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Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 12:49 PM
New Revelations about the Red Army's Campaign of Rape in Its Occupied Zones

By Brian Carnell

Tuesday, January 29, 2002

Historians have long known that as the Red Army advanced on Nazi forces at the end of World War II, soldiers in the Soviet army engaged in the wholesale rape of women in their path. A new book by historian Anthony Beevor, however, argues that rape was committed at a mind boggling pace, and that the Red Army did not reserve rape as a punishment for the much-hated Germans, but also raped women in concentration camps that the Red Army liberated. During the war, Stalin and others in high ranking positions actively condoned and occasionally justified the rape of women in territories conquered by the advancing Red Army.

The Daily Telegraph notes that when Yugoslavian Communist leader Milovan Djilas complained to Stalin about the rapacious nature of Soviet soldiers, Stalin complained, "Can't he understand it if a solider who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?" Beevor's research suggests that as the Red Army entered East Prussia in 1944, soldiers raped practically every female over 10 years of age in the towns they passed through. Beevor also claims that the Red Army raped even Polish and Russian women that were liberated from Nazi concentration camps, though the total number of women there was much smaller than the German victims of rape.

The total number of women who were raped by the Red Army necessarily remains unknown, but Beevor points out that there were about two million illegal abortions performed in Eastern Germany from 1945-1948 -- an astounding number considering that there were only about 15 million women in East Germany. In 1946-47, the Red Army finally cracked down on rape, not because of any concern about women in the territories it occupied, but over concern about the rapid spread of sexually transmitted diseases among its soldiers. Source: Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps.


Source: http://www.leftwatch.com/archives/years/2002/000018.html (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.left watch.com%2Farchives%2Fyears%2F2002%2F00 0018.html)

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Monday, 29 April, 2002, 09:20 GMT 10:20 UK

Red Army rapists exposed



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1935000/images/_1939174_ww2_berlin_300.jpg


http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif</IMG>http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif</IMG>By Chris Summers
BBC News Online http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/grey_pixel.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif

Red Army soldiers raped two million German women, and thousands of Soviet women in occupied Eastern Europe, says a book published on Monday.

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It is a disgrace to have anything to do with this clear case of slander
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Russian ambassador Grigory Karasin
The author of Berlin: The Downfall 1945, the acclaimed military historian Antony Beevor, also suggests that after brutalisation in extreme war situations almost all men are tempted to become rapists.

But the book has been condemned as an "act of blasphemy" by the Russian ambassador to the UK and its conclusions have also been rejected by a prominent Russian military historian.

Mr Beevor, whose previous book Stalingrad became a best-seller, says in Berlin alone it was estimated up to 130,000 women were raped, of whom up to 10,000 committed suicide.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1935000/images/_1939174_tomb150.jpg The Red Army's sacrifices in World War II are still revered in Russia


Altogether two million German women are believed to have been raped and almost half of those suffered gang rape.

One woman was raped by 23 soldiers.

Mr Beevor said he was shocked by what he found during his research of German and Soviet archives.

He said the widespread rape suggested "there is a dark area of male sexuality which can emerge all too easily, especially in war, when there are no social and disciplinary restraints."

He said the Soviet hierarchy turned a blind eye, and even condoned the rape as a form of revenge for what the German Army - the Wehrmacht - had done during Operation Barbarossa.

One district commander told a group of German women who were seeking his protection: "That? Well, it certainly hasn't done you any harm. Our men are all healthy."

'Bonding process'

Mr Beevor said: "As the Red Army example shows, the practice of collective rape can even become a form of bonding process."

The book has naturally aroused controversy with the Russian Ambassador to Britain, Grigory Karasin, describing it as "lies and insinuations".

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There is a dark area of male sexuality which can emerge all too easily, especially in war, when there are no social and disciplinary restraints.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/endquote.gif
Antony Beevor, historian
He wrote to the Daily Telegraph: "It is a disgrace to have anything to do with this clear case of slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism."

But Mr Beevor said the book's claims, while uncomfortable, were backed up by documents which he had found in the Russian state archives.

"The rape of German women was previously known from German archives but I believe this is the first time the fact that Soviet citizens were raped has been published in the West," he told BBC News Online.

He said many people in Russia were still struggling to come to terms with what the Red Army did during the war.

Mr Beevor said: "I was shaken to the core when I discovered that soldiers raped female prisoners of war.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1935000/images/_1939174_beevor150.jpg Antony Beevor has stirred up a hornets' nest


"That completely undermined the notion that they were only using rape as a form of revenge against the Germans.

He said women became "carnal booty" during the war.

The Wehrmacht had abducted many Russian and Ukrainian girls and set them up in "military brothels".

The Red Army, for its part, had engaged in an "alcohol-induced frenzy of sadism and humiliation".

'Out of control'

He told BBC News Online: "One has this image of the Soviet state and the Red Army as being extremely disciplined but in the first four months of 1945 their soldiers were completely out of control."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1935000/images/_1939174_reichstag150.jpg The devastated Reichstag in Berlin after the battle


Professor Oleg Rzheshevsky, head of war history at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, told BBC News Online these were grave accusations which were not supported by documentary evidence.

Professor Rzheshevsky, who admitted he had only read excerpts and had not seen the book's source notes, said: "Information on the number of raped and killed women is based on victims' and witnesses' accounts, some excerpts from interviews and other such sources."

He said Mr Beevor's use of phrases such as "Berliners remember" and "the experiences of the raped German women" were more suitable for pulp fiction, than scientific research.

Professor Rzheshevsky said considering what the German Army had done in the Soviet Union the Germans could have expected an "avalanche of revenge".

'Humane soldiers'

But he said that did not happen and added: "The majority of soldiers and officers of the Soviet Army and the allied armies treated the local population humanely."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1935000/images/_1939174_stalingrad150.jpg Stalingrad was the turning point on the Eastern Front


The professor said 4,148 Red Army officers and many privates were "punished" for committing atrocities.

Professor Evan Mawdsley, a historian from Glasgow University, said it was not the first time women had become "carnal booty" in time of war.

Professor Richard Overy, a historian from King's College London, said the Russians had never faced up to the atrocities committed by the Red Army. He said: "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1939174.stm

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 12:52 PM
'They raped every German female from eight to 80'

Antony Beevor, author of the acclaimed new book about the fall of Berlin, on a massive war crime committed by the victorious Red Army.

Wednesday May 1, 2002
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

"Red Army soldiers don't believe in 'individual liaisons' with German women," wrote the playwright Zakhar Agranenko in his diary when serving as an officer of marine infantry in East Prussia. "Nine, ten, twelve men at a time - they rape them on a collective basis."



The Soviet armies advancing into East Prussia in January 1945, in huge, long columns, were an extraordinary mixture of modern and medieval: tank troops in padded black helmets, Cossack cavalrymen on shaggy mounts with loot strapped to the saddle, lend-lease Studebakers and Dodges towing light field guns, and then a second echelon in horse-drawn carts. The variety of character among the soldiers was almost as great as that of their military equipment. There were freebooters who drank and raped quite shamelessly, and there were idealistic, austere communists and members of the intelligentsia appalled by such behaviour.

Beria and Stalin, back in Moscow, knew perfectly well what was going on from a number of detailed reports. One stated that "many Germans declare that all German women in East Prussia who stayed behind were raped by Red Army soldiers". Numerous examples of gang rape were given - "girls under 18 and old women included".

Marshal Rokossovsky issued order No 006 in an attempt to direct "the feelings of hatred at fighting the enemy on the battlefield." It appears to have had little effect. There were also a few arbitrary attempts to exert authority. The commander of one rifle division is said to have "personally shot a lieutenant who was lining up a group of his men before a German woman spreadeagled on the ground". But either officers were involved themselves, or the lack of discipline made it too dangerous to restore order over drunken soldiers armed with submachine guns.

Calls to avenge the Motherland, violated by the Wehrmacht's invasion, had given the idea that almost any cruelty would be allowed. Even many young women soldiers and medical staff in the Red Army did not appear to disapprove. "Our soldiers' behaviour towards Germans, particularly German women, is absolutely correct!" said a 21-year-old from Agranenko's reconnaissance detachment. A number seemed to find it amusing. Several German women recorded how Soviet servicewomen watched and laughed when they were raped. But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists." Drink of every variety, including dangerous chemicals seized from laboratories and workshops, was a major factor in the violence. It seems as if Soviet soldiers needed alcoholic courage to attack a woman. But then, all too often, they drank too much and, unable to complete the act, used the bottle instead with appalling effect. A number of victims were mutilated obscenely.



The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.

The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."

One can only scratch at the surface of the psychological contradictions. When gang-raped women in Königsberg begged their attackers afterwards to put them out of their misery, the Red Army men appear to have felt insulted. "Russian soldiers do not shoot women," they replied. "Only German soldiers do that." The Red Army had managed to convince itself that because it had assumed the moral mission to liberate Europe from fascism it could behave entirely as it liked, both personally and politically.

Domination and humiliation permeated most soldiers' treatment of women in East Prussia. The victims not only bore the brunt of revenge for Wehrmacht crimes, they also represented an atavistic target as old as war itself. Rape is the act of a conqueror, the feminist historian Susan Brownmiller observed, aimed at the "bodies of the defeated enemy's women" to emphasise his victory. Yet after the initial fury of January 1945 dissipated, the sadism became less marked. By the time the Red Army reached Berlin three months later, its soldiers tended to regard German women more as a casual right of conquest. The sense of domination certainly continued, but this was perhaps partly an indirect product of the humiliations which they themselves had suffered at the hands of their commanders and the Soviet authorities as a whole.

A number of other forces or influences were at work. Sexual freedom had been a subject for lively debate within Communist party circles during the 1920s, but during the following decade, Stalin ensured that Soviet society depicted itself as virtually asexual. This had nothing to do with genuine puritanism: it was because love and sex did not fit in with dogma designed to "deindividualise" the individual. Human urges and emotions had to be suppressed. Freud's work was banned, divorce and adultery were matters for strong party disapproval. Criminal sanctions against homosexuality were reintroduced. The new doctrine extended even to the complete suppression of sex education. In graphic art, the clothed outline of a woman's breasts was regarded as dangerously erotic. They had to be disguised under boiler suits. The regime clearly wanted any form of desire to be converted into love for the party and above all for Comrade Stalin.

Most ill-educated Red Army soldiers suffered from sexual ignorance and utterly unenlightened attitudes towards women. So the Soviet state's attempts to suppress the libido of its people created what one Russian writer described as a sort of "barracks eroticism" which was far more primitive and violent than "the most sordid foreign pornography". All this was combined with the dehumanising influence of modern propaganda and the atavistic, warring impulses of men marked by fear and suffering.

The novelist Vasily Grossman, a war correspondent attached to the invading Red Army, soon discovered that rape victims were not just Germans. Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour. "Liberated Soviet girls quite often complain that our soldiers rape them," he noted. "One girl said to me in tears: 'He was an old man, older than my father'."

The rape of Soviet women and girls seriously undermines Russian attempts to justify Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge for German brutality in the Soviet Union. On March 29 1945 the central committee of the Komsomol (the youth organisation of the Soviet Union) informed Stalin's associate Malenkov of a report from the 1st Ukrainian Front. "On the night of 24 February," General Tsygankov recorded in the first of many examples, "a group of 35 provisional lieutenants on a course and their battalion commander entered the women's dormitory in the village of Grutenberg and raped them."

In Berlin, many women were simply not prepared for the shock of Russian revenge, however much horror propaganda they had heard from Goebbels. Many reassured themselves that, although the danger must be great out in the countryside, mass rapes could hardly take place in the city in front of everybody.

