using those?)

I am still not clear what you intend to mean by "Folk" here.


Adolf Hitler for example was a devout Christian of sorts; some of his quotes do prove that.

Some of his other qoutes [like the Table Talk] prove the opposite.
Anyway, I was not so much referring to the [dubious and increasingly less useful] distinction between Heathen and Christian, but rather to the way that NS sought to get back to an holistic society, where religion and politics and art would all be one.
That was certainly a return to the spirit if not the letter, of 'heathendom'. Of course, the NS project was rudely interrupted, so I am talking of the potentialities involved.


If you would also like to elaborate why the topic suddenly seems to have changed from "Racist Odinism" to "Racial Odinism" in its title?

I often correct spelling mistakes in thread titles as they can give a bad impression to guests browsing the forum; just part of the constant tidying up necessary, really.
If you think there is something else behind it as your tone implies, then PM me about it, as I like to keep on-topic as far as possible on the forum itself.

Sigurd
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 04:01 PM
You have explained what you meant well enough.

Also, the question at the end to why the name of the thread was modified did not include anything else than my curiosity about it. ;)

Just a few things:

For one, I would like to ask why


I am still not clear what you intend to mean by "Folk" here.

the "you" is set in italics.

I would like to not read anything in between your lines, but from what it seems to me, it is likely to mean that you believe me either to be a Universialist or not Germanic. Neither of which is true; I follow a true Folkish path, and am by birth a good 100% of German ancestry, which would be quite so more Germanic than most British people; most Englishmen have (less so than Scots or Welsh, but still) some Celtic ancestors. Thus you would hardly be in a position to decree whether I was sufficiently Germanic or not.

If such was never your intention and you were merely asking on my opinion of Folk, then I will of course explain it to you. Whilst I would count all Germans, especially those from areas of predominant portions of my background (i.e. Austrians, Waldeckians, Bavarians) I would count all Germanics on a larger scale as "Folk" - be they Scandinavian, Anglo-Saxon or German; even Langobards are, in essence, Germanic.

Thus when I talk of "Folk", consider it as a line from the Alps northward, from the Rhine, later the Maas eastward; and from the Memel westward. The exception to that Geography being, of course, Britain and certain other tribes.

Thus "Folk" in such a context would mean to me Germans (including Austrians, Prussians etc.), English, Scottish [to an extent, interesting debate going on elsewhere on Skadi], Norman, Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic.

My "Tribe" as you would put it, would be German; but since it is also the other Germanics - i.e. the Folk - that share the Folkway, the true description would be "Folkish", not "Tribal". Besides the fact of course, that "Tribalist" Asatru is something very different, indeed the way those with a stance between Uni and Folkish have.

For another, this one:


It is not a matter of 'right'; there is nothing to stop peoples adopting the gods of others.

Fine, so, on that basis, do you believe we should let all Ugandans into Odinism, let them marry on of our women whilst they shout the blue contact lenses out of their face in the words of "Me Odins Folk, Me Go Valhalla!"? Maybe we should be open to homosexuals as well then, if we're going to make it like the leftist world we are "fortunate" enough to reside in, where we are not exclusive?! :thumbdown

Moody
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 05:39 PM
For one, I would like to ask why the "you" is set in italics.

The italics are used for emphasis; I want to know what you mean by 'The Folk' [as you do not explain it] rather than having to assume you mean it to stand for 'The Race' or 'The Subrace' or 'The Tribe' etc., - all of which words are being disputed in this thread.

In other words, after your making a term like 'race' problematic, you then go on to use 'Folk' as a substitute for it as if that were not problematic at all.

Anyway, I am glad that you are reading me closely and attending to the nuances of my writing.


I would like to not read anything in between your lines, but from what it seems to me, it is likely to mean that you believe me either to be a Universialist or not Germanic.

I believe nothing of the kind. You have recently adopted a certain stance in the arena of Heathenry and so should expect to be questioned on that stance. Particularly when you have questioned others, such as myself, in a similar way.


I follow a true Folkish path, and am by birth a good 100% of German ancestry, which would be quite so more Germanic than most British people; most Englishmen have (less so than Scots or Welsh, but still) some Celtic ancestors. Thus you would hardly be in a position to decree whether I was sufficiently Germanic or not.

I think you doth protest too much, and do make claims for yourself which are quite unnecessary; in the process of which you try to cast ethnic slurs on the English in a way which contravenes the spirit of this forum.


If such was never your intention and you were merely asking on my opinion of Folk, then I will of course explain it to you.

My intention was obvious and explained in the previous post.
It does not do to subject the term 'race' to scrutiny with the suggestion that it lacks a clear definition, and then to replace it with another term even less well-defined.
I would've expected you to give a definition of Folk when you first used it in your previous post which you claimed to be a "definitionalist"(?) post.
So why didn't you define 'Folk'?
To pretend that my asking was some obscure [and unspoken] slur on your lack of 'Celtic ancestors' is ridiculous, and cannot be supported by anything that I have actually said [perhaps you could furnish me with the quotes if I am wrong, here].


Thus "Folk" in such a context would mean to me Germans (including Austrians, Prussians etc.), English, Scottish [to an extent, interesting debate going on elsewhere on Skadi], Norman, Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic. My "Tribe" as you would put it, would be German; but since it is also the other Germanics - i.e. the Folk - that share the Folkway, the true description would be "Folkish", not "Tribal". Besides the fact of course, that "Tribalist" Asatru is something very different, indeed the way those with a stance between Uni and Folkish have.

Your use of 'Folk' above is synonymous with 'Race' to all intents and purposes.
Therefore 'Folkish Odinism' is just another way of saying 'Racial Odinism' and doesn't avoid the difficulties you apportion to the word 'race'.

As I explained previously, 'Tribal Odinism' would apply only to the historic and ancient version; 'Racial Odinism' [or 'Folkish Odinism'] refers to the modern reconstruction.

'Racial Odinism' is not 'tribal' in the real sense as the tribal organisation has long been consigned to history, so modern Odinism cannot seriously pretend to be 'authentic' anymore than can modern Druidism.

