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catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, February 19th, 2005, 10:35 PM
I will post in this thread several examples of alpinisation : the first example is proposed by Coon : alpinisation within the Brunn Race :

These are :
- an extreme brunn from sweden,
- an intermediate brunn from ireland
- a reduced brunn from ireland

These three forms co-exist within the same population but in different proportions : when the first or the second forms are in the majority, this pouplation is called "brunn", like in western Ireland. When the third form prevails, it is called "(northern) alpin", like in the French Brittany, or in Cornwall. These three types express a variation within a same stock of population. Brunn can re-emerge within a (northern) alpin stock, when some factors favour the selection of the most athletic individuals at the expense of the most pictinics (or pedomorphic) ones. And reversely. Later, I'll show other examples of alpinisation.

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, February 19th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Another example of alpinisation :

- an extreme nordic from Sweden (Coon classify it as Brunn, but admits that his expression is more nordic than typically brunn)
- a classical nordic from sweden (Hence, Halstatt nordics could be a gracilised form of the extreme nordic)
- a reduced nordic from northern Russia (in a second time, after gracilisation has occured, alpinisation achieves the reduction process).

Again, you may find these three forms in a same familly of Swedes, although the classical type would predominate. Such reduced nordics occur very frequently in Northern France. War selection during the Dark ages could have been a reason for the development of reduced nordics. Sexual selection, could have been another one, although from our standards of today, the latter guy does not seem a dangerous competitor to us.

Agrippa
Sunday, February 20th, 2005, 01:56 AM
I would just say that typical leptomorphic Europeans dont tend to paedomorphisation in a Alpinoid direction like the Cromagnoid Europids do.

Therefore its to me highly unlikely that a typical Nordid population, out of itself, would produce in a relatively short time Alpinoids. That could be only the case if a brachymorphic Cromagnoid element is present. This might then expand and get infantilised in a Alpinoid/Baltid direction.

The gracialisation of Nordids would produce rather (Gracile) Mediterranoid types imo, because Nordids themselves are a partly gracialised leptomorphic specialization.

From the real robust (athletic-strong mesosomic) early Europeans there are mainly two ways of gracialisation and specialisation, which go in the opposite direction if its about the overall form or morphological tendency.

So a pure Nordid (Skandonordid) population would need a much longer time for a Alpinisation trend on their own, but it can go fast if even a small minority element of already brachymorphic individuals exist which would be favoured under certain circumstances in the process of selection.

nordic_canadian_male
Sunday, February 20th, 2005, 05:52 AM
I do believe Nordics(skando-nordids) are gracialized, or better yet refined cro-magnons. Cro magnid populations were never completely homogenous, there were always more gracialized types. I agree with agrippa that in a pure nordid population, they wouldn't produce alpinids but smaller more delicate nordids. Of course over a certain amount of time they would began to develope an alpinid condition, and this would depend on the amount of non-nordid blood within the group even if minute, which must have time to re-emerge. I believe certain presures and inter-population mechanism can inspire two different responses in a population. One to become stronger which comes with a more mobile, warlike existence, another to become more alpinized which comes with more of a sedentary, stabilizec culture.

I understand what you're trying to say though. I think Leonardo Dicaprio is the best famous example of an alpinized nordid. To look like he looks, he must have alpinid/more bracycephalic admixture but a small amount only. He's rather very nordid to me, except an alpinized form.

cruhmann
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 04:56 AM
I see no proof of reduced anything, except where mixture occurs. The three so-called Brunn individuals belong to three different types, and have very little in common with one another.

Fred
Thursday, March 3rd, 2005, 11:24 AM
I think Leonardo Dicaprio is the best famous example of an alpinized nordid.
I always thought DiCaprio looks like what the mix between a Dutch and an Italian would give. Well I just looked for his heritage right now and his father is Italian, and his mother German.

Glenlivet
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 09:02 PM
DiCaprio's body is also Alpinid, not Nordid-like.

The face is also very infantilised.

Would anyone really see him as Nordid if he was darker (the hair colour is dyed in most films, so it is almost impossible to tell the natural from the unnatural, but one can nonetheless consider him as being quite fair)?

http://www.bestcelebritysites.com/images/leonardodicaprio/leoposter.jpg

catchmeifyoukhan
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 11:19 PM
I see no proof of reduced anything, except where mixture occurs. The three so-called Brunn individuals belong to three different types, and have very little in common with one another.
Well, I have seen a lot of Irish, brittonic and cornwallic families where such combinaison of types could be found. Most well known representatives could be the combinaison of John Wayne (athletic), Robin Williams (medium) and Mickey Rooney (infantilised). True that in Norway, only the athletic type occurs. but in Ireland we have this combinsaison of types so intimately tied that it is almost impossible to invoke a recent mixture. If we suppose that it is the result of a mixture, then it can only be the result of a very remote mixture, that would have been stabilised on a three fold phenotype, because the genetic data on Irish men are almost as northern european as the genetic data on Norvegians.

catchmeifyoukhan
Friday, March 4th, 2005, 11:34 PM
[QUOTE=Agrippa]I would just say that typical leptomorphic Europeans dont tend to paedomorphisation in a Alpinoid direction like the Cromagnoid Europids do.]

I agree.

My assumption is that :
- robust borreby like populations, when unsubmitted to a strong selective process, tend to be reduced into the so-called alpin type (which encompasses the northern alpins, typical in French Brittony and the east-baltics, typical in Lithuania). Mixed with mediterraneans in the west, they produce the southern alpin type, typical to the rest of France.

- Whereas, Brunn like populations tend to be reduced into the so-called "nordic type", without any mixture involved.

The basic reason of this assumption is that genetic studies do not show any clear cut difference between robust UP populations, northern alpin and nordic population.