In Dahlem, Soviet officers visited Sister Kunigunde, the mother superior of Haus Dahlem, a maternity clinic and orphanage. The officers and their men behaved impeccably. In fact, the officers even warned Sister Kunigunde about the second-line troops following on behind. Their prediction proved entirely accurate. Nuns, young girls, old women, pregnant women and mothers who had just given birth were all raped without pity.

Yet within a couple of days, a pattern emerged of soldiers flashing torches in the faces of women huddled in the bunkers to choose their victims. This process of selection, as opposed to the indiscriminate violence shown earlier, indicates a definite change. By this stage Soviet soldiers started to treat German women more as sexual spoils of war than as substitutes for the Wehrmacht on which to vent their rage.

Rape has often been defined by writers on the subject as an act of violence which has little to do with sex. But that is a definition from the victim's perspective. To understand the crime, one needs to see things from the perpetrator's point of view, especially in the later stages when unaggravated rape had succeeded the extreme onslaught of January and February.

Many women found themselves forced to "concede" to one soldier in the hope that he would protect them from others. Magda Wieland, a 24-year-old actress, was dragged from a cupboard in her apartment just off the Kurfürstendamm. A very young soldier from central Asia hauled her out. He was so excited at the prospect of a beautiful young blonde that he ejaculated prematurely. By sign language, she offered herself to him as a girlfriend if he would protect her from other Russian soldiers, but he went off to boast to his comrades and another soldier raped her. Ellen Goetz, a Jewish friend of Magda's, was also raped. When other Germans tried to explain to the Russians that she was Jewish and had been persecuted, they received the retort: "Frau ist Frau."

Women soon learned to disappear during the "hunting hours" of the evening. Young daughters were hidden in storage lofts for days on end. Mothers emerged into the street to fetch water only in the early morning when Soviet soldiers were sleeping off the alcohol from the night before. Sometimes the greatest danger came from one mother giving away the hiding place of other girls in a desperate bid to save her own daughter. Older Berliners still remember the screams every night. It was impossible not to hear them because all the windows had been blown in.

Estimates of rape victims from the city's two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.

If anyone attempted to defend a woman against a Soviet attacker it was either a father trying to defend a daughter or a young son trying to protect his mother. "The 13-year old Dieter Sahl," neighbours wrote in a letter shortly after the event, "threw himself with flailing fists at a Russian who was raping his mother in front of him. He did not succeed in anything except getting himself shot."

After the second stage of women offering themselves to one soldier to save themselves from others, came the post-battle need to survive starvation. Susan Brownmiller noted "the murky line that divides wartime rape from wartime prostitution". Soon after the surrender in Berlin, Ursula von Kardorff found all sorts of women prostituting themselves for food or the alternative currency of cigarettes. Helke Sander, a German film-maker who researched the subject in great detail, wrote of "the grey area of direct force, blackmail, calculation and real affection".

The fourth stage was a strange form of cohabitation in which Red Army officers settled in with German "occupation wives". The Soviet authorities were appalled and enraged when a number of Red Army officers, intent on staying with their German lovers, deserted when it was time to return to the Motherland.

Even if the feminist definition of rape purely as an act of violence proves to be simplistic, there is no justification for male complacency. If anything, the events of 1945 reveal how thin the veneer of civilisation can be when there is little fear of retribution. It also suggests a much darker side to male sexuality than we might care to admit. © Antony Beevor.
www.antonybeevor.com (http://www.antonybeevor.com/)

· Berlin: The Downfall 1945 is published by Viking Penguin


http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0%2C3604%2C707835%2C00.html

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 12:55 PM
History is Full of Surprises for Those Who Ignore It

by Michael Peirce (mpeirce@mindspring.com)

It was with a sense of wonder that I read English writer Daniel Johnson’s piece "Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/24/wbeev24.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/24/ixworld.html)."

What really knocked me out of my chair was this statement, "The Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany was conducted on a much greater scale than previously suspected." I can only ask, "than previously suspected by whom"? The answer must be that public school graduates are as ill informed in the UK as they are here in never never land (as in Never Read, Never Think). That, coupled with the fact the in both countries the State-sponsored media conform to a leftist world view that eschews truth as anathema, has been enough to teach several generations of post modernist "deep thinkers" that all evil that exists in this world is a result somehow of either Christians with their annoying morality or political right wingers, real and alleged. Is not "Nazi" the worst insult that light weights like Madeleine Albright can pull out of their linguistic bag of tricks? Heard any commentator mention the crimes of the left lately?

Unbelievable as it seems, there are in this world many who remain convinced that the Soviet communists were really no worse than say, the Republicans. It should be obvious that there is no comparison between the two – the communists for all their sins were at least effective. No one can accuse the Republicans of that. How long has stopping the abortion holocaust been part of their alleged "platform"?

The Communist Party on the other hand dealt with the perceived problems of Russia with methods right out of Genghis Khan’s handbook. That millions died is not debatable – the numbers tossed around are between thirty and sixty million. That’s not counting the millions that died enjoying the dubious distinction of being "liberated" by the Red Army. Complaining about the Soviet Army’s predilection for rape seems almost silly in a way – like complaining about the Allied planes causing noise pollution flying over Hamburg or Dresden. Not knowing about the Soviet Army’s bad habits is on the other hand, downright dangerous.

That our media of today is staffed by writers and announcers who are essentially clueless is mortifying – one almost longs for the government controlled media of the many conspiracy theories – at least then there would be an excuse other than sheer ignorance.

Johnson’s admission of ignorance comes in his review of a book on the Battle of Stalingrad by one Anthony Beevor. Beevor apparently is either as ill-educated as Johnson or simply a shill for the radical feminists. Consider this quote, "I had to come to the conclusion that if there is a lack of army discipline, most men with a weapon, dehumanized by living through two or three years of war, do become potential rapists…" Is that so? Most men?

One might reasonably ask why other armies don’t turn into mobs of licentious brutes, which is not to say that some don’t but which is to say that most don’t. What is scary here, and particularly for writers of the politically correct genre, is the fact that armies take on the characteristics of the nations they are raised to defend. The Russian Army was known as a pack of rapists since long before the Napoleonic wars. The Prussians on the other hand are known for rather an indifferent almost casual brutality. The French Army has always been known for pillaging and plundering, the Polish for suicidal courage, and the British Army (perish the thought!) has come down through history with one of the worst of all reputations for drunkenness and rapine. "The scum of the earth, enlisted for drink" is how the Duke of Wellington put it.

And of course let’s not forget the Americans. Our boys, with some exceptions, like Sherman’s brigands, have been well known for their essential decency. Unless of course, you happen to be on the wrong map square when some politician starts worrying about his legacy and sends out the bombers and cruise missiles. Still, if you must be invaded, US troops are the ones you want. Nobody has any sayings about them like there are in Europe such as "May God deliver us from the Cossacks!" Those guys aren’t handing out chewing gum folks…

It might behoove us to consider history for a moment. Let’s focus on the Russian Army and strip away all the banal nonsense about "men as rapists" and consider Russian men as rapists because generalities are for the intellectually vapid – let’s look at specifics and see how facts intrude upon silly theories of the mythical "everyman".

In 1805 England seized upon the execution by Napoleon of the duc d’Enghien as a Bourbon terrorist to launch yet another war against the French. Chary as always of risking their own blood, the British deemed it best to wage war with money and let others pay the butcher’s bill. They enticed the Austrians and Russians into forming what came to be known as the Third Coalition. Once again, the armies would march to stamp out the hated Corsican usurper.

The usurper was quicker. His Grande Armee marched from the camps in Boulougne facing England all the way to Austria almost before the Austrians realized they were at war. "He makes war in a new way –with our feet not our blood." Napoleon’s army of 1805 was arguably the best, or one of the best in the history of war. He and his Marshals soon trounced the "unfortunate General Mack" at Ulm and chased the Austrians right out of their capital city of Vienna!

The much overrated General Katusov force marched his Russian Army to a juncture with that of the remaining Austrians. This force consisted of thousands of serfs impressed into uniform and commanded by the spoiled nobility of Czarist Russia. The "Little Father" of the Russians, Czar Alexander, and his ally the Austrian Emperor Francis had rather a chilly meeting. Francis was glad of the reinforcement but quietly horrified and greatly angered by the stories coming in from the countryside. It seems his allies, the Russians, had been looting, raping and plundering their way across his kingdom with a barbarity that shocked even the Austrian generals who had themselves seen some horrors in the endless wars against the Turk on the military frontier. What was worse, the Austrian citizenry were so terrified by the Russians that they were welcoming the French invaders as liberators!

Alexander was unimpressed by the news that his serfs in arms had been committing depredations. After all, they comported themselves in exactly the same way back in the Rodina, Holy Mother Russia herself. It was a long Russian tradition and harkened back to the Tatars and Mongols who had themselves subjected Russia to a string of brutal invasions. To this day the discerning eye can sense the cruelty of the east in the Russian apparatus of war – look carefully at one of their tanks and the spirit of the Mongol Horde can be discerned in the design.

Borders matter you see, and must be defended to the death. Countries who fail to do that will end up invaded and brutalized. Are you listening Dubya?!

For even after repelling or assimilating the last of the invaders, Russia remained always a land under the shadow of the brutal horseman who had rampaged across the steppes. The plight of the Russian peasant was always worse than that of their cousins in western Europe and remained so under the Czars.

A Russian serf could be sold along with an estate. Their situation was essentially slavery with no hope of manumission. Russian soldiers were "requisitioned" from the nobility who not surprisingly, often sent the dregs off to war, keeping the best to work the estates. Men who should perhaps, have graced a gallows or a drunk tank, found themselves marching through rich lands where they encountered women unlike any they had ever seen back home; places where even the peasants seemed to them to live like the nobility in rich homes boasting delicacies unheard of in the east. Ivan helped himself to whatever he wanted, and he wanted whatever he saw.

Napoleon saw off the Russians and Austrians at the Battle of Austerlitz, a classic example of a modern army destroying a peasant levy commanded by men whose only claim to command was blood. Blood was indeed the price of such folly and the Russians who survived the massacre on the ice marched sullenly back to their eastern lair, to the vast relief of all who’d had the misfortune to be in their line of march.

Fast forward to 1945. Meet the Red Army of kindly old US ally "Uncle Joe," beloved of Roosevelt, the Western intellectuals and the spiritual fathers of those liberals who today can be found in the teacher’s unions and the Democratic Party. The lot of the Russian peasant who served in the ranks had not improved appreciably since the days of the Czars. Conditions were if anything worse. The relentless German invaders had turned much of Russia into a zone of desolation. Behind the lines, in both directions, brutal secret political police tortured and murdered at will.

A recent movie called "Enemy at the Gates" gave us a fairly accurate and chilling glimpse of the beastly conditions of war on the Eastern front. A war so horrific, that Germany was in fact defeated beyond any hope of recovery before the first Western Allied soldiers set foot on the shores of Europe. Six million German soldiers had become casualties fighting in this most desperate of all wars and now the Red Army was poised to strike at Berlin. Their tanks sported catchy slogans such as "Forward to the lair of the fascist beast." Thousands of tanks and Stalin Organs (multiple rocket launcher trucks) were waiting to blast the husk of the Wehrmacht to pieces and end it.

The soldiers crouched behind the turrets of the huge T-34 tanks clutching their submachine guns and trenching tools had cold eyes and lived for revenge. For many of them, there was no home to go to; their homes had been destroyed by the Germans or simply obliterated during the huge battles of the early years of the war. They lived for the moment and knew that life was short at the front. Even the commissars had learned to walk softly around the steely eyed men of the Guards Divisions.

Propagandists like Ilya Ehrenberg stirred up their blood lust with chilling exhortations to revenge.