However, 'Liberal Odinism' [as you said that it was possible to be a liberal Odinist] is taking inauthenticity too far!


Fine, so, on that basis, do you believe we should let all Ugandans into Odinism, let them marry on of our women whilst they shout the blue contact lenses out of their face in the words of "Me Odins Folk, Me Go Valhalla!"? Maybe we should be open to homosexuals as well then, if we're going to make it like the leftist world we are "fortunate" enough to reside in, where we are not exclusive?!

I don't know where you got all that from; you were the one claiming that it is possible to be an Odinist while having "any" or "other conviction", [and all that that suggests] not I!

I have maintained the opposite, saying that Odinism is tribal in its historical essence, and racial in its modern translation.

To make Odinism anti-racial is to destroy it.

The other mistake you are making is to speak of Odinism as if it were a club or a political party, with membership application form!

You say above, "let them in" to Odinism, or to make Odinism "open".

You speak of Odinism as if it were an "exclusive" club!

This is a travesty of the ancient faith, which knew nothing of such 'party membership', and which knew religion as part of the total story of the tribe and its ancient ancestors to which you were fated kin.


Unfortunately it is difficult to disassociate NS ideology from Hitler, and we must be aware that in today’s climate any association with NS will be viewed as automatically negative.

Let's not forget that the Vikings had an even worse press than Hitler throughout Christendom in the Middle Ages!

Sigurd
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Your use of 'Folk' above is synonymous with 'Race' to all intents and purposes.
Therefore 'Folkish Odinism' is just another way of saying 'Racial Odinism' and doesn't avoid the difficulties you apportion to the word 'race'.

Well, either way we would put, we covered the race issue in a previous post - that Germanics do not correlate exactly with a certain Europid subracial type.


However, 'Liberal Odinism' [as you said that it was possible to be a liberal Odinist] is taking inauthenticity too far!

Yes, I said it was possible. Things being possible do still not vouch of quality now, do they? It is obvious that a liberal Odinist would be a rather bad one, since he would contradict himself earlier or later, i.e. become an utter hypocrite when dealing with some issues.
What I mean with that point here is, in other words like: Is it possible to race-mix? Yes it is. Is it desirable? No.

Also, I believe I had been wrong in meeting Liberal Odinists; I have met Libertarian Odinists though before. Which in itself, although not all too desirable would not be anything against the very principle of Folkish Odinism - if the people happen to be of such a conviction, but believe in a Folkish principle for Odinism - then there is nothing preventing them from classifying themselves as "Folkish Odinists". The question over whether people would accept them as such - since they are likely not to keep the virtues they have subscribed to by following the path of an Odinist - that is not something I will deal here. Unless, of course, prompted by yourself again; in which case my vocal chords would utter but two words - "probably not".


I don't know where you got all that from; you were the one claiming that it is possible to be an Odinist while having "any" or "other conviction", [and all that that suggests] not I!

See above, it is possible, but not desirable.

Also, I have explained before that ethnicities to my understanding do not qualify as "convictions"; if such were indeed such, the apology lies on my side for finding a fault in my command of the English language.

Other than those points: I did admit before that using "any" or "other conviction" may have been a clumsy word to use. I understood at the point of writing that people would correctly interpret that if in the same post I stated Odinism to be Folkish, that principles that would work against these ideals would obviously be excluded from the list of desirable ideals. I thought it was obvious to you that a person who believed in race-mixing and had a Japanese or African wife was not going to be a Folkish Odinist!


To make Odinism anti-racial is to destroy it.

I have never said anything other than that, except for the fact that I used different terminology to yourself; you giving it in racial and tribal terms, I giving it in folk terms.


You speak of Odinism as if it were an "exclusive" club!

Well, it kind of is. It would not be desirable to have people in that show no sign of following our principles, it would not be desirable to have people in who are not geared by ancestry to follow a Germanic path. Thus, we are better of if we are an "exclusive club". And it is a kind of "party membership" - and we as the Germanic folk following Odinism, it is our duty to have our way understood as one only for us and not for them; as the holders of Germanic culture it is amongst our duties to safeguard our heritage from any kind of exploitation, including the idea of making it universally accessible to anyone.

Finally - I would like to point out that if you think that I contradict myself in any of what I am saying - you are no less. At one point you are saying that we should be exclusive and that I would have been the one trying to make it accessible for all. And at a different point, when I state that such were not the case, that we were indeed exclusive; this is when you are telling me that we ought not to be exclusive. If you would elaborate this, please, once more, it is something you have now confused me about.

Sigurd
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 06:53 PM
In addition, but seperate to the last statement I will announce:

Do notice that it seems to be at this stage that we have similar ideas about Odinism and its practice - just define some things differently, the way that 453 grams and 1 lb. are the same thing just under a different heading ;) ; but all that we are doing is talking around each other, not talking to each other. This debate was created by splitting hairs - of course I had a good part in it by being somewhat nebulous about my viewpoints - and it shouldn't go on as a discussion forever; it would instead be easier if we kind of "sat down" and stated what our viewpoints clearly so that in future they will not be subject to misunderstandings. It's really like arguing about whether it's Ţunor, Donar or Ţo(na)rR.

I admit that I've been a bit of a pain in the course of the thread; you could of course not have known of my viewpoints; I will do better in the future, and would prefer to call for a cease to our "bickering".

PS: Don't consider this as me "giving in", it's not what I am doing. But two warriors of the same division of the army should not waste their energies on battling against each other; instead, as Odinists, we have greater battles to fight than those between different adherents of our faith. That is why I have come to the sense that I will say no more unless really needed on this topic.

ćţeling
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
Let's not forget that the Vikings had an even worse press than Hitler throughout Christendom in the Middle Ages!


This is true; however we don’t have the time to wait for Hitler’s image to change. A hundred years from now Europe may well be a medley of Asians, Africans, and Mulattos, who quite frankly are not going to care either way.

