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Bismark
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 07:35 AM
In the Middle Ages and later there persisted a common belief that the Vandals were ancestors of Poles or Slavic peoples. That belief originated probably because of two facts: first, confusion of the Venedes with Vandals and secondly, because both Venedes and Vandals in ancient times lived in areas later settled by Poles. In 796 in the Annales Alamanici one can find an excerpt saying Pipinus ... perrexit in regionem Wandalorum, et ipsi Wandali venerunt obvium ("Pippen went to regions of Vandals and the Vandals came to meet him"). In Annales Sangallenses the same raid (however put in 795 is summarised in one short message Wandali conquisiti sunt ("Vandals were destroyed")). This means that early medieval writers gave the name of Vandals to Avars.

Very soon after that in chronicles the name "Vandal" started to mean "Slavs" (eg. in the same Annales Alamanici about a raid of Charlemagne in the country of the Polabian Slavs: perrexit in regionem Wandalorum). In 1056 Annales Augustani mentioned defeat of Germans with Slavic Lucics (?) as exercitus Saxonum a Wandalis trucidatur ("an army of Saxons is destroyed by Vandals"). In the chronicle of Adam of Bremen there is a longer sentence:

Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sum Wandali; decies maior esse fertur nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quaia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in partem adiecreris Sclavaniae

that is: "Slavania (Slavic lands), the biggest from Germanic countries, is inhabited by Winnils, who were formerly called Vandals. It is supposed to be bigger than our Saxony, especially when it would include Bohemians and Polans across the Oder, since they are no different in customs and language".

In 983-993 Gerhard of Augsburg in Miracula Sancti Oudalrici (about saint Udalric) called Mieszko I dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine.

Probably the first man who directly mentioned supposedly Vandalic roots of Poland was the Polish chronicler Wincenty Kadlubek in the 12th century, who wrote that Poles were once called Vandals, because they live next to the river Vandalus (Vistula), and that river received its name from the mythical queen Vanda who committed suicide by drowning in it. A similar story was told by the author of Wielkopolska chronicle from the 14th century, and then Dzierzwa from Krakow in the 14th century, who tried to give Slavic etymology to all known Vandalic names, like deriving Vanda from we;da, that is fishing-rod.

In 12th century also Gerwazy from Tilbury, English writer in Otia imperialia wrote that citizens of Poland are called and are calling themselves Vandals. Similar thoughts gave German historian Albert Krantz (1450-1517) in Wandalia sive historia de Wandalorum vera origine, variis gentibus, crebris a aptria migrationibus, regnis item, etc where who consequently connected history of ancient Vandals and Slavs. The same was repeated by Falvio Blondi from Italy, and then Maciej Miechowita in Tractatus de duabus Sarmatiis... from 1517. Other arguments that Vandals were Polish ancestors were supplied by Marcin Bielski in 15th century. The first Polish historian to deny any connection to Vandals and to criticise that idea was Marcin Kromer, bishop of Warmia, author of De origine et rebus gestis Polonorum from 1555.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_between_Poles_and_Vandals

Huzar
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 07:42 AM
Poland, today a slavic area, in ancient times was part of the germanic area it's possible or brobable a good percentage of polish people being equal phenotyipically and genetically to germans, i think.

Sigel
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM
Poland, today a slavic area, in ancient times was part of the germanic area it's possible or brobable a good percentage of polish people being equal phenotyipically and genetically to germans, i think.
This may be the case. There is a huge Slavic influence in the former Prussia. Many districts and names of towns are Slavic in origin and the Sorbs still live, as they always have, within Germany.
We shouldn't forget that the Goths also settled in present day Poland for some time. I have personally met some very 'Germanic' looking Poles.
I seem to recall that Hitler wished to preserve these kind of Poles and use them in his breeding programme, but I'm sure others here will know more on this topic than I do.

Marius
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 09:07 AM
This may be the case. There is a huge Slavic influence in the former Prussia. Many districts and names of towns are Slavic in origin and the Sorbs still live, as they always have, within Germany.
We shouldn't forget that the Goths also settled in present day Poland for some time. I have personally met some very 'Germanic' looking Poles.
I seem to recall that Hitler wished to preserve these kind of Poles and use them in his breeding programme, but I'm sure others here will know more on this topic than I do.

Goths settled for three generations in the place which is currently called Romania, too.

I think, especially in Eastern and in Central-Eastern Europe, it is very difficult to affirm 100% that the X people is the exact descendant of the Y tribe. Let's remember that most of migrations, during the times of big invasions, passed through the region in their absolute majority.

So, I think it is normal nowadays, to find in the same region a very high diversity of phenotypes and subraces, since many of the tribes passed over the area, bearing almost each time new genetical data.

Sigel
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Goths settled for three generations in the place which is currently called Romania, too.
And what a history! Was it not founded by an 'abandoned' Roman legion, who put down roots?
I would also contend that there is a strange parallel between conservative Slavic languages, which place the article after the noun, and Scandinavian languages which do the same.
All West Germanic and Romance languages, to my knowledge, place the article in front!

Marius
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 09:40 AM
And what a history! Was it not founded by an 'abandoned' Roman legion, who put down roots?
I would also contend that there is a strange parallel between conservative Slavic languages, which place the article after the noun, and Scandinavian languages which do the same.
All West Germanic and Romance languages, to my knowledge, place the article in front!