Attacks were fronted by penal troops – men grabbed by the NKVD or police for crimes as trivial as laughing or talking during political education and some for crimes as dreadful as murder. Many of them had simply had the misfortune to be captured by the Germans early in the war and had been arrested as "class traitors" upon being "freed" from the German POW camps. Together with the Mongolian troops whom Marshal Zhukov considered highly expendable, these men would fight their way through the mine fields under the fire of the crazed German defenders whose wives and families were often trekking westward just behind the thin screen of desperate fighters, in long columns of refugees. These columns were routinely strafed by the Red Air Force and on occasion, simply rolled over by the long lines of Stalin tanks. It got really ugly when the Russian foot soldiers caught up with these refugee columns.

Picture if you will, how such men will treat the civilians of the countries upon whom their dark shadow falls. Then remember their rich heritage of rapine and plunder and ponder this: even these men considered the rear area troops to be the truly dangerous fellows and often warned their own victims to beware the second wave!

Marshal Zhukov actually told Eisenhower that yes, his men did indeed rape grandmothers, in his words, "to their surprise and delight," and that this was an old Russian practice and was considered good luck. Really? I’m unaware of any other nation where this charming bit of mythology holds sway! I wonder if those who maintain that all cultures are morally equal would care to incorporate this practice into our less exotic western mores?

Ivan is a paradox – kind to children and possessed of almost a child like docility, he can turn into a monster with no warning. He treated the "liberated" countries of Eastern Europe just as he treated the Germans with whom he had at least a real grievance. He was brave beyond belief and fought in a war that offered him nothing more than a chance for survival under a brutal regime and an occasional issue of cheap army vodka. See the writings of General von Mellenthin and Colonel von Luck, both German panzer commanders who fought against the Red Army, for a surprisingly sympathetic view of these men.

In the end though, it is difficult to maintain a sympathetic view of them. It is interesting however, to note how the national characteristics shine through, even when cloaked with a dark blanket of ideology. The Prussians were their usual brutal selves in World War Two, the Russians raped everyone in sight. The British got everybody into the war that they could including the USA and supplied arms to anyone who would fight. Napoleon would have been surprised only by the scope of the conflict but not by the conduct of the warring nations.

What conclusions can we draw from all this? Let’s try a few and see what we find.



Nations exist because groups of people with similar characteristics tend to stay together, and it is dangerous to draw conclusions about all men based on the actions of some men! After years of domination by the anti-nationalist communists, the Russians remain after all, just Russians.
History is of scant interest to those who educate and to those who shape the opinions of the masses. Everything is new to them, every day.
Communism is a brutal and murderous doctrine that has been largely ignored and even elevated since the end of the Cold War to the status of a mere political party by those in the media and academe. We should be very worried about that because those who cover up mass murder while pontificating routinely about "tolerance" and "hurtful conduct" obviously have an agenda that bodes ill for you and me.
It is a real bad thing to be invaded by Russia, regardless of who is in charge!


The one question that keeps coming back to me about this British writer is in reference to yet another of those pesky historical incidents that are considered best forgotten by post modern man. Will he be just as surprised when he hears about this? Perhaps he will be even more surprised, coming as he does from a country where all is pristine socialist perfection and men live to glorify a happy, classless diversity.

It is about a city that was literally torn to pieces in a three day orgy of rape and violence during the Napoleonic Wars. There wasn’t a Russian for hundreds of miles in any direction yet the atrocities were indeed committed by another supposedly friendly power against an ally. The city was called Badejoz and the victims were Spanish. The violence finally burned itself out only after the Duke of Wellington had a gallows erected in the center of town as a warning to his troops to desist.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/photos/peirces.jpgYes, it was done by British troops and they utterly trashed that Spanish town while terrified French and Hessian prisoners looked on in horror and British officers watched helplessly. Perhaps Misters Johnson and Beevor owe the Russians an apology?

January 28, 2002





http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce52.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/peirce/peirce52.html)

Deling
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Don't forget that it wasn't only German women who was raped; Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, Austrians too. 500 000 women were said to be raped in Vienna alone.

It's a pity, but it's fortunately history. The brutal rapes, tortures and molesting of Central European women is a tragedy which I believe have to be forgotten; for the sake of brotherhood.
Atleast they were raped by Europeans, if that's a consolidation. French and American negro troops raped thousands of European women in Strasbourg and western Germany too.

...and the Red Army was not just an 'Army of Evil', there were lots of women in it, and many men who were soldiers; not rapers. The army constituted of about 5 million men and women, and most of these apparently wasn't rapists.

I hope that in our age the Mark of Kain will vanish forever: no more blood spilled between brothers!

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 01:14 PM
The victims shouldn't be forgotten; the pain and commemoration of all victims should be shared by both factions and lessons learned to prevent that strife and shame befall the generations to come.

Deling
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 01:32 PM
"The victims shouldn't be forgotten; the pain and commemoration of all victims should be shared by both factions and lessons learned to prevent that strife and shame befall the generations to come."

Perhaps, but often it doesn't turn out that way.
When the Latvians build a commemoration monument for SS volunteers, the Russians are outraged (and European PK's)...

when Russians want to raise a monument to Stalin in Volgograd, East Europeans are outraged...

When the Red Army is called the 'liberator of Auschwitz' even a Nationalist party in Sweden (which I respect) writes about 'The Army of Evil' in protest...

Turks has for long forgotten the battle of Kosovo 1389, but Serbs sure didn't being beaten by Muslims...

Armenians make the 1915 ethnic cleansings by Turks into a cult, like Jews and holocaust; and in neither of the cases there are brotherly feelings between victim and perpetrator...

Chechens hasn't forgotten what Stalin did to them at the end of WWII, and it sure affects the Russian empire today...

All rememberance cults lead to outrage, to hate against those who've humiliated them. I can't say this is wrong, because I'm no moralist, but I claim it isn't good for Europeans (or the so-called 'European integration').

And when I look at this forum, Skadi, there isn't hard to find serious national antagonisms: and this between 'enlightened' (or what to call it) Racialists!

What's needed is history written about the reconciliance between European people, not just the brutal wars and humiliation, but the effects and interaction between us; which historically crosses sub-racial, linguistic and cultural borders.
But this history is never written about...

Siegmund
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 08:27 PM
It's a pity, but it's fortunately history. The brutal rapes, tortures and molesting of Central European women is a tragedy which I believe have to be forgotten; for the sake of brotherhood.
It's not "fortunately history" if the girl who was raped was family. Family is REAL. "Brotherhood" is an abstraction. Unconscionable acts that happen to family, kin and tribe can never and should never be forgotten.



Atleast they were raped by Europeans, if that's a consolidation.
Utter nonsense. Clearly, you have no empathy or respect for the pain and horror of actual human beings.



The victims shouldn't be forgotten; the pain and commemoration of all victims should be shared by both factions and lessons learned to prevent that strife and shame befall the generations to come.
As always, the humanitarian voice of reason. Bravo, Frans.

Deling
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 10:35 PM
"It's not "fortunately history" if the girl who was raped was family. Family is REAL. "Brotherhood" is an abstraction. Unconscionable acts that happen to family, kin and tribe can never and should never be forgotten."

Well, first then: If brotherhood is an abstraction, why are you a "NS Idealist" fighting for the 'White Race'? The 'White Race' must be the greatest abstractions of all.

Second: I don't care about Moralism, only realities. It's bad for the brotherhood of all Europeans to bring up all these historical agonies. I mean: How far are we gonna go?? Swedish mercenaries raped thousands and thousands of girls and women in the German States during the Thirty Years' War, and 1/3 of the whole population was either killed or forced to refuge (not only because of Swedes, but Sweden sure prolonged the war). Are Germans today to hate Swedes because of that, or is it only WWII atrocities that are never to be forgotten? That sounds like the holocaust cultists.

Third: I don't know how real family really is, but brotherhood is just as real. If not people wouldn't voluntarily sacrifice their lives to defend their nation. A nation is a brotherhood. THE WARS are real, and the killing. You condone these wars between brothers by stating what you've stated. No Europeans want more intra-European wars, but what do you care...? Over there in America you're just one big, English-speaking happy white family...

Lastly then: With your view on retribution and vengeance, you would be welcome to Albania and Kurdistan. They like blood-vengeance over there.

"Utter nonsense. Clearly, you have no empathy or respect for the pain and horror of actual human beings."

I sure have that, but I don't care about Moralisms and mourning a tragic past which can trigger wars TODAY.

"As always, the humanitarian voice of reason. Bravo, Frans."

You're National Socialist and a Humanitarian moralist... well, I guess everyone can think up their own brand of NS.
But if you really care so much about people, the best to do is to forget past atrocities. The memory of Katyns', Auschwitz', Kosovo 1389's and others except them, are sometimes murderous TODAY, not just in history books.

Oskorei
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 11:00 PM
"It's not "fortunately history" if the girl who was raped was family. Family is REAL. "Brotherhood" is an abstraction. Unconscionable acts that happen to family, kin and tribe can never and should never be forgotten."

Well, first then: If brotherhood is an abstraction, why are you a "NS Idealist" fighting for the 'White Race'? The 'White Race' must be the greatest abstractions of all.

Second: I don't care about Moralism, only realities. It's bad for the brotherhood of all Europeans to bring up all these historical agonies. I mean: How far are we gonna go?? Swedish mercenaries raped thousands and thousands of girls and women in the German States during the Thirty Years' War, and 1/3 of the whole population was either killed or forced to refuge (not only because of Swedes, but Sweden sure prolonged the war). Are Germans today to hate Swedes because of that, or is it only WWII atrocities that are never to be forgotten? That sounds like the holocaust cultists.

Lastly then: With your view on retribution and vengeance, you would be welcome to Albania and Kurdistan. They like blood-vengeance over there.

.
We are not to hate other European nationalities, but we are not to forgive the leaders responsible for the massacres (and that primarily are the Allied leaders IMO, but that is of little interest today). And if we really want to avoid future brotherwars, Dresden stands out as a warning for the future.

The way I read it, Siegmund was not expressing hatred for European ethnicities, but for traitorous leaders.

Brotherhood in the meaning of extended family, I do not see as an abstraction though.

And part of the disease of modern Europe is too little blood-vengeance. Those who rape our women and massacre our populations should live in constant fear.

Siegmund
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 11:26 PM
If brotherhood is an abstraction, why are you a "NS Idealist" fighting for the 'White Race'? The 'White Race' must be the greatest abstractions of all.
You should read my profile more carefully. "Idealist National-Socialist" is not the same as "NS Idealist." As for "fighting for the 'White Race,'" you must be thinking of someone else. I don't believe I've ever said such a thing.



Second: I don't care about Moralism, only realities.
For those who have been raped and their families, rape may be the ultimate reality. "Moralism" is another abstraction.



It's bad for the brotherhood of all Europeans to bring up all these historical agonies.
As I said before, I don't believe it's right to gloss over historical realities in the name of an abstraction called "the brotherhood of all Europeans."



Third: I don't know how real family really is
I'm genuinely sorry. :( I can see now why the idea of brotherhood must be important to you on a personal level. So, to clarify: of course I believe that brotherhood exists. The brotherhood of committed comarades in arms, the brotherhood of those who survive catastrophe through strength and trust, the brotherhood of those who struggle against the same injustice are only a few examples. But I don't believe in the "brotherhood" of people whose only common bond is ideology. Ideas in action, yes; ideas in manifestos, no.



Over there in America you're just one big, English-speaking happy white family...
You are sadly misinformed. It is well known that the U.S. is a multi-cultural cesspool.



You're National Socialist and a Humanitarian moralist...
LOL. Labels are not the same as content. :)



the best to do is to forget past atrocities.
And if it were your sister, or father, or brother? Come on, get real, you can't believe this... :)

Siegmund
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 11:34 PM
The way I read it, Siegmund was not expressing hatred for European ethnicities, but for traitorous leaders.
Absolutely. Deling, check out all the Slovene, Croatian, Ukranian and other non-Germanic poems I've posted. You'll find no evidence of any disrespect for European ethnicities; quite the opposite.