It is sound policy for Nationalists movements to stay clear of any link to NS; it cannot really do anything other that turn the public away. Especially in countries like England where we have been raised to be hostile to anything that smacks of it, perhaps introducing elements into policy might work, but it is a tricky proposition.



I also say 'so-called' Odinism when referring to the modern form because as far as I know the ancient religion wasn't called that then.


From what I understand there was no term used, although I would think that contact with Christianity would have forced followers of the old religion to define it some way, it is just that their definition has not survived.


And this is where the confusions come in, as there are those who try to pretend that today's 'Odinism' is the same as the so-called 'Odinism' of the ancient tribes. It is not.

This is all to true, and something I keep pointing out to those who like to label European peoples as “Celts”, “Germanic”, or “Slavic”. The terms were loose even in the migration period and before, they are practically meaningless today. Consider that your modern Englishman may have as much ancestry from the Celt as he does from the German, and the modern German east of the Elbe may have as much ancestry from the Slav as from the German. There are people in Italy with Germanic ancestry for example, albeit perhaps small, what “tribe” can they be other than Italian, or perhaps Lombard?

Modern Heathen thought can stay true to the spirit of the old religion, but it can never be the old religion, and is bound up in the modern nations of today. As an Anglo-Saxon Heathen I am all too aware that much of our practise is based on a minute amount of surviving evidence, Nordic literature, and a lot of interpretation. Luckily Heathenism is not dogmatic, nor is it static. It is never likely to be a major faith in any country today, but those who follow AS Heathenism, for example, can use what we know of our ancestor’s beliefs to create a “revived” English Heathenism for today.

Moody
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Finally - I would like to point out that if you think that I contradict myself in any of what I am saying - you are no less. At one point you are saying that we should be exclusive and that I would have been the one trying to make it accessible for all. And at a different point, when I state that such were not the case, that we were indeed exclusive; this is when you are telling me that we ought not to be exclusive. If you would elaborate this, please, once more, it is something you have now confused me about.

There is a big difference here.

If you belong to a tribe because you are born into it - you belong by dint of blood and fate.

Now that may be 'exclusive' in one sense, but it is the exclusivity of necessity; there is no choice in the matter.

Simply put; you are an Odinist because your father was an Odinist.


Now the alternative [and modern] narrative which you propose, that of Odinism as an exclusive club, suggests that it is alll about choice, providing that you have the 'right credentials', and that those credentials are decided upon according to the whims of the club.
You choose to join, the club choose to accept you or not.

There is nothing tribal about this.

There is nothing of the Wyrd about this.

We see this working today with so-called 'Germanic Heathens' who insist that their 'members' be non-racist!

Once Germanic Heathenism became a club it had died as a tribal religion and has lost all those deep and folkish qualities.

This is why modern Odinism cannot be separated from politics; the party type Odinism is like the 'spiritual wing' of a political party.

Fine; let's "find out what your politics are".

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 07:37 PM
i don't get the point of your destructive rhetoric

but no matter what, christianity is the religion of the past! :thumbdown Either it kills what is left of us, or we destroy it in order to live!

my post had nothing to do with christianity, and i would appreciate it if you wouldent make it so.

my point was that odinism must prove that it is indeed the religion of the future, since all religions have thought so.

Sigurd
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 09:08 PM
You choose to join, the club choose to accept you or not.

There is nothing tribal about this.

There is nothing of the Wyrd about this.

Ah, now I understand what you meant with it.

No, I never meant a "club" where it is dogmatically decided what people should believe. Dogma is something that is Christian, not Heathen; in fact, I know many people in the org I belong to who have different views on some faith-related issues, such as the Going to a Hall vs. Ancestral REincarnation vs. Combination between the two, or the Linear vs. Cycical vs. Helical time discussion. Dogma is nothing for Heathenry, you are right there.

What I meant with making it an "exclusive club", is that I believe - and pretty much all Folkish Odinists do - that it is ethnically exclusive, i.e. that only Germanics are geared to access the force of Heathenry. Since while an alien faith may be right for an alien people, it is certainly not for us; and vice versa. Of course it is there choice if they are let's say Arabs and believe they are Odinists - but the fact is that they just clearly aren't because they are not Germanics. Thus, my "exclusive-clubbing" was meant to mean that only people of predominantly Germanic background would be able to access our Odinic spirituality.



Once Germanic Heathenism became a club it had died as a tribal religion and has lost all those deep and folkish qualities.Yes, since I have understood now what you meant with the club; it is obvious. Any Germanic person is clearly geared to access it, there is no bouncer telling able to bounce them off. The "club", as I emphasised enough was an imagery pointed by you at ideals, but taken by me as being able to draw the Folkish picture as well - the actual exclusive club being, obviously: "You're Germanic, you can be Odinist"; and "you're Slavic, so you're not Odinist, you should look toward Romuva; what is Odin for me is Svarogh to you and what Perkunas is to you is Thor to me."

But a dogma like anti-x, no, that was never what I was hoping to reach by the line of argument.


This is why modern Odinism cannot be separated from politics; the party type Odinism is like the 'spiritual wing' of a political party.Well, yes and no. They aren't an extension of each other, least of all Odinism being an extension of any politics. But they obviously, in a perfect sense should corelate on the same Weltanschauung.

A main reason for separateness is that Odinist can have - no, I admit not "any other conviction" ;) - but whether they choose to be National Socialists, Folk Nationalists, Free-Thinking Tradionalists, just Patriots, true Conservatives (not the bunch we get these days, lol.) - that is of no matter. All of these will work alongside Odinism; Liberalism and Communism, yes, one can try - as I attempted to point out earlier on. But as you pointed out well enough, they could never work, because one causes you to forsake the belief in your ancestors, the other makes you believe everyone is equal - both incompatible with Odinism for the most part. (Well, more than "For the most part", I'll stop being ambiguous... :P)

This would explain why many Odinists are also Nationalists, since both Nationalism and Heathenism obviously stride for traditional values, preservation of the folk and its culture, importance of the family, doing things for the common wellbeing, be hospitable, be truthful, dedication , etc. etc.



