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morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, October 20th, 2004, 04:12 PM
This Elmenteita type is not too far form Combe Capelle and totally unlike the previous African exodus, circa 120,000, which produced Amud in Palestine which was a "Black Man", pure and simple.

Dont you think Amud was a neaderthaloid hybrid? Theres a lot of evidence for this.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, October 20th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Homo neanderthalensis:
http://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/neanderthalensis.htm (good pictures of skulls)
http://www.fossilien.de/artikel/repliken/museum/urmensch/7047.htm [Amud skull)

I always thought that Qafseh and Skhul caves show early traits of Homo sapiens sapiens and Amud H. sapiens neandertalensis.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, October 20th, 2004, 08:08 PM
I always thought that Qafseh and Skhul caves show early traits of Homo sapiens sapiens and Amud H. sapiens neandertalensis.

Youre right that Skhul (except Skhul V, which may be a hybrid) and Qafzeh are moderns, despite retaining certain archaic African features (which make them less modern than is generally imagined). Amud 1 on the other hand is far more neanderthaloid and is probably a hybrid, between moderns and neanderthaloids.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 04:29 AM
Dont you think Amud was a neaderthaloid hybrid? Theres a lot of evidence for this.

The "Amud" skull I am thinking of is not one of these. The one I am thinking of was prognathic and procumbant, had no protruding nasal development at all, the skull was long but not heavily built and had little brow ridge development. He was a large male. In profile, he had a dish-shaped face. I think this was an African no matter where he was found.

Incidently, the Elmenteita A as compared to this Amud skull has a stronger nasal development, less prognathism and procumbancy.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 06:52 AM
Upon rechecking the Amud I skull, Atlanto-Med. is correct. I must be getting senile. Amud I looks part Neanderthal to me and was not the fossil I had in mind. Perhaps I was thinking of Qafzeh IX when speaking about Amud I.

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 04:02 AM
Dont you think Amud was a neaderthaloid hybrid? Theres a lot of evidence for this.Interestingly, admitting a tropical, African heritage to Skhul, one can't deny that in contrast to Qafza's facial structure the former has a higher face and longer nose which Loring Brace delegates to human groups who resided during a long period of time as a survival response to northern, temperate but cold climates(warming and moistening of inhaled air).

Skhul underwent also dental reduction, which Qafza simply lacks despite gracilization of the cranial skeleton, seen in the decrease of muscularity(which in modern races might be explained as a non-Europid characteristic).
This group also displays partial postcranial reduction.
Overall, the mixture of plesiomorphic and apparently modern, Europid traits in Skhul places this group between Neanderthals and Aurignicians, whereby the former were taking the road to anatomically modern humans; the reverse situation from what Arthur Keith had in mind, that there was some retrogression into a neanderthaloid stage in this group.

From this perspective, Amud was not a hybrid but an extreme rugged and tall variant of Levantine moderns, maybe an evolutionary dead end because single or minoritive variants usually are re-absorbed in a group and their characteristics become diluted without a consequence for the entire species/subspecies.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 12:23 PM
From this perspective, Amud was not a hybrid but an extreme rugged and tall variant of Levantine moderns, maybe an evolutionary dead end because single or minoritive variants usually are re-absorbed in a group and their characteristics become diluted without a consequence for the entire species/subspecies.

Amud's dental pattern and vault shape are neanderthaloid, not modern.

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 10:56 PM
Amud's dental pattern and vault shape are neanderthaloid, not modern.
With some hesitation I might say that Amud's skull shows some incipient roundedness without completely departing from the loaf-shape outline typical for Hn.
The browridges are lighter, there an faint indication of mental eminence, which pushed him towards modernity without actually crossing the species barrier.


The mix of Neandertal and modern features continues on the cranium.
The cranium is wide and long; it is longer than in any modern human
and longer than in the biggest European Neandertal, from La Ferrassie.
The mastoid process process of the temporal bone, which protrudes like
a knob beneath the ear opening, approaches modern human size and is
larger than the mastoid process in the Neandertals at La Chapelle-aux-Saints
and Gibraltar. In rear view, the cranium is perfectly round, like a bowling
ball--a typical Neandertal trait--but the occipital bone combines a
Neandertal-like torus, or bar, of bone across its width with a sharply
curved overall shape that resembles a modern human cranium.
(Johanson and Edgar 1996:220)


Amud wasn't only the tallest of all known Neanderthalers, but his built belies the stereotypical imagery of stocky, tiny brutes and shows a far more agile and svelte being.

As a side-note, the Krapina Neanderthalers were similar in built, progressive, although tinier in stature to either Kebara or Amud.