Brotherhood in the meaning of extended family, I do not see as an abstraction though.
Agreed :) , as I clarified in my previous post to Deling.



And part of the disease of modern Europe is too little blood-vengeance. Those who rape our women and massacre our populations should live in constant fear.
That's my point exactly. Forgetting that these things happened is an open invitation for them to happen again, as well as an injustice to the memories of loved ones.

Kräuterhexe
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Here is a german qoute out of Kräuterhexe's concept (Yes , that is my real name ;) ) Deutschland – Mythologie , Wissenschaft und Politik. Maybe someone is interested in the victim state. If german is not allowed delete it.



Feige erschossen Rotarmisten damals die Bevölkerung der Ostgebiete, „auch unsere 83jährige Tante mit den anderen alten Leuten, die nicht flüchten wollten, fanden wir erschossen in einer Wiese hinter dem Hause liegend.“ schrieb ein ostpreußischer Flüchtling nieder.




"Soldaten, brecht den Hochmut der deutschen Frauen, nehmt Euch, was ihr wollt! Ihr seid die Sieger." steht auf einem Flugblatt des Juden Ilja Ehrenburg.




"Vor dem Haupteingang des Wilson-Bahnhofs erscholl Geschrei. Ich bemerkte, daß eine blonde Frau von der Menge attackiert wurde, obwohl sie sich in akzentfreiem Tschechisch verteidigte. Im Nu war sie umringt, es wurden ihr die Kleider vom Leib gerissen, und schon lag sie nackt und blutüberströmt am Boden, wo sie weiter bearbeitet wurde. Da passierte ein schwerer Bierwagen die Stelle. Unter Tumult wurden die Rosse ausgespannt, an jedes Bein der niedergeschlagenen Frau eines angebunden und in die entgegengesetzte Richtung angetrieben." erinnerte sich Dr. Hans Wagner.




Leonore Geier ist die traurige Zeugin der folgenden Ereignisse „Ich hörte plötzlich lautes Geschrei und schon brachten zwei Rotarmisten fünf Mädchen herein. Der Kommissar befahl ihnen , die Kleider abzulegen. Als diese sich aus Scham widersetzten, hieß er mich, es ihnen zu tun, und mit ihnen ihm zu folgen. Wir schritten über den Hof zur ehemaligen Werksküche, die man völlig ausgeräumt hatte, bis auf ein paar Tische an der Fensterseite. Es war entsetzlich kalt und die Bedauernswerten zitterten. In dem großen, gekachelten Raume erwarteten uns einige Russen, die anscheinend sehr obszöne Bemerkungen machten; denn jedes Wort wurde mit lautem Lachen quittiert. Der Kommissar bedeutete mir, hinzusehen, wie man aus Herrenmenschen Jammerlappen mache.


Nun kamen zwei Polen, nur mit einer Hose bekleidet, herein bei deren Anblick die Mädchen aufschrien. Rasch hatten sie die erste ergriffen und mit dem Rücken über die Tischkante gebogen, bis ihre Gelenke knackten. Ich war fast einer Ohnmacht nahe, als der eine das Messer zog und ihr die rechte Brust vor den Augen der anderen herunterschnitt. Dann hielt er einen Augenblick inne und schnitt die andere Seite ab. Ich habe noch nie einen Menschen so verzweifelt schreien hören wie dieses Mädchen. Nach dieser Operation stach er mehrmals das Messer in den Unterleib, was wiederum vom Johlen der Russen begleitet war.


Die Nächste schrie um Gnade, doch vergebens, da sie besonders hübsch war, hatte ich den Eindruck, man tat das schaurige Werk sehr langsam. Die anderen drei waren ganz zusammengebrochen, sie schrien nach ihrer Mutter und bettelten um einen raschen Tod, doch auch sie ereilte das Schicksal. Die Letzte war noch ein halbes Kind mit einer kaum entwickelten Brust, ihr riß man buchstäblich das Fleisch von den Rippen, bis der weiße Knochen zum Vorschein kam.


Wieder brachte man fünf Mädchen herein, diesmal hatte man genaue Auslese getroffen, alle waren gut entwickelt und hübsch. Als sie die Leiber der Vorgängerinnen sahen, begannen sie zu weinen und zu schreien. Mit schwacher Kraft versuchten sie verzweifelt, sich zu wehren. Doch es half ihnen nichts, die Polen wurden immer grausamer. Der einen schnitten sie den Leib der Länge nach auf und gossen eine Dose Maschinenöl hinein, das sie zu entzünden versuchten. Der anderen schob ein Russe in das Geschlechtsteil, bevor sie ihr die Brüste abschnitten.

Ein großes Gejohle begann, als aus einer Werkzeugkiste eine Säge gebracht wurde.

Jetzt zerriß man den übrigen Mädchen die Brüste damit, was in kurzem den Boden in Blut schwimmen ließ. Ein Blutrausch packte die Russen. Laufend brachte man Mädchen. Wie in einem roten Nebel sah ich das schreckliche Geschehen, immer wieder vernahm ich den unmenschlichen Aufschrei beim Martern der Brüste und das laute Aufstöhnen beim Verstümmeln der Schamteile. Als mir die Knie versagten zwang man mich auf einen Stuhl, der Kommissar achtete stets darauf, daß ich hinblickte ja, als ich mich erbrechen mußte, hielten sie sogar inne bei der Marterung. Ein Mädchen hatte sich nicht ganz entkleidet, es mochte auch etwas älter als die übrigen sein, deren Alter um siebzehn Jahren lag. Man tränkte ihren Büstenhalter mit Öl und entzündete dies, was gelang, und während sie aufschrie, trieb man ihr einen dünnen Eisenstab in die Scheide, bis dieser am Nabel heraustrat.

Auf dem Hofe liquidierte man mit Knüppeln ganze Gruppen von Mädchen, nachdem man die hübschesten für diesen Marterraum ausgesondert hatte. Die Luft war erfüllt vom Todesgeschrei vieler hundert Mädchen. Doch angesichts dessen, was sich hier abspielte war der Totschlag draußen geradezu human. Es war eine furchtbare Tatsache, daß keines der hier verstümmelten Mädchen die Besinnung verlor. Jede erlitt die Verstümmelung bei vollem Bewußtsein.

Im Entsetzen waren alle gleich in ihren Äußerungen; stets war es das Gleiche, das Betteln um Gnade, der hohe Schrei beim Schneiden der Brust und das Stöhnen beim Verletzen der Geschlechtsteile. Mehrmals unterbrach man das Morden, um das Blut herauszukehren und die Leichen wegzuschaffen.“




Prof. Hans Doerr kommt zu diesem Schluß: „Nach seinen Berechnungen sind mindestens rund zwei Millionen Frauen vergewaltigt worden, wobei mindestens 200 000 umkamen. Die Zahl der 2 Millionen ergibt sich nach Dr. Reichling aus 110 000 Opfern in Berlin, 500 000 in der sowjetisch besetzten Zone Deutschlands, 1,4 Millionen in den deutschen Vertreibungsgebieten.“

Siegmund
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Here is a german qoute out of Kräuterhexe's concept
How horrible... And we should forget this? :~(

Kräuterhexe
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 12:04 AM
No we shouldn't. Really not. But the goverment says the only bad guys while WW2 were the germans. :~( :thumbdown

Deling
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 12:07 AM
SIEGMUND:
Then I misunderstood you. Well, hating Stalin, Molotov, Zjukov and the others is something I got no problem with.

"You should read my profile more carefully. "Idealist National-Socialist" is not the same as "NS Idealist." As for "fighting for the 'White Race,'" you must be thinking of someone else. I don't believe I've ever said such a thing."

It's true.
But most so-called NS place Racialism in the bottom of the barrel, so to speak, so I assumed you did too.

"For those who have been raped and their families, rape may be the ultimate reality. "Moralism" is another abstraction."

True in a sense. But I must say that I don't condone mass rape, I just thought that bringing the issue up with a clear purpose (anti-Sovietism, and in reality: Anti-Russicism) is a different matter than these historical facts.

"As I said before, I don't believe it's right to gloss over historical realities in the name of an abstraction called "the brotherhood of all Europeans.""

I believe that the brotherhood of all Europeans is possible. Its Spirit exist, but it has not yet been revealed, even though deep down all Europeans will and must realize that they are first and foremost European, then else.

"I'm genuinely sorry. I can see now why the idea of brotherhood must be important to you on a personal level. So, to clarify: of course I believe that brotherhood exists. The brotherhood of committed comarades in arms, the brotherhood of those who survive catastrophe through strength and trust, the brotherhood of those who struggle against the same injustice are only a few examples. But I don't believe in the "brotherhood" of people whose only common bond is ideology. Ideas in action, yes; ideas in manifestos, no."

Brotherhood is another word for Community to me. I believe in another world that's possible, where Europeans are a community: a higher being.
But I agree in one thing: "Ideas in manifestos, no". But history bounds people together, whether they like it or not.

"You are sadly misinformed. It is well known that the U.S. is a multi-cultural cesspool."

I know, but all Neo-Europeans in America is a big English-speaking happy white family. Same culture, same language, same sense of over-identity. That's what I meant.

"LOL. Labels are not the same as content."

Of course not, I just used a 'guilt by association'-like argument.

"And if it were your sister, or father, or brother? Come on, get real, you can't believe this..."

The thing is that rememberance cults may very well result in the raping and killing of my sister, father and brother. Rememberance cults have a purpose: point of the enemy, and direct hatred towards it. Serbs came to remember Kosovo 1389 in the 1990's for a reason...

Many of my Finnish relatives died during the Winter war, on the German sides I know one or two were killed, Grandfather's cousine Fritz survived after walking from Ukraine to West Germany. But all this is history, and I didn't knew these relatives. To me it's whatever, and from the Finnish side I know what 'rememberance' do: create hate.

You're American, do you still remember those Unionists who lost their life in the civil war? Or perhaps you're a Southerner...do you feel antipathy towards the North?
The European strifes are nothing more than civil war either. It has just spilled many times more blood than the American.

There's to much rememberance and living in the past. Europeans no longer kills eachother, and all sides have their guilt. Isn't that enough?

Fraxinus Excelsior
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 12:19 AM
It's a pity, but it's fortunately history. The brutal rapes, tortures and molesting of Central European women is a tragedy which I believe have to be forgotten; for the sake of brotherhood.Serious question (not intending to flame): so, by using the same logic, why haven't you been able to "forgive and forget" the German National Socialists and Italian Fascists for whatever it is have you against them?

Siegmund
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Rememberance cults have a purpose: point of the enemy, and direct hatred towards it.
Perhaps true of cults in general, but "remembrance" in and of itself is simply honoring the memory of those who are now gone.

You're profile politics says "Longing For Peace & Love." I believe it. :)

Nuke_Dukem
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 11:10 AM
"Red Army soldiers raped two million German women, and thousands of Soviet women in occupied Eastern Europe, says a book published on Monday. "


Yes they did and thats disgusting but the Nazi soldiers raped just as much and also killed innocents fathoms more than the red army did. The tit for tat brutality between the germans and russians was a sad affair, it was trully a vicious cycyle of hate.

WhiteRebel
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 12:41 PM
I read an article over dictators. There was a ranking and Stalin got first place. He killed 30 Million own Russian People... hitler was place 4.

Deling
Wednesday, February 9th, 2005, 03:53 PM
"Serious question (not intending to flame): so, by using the same logic, why haven't you been able to "forgive and forget" the German National Socialists and Italian Fascists for whatever it is have you against them?"