Fine; let's "find out what your politics are".Why not. I'm a German Folk Nationalist, mainly. The way I would see society well run would be somewhere along the lines of what Heimgest DCG stated here: Community - A Lesson From Our Saxon Ancestors (http://www.odinic-rite.org/community.html) (you have to highlight to read though, something's got to be misformatted now, worked some time ago). Anything else upholding the ideas that I stated above in the explanation why many Odinist will inherently be Nationalists of some sort would however do.
More than that, I am quite a bit of an environmentalist - I will protect Mother Jorth, since she is from where we came and will go to, and if we do not care for her, she will not live and thrive. (But Hel, I won't wear the Green party cloak, for the sake of the nine worlds! :-O )

Both ideas though, I do have to admit, come from my deeply rooted belief in Odinism; though I would have to put it that way - both Environmental and Nationalist viewpoints come from something deep rooted in me - a love for my ancestry, and a love for my land and its nature - and it has of course manifested itself politically and religiously at the same time. But I never wear both cloaks at the same time, either I am going out at the public as an Odinist or a Nationalist - since there is a time for everything. So, sorry for splitting hairs once more: But whilst I can accept a person claiming that "Hitler was a heathen" (which he wasn't, but I won't go into that) and "Hitler did good work", but please, please, I cannot accept people claiming that "Hitler did Odin's work 100%". It's simply not true, and it's rehinting the point that our faith is not political per se, but that one of the statements refers to a religious issue and another to a political one. It is like a puzzle: There are two or three pieces that will fit, all pretty similar, and they will fit perfectly; but it doesn't make them a single piece.

Which doesn't get us any further either, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. ;)

Osmaegen
Tuesday, September 19th, 2006, 10:06 PM
I am saying that so-called 'Odinism' is a racial religion in that it was created and practiced in ancient Europe by a particular people - or what we would call today, a 'race'.

However, a more accurate term would be 'tribal', as I have previously indicated.

So to be more accurate: 'Odinism was a tribal religion'.

Now this is to say that the tribe was actually a more restrictive reality than is our notion of 'race' today.

The tribe was more 'racial' than the race; it was based on the real blood-ties of an extended family/kin group, and on real ancestor worship and knowledge.

The tribe would've known the genealogy of its tribe members for certain

In essence, what you are describing is Theodish Belief as put forth by Garman Lord.

Thulean Imperial Inquisitor
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 02:31 PM
Part 1





"One should consider, then, that "paganism" is a fundamentally tendentious and artificial concept that scarcely corresponds to the historical reality of what the pre-Christian world always was in its normal manifestations, apart from a few decadent elements and aspects that derived from the degenerate remains of older cultures.
Once we are clear about this, we come today to a paradoxical realization: that this imaginary paganism that never existed, but was invented by Christian apologists, is now serving as the starting-point for certain so-called pagan circles, and is thus threatening for the first time in history to become a reality--no more and no less than that." - Julius Evola in "The Misunderstandings of the New "Paganism""


"Paganism", "Ásatrú", "Ódinism"... theese are modern words for nondogmatic diverse ancient beliefs which we know too little of -- they are also words for modern (re)constructions of the ancient beliefs.


This thread starts by a text where a Swedish dude says that 'racist Odinism' is the radical religion of the future. That is promising, for the future I think that 'racist Odinism' could be a fine thing to build on before a more fitting faith emerges in the coming Aryocratic Empire (after the endsieg). Anyway, all is well until the "fluffy judger of paganity"; Hveđrungur (http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=507972&postcount=47) makes his appearence.

As so often before :hveđrungur: (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7456) starts telling other people interested in the Germanic traditions what the traditions are and aren't. Okay sure he may do that, and be right in some or even many things, but he always seems to fall down the trap of being too dogmatic... even sometimes resembling a judeo-christian bible basher who believes he has the one true version of truth. What :hveđrungur: (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7456) and other neopagans @ Skadi and all around the world must realize is that their "Paganism" is nothing but and only a (re)construction of something that was (in ancient times)! I'm not saying that people shouldn't (re)construct on the ancient traditions, I'm saying that they should keep in mind that that's what their paganism, "Ásatrú", "Folkvegr", "Ódinism" will always be; modern (re)constructions. I'm all for (re)constructions of Germanic traditions actually! Just as long as the (re)constructors; realize that their (re)constructions are only modern versions (or even imitations) of something they know not very much of, and that they don't go around telling other (re)constructors something like; "Hey, you're not a real true pagan be cause according to this the pagans in this story did this but not this".


There should be no such thing as "Racist" or "Radical" Odinism.

There should be such a thing as "Racist" or "Radical" Odinism. There are no tribes in the West anymore. There are nations, ethnicities and races. Thus be cause modern Odinsim can hardly be tribal, it must be National and/or Racial -- Folkish, if you will.


"Racialist Odinism" is an oxymoron

It is not.

I could write a longer reply to :hveđrungur: (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7456)'s statements, but I don't think that is nessecary as his statements about Ódinism are just what he want's it to be -- not what it is. As I've said before in this forum, although he may act like it, he has no right to deciede for all Germanics what their (re)constructions are and aren't.

Sigurd Eirikson (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7872) entered this thread much later. He started by stating agreement with :hveđrungur: (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7456). And he ends by writing; " Come clear with it, as interesting as Racist Odinism may appear to some - it's just not the way forward.". But he really doesn't say why, in that post, he does not consider it they way forward.

In his stating that I find him to be perhaps a but contradictary to what he wrote earlier in the same post. I quote him:


In fact, we as Odinists respect every ethnical group more when we define our faith as racially/ethnically exclusive - since, as opposed to the Global Villagers, this will actually preserve the diversity of ethnicities.

I agree with that. He writes "we define our faith as racially exclusive", yes very good. But why did he then end the post writing "Racist Odinism [...] it's just not the way forward."