The Romanian place the article after the noun, too and it is a Romance language, but with other influences. :)

Oskorei
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 12:27 PM
I doubt that the Poles are descendants of the Vandals, since the Folkwanderings usually involved the whole tribe/folk, and the Vandals ended up in Northern Africa. Some Vandal heritage is not impossible though.

The borders between Slavs and Germanics were probably not so strict in those days. The Swedish Kings had the title king of "Svear, Götar (the two Swedish tribes/folks) and Wendes". And, if I am not mistaken, the last of the Heathen Vikings took refuge with some Slav or Baltic pirates. So there was some contacts.

Siegfried
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 12:49 PM
This may be the case. There is a huge Slavic influence in the former Prussia. Many districts and names of towns are Slavic in origin and the Sorbs still live, as they always have, within Germany.
We shouldn't forget that the Goths also settled in present day Poland for some time. I have personally met some very 'Germanic' looking Poles.
I seem to recall that Hitler wished to preserve these kind of Poles and use them in his breeding programme, but I'm sure others here will know more on this topic than I do.

When it comes to the second World War it is often difficult to distinguish Allied agitprop from historical reality, but there are indeed stories that Hitler had Nordid Polish children up for adoption by Germans.

Huzar
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 01:13 PM
When it comes to the second World War it is often difficult to distinguish Allied agitprop from historical reality, but there are indeed stories that Hitler had Nordid Polish children up for adoption by Germans.


True. Himmler wanted to transfer in Germany all poles with nordic traits (like descendant of ancient teutonic knights). The children transferred were about 250'000

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 09:12 AM
I doubt that the Poles are descendants of the Vandals, since the Folkwanderings usually involved the whole tribe/folk, and the Vandals ended up in Northern Africa. Some Vandal heritage is not impossible though.

The borders between Slavs and Germanics were probably not so strict in those days. The Swedish Kings had the title king of "Svear, Götar (the two Swedish tribes/folks) and Wendes". And, if I am not mistaken, the last of the Heathen Vikings took refuge with some Slav or Baltic pirates. So there was some contacts.

In northern Europe its known from classical records as early as Caesar and from archeology that the language groups and ethnic groups were fluid and the greatest distinction was the seperation between the steppe and the forest, not between different language groups.

nordic_canadian_male
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 04:05 PM
If racial history has taught me anything it is that original populations always remain represented in a newly conquered land, with time they even begin to re-emerge and dominate once more, but this of course is of course depends on the cultural conditions, and racial elements involved.

German migrations did include the whole tribe as appose to the slavic method of migration, which always left people behind in their previous land. However there must have been other tribes there closely resembling the vandals, if not some themselves. It is hard to say how much vandal influence poles do have, better yet how much germanic influence they posses, but a fair estimate would be to place them in-between germans proper and slavic russians, a bridge over europes fluid racial zones.

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, March 5th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Among the hypothesis of the origins of the world "silesia" (schlesien in German), there is the name of the "silings", who, with the "hasdings" were the two main tribes dominating the Vandals. Silings and Hasdings went in Spain after 406, where they left the name "(V)Andalusia" . Most Silings were defeated by the Goths and the remaining part were absorbed by the Hasdings before conquering North Africa. However, it is much possible that an important part of the Silings remained in Silesia before the great move towards the South West of Europe. This was the same with the Goths who after their great move in the Roman Empire, left a minority of them in Crimea, where they kept their Germanic language unchanged until the 16th century (Crimean Goths or Tetraxit Goths). Concerning the Silings, the fact that their name remained in the world Silesia could be explained either by the fact that some people continued to present itself as "Silings", or at least, that the souvenir of the former germanic masters of this region remained among their former slavic vassals. A same phenomenon, has been noticed with the name of Danzig (Gdansk in Polish), which is phonetically very close to the name "Gothiskanza", after which this region was called during the previous gothic occupation (first century). Toponomy has shown that most names of rivers can be traced back to pre-indo-european languages. It should be all the more easy to trace back the names of cities or regions to less remote folks such as the ancient germanic tribes. This issue is still a tabou, because some scientists fear that it could be used by pangermanists to claim their easter territories back. But, after all, no-ones denies that Russia was founded by swedes, or that France bears the name of a Germanic tribe. Why should'nt the Poles recognise their germanic heritage, together with their slavic one ?

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, March 5th, 2005, 07:17 PM
But, after all, no-ones denies that Russia was founded by swedes, or that France bears the name of a Germanic tribe. Why should'nt the Poles recognise their germanic heritage, together with their slavic one ?


If you think of the argument that language defines ethnicity, which emerged in northern Europe, its only possible because of the readiness of Germanics, Slavs and others to rapidly intermarry and to adopt a new language following a foreign conquest, creating a stable ethnicity in a short space of time.

Although language is certainly relevant to nationality, the use of words like Germanic or Slavic to define nationalities is inorganic.

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, March 5th, 2005, 07:22 PM
If you think of the argument that language defines ethnicity, which emerged in northern Europe, its only possible because of the readiness of Germanics, Slavs and others to rapidly intermarry and to adopt a new language following a foreign conquest, creating a stable ethnicity in a short space of time.

Although language is certainly relevant to nationality, the use of words like Germanic or Slavic to define nationalities is inorganic.
True ... but this is also a matter of self representation. And we are contributing to it, even in this forum ;)