Of course! I haven't said anything else. I don't know what I should forgive though... I can't remember anything that makes me hate NS-Germany. For me the past is neutral, I won't get emotional about it. Atleast not anymore.

"Perhaps true of cults in general, but "remembrance" in and of itself is simply honoring the memory of those who are now gone."

Sure, but it HAS A PURPOSE. Why do Latvian authorities build SS monuments now, when they're safe behind the wall of EU and NATO? It's not mourning, it a high political game.
When the Croats broke out of the Yugoslavian federation, Serbian authorities made sure Serbs remembered Ustasja.
Jewish organisations make sure Jews remember holocaust, not because of empathy, but for political reasons.

That's why I don't trust "rememberance"; always directed by some interests for purposes.

"You're profile politics says "Longing For Peace & Love." I believe it."

Don't take it too serious...I was just tired of all '-isms' people call themselves here, like "Aristocratic this-or-that Albocrat", "National Futurist", "Technocratic Neo-Libertarian bla bla"...

"I read an article over dictators. There was a ranking and Stalin got first place. He killed 30 Million own Russian People... hitler was place 4."

Ok.

Berliners Remember
Thursday, February 17th, 2005, 01:35 AM
"Red Army soldiers raped two million German women, and thousands of Soviet women in occupied Eastern Europe, says a book published on Monday. "


Yes they did and thats disgusting but the Nazi soldiers raped just as much and also killed innocents fathoms more than the red army did. The tit for tat brutality between the germans and russians was a sad affair, it was trully a vicious cycyle of hate.

WHAT???? who says they did? id like to see where you get your info from.
As a matter of fact the German Army was one of the most discaplined amries ever...For example German troops didnt get thier daily vodka rashions and charge into battle with drunk courage.....you might see american planes with cartoons or naked women painted on them. You wouldnt see that in the German army because they had strict disapline. Now im not saying they didnt rape because rape of the enemies women has been a part of war since it has began, however its insane to say the German amy did what you say they did. At the time red army propaghandi may have said that but it was not true for the most part more of Ilya Ehrenbergs jew wickedness speaking there. the germans hated finding civilians in battlefield conditions...(taken fromt he book stalingrad) on one occasion a fairy carrying russian civilians to the outter bank was hit by Soviet arrtillery, the germans sent a boat to rescue them and the russians targeted them and killed them(which enraged the German commander) so you see how the Red Army kind of used its own people as a sheild...terrible the way they had a disregard for their own people.---Beside the point i mean the Red Army in 1945 were bunch of undiscaplined drunken hoards who killed, raped, looted, and pillaged without remorse...Russian tank commanders still deney the crimes to this day.

nordbert
Thursday, January 19th, 2006, 05:53 PM
after taht russians aren't friends of german people!
and my vaterland - ostpreussen? ? ? silesia, pomerania?
stettin, danzig, breslau, koningsberg?? and my towns- allenstein, neidenburg? ruined!
red army :thumbdown russians :thumbdown
and japanese for '41 :thumbdown
italians for theyrs great army :thumbdown
and ofcourse jews in america, and england :thumbdown (white americans and englisch people are ok now....)

Euclides
Friday, December 8th, 2006, 01:11 PM
Russians angry at war rape claims
By Daniel Johnson
(Filed: 25/01/2002)



RUSSIA'S ambassador has accused the historian Anthony Beevor of "an act of blasphemy" against the Russian people for publishing details of the mass rapes committed by Soviet soldiers in Germany at the end of the Second World War.

In a letter published in The Daily Telegraph today, Grigory Karasin appears to deny that the rapes occurred, declaring: "I have no intention to take part in any debate on these obvious lies and insinuations."

Mr Karasin claims that the article's appearance shortly before Holocaust Memorial Day "transforms its publication into an act of blasphemy not only against Russia and my people but also against all countries and peoples who suffered from Nazism".

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He adds: "It is a disgrace to have anything to do with this clear case of slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism."

Western historians agree that in 1945-47 the Soviet forces raped hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of German women. The rapes are well documented, as is the fact that Stalin tolerated and even encouraged them as a form of revenge.

A forthcoming book about the siege of Berlin by Mr Beevor, author of Stalingrad, claims that archives show that "[Soviet] soldiers were raping the Russian and Polish women and girls who were coming out of the concentration camps too".

But public debate on the subject remains taboo in post-Soviet Russia, where the Great Patriotic War is still seen as above criticism. Even in liberal or academic circles where the atrocities of Stalin and other Communists are no longer denied, there is very little discussion of Soviet war crimes against the Germans or their allies.

Mr Karasin, 52, a career diplomat from the Soviet era, was appointed two years ago

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/25/wruss25.xml

Euclides
Friday, December 8th, 2006, 01:29 PM
EXCERPT
CHAPTER ONE

GERMAN MIDNIGHT: THE DIVISION OF EUROPE, 1945

THE SPRING OF 1945

THE WAR IN EUROPE ended officially on 8 May 1945, a date that marks the death of the Third Reich and the birth of a new Europe. To those present, however, death seemed far more apparent than renewal. Hitler's armies had laid waste to the continent, murdered millions of people, waged ideological warfare upon the nations of Europe, and undertaken a horrific plan to exterminate Europe's Jews. There was nothing in the smoldering cinders to suggest that the future held anything but toil and pain.

In the early years of the war, Germany had been spared the sort of destruction that the Wehrmacht so readily inflicted upon other countries. The chief victims then had been Poland, the Soviet Union, the Low Countries, France, Greece, and Yugoslavia. By 1943, however, Germans began to get a taste of the sort of suffering other Europeans knew well. In the last year and a half of the war, the Allied bombing offensive exacted a terrible toll against German cities, taking over a million lives. In July 1943, for example, bombers from Britain's Royal Air Force struck the industrial city of Hamburg, a major port on the North Sea. Incendiary bombs created a firestorm that ultimately engulfed eight square miles, killing 45,000 people. From November 1943 to March 1944, the RAF and US Army Air Force concentrated on Berlin, leaving the city in ruins but doing little to bring the government closer to surrender. In February 1945, just three months before the end of the war, Allied bombers launched a massive air assault on the city of Dresden. This ancient capital of Saxony, once called the Florence of the Elbe for its magnificent baroque architecture, possessed little heavy industry. Following an assault by some eight hundred RAF bombers and 311 American B-17s, the city was swallowed by fire, and over 50,000 people were incinerated. By the end of the war, most of Germany's major industrial cities in the Western part of the country were completely shattered. Ninety percent of the buildings in DYsseldorf, the major city of the industrial Ruhr Valley in Western Germany, were uninhabitable. Nearby Cologne lost 72 percent of its buildings, and 95 percent of its population had fled the city.

Vengeance came not just from the skies. It also came at the hands of the occupying armies, particularly the Soviet Red Army. Recent scholarship now puts the Soviet death toll during the Second World War at the staggering figure of 25.5 million. In the era of total war, civilians died in greater numbers than combatants: the Soviet Union suffered 8.6 million military and 16.9 million civilian deaths.1 Most of the civilians died as a result of the exterminationist occupation policies imposed by the Germans in Ukraine and Belorussia, where the population was enslaved and starved to death. It should come as no surprise that after four years of ferocious war between Russia and Germany, the victorious Red Army was primed to return the favor in equal measure. Russian soldiers were urged on by their commanders to behave as brutally as possible. In January 1945, as his vast army was about to cross onto German soil, Soviet marshal Georgi Zhukov, victor of Stalingrad and soon to become the commander of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany, exhorted his men to crush the Germans without pity:

The great hour has tolled! The time has come to deal the enemy a last and decisive blow, and to fulfill the historical task set us by Comrade Stalin: to finish off the fascist animal in his lair and raise the banner of victory over Berlin! The time has come to reckon with the German fascist scoundrels. Great and burning is our hatred! We have not forgotten the pain and suffering done to our people by Hitler's cannibals. We have not forgotten our burnt-out cities and villages. We remember our brothers and sisters, our mothers and fathers, our wives and children tortured to death by Germans. We shall avenge those burned in the devil's ovens, avenge those who suffocated in the gas chambers, avenge the murdered and the martyred. We shall exact a brutal revenge for everything.

Sadly, it was the weak and defenseless, the villagers and townspeople of Eastern Germany, who first felt the impact of the Soviet army. Pumped up with Zhukov's rhetoric, Soviet soldiers unleashed a campaign of terror in the Eastern German lands of Pomerania, Silesia, and East Prussia that was barbaric even by the standards of an already ghastly war. Not only were Germans abused, terrorized, and driven off their land, but they were murdered in large numbers, and women in particular were made into targets of abuse. German women were raped in unimaginable numbers, then often killed or left to die from their wounds. Some women's bodies were found raped, mutilated, and nailed to barn doors. Hundreds of thousands of women have given testimony to the rapes they endured at the hands of the Russians; historian Norman Naimark has estimated that as many as 2 million may have been sexually assaulted. Worse, most women were victims of repeated rapings; some were raped as many as sixty to seventy times.

With cruel irony, this outburst of violence seemed to confirm the wartime fulminations of Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, that the Russians were inhuman beasts. One member of an anti-Nazi cell in Berlin, a woman named Ruth Andreas-Friedrich, has left a vivid account of the sense of shock and fear that these assaults left upon German people. Writing in her diary on 6 May 1945, she observed:

These days have become dangerous to many. Panic prevails in the city. Dismay and terror. Wherever we go, there is pillaging, looting, violence. With unrestrained sexual lust our conqueror's army has flung itself upon the women of Berlin.

We visit Hannelore Thiele, Heike's friend and classmate. She sits huddled on her couch. "One ought to kill oneself," she moans. "This is no way to live." She covers her face with her hands and starts to cry. It is terrible to see her swollen eyes, terrible to look at her disfigured features.

"Was it really that bad?" I ask.

She looks at me pitifully. "Seven," she says. "Seven in a row. Like animals."

Inge Zaun lives in Klein-Machnow. She is eighteen years old and didn't know anything about love. Now she knows everything. Over and over again, sixty times.

"How can you defend yourself?" she says impassively, almost indifferently. "When they pound at the door and fire their guns senselessly. Each night a new one, each night others. The first time when they took me and forced my father to watch, I thought I would die."

..."They rape our daughters, they rape our wives," the men lament. "Not just once, but six times, ten times and twenty times." There is no other talk in the city. No other thought either. Suicide is in the air ...

"Honor lost, all lost," a bewildered father says and hands a rope to his daughter who has been raped twelve times. Obediently she goes and hangs herself from the nearest window sash.

For a generation of Germans, then, the spring of 1945 would forever be linked with the image of a grime-encrusted, battle-scarred Russian soldier, boots on, forcing himself upon a German woman.

We must stretch our imagination to place these scenes of raped and tortured women into a broader whole, one even more grisly when considered in its full scale. In the months after the war's end, all of Europe was crawling with disoriented people, moving in all directions, most of them crossing into or out of Central Europe. In a continent overrun with armies, the face of war did not belong to the soldier but to the refugee.

The displaced persons (DPs), as they were clinically termed, numbered about 13 million in the summer of 1945. Among these were 10 million foreign workers who had been shipped into Germany from all across Europe to provide slave labor for the German war machine. They now began to drift home, though without any easy means of transportation. Millions of prisoners of war and concentration camp survivors joined this flood. The bulk of these people passed through massive refugee camps established by the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA). This organization provided relief--albeit very limited--to an astonishing array of nationalities. In addition to millions of West Europeans, who found it on the whole fairly easy to return to their nations of origin, UNRRA gave shelter to Russians, Poles, Balts, Yugoslavs, and Central European Jews, for whom the return home was made more difficult by the broken transport networks and the far greater war damage.