And it seems to go on something like this the whole thread; "I'm not racist, but still I'm racist". Well I'm not going to reply to all in this thread, as Mr. Lawless (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=456), whom I agree with, has done so very well so far. I'm just going to take on some points I'd like to write about in relation to this thread and topic; Racial Odinism: the radical religion of the future (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=544339#post544339).





Part 2






They [our ancestors] weren't National Socialists, if that is what you are trying to make me believe.

No, they weren't -- of course not, as there were really no nation-states. The nation-state is a modern entity. But one could argue our ancestors were Tribal Socialists, and that's not really so far from National Socialism. We don't have tribes anymore in the West, but we do have Nations and Races, thus modern Ódinists should become National Socialists.


Religion has in its purest essence always be seperate from the state. Why should we have it different now?

Wrong. In the ancient world, in most countries, was a very important part of the state. And religions and politics were as one, mostly. Aren't they still today? At least they should be, methinks.


Odinism [I]is a politics too

Exactly.


Adolf Hitler for example was a devout Christian of sorts

I disagree. I think he wasn't.


Can National Socialism be considered a form of tribalism, or would the ancient Heathens have found it to be alien to them?

Tribes in the West are no more, but instead in modernity, we have nations and races. The ancient heathens did not live in nation-states, but it they had, I think National Socialism would've been their political worldview.
Anyway, no one knows this, and this speculation is mostly useless.





Part 3





Moderator Lawless (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=456) really has said all that needs to be said in reply to neopagans like :hveđrungur: (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=7456). The following quotes are among the most important in the context of this thread; Racial Odinism: the radical religion of the future (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=544339#post544339).


By modern reckoning, Germanic tribal society would certainly be classed as 'racial'. - And no doubt, liberals would even call it 'racist'.
But then this is just a word of abuse they like to use which is fairly meaningless now, hence my changing 'Racist' to 'Racial' in this thread's title, as the latter has meaning while the former does not.

Therefore, if I am to describe Odinism in modern terms I would say that it is a 'racial religion'.
Being more accurate [and therefore less 'modern'] I would say that it was a 'tribal religion', which is tantamount to being 'racial' today.

True.


[...] Odinism cannot be separated from politics; the party type Odinism is like the 'spiritual wing' of a political party.


Agreed.


Some might argue that National Socialism tried to return to that holistic approach of old.

Yes, I would argue that.

Moody
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 05:13 PM
This is true; however we don’t have the time to wait for Hitler’s image to change. A hundred years from now Europe may well be a medley of Asians, Africans, and Mulattos, who quite frankly are not going to care either way.

How can we disguise our racial intent without diluting our principles?



No, I never meant a "club" where it is dogmatically decided what people should believe. Dogma is something that is Christian, not Heathen.

There is nothing wrong with 'clubs' as such [although perhaps the political 'party' organisation is fast becoming redundant].

Clubs needn't be dogmatic, either.

The point is that the organised club version of Odinism is not anywhere near an 'authentic' version of Germanic tribal religion.


What I meant with making it an "exclusive club", is that I believe - and pretty much all Folkish Odinists do - that it is ethnically exclusive, i.e. that only Germanics are geared to access the force of Heathenry.

And this is why I asserted that Odinism is a racial religion - except that you use the word 'ethnic' to the same effect.


Thus, my "exclusive-clubbing" was meant to mean that only people of predominantly Germanic background would be able to access our Odinic spirituality.

And here too we see the distinction between 'ancient tribal' and 'modern racial'; the latter casts a wider - less exclusive - net.



the actual exclusive club being, obviously: "You're Germanic, you can be Odinist"; and "you're Slavic, so you're not Odinist".

There are certainly well-known figures on the modern Odinist scene with Slavic heritage, though.


Odinist(s) can ... choose to be National Socialists, Folk Nationalists, Free-Thinking Tradionalists, just Patriots, true Conservatives - that is of no matter. All of these will work alongside Odinism ...

I can understand NS and 'Folk Nationalists' being Odinists; but I find the others hard to stomach.
Once you start to join Odinism with those other categories it seems that Odinism just becomes a fad or a label.
Or else it becomes more like a re-enactors club.


both Environmental and Nationalist viewpoints come from something deep rooted in me - a love for my ancestry, and a love for my land and its nature - and it has of course manifested itself politically and religiously at the same time. But I never wear both cloaks at the same time, either I am going out at the public as an Odinist or a Nationalist - since there is a time for everything.

If Odinism expresses your sense of "ethnic" identity, your committment to Enviromentalism [although I am suspicious of this movement as it is today] and your Nationalism, then your Odinism is essentially political/religious.
I don't see how you can divorce the two in any meaningful way.
Surely the only people who need to do that are those who hold political views which are divergent from Odinism.
But aren't they more like 'weekend pagans'?


So, sorry for splitting hairs once more: But whilst I can accept a person claiming that "Hitler was a heathen" (which he wasn't, but I won't go into that) and "Hitler did good work", but please, please, I cannot accept people claiming that "Hitler did Odin's work 100%".

Hitler famously claimed that by opposing the Jew he was 'doing the work of the Lord', and he was speaking there in a Christian context to an extent.

However, I don't think it follows that Odinists should see themselves as "doing Odin's work" as Odin isn't that kind of god!

Odinists are not 'Odin's workers', much less are they Odin's servants.

Hitler also said that it wasn't feasible to revive Odinism in the Third Reich, and this was one of his very perceptive remarks.
This was because under the Third Reich, a new kind spirituality was being gathered, at once among the Folk and among the Elite.
A spirituality which revived the best aspects of paganism and combined them with the Germanic elements of Christianity.
One of the great tragedies of the defeat of 1945 was that this holy project was aborted.




I'm not saying that people shouldn't (re)construct on the ancient traditions, I'm saying that they should keep in mind that that's what their paganism, "Ásatrú", "Folkvegr", "Ódinism" will always be; modern (re)constructions. I'm all for (re)constructions of Germanic traditions actually! Just as long as the (re)constructors; realize that their (re)constructions are only modern versions (or even imitations) of something they know not very much of

I agree; but there is another worry.
Is there not the danger that a rather 'liberal' form of Odinism etc., becomes a soft substitute for the real work?
Even worse, it becomes an excuse not to engage in the real task, the real task being to create a modern version of National Socialism as a totalised political/spiritual/aesthetic philosophy.
The kind of work that you, Thulean are immersed in; a work which takes great courage and tenacity.