UNRRA did not exist simply to provide a meager plate of soup. Its purpose was to bring some sense of order to the massive population flows. UNRRA established demarcation lines all across Germany and set up assembly centers where DPs could be collected and sorted and classified. The DPs were given a cursory medical examination, deloused, and issued ration cards. Security checks were made in order to prevent the escape of wanted enemy nationals from Germany. Then the DPs were sent on their way, the goal being to get them out of Germany, and out of UNRRA camps, as soon as possible.

Life in the UNRRA camps was terribly hard. Every sort of accommodation was used for housing people, including barracks, concentration camps, schools, factories, barns, stables, and tents. DPs interned in such facilities were looked after by a skeletal team of Allied soldiers, doctors, and orderlies, who attempted to establish at least some basic order. German POWs were used to dig latrines and build temporary shelters. Supplies were requisitioned from the local German population, though the Germans themselves were already in bad shape. DPs were provided with meager rations of potatoes and soup, and were lucky to receive fifteen hundred calories a day--barely enough to survive. The official British history of this period acknowledges the failings of Allied policy toward the DPs:

For the individual displaced person the actuality of conditions in the centers fell sadly short of the hopes and excitement that had filled him when he knew the war was over and that he had been liberated from his Nazi masters. Accommodation was often damaged and squalidly patched up with salvaged or improvised material. Water, electricity, and sanitation were scarce. In the circumstances of the time such conditions were inescapable. They were better than those of many Germans, but in all these respects displaced persons were frequently worse off than they had been under the Nazis.

Perhaps the most tragic group among Europe's woeful refugees were the Soviet DPs. While the French, Italians, and Poles were on the whole eager to get back to their homes, many Soviet citizens were anxious about the fate that awaited them upon their return. They had good reason to worry, as Stalin viewed DPs, as well as Soviet POWs, with great suspicion. They had spent time abroad, had worked for the enemy, had betrayed their nation and their ideology. Nonetheless, thousands were forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union under an international agreement between the Allied powers. Soviet displaced persons would be sent back, the agreement had said, "regardless of their individual wishes." Under this agreement, some 2 million Soviet DPs were repatriated from the Western portion of Germany under Anglo-American control; to these may be added another 3 million in Eastern Germany already in Russian hands. Upon their arrival in Soviet-held territory, DPs were sorted into categories, and anyone considered to be politically suspect or in any way a potential threat to the regime was simply liquidated. Of the 5 million returning Soviet citizens, only about one-fifth were allowed to return to their homes and families. The rest were sent to forced-labor camps or executed.

Alongside these bedraggled refugees, another of Europe's tragedies now unfolded, generated not by the war itself but by the territorial changes instituted at the war's conclusion. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, the three great powers--the United States, Britain, and the Soviet Union--agreed that the postwar territory of Germany would be considerably diminished. Poland was granted control of Pomerania, Silesia, and half of East Prussia--some 40,000 square miles, with a prewar population of 9 million Germans. (This transfer of territory would compensate for the loss of 70,000 square miles of eastern Poland that was to be incorporated into the Soviet Union.) The tentative deal struck at Yalta was confirmed at the Potsdam Conference of July-August 1945, where Roosevelt's successor, Harry S. Truman, lifted his initial objections to the plan in the interests of maintaining good US-Soviet relations.

In light of these territorial changes, the millions of Germans in these eastern lands now under Polish control instantly became targets of vilification and abuse at the hands of Polish authorities. The same was true in Czechoslovakia, where hundreds of thousands of Germans, especially in the west of the country, were targeted for expulsion. In a gruesome echo of Nazi policy toward the Jews, Polish and Czech authorities rounded up Germans in internment camps or simply placed them on rail cars and shipped them into Germany, there to be dealt with by the already overwhelmed occupation authorities. The numbers involved in this immense transfer of population are not exact, but German authorities have estimated that some 11.7 million people of German descent were expelled from the lands of the old German Reich, from Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other countries such as Hungary, Romania, and Yugoslavia. Many of these Germans had fled voluntarily from what they rightly expected would be a marauding Red Army. The rest were forcibly expelled. The expulsions were accompanied by intense violence, the revenge of Poles and Czechs upon the ethnic Germans who for the six previous years had so cruelly treated them. Over 2 million of these expellees were killed or went missing during this ghastly chapter of ethnic cleansing. All of this was undertaken with the tacit approval of the great powers. To make matters worse, about two-thirds of these Germans flooded into Western Germany, there to be added to the already large numbers of refugees. Despite losing a quarter of its territory, Germany's population grew by 17 percent--and this in a country already ground into rubble by six years of war.7

So to the hungry of Berlin, the raped women of Eastern Germany, and the multinational flood of refugees--to this collective portrait of tormented Europe add the saga of the Volksdeutsche, the ethnic Germans, who were now forcibly uprooted, packed onto cattle cars with doors nailed shut, and sent westward.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385497992&view=excerpt

Lissu
Friday, December 8th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Actually I don't think there's much Mongol ancestry in Russians, the empire of the Genghis Khan was glorious but short. But what Muscovites inherited from the Mongols was their way of ruling and psychology. Then Muscovites took over more civilized Russian nations and the rest is history. Russian pychology is not European, and thus Russia will never be a part of Europe the same way countries from Russia to west are.

However, the crimes committed by Soviets are something that cannot be forgotten. They cannot be forgiven until Russia officially admittes these really happened.

Back on topic: if it's really documented that after the "liberation" some 2 million abortions were made, it means that the number of rapes can be multiplied. Rape is actually quite inefficent way to impergnate and it's very unlikely all raped women got pregnant.

Patrioten
Friday, December 8th, 2006, 09:30 PM
I've own the book in question and i can recommend it, even though the parts describing the beastly behaviour of the red army were at times so vile that i didn't want to continue reading it.

Yaroslav
Monday, December 11th, 2006, 09:54 PM
If all messages on these crimes are true it is horror. I condemn these crimes. My great-grandfather was at war with 1942 on 1945 and he has finished war in Germany. I very much hope, that he did not took part in these crimes in Germany.
Thus at Germans on this problem a sight only on the one side. I think, that for the sake of justice it is necessary to tell about this problem and on the other side.
1). From the beginning Germany actively helped bolsheviks. All the help to bolsheviks - the money, the weapon, the typographical equipment, a political asylum under the direction of general Ludendorf. Possible to remember, as before World War I the most odious revolutionaries and terrorists alltimes lived in Europe (and in Germany) or leaved there to be hidden after crimes. Germany did not give out terrorists to Russia as now Germany does not give out the Chechen terrorists to Russia.
2). When from Russia was begun communist revolution, and then Civil War I, Germany has continued to help bolsheviks - money, the weapon, military experts.
Some facts:
Germany transferred arms, even submarines for Lenin
Germany transferred Red Army fighting poisoning gases (for example, Tuchachevski used these gases when destroyed revolts of peasants)
Germany directed to Red Army of experts and general-staff officers, masking their Russian surnames and having presented the Russian officers who have come back from a captivity.
Germany has undertaken financial maintenance the organization of groups of mercenaries from chinese, the magyars and Latvians, which bolsheviks used as executioners.
The German special services participated in preparation of attempts at leaders of Russian White movement (for example, general Kaledin) in interests of bolsheviks
In same time Germany was the state - buyer of stolen property, because bought from bolsheviks bread, which bolsheviks selected at peasants (famine in the Volga region) and cultural values of Russian people.
3. Since 1920th years down to 1941 Germany cooperated with bolsheviks, Hitler to show all types of tanks, nothing hiding. Except for it, in exchange for resources, the German industry carried out military orders of the USSR (For example, shipyard « Deschimag ». In the centre of armorsbuilding (Ural) worked unique German press by Schlemann firm with effort in 15 thousand tons. Press was put complete with the crane and the rolling mill.
In 1940 coastal gun batteries on Baltic sea built with the help of the German floating cranes of firm "Demag".
Interestingly put was with cooperation in the field of Military - air forces. The Soviet engineers visited in the German aviation factories and got acquainted with all samples of planes - and had the right to buy not only samples, but also the engineering specifications, samples of engines and separate parts, shooting arms and the navigating equipment, and even samples anti-armor instruments and an antiaircraft artillery.
4. In spite of the fact that the Soviet leaders never keep it of a secret, that all sense of creation of the Soviet state - to distribute communism to all Europe, having started World war. It was spoken completely openly, I can result set of citations on this theme.

Question: who is guilty in war crimes of Red Army in 1945 against Germans?
Answer: Idiotism and low act of a German management which have concluded the contract with the Devil. (Lenin: « our happiness, that in the West so is a lot of rascals and idiots. We their hands build our communistic future»)

When there was a First World war, Russia was at war fairly. Germany - not. Germany used and helped for bolsheviks. Some communistic citations:
«The Red Army will be the most attacking army in the world. Revolution in Russia is not present sense if not to consider Communistic Russia as jumping-off place for communistic attack of Europe. The first purpose - Germany. Germany - a key of Europe »
«The Purpose of war - to destroy army of the enemy and it to provide for itself an opportunity uncontrolled and with nothing of the limited violence»

In 1945 to Germany has returned Red Evil which was maintained and brought up by Germany. All is fair. A boomerang)))))))))))

I am very respect Germany, but I think – theme about 1945 must be ended. You have claims to us. We have claims to you. 1:1;)


One guy was here, he wrote: " Mongols – ancestors of Russian ". he the mega-idiot.:-O
It is not necessary to speak about punishment for crimes1945" more. We too can speak about punishment for Kosovo, for refuges to the Chechen terrorist and another.

BopoH
Tuesday, December 12th, 2006, 06:49 AM
With cruel irony, this outburst of violence seemed to confirm the wartime fulminations of Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, that the Russians were inhuman beasts.

A serious writer or historian would never present information in such a way. He would just present straight facts and let the reader deal with conclusions. This is a level of newspaper "pravda" or any other agitprop aimed at masses who refuse to think for themselves. I do not know how any intelligent person would not see that. But than again you see what you want to see.

Regarding the issue itself - I simply do not have enough info to form an opinion, and I refuse to believe sources like this one. Russian sources claim entirely opposite things, but I do want to know whether this happened or not, and Russians should only apologize in case there is something to apologize for.

Euclides
Wednesday, December 13th, 2006, 12:07 PM
One guy was here, he wrote: " Mongols – ancestors of Russian ". he the mega-idiot.:-O
It is not necessary to speak about punishment for crimes1945" more. We too can speak about punishment for Kosovo, for refuges to the Chechen terrorist and another.


from Pravda:

“On average, 50% of people in Moscow possess such Mongol gene. We assume that this particular gene is to blame,” said Nuzhny.

In the course of the research, scientists paid 12 students-volunteers to consume 350 grams of vodka in an hour. Their behavior was closely monitored.

“Based on the Western standards, 350 grams of vodka is a lot. In Russia however this is a norm,” informed doctor Nuzhny The Times

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/360/11931_alcoholism.html


Also Rusian soldiers raping and mutilating woman in Germany/Hungary/Poland... were usually described as drunk beasts, ... of course it´s not a coincidence...

Yaroslav
Wednesday, December 13th, 2006, 08:10 PM
You have resulted very authoritative source in scientific community))))) This great knowlege - 50 % of Russians have the Mongolian genes. You the great scientist!))))


1). O. Irisova “Polymorphism of eritrocitarns sour phosphatase in various groups of the population of Soviet Union” (Moscow, ”Questions of anthropology”, book 53, 1976)

“Among the population of Europe rather wide dispersion on three allels is marked: pha, phb, phc. As a whole seldom meeting gene phc is the characteristic attribute marking Europeoid populations (0, 030-0, 070). Allel pha varies at the European population within the limits of 0, 268-0, 402. At Negroid populations frequency pha changes in narrower frameworks from 0, 16 up to 0, 25. Mongoloids have the widest spectrum of variability allels pha and phb and, nevertheless, they practically do not have gene phc ». The myth about genetic consequences of a mongolo-tatar yoke in Russia again full breakdown: at Russian there is a gene phc, and at Mongols of it is not..”.