How can I put this?
I can only say that I am highly suspicious of those who seek to deny the greatness of Adolf Hitler, a man who was beyond simple categories such as 'christian' and 'pagan' - a man who was beyond good & evil.


But one could argue our ancestors were Tribal Socialists, and that's not really so far from National Socialism. We don't have tribes anymore in the West, but we do have Nations and Races, thus modern Ódinists should become National Socialists.

'Tribal Socialist' is a nice turn of phrase, and really helps to define the term 'National Socialist' in a far deeper sense.
Thank you.

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I agree with that. He writes "we define our faith as racially exclusive", yes very good. But why did he then end the post writing "Racist Odinism [...] it's just not the way forward."

Good that you mention this. Maybe some explanation is needed.

It's a distinction like between Nationalist and National Socialist - i.e. whilst all NS are Nationalists, not all Nationalists are NS; and whilst all racists see something on a racial basis, not all that see something on a racial basis are racists per se

Important to note, there is a difference between the definitions of "racial", "racialist" and "racist".

-"Racial" would mean something exclusive to a race.

-"Racialist" would mean to work towards the benefit of one's background, considering race to be the central part of that stride (as opposed to Nationalist - who sees it in the nation or a Patriot - who sees it in the fatherland)

-"Racist" would mean working towards the benefit of one's background, on the basis of putting another group at severe disadvantage. It has not always been like that, one was able to use it in the 1920s interchangeably with "Racialist", but in the context, representative of its modern meaning, it was meant to imply the White Supremacist circle.

Odinism would be "racial" (except for the fact that it is Folkish or Tribal - as we have established) if at all - since it is only restricted to a certain group. It is not "racialist" because its strides are religious rather than on the grounds of race. And it is not "racist" because it does not put other groups at disadvantage -> they can still follow their ways.

Maybe I should have employed a different use of terms, because using these similar words has apparently caused confusion. Thus, whilst it seems to some that I have contradicted myself here, I haven't. ;)



However, I don't think it follows that Odinists should see themselves as "doing Odin's work" as Odin isn't that kind of god!No, that is not what I sought to imply. We are not doing "Odin's work", because our gods leave us to do as we care; they may act as guides for us, but not as almightiness. The Norns may weave the patterns of Wyrd - but we can influence the way it is woven (to an extent.)

What I sought to instead imply with that example was to hint at the quote you quote yourself, where A. Hitler said he was "doing the work of the lord". ;)


I can only say that I am highly suspicious of those who seek to deny the greatness of Adolf Hitler, a man who was beyond simple categories such as 'christian' and 'pagan' - a man who was beyond good & evil.
All I said about a small man with a moustache was that he had ties with the church and saw himself as a devout Christian. You know - Charlemagne and Barbarossa also had some Germanic principles - it didn't make them Odinists, but instead fanatic followers of the Christian faith. I believe that it was in fact his Christian faith that originally woke his hatred of the Jews: Martin Luther had already written a book against the Jews over 400 years before Hitler came to power.

No, I am not denying his greatness either. Although I am not obsessed with him, I see him as what he was - both a genius and a madman. Whilst he did put into practice many things beneficial to the Folk, some things were harmful to our people; he was a fanatic in his things.

Yes, Hitler was right the way he looked; but not all of applying it worked out in a favorable way. And it is because he was not only a genius but also a madman in his latest days:

Hitler had too much of Loki in himself. Loki, as you may know, aided the gods greatly in the beginnings: He helped Thor recover his Hammer, he was a blood brother of Odin. But later, he turned against them and predated them: He fathered Fenrir and Jormungand (spelling?) - two of the greatest evils ever to come to the nine worlds.

Thus, whilst I believe that in the beginnings, maybe until about 1940/41/42 - Hitler was working in the favour of the people; after that the tide turned and many of his orders were pure folly...and for that he should be bound.

Had one deposed him at the height of his powers and replaced him, or let him find all reason that he had earlier on then we might have won. Maybe, if Rudolf Heß had not been labelled a traitor for trying to prevent a two-front-war and instead been freed to be able to make peace, we could have crushed the Soviet Union and its vassal border states.

A mission that does not reach its goal was a mission in vain, and has to be applied differently another day. Which is why all the glorificiation of Hitler will not get our lands anywhere, but instead we should look at some of the earlier policies, and take an example, whilst avoiding some of the later mistakes that led him on his road to Niflhel.

Whilst National Socialism in its purest form is nothing to be condemned - it would have to be carried out very carefully to succeed without hurting the interests of our people.

Thulean Imperial Inquisitor
Wednesday, September 20th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Promising idea, that the title of this thread presents. But I will rather see it this way:
Racial Odinism: the religion that influences the religion of the future.

"the religion that influences the religion of the future?" one may think, "is that not disrespectful of Ódinism?". No. Ódinism as it was is near dead really -- and it will not return from the dead just as it was; that age is gone, a long time ago. Now, it only faintly lives in the blood and as a mostly weak (re)constructed religion (sometimes it can't even be called a religion, more like a hobby).

I agree with Hitler and other members of the Third reich; Ódinism is not feasible for modernity, not as the (future) religion of Eurodom. Why not? It is be cause of the reasons I described above... Ódinism lacks the vitality it once had, nowadays it's just a faint imitation of what it was, it is almost weak. We know not so much about it, sadly, and what we know may be tainted by Christian ideas.

Is it any use then? Of course. Even though it lacks the vitality and strenght it once had, ages ago, we can and should use what is left of it to forge a religion stronger! Let us use Christianity against the Christians, let us use Ódinism against the neopagans... let's use it on them; a new elite is bound to come, and it is bound to bring with it a new European faith.

The Aryocracy won't live as reenactors of religions past -- the Aryans are Creators. This project was already on it's way, as Moody (http://forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=456) explains:

This was because under the Third Reich, a new kind spirituality was being gathered, at once among the Folk and among the Elite.
A spirituality which revived the best aspects of paganism and combined them with the Germanic elements of Christianity.
One of the great tragedies of the defeat of 1945 was that this holy project was aborted.
Yes!.

And you touch an important point here:

Is there not the danger that a rather 'liberal' form of Odinism etc., becomes a soft substitute for the real work?

Exactly my thoughts -- just be cause of that; Ódinism being too weak, and too litle known of it's original form, there is the danger that a rather 'liberal' form becomes a soft substitute for the real work; just be cause of that it can not be the religion of the coming Reich; just be cause of that we need to Create (or rather extract from our racial subconcious) a stronger and more fitting religion. A holistic religion, that is a part of the political and mythological: a monistic polytheistic totalised political/spiritual/aesthetic philosophy fitting for what is to come: Aryan Imperial Supremacy.




Fore more in related discussions one might want to see for example theese threads:
A (spiritual) Knight Order in the modern world (?) (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=64036), National Socialism, Paganism and Satanism? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=49550), What Caste Should Rule? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=52534), What is Aryan and why we should use the word (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=47015)

Carl
Friday, September 29th, 2006, 12:06 PM
Oh dear!!!

so many views, so many contradictions. Unless a degree of Unity emerges in some way, any new faith will be divided.

When the Folc arrived in England from NW Europe their Kings were in the line Woden. He , however fared to the North - perhaps first as warrior but then , in wisdom, as AllFather to his people. People do, however, believe in other things!
Carl

Víđálfr
Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 11:23 PM
I sadly find myself thinking that revival of the old religions may be "here today, gone tomorrow."
This is what I'm sometimes afraid of...:~(

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 01:14 AM
Exactly my thoughts -- just be cause of that; Ódinism being too weak, and too litle known of it's original form, there is the danger that a rather 'liberal' form becomes a soft substitute for the real work; just be cause of that it can not be the religion of the coming Reich; just be cause of that we need to Create (or rather extract from our racial subconcious) a stronger and more fitting religion. A holistic religion, that is a part of the political and mythological: a monistic polytheistic totalised political/spiritual/aesthetic philosophy fitting for what is to come: Aryan Imperial Supremacy.


Odinism is the mystery of sacrifice (in some sense, the same way "positive" Christianity is). However, from the likes of Ibn Fahdlan and Tacitus we know Odinism wasn't a "late" viking era faith. From Indo-European similarities, it's shown, that it was preserved, only naturally altered, from way back in pre-history. It was the development of our ancestors on the very paths of their evolution in their own direction the same length of time that other IE religions evolved their own paths among their own descendants.

To show faith to the creativity of Germanic origins, it is not against Odinism at all to 'merge with the best of Germanic "Christianized" ideas'; the Gothic churches are fully Germanic. Only Jesus isn't, only Yahweh isn't; the archetype of Heaven and "angels" (Valkyries) are Germanic; while the 10 commandments aren't. Odin/Baldur was still the archetype of Jesus in the minds of all early Christians only they didn't use that name.

Odinism has no more chance of becoming 'liberal' than does Christianity. Well, due to the teachings in the bible, infact, Judo-Christianity is much more akin to being liberal in interpretation. It is only the reaction against the conservative aspects in Christianity which has made such a demographic of liberal "Odinists" gravitate to taking up the mantle of the term for their 'religion'.

Odin, will always be tied intrinsically with being Germanic. 'Wuotanaz' is the spiritual essense created from the origin of what Germanic is. To deny it is to deny the evolution of from whence man became Teutonic.

Certainly however, certain myths are late, all depictions are late; the creation of individuals and not the general spirit of the religion. Everything recorded by Sturlson, even, could be considered 'tainted'.

True Odinism, to me, is the spirit of everything that is not weak about the Germanic spirit. It is the solid "hardcore" nature of everything that cannot be weak. Odin is God. (Everything that the term implies in feeling to our old archetypes of the word; I'd even give the word the same root, though modern academia would disagree- G(w)od-anaz.) There can be nothing stronger or more fitting; just a stronger and more fitting way of relating to it; being true to it on a more self-sacrificing level.

How many of those 'new-age' Odinists would be willing to die a death that would find them in Valhalla? How many see the act as even plausable, and most of them reinterpret such sacrifice as to not be taken literally (which should be easily disproven by looking at historical evidence!)

Sigurd
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Everything that the term implies in feeling to our old archetypes of the word; I'd even give the word the same root, though modern academia would disagree- G(w)od-anaz

That is kind of obvious. It became greek "Theus" I believe, easily derived from Zeus. What we know as Hell (derived from Hel) is what the Greeks know as Hades (derived from their god of the underworld, i.e. Hades).


How many of those 'new-age' Odinists would be willing to die a death that would find them in Valhalla? How many see the act as even plausable, and most of them reinterpret such sacrifice as to not be taken literally (which should be easily disproven by looking at historical evidence!)

Talking about literal interpretation - give the following a thought: Why is everyone so keen on going to Valhalla anyway. When it comes to choosing the slain on a battlefield, Freya gets the first pick, so it would logically be more prestigeous to go to Folkvang than to Valhalla anyway.

And another one considering literal interpretation - do you literally believe that a giant in a chariot pulled by two goats is running through the heavens with a hammer pounding on giant's heads to make thunder? Well...there we go.

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 04:01 PM
And another one considering literal interpretation - do you literally believe that a giant in a chariot pulled by two goats is running through the heavens with a hammer pounding on giant's heads to make thunder? Well...there we go.

Of course, I meant the literal interpretation of regarding & relating to the faith's archetypes; what was really done by living people in the past who were of the faith.

Going to Valhalla, in all regards, might have every implication of the myth in relating to that goal, but for any of the faith to believe in a literal continuation of life there is counter to the very thought of what one would indeed be sacrificing to reach that place. Thus the prestigiousness of the power of faith to compell one to those actions are all the more if they lived life as if they did not indeed believe in such a physical manifestation of a place, only the nonphysical spiritual implication of it.