2). G, Chit «Dermatogliphik of peoples of the USSR» (Moscow: "Science" Public House, 1983)

“ The analysis of figures of prints of fingers - Russian alongside with Byelorussians are homogeneous in the attitude of a skin relief and have the cleanest europian complex. »

3). N.Cheboksarov. “Mongoloid elements in the population of the Central Europe” Publik House of The Moscow State University. , 1941).

«Mongoloid epikantus. At mongolid epikantus present in 70-95 % of mongoloids, but from more than 8, 5 thousand surveyed Russians people epikantus have found in only 12 cases, besides only in embryo … the Same extremely rare epikantus occurrence is observed at the population of Germany…»

4). V. Derjabin «Modern Ost-slavic peoples» (Moscow “Scientific world”, 1999

«At comparison of anthropological attributes for peoples of Europe and for Russian it was found out, that Russian on many racial properties borrow among Europeans higher position. It is observed on length of a body, the sizes of a head and heads form, high-altitude and sizes of the faces and their ratio. Russians are the most typical and clean Europeans. On pigmentation of eyes and hair Russian in is more blonde above average European type. Light eyes (grey, gray-blue, blue and dark blue) at Russians - in 45 %, an average level for Europe - only 35 %. Dark eyes -5 % Russians, the population of Europe - on the average 45 %. Dark hair at Russians - in 14 % of cases, whereas at the population of Europe - in 45 %…”

Its enough? Can be to deny idiotic clause(article) in the idiotic newspaper, I should recollect set of other scientists - from Mechnikof, Perevozchijof, Philipchenko up to Ilse Schwidezki and Chemberlen? Can be, we shall remember participation of Russian scientists in a racial science of the Third Reich?

:P :P :P 50% of Russians have a Mongoloid Genes”:P :P :P
:P :P :P Mongols traveled through Asia and Russia and afterwards invaded Europe in XII century. They ruled Russia for nearly 300 years. Interracial marriages were quite common between Mongols and people of other nations.:P :P :P

Vingolf
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 10:30 AM
You have resulted very authoritative source in scientific community

What about looking into your own sources?



“The analysis of figures of prints of fingers - Russian alongside with Byelorussians are homogeneous in the attitude of a skin relief and have the cleanest europian complex. »Sounds very objectively, indeed... Any talk of ethnic or racial homogeneity in these countries - Eurasian crossroads for thousands of years and bereft of natural borders - does not belong to the realm of science.



«... Russian on many racial properties borrow among Europeans higher position. It is observed on length of a body, the sizes of a head and heads form, high-altitude and sizes of the faces and their ratio. Russians are the most typical and clean Europeans."
"Scientific objectivity"...


Can be, we shall remember participation of Russian scientists in a racial science of the Third Reich?Give us some names, then.



Mongols traveled through Asia and Russia and afterwards invaded Europe in XII century. They ruled Russia for nearly 300 years. Interracial marriages were quite common between Mongols and people of other nations.Precisely... The Mongols invaded Eastern Europe in the 13th century. Western Europe was never conquered.


Please note that the denigration of whole ethnicities, in particular European ethnicities, is not permitted on Skadi. See rules ##5, 6 of the Skadi Rules.

I think some of the Slavic participants here should keep this in mind. Their anti-Germanism should not be permitted on Skadi.

Vingolf
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 01:36 PM
I think we do Skadi, our community, and the quality of the debates a favor by not permitting the bashing and slander of whole ethnicities. Such conduct isn't shared by the overwhelming majority of our members, would put Germanics into a bad light and would unnecessarily deteriorate their relationship to other Europeans.

I agree.



Naturally, statements hostile to Germanics or their heritage are not allowed either (see #1 of the Skadi Rules). Guests are expected to show those manners that are traditionally expected from them.


I agree. Some of the non-Germanics here, though, tend to behave otherwise.


If posts aren't reported, dubious messages of any kind might slip through. Given the daily volume of posts, we can't read everything and really depend on the assistance of our members. Are you referring to particular posts?

Examples are numerous, but allow me to emphasize some key issues triggering particularly Slavic (mostly Russian) anti-Germanism:

1) The impact of Germanic elites on Russian and Eastern European history
2) Unique Germanic contributions to "world civilization"
3) WWII (war crimes, the Nuremberg trials, racial and civilizational issues)

Vingolf
Saturday, December 16th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Thanks. We are well aware which ones are potentially explosive topics, but to act we need concrete post IDs. All Staff members help out voluntarily and none of them will have the time to read through 1,000s of posts to find the unspecified examples.

One fresh example: http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=703475&postcount=145

At the last page of that thread, the Russian participant "Yaroslav" openly exhibits his radical anti-Normannist anti-Germanism (denying, for instance, that the Rurikid dynasty was of Scando-Germanic origin).

Euclides
Monday, December 18th, 2006, 12:50 PM
the statement that the Mongolians are the ancestors of the modern Russians and that the Russians thus would have a genetic predisposition towards rape is plainly insulting and absurd. The corresponding statements were removed. .




Absurd? Could be...because we live in a strange world.Absurd, but real.Mass rape is an absurd.Human sexual behavior , as in others animals, is strongly related to genetics.

-------------------------------------------------------
Mol Psychiatry. 2006 Aug;11(8):782-6. Epub 2006 Apr 18.

Polymorphisms in the dopamine D4 receptor gene (DRD4) contribute to individual differences in human sexual behavior: desire, arousal and sexual function.


Ben Zion IZ, Tessler R, Cohen L, Lerer E, Raz Y, Bachner-Melman R, Gritsenko I, Nemanov L, Zohar AH, Belmaker RH, Benjamin J, Ebstein RP.
Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel.

Although there is some evidence from twin studies that individual differences in sexual behavior are heritable, little is known about the specific molecular genetic design of human sexuality. Recently, a specific dopamine D4 receptor (DRD4) agonist was shown in rats to induce penile erection through a central mechanism. These findings prompted us to examine possible association between the well-characterized DRD4 gene and core phenotypes of human sexual behavior that included desire, arousal and function in a group of 148 nonclinical university students. We observed association between the exon 3 repeat region, and the C-521T and C-616G promoter region SNPs, with scores on scales that measure human sexual behavior. The single most common DRD4 5-locus haplotype (19%) was significantly associated with Desire, Function and Arousal scores. The current results are consistent with animal studies that show a role for dopamine and specifically the DRD4 receptor in sexual behavior and suggest that one pathway by which individual variation in human desire, arousal and function are mediated is based on allelic variants coding for differences in DRD4 receptor gene expression and protein concentrations in key brain areas.

Euclides
Monday, December 18th, 2006, 01:16 PM
the statement that the Mongolians are the ancestors of the modern Russians and that the Russians thus would have a genetic predisposition towards rape is plainly insulting and absurd. The corresponding statements were removed. .



''Differences in human sexuality were historically assumed to be the result of learned behaviour or psychology.''

''But new research into human behaviour and personality has suggested that many aspects of sexuality depend on genetics.''


"These findings suggest that some aspects of human sexual behaviour are hard-wired and that individual differences in sexuality are partially due to specific genes. Such genes may in the future become the targets of specific drug treatments for specific problems."

http://forums.skadi.net/human_sexual_behavior_and_genes-t85914.html

Euclides
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 05:34 AM
It´s considered that Russian soldiers (considered the most undisciplined among the SS Army) also commited rapes when subordinated to Germans ( Vlassov army ).


'' At 10.30am on August 5, 1944, one hundred armed troops in German uniform barged into the Maria Curie-Sklodowska Radium Institute on Wawelska Street in Warsaw. Shouting in loud voices they began searching and looting the entire building. The majority of the soldiers were drunk and were shooting at anyone who barred their way. In the Institute were 80 staff members and about 90 patients. All were robbed of their jewellery, money and personal items. The staff members were taken to a camp at Zieleniak a few kilometres away and for four days and nights were kept in the open without food or water. During this time many of the nurses were dragged out and raped by the drunken mob. At the end of the four days they were transported to Germany for slave labour. Back at the Institute the hospital patients remained in bed while the plundering and destruction of the hospital buildings proceeded. Stores and cupboards were broken open and everything thrown about while some of the female patients were dragged from their beds, assaulted and raped. Around 15 of the seriously sick patients were shot in their beds and their mattresses set on fire. Petrol was poured over the floors of the wards and set alight. Patients still alive (about 70) were then shot, their bodies piled in a heap and doused with petrol and ignited. This atrocity at the Radium Institute took the lives of all patients being treated there. The perpetrators of this horrible crime were mostly Russian soldiers, members of the Vlassov Army. General Vlassov was taken prisoner by the Germans in 1942 and later commanded an army of Russian prisoners of war who volunteered to fight on the German side rather than starve to death in German prison camps.''

taked from George Duncan's HISTORICAL FACTS OF WORLD WAR II

Euclides
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 05:41 AM
It´s considered that Russian soldiers (considered the most undisciplined among the SS Army) also commited rapes when subordinated to Germans ( Vlassov army ).


'' We now had entered the next stage of our fight. The Ochota district was entirely in the hands of Germans, or rather of RONA troops, except for our resistance centered on Kaliska Street and on Wawelska Street. The enemy had then felt ready to culminate their siege and started the systematic destruction of our defense complex by continuous fire from tanks, anti-tank guns, and mortars. The strong five-story high complex of edifices just completed in the late 1930's began to crumble under the continuing fire. The thunder of exploding shells was impossible to endure. We could communicate amongst ourselves only through cellars, as a shower of mortar grenades rained on both large courtyards. The Germans attacked usually in the early mornings 'and followed with gunfire through the evenings.

However, they never attacked at night. Only yells of drunken Wlasow soldiers could be heard, as they committed gang rapes and mass murders in neighboring streets. ''

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/ulankiewicz1.htm

Euclides
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 05:48 AM
and still continues nowdays...


Russian Federation

Serious Violations of Women's Human Rights in Chechnya
To Members of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women
January 2002



Civilians in Chechnya continue to be the victims of systematic violations of human rights and humanitarian law, facing the daily risk of torture, "disappearance," and summary executions at the hands of Russian federal forces. Federal soldiers and police on sweep operations arbitrarily detain men and women, and frequently loot and burn homes. Detainees are often taken to makeshift detention facilities such as pits dug into the ground, where they are routinely tortured and denied all due process rights. 1 Human Rights Watch has conducted investigations into abuses committed in Chechnya since the recurrence of major military clashes in the region in September 1999. In the course of this research, Human Rights Watch has documented credible accounts of violence against women in the region, including sexual violence, and wishes to bring these allegations to the attention of the Committee.

Human Rights Watch is concerned that Russia has resisted a meaningful accountability process. Russian law enforcement agencies have failed to launch serious investigations into most cases of abuse, and have failed to prosecute the perpetrators. The government's failure to investigate abuses against civilians vigorously has fostered an atmosphere of impunity among Russian troops in Chechnya.

Rape and Other Forms of Sexual Violence in Chechnya

Despite cultural taboos against speaking about rape, witnesses provided evidence that Russian soldiers raped Chechen women in areas of Russian-controlled Chechnya and sexually assaulted both men and women in detention centers. In 1999 and 2000, Human Rights Watch researchers found that rapes occurred on the outskirts of villages, at checkpoints, and in detention centers. Fear of rape by Russian forces was pervasive, causing some families, particularly those with young women and girls, to flee and motivating desperate attempts to hide female family members. The cases outlined below draw from direct testimony provided to Human Rights Watch in the field.