Compare Varg Vikernes' idea of 'mátt sinn ok megin', the traditional Germanic synergy of faith & 'positive' atheism.

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/paganism05.shtml

Sigurd
Tuesday, January 9th, 2007, 12:06 PM
I will touch upon both subjects you considered, Nagelfar, as I go along, for convenience - since they are both rather lengthy - I will however deal with them separately. This first post will deal with the issue of prayer, the second one with my idea of Valhalla. ;)

It is quite right that we must not fall down in obedience and pray and ask for help: One of the Nine Noble Virtues is Self-Reliance. It does not mean that we can never accept help from others, but that we should be standing on our own feet as much as we can.

I never send prayers to the gods either. THe word "praying" is a synonym to begging and to me conjures up the image of lying down in an inferior pose in a "world to the meek" sort of sense. It means weakness to me.

However one could argue that I do something that arguably classifies as praying at times. For example I silently thank Frey or Freya, and other, lesser gods, of fertility, and more oft than not I hamemrsign it. When I am stuck somewhere I will of course seek guidance - but in a way that I would ask my grandfather or my father for their opinion. I do not ask them to sort it out for me , but rather seek take strength from Thor, Wisdom from Odin, Justice from Tyr and then sort it out myself to the best of my abilities. It is more of a thanking beforehand rather than a cry for aid.

I always thank them though, beforehand or afterwards. Sometimes I also thank them by giving a poem to their honor. Thank and offerings is a way of giving a gift for a gift - and this follows Havamal 41, Havamal of course being a writing we should always take to our heart when we determine how to act.

Call that praying to me if you will, but I most certainlywon't. Praying in the Christian sense of "make me faithful so I will get into heaven and not suffer eternal damnation" - I would never do that, such conduct is primitive and anything but a noble way of life. Find your own way by guidance of the gods, but do not kneel down in despair. :)

Also interesting to the concept: The Norns weave the web of fate, and the threads for it are pre-designed -> yet we can have direct influence upon the exact pattern they are woven in. Again highlights this idea

The article you posted is actually very good. You know that I am not a fan of Vikernes, but this article is probably the best and most agreeable of all Heathen writings he has released thus far. He is quite right in saying that we should find our own way mostly.

Sigurd
Tuesday, January 9th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Now I will deal with the Valhalla issue.

The Valhalla debate is one of the most common ones, and so I have discussed it with various people often, lengthy discurses these often were. With time, I came across some interesting points.

First off, our myths are not to be taken literal: Thor most certainly isn't a giant riding a chariot pulled by goats across the sky pounding his hammer against the firmament.

So can we see "death in battle" metaphorically? I mean, after all, people fight with more than just swords and shields. Does it include fighting for a cause, personal battles, battles against the world in the face of adversity? Or should we instead "go out and die" on military action in Iraq or pick a suicidal fight with the village thug?

What if a renowned warrior dies of old age, but an inexperienced and dishonorable one dies on the battlefield - should not the first one be more likely to get into Valhalla?

Also, our faith is evolving, not static: Our ancestors did not engage in anachronisms, so why should we? So if all evolves, maybe the "death in battle", indeed the battle itself is evolving too?

And where do the rest go? Hel? Yes, it would indeed be suggested, and we can easily enough say that it is not the bad place that it is made out to be in a judaeo-christian misndset - for in truth only Niflhel and Nastrand are; the rest is deemed to be for the commoners, i.e. those dying a "straw death". What about the sea dead though, they died no straw death and no battle death - so where do they go? It is suggested that they remain in Midgard as draugar, but if it was a renowned sea warrior, would he maybe go to Aegir's Hall?
But how can we know exactly where those renowned in life not dying in battle would go? After all, there are plenty of Halls mentioned, so maybe Thor's hall Bilskirnir? It is said that no mortal ever ventured there, but well...or may yet another god taking care of them?

Also consider there - if you are not Odin's man, but have a different patron - would it not be more prestigeous for you to go to your main god's hall rather than become an Einherjar of Odin? Would an honest lawspeaker not be more honored, thus "better off" at Tyr's rather than at Odin's? Just pondering on that thought...

The next question I have is - is Valhalla really that prestigeous? After all, if you happen to fall in battle, Freya in her role as Val-Freya gets the first pick of the slain warriors. So would it not be more prestigeous to go to Folkvang rather than Valhalla, anyway? ( I have mentioned this before, but you still haven't answered me on that count, so I included it once more)

Also - do we stay in these Halls forever, or are only certain halls "eternal"? After all, there is good scope to suggest ancestral reincarnation. Is it only those "ordinary" ones going to Hel who are reincarnated in later generations (or even different branches of the family), or is it all of them? Reincarnation in one way or another is a FACT, but the views obviously differ on it.

Questions over questions - and we probably won't know for sure until we have died. Until that date, I would advise however to better live your life as honorable as you can, and see what reward you are given after death. One should worry about death when it is happening in the immediate future; during lifetime one should spend more time in what happens in this realm of existence, when you are old there will be plenty of time to still worry, believe me!

[[is Odin, and like him I seek ever more knowledge and wisdom and am never satisfied with the status quo of what is accepted, but always seek to delve deeper and ask questions. ;)]]

gryphon
Sunday, February 25th, 2007, 05:30 AM
He is NOT an Odinist or Asatru or whatever you choose to call it. He is a left wing professor of religious studies at the University of Stockholm. He is TOTALLY biased. He LIED to EVERY single person involved with Odinism that he interviewed about who he was and what his intentions were with the book. He also wrote a very unflattering and biased book about the nation of islam, another favorite of the adl. Believe what you want but common sense should tell people he's an adl front and even if he isn't he's still a lying sack of shit.

I have to agree with you. It is also a fact that the oldest odinist organisation in the US. The Odinic Rite, didnt rant him any information at all, they would not cooperate with him so any reference to them is actually rather inaccurate.
Farr heill