Rape of Women Taken from Villages: The Case of Kheda Kungaeva

On March 27, 2000, Kheda Kungaeva, an eighteen-year-old woman, was taken from her home in Chechnya, beaten, raped, and murdered.2 Human Rights Watch has followed the Kungaeva case since we documented the attack, attending the trial of Col. Yuri D. Budanov, who was charged with her murder, in February 2001.3

A forensic medical report, a copy of which we obtained, cited a military procurator's report that on March 27 at 1:00 a.m., Budanov took Kheda Kungaeva, a civilian, from her home in Tangi-Chu and brought her to a military encampment. The forensic examiner concluded that Kungaeva was beaten, anally and vaginally penetrated by a hard object, and strangled at about 3:00 a.m.4 The report cited marks on her neck, the condition of her blood vessels, the tone of her skin, and the condition of her lungs. It found that other injuries such as bruising found on her face, her neck, her right eye, and her left breast were inflicted by a blow with a "blunt, hard object of limited surface," which occurred approximately one hour before her death.

Vissa Kungaev, Kheda Kungaeva's father, provided further detail of the events to Human Rights Watch. He said that between midnight and 1:00 a.m. on March 27, 2000, an armored personnel carrier (APC) drove up to their house, carrying three Russian soldiers, and their commander, Colonel Budanov.5 According to the Kungaev family, armed soldiers entered the Kungaev house. Budanov stood in the corridor while two soldiers entered the bedroom and others guarded the house. First they brought Kungaev's younger daughter out of the room, but when she screamed, Budanov reportedly said, "Let her go, take that one." The soldiers then brought out the eldest daughter, Kheda Kungaeva, and drove her away in the APC.6 Witnesses reported that Budanov was drunk at the time. Later on March 27, a group of villagers traveled to Urus-Martan, seven kilometers away, to search for Kungaeva. Two witnesses told Human Rights Watch that a federal commander in Urus-Martan told the villagers that Kungaeva had been raped by drunken men and was dead.7

Russian authorities arrested Budanov on March 29, 2000. Russian military authorities first publicly accused him of raping and murdering Kungaeva, and subsequently indicted him on charges of murder, kidnapping, and abuse of office. According to press reports, Budanov claimed that Kungaeva was a sniper, and that he had gone into a rage while questioning her. He reportedly admitted killing her, but denied the rape charges.8 Although forensic evidence strongly suggests that Kungaeva was raped, no one is known to have been charged with her rape. Budanov's trial began on February 28, 2001, and has been recessed on numerous occasions. In September 2001, a psychiatric institution found that Budanov was "emotionally distressed" at the time he murdered Kungaeva, allowing the charge to be reduced to manslaughter, and opening the way for him to be amnestied.9

Human Rights Watch also found credible evidence that Russian soldiers committed rape and other forms of sexual violence in the villages of Aldi, Shali, and Alkhan-Yurt.10

Rape at Checkpoints
Russian military and police forces have hundreds of checkpoints within Chechnya and between Chechnya and neighboring regions of Russia. Federal servicemen are notorious for using the checkpoints to extort bribes from civilians; Human Rights Watch also found several cases of rape at checkpoints.

"Alisa Riskhanova" (not her real name) reported to Human Rights Watch researchers that at the end of January 2000, while traveling by bus with a female friend out of Chechnya to Ingushetia, she was stopped at the Kavkaz Russian military checkpoint by Russian contract soldiers, or kontraktniki.11 Ostensibly because the photograph of Riskhanova in her passport did not resemble her actual appearance, the soldiers detained both women. The bus driver pleaded with the soldiers not to detain the women, but the soldiers told the bus driver that the women would be sent back to the town where they were coming from, and the driver left.12

Soldiers took the two women to two separate underground pits near the checkpoint. Four Russian soldiers came to Riskhanova, accused her of being a sniper, gave her a gun and told her to dismantle it, put it back together, and then shoot. Riskhanova reported to Human Rights Watch that she had never held a gun in her hands and did not know how. One of the soldiers hit her, causing her to fall to the floor. Two other soldiers began kicking her. The soldiers, Riskhanova said, told her "you will never have children again." Then the soldiers raped her. After spending three weeks in bed recovering from the abuse, Riskhanova spoke with Human Rights Watch. She believes that Chechens paid the Russian soldiers for her release.

Rape and Sexual Violence in Detention Centers
More than half of those interviewed by Human Rights Watch about detention centers alleged that guards raped and sexually assaulted both male and female detainees. Although none of the interviewees explicitly stated that he or she was a victim of rape, several did describe abuse rising to the level of sexual assault and provided credible evidence of rape in the Chernokozovo facility, a particularly notorious detention center.13 Women reported that male guards forced them to strip inside the detention facility. Sexual violence in the form of forced nudity served to threaten and humiliate detainees, and added to Chernokozovo's environment of terror, intimidation, and degrading treatment. Forced nudity also served as a precursor to additional sexual violence described by both male and female detainees.14 "Fatimah Akhmedova," aged twenty-two, described one incident of forced nudity during an interrogation at Chernokozovo:

On the first day of February at around midnight or so, I was called out for questioning. They forced me to strip and [accused me of being a sniper]. I was questioned by eight people, three were doctors in military uniforms, two of those [doctors] were brought to me when I was sick. I was stripped only for questioning. I saw all of them....They questioned me for one half hour, they shouted and swore at me that if I didn't tell the truth they would keep me there until I died. I was taken out once on [February 1] and three times on the second day.15

In a petition to the European Court of Human Rights, Sasita Khasmagometovna-Khasueva, a nurse from the village of Shali, reported another case. On February 8, 2000, Russian forces transferred her and her fellow medical personnel to Chernokozovo after detaining the group for six days in a large hole dug in the ground in Tolstoy Yurt.16 According to her statement, soldiers separated Khasmagometovna-Khasueva and four other nurses from the male detainees, and they were "stripped naked and forced to dance in front of the soldiers."17

Record of Impunity

Human Rights Watch and other nongovernmental organizations have called for accountability in the face of these abuses. Russian authorities have concealed and obstructed the prosecution of government forces for such violations; acknowledgement, investigation, and prosecution of such crimes against civilians have been alarmingly few, and many were conducted in bad faith.18 In April 2001, a joint Council of Europe-Russian Duma working group compiled a list of 358 criminal investigations into alleged abuses against civilians. But only about 20 percent of the cases were under active investigation and the authorities had suspended more than half of the total investigations. The criminal investigations did not include a single case of torture or ill-treatment and very few abuse cases ever advanced to the courts. Resolutions adopted in April 2000 and April 2001 by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights called for Russia, among other things, to establish a national commission of inquiry to investigate such crimes and to invite U.N. special rapporteurs to conduct investigations in the region. Russia rejected both resolutions and did not fulfill the resolutions' requirements.19

The Russian government failed to mention the conditions of women in Chechnya in its fifth periodic report to the Committee. We hope that this omission can be remedied as the Russian government presents its report to the Committee. We ask the members of the Committee to press the Russian government to end impunity for crimes of violence and sexual violence against civilians in Chechnya. In particular:

· The Russian government should investigate thoroughly all allegations of rape and ill-treatment of civilians, particularly of women. Soldiers and officers alleged to have committed atrocities and violations of human rights or humanitarian law should face investigation and, if the evidence warrants, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

· The Russian government should provide training for all Russian forces in Chechnya on the Geneva Conventions, the Convention against Torture, and the human rights of women.

· Victims and witnesses of human rights and humanitarian law violations should receive witness protection if they agree to cooperate with authorities. The Russian government should ensure that witnesses against perpetrators of these crimes do not face retaliation.

· The Russian government should remove all obstacles delaying the planned visit to Chechnya of the special rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights on violence against women, its causes and consequences.



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1 For documentation on summary executions, see "Field Update on Chechnya," January 22, 2001; "February 5: A Day of Slaughter in Novye Aldi," A Human Rights Watch Report, vol. 12 no. 9, June 2000; "No Happiness Remains: Civilian Killings, Pillage, and Rape in Alkhan-Yurt, Chechnya," A Human Rights Watch Report, vol. 12 no. 5, April 2000; "Civilian Killings in Staropromyslovski District of Grozny," A Human Rights Watch Report, vol. 12 no. 2; "Burying the Evidence: The Botched Investigation into a Mass Grave in Chechnya," A Human Rights Watch Report, vol. 13, no. 3 (D), May 2001; "The "Dirty War" in Chechnya: Forced Disappearances, Torture, and Summary Executions," A Human Rights Watch Short Report, vol. 13, no. 1(D), March 2001. See also, Memorial Human Rights Center reports at http://www.memo.ru/hr/hotpoints/northkavkaz.htm. (accessed January 9, 2002).

2 Kungaeva had just turned eighteen on March 22, 2000. Her given name was Elza, but she was called Kheda. Human Rights Watch interview with Vissa Kungaev, November 16, 2000, Karabulak, Ingushetia. For a full account of the Kungaeva case, see the Human Rights Watch website, "Backgrounder on the Case of Kheda Kungaeva: Trial of Yuri Budanov Set for February 28, 2001," http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/chech-bck0226.htm.

3 See Human Rights Watch Press Release, "More Evidence of Rape by Russian Forces in Chechnya," March 30, 2000. The analysis here is based on interviews with Kungaeva's immediate family, the family's lawyer, one other witness, the armed forces' forensic medical examiner's report, and other documents relevant to the case.

4 Report number 22, Forensic Medical Expertise. Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Forensic Lab 124, Rostov-on-Don, April 30, 2000, hereinafter "Forensic medical report." The forensic physician was V. Lianenko. The report stated, "On the body of K.V. Kungaeva these injuries were found: tears in the hymen and in the mucus membrane of the rectum, caused by insertion of a hard blunt object or objects into the rectum and into the vaginal passage, which is supported by the anatomical characteristics of the injuries specified. It cannot be ruled out that the object was an erect penis. ... The tears occurred not long before death (about one hour), which is indicated by the presence of blood flow in the tear of the mucus membrane of the rectum and hymen, blood flow into the mucus membrane in the area of the tears and the absence of signs of healing. In living people injuries such as these do not cause disruption of health or the loss of general well being and are not considered a threat to health." Forensic medical report, p. 7.

5 Human Rights Watch interview with Vissa Kungaev, November 16, 2000, Karabulak, Ingushetia.

6 Human Rights Watch interview with "B.D.," March 29, 2000, Karabulak, Ingushetia. Also see Human Rights Watch press release, "More Evidence of Rape by Russian Forces in Chechnya."

7 Human Rights Watch interviews, "A.B." and "B.D.," March 29, 2000, Karabulak, Ingushetia.

8 David Filipov, "Chechnya Murder Case Tests Russian Justice," Boston Globe, September 19, 2000; Vasilii Kingadze, "Vesti" news program, Russian Television and Radio, March 31, 2000; "Colonel Budanov Faces Trial," Kommersant, February 7, 2001.

9 "On the declaration of amnesty in connection with the 55th anniversary of victory in the great patriotic war 1941-1945," No. 398-III GD. Adopted by the State Duma on May 26, 2000. The full text was published in Rossiskaya Gazeta, May 30, 2000, p.4. The amnesty provided for the release of all prisoners in the Russian Federation serving sentences of three years or less (approximately 120,000 prisoners) and also amnestied those under investigation or indictment for crimes committed before May 26, 2000 that carry a maximum sentence of three years or less. The law was intended primarily to relieve overcrowding in Russia's prison system. Human Rights Watch takes no position on the amnesty, but is concerned that combined with the poor quality of investigations, the amnesty may serve to undermine accountability for violations of human rights and international humanitarian law committed by federal forces in Chechnya.

10 The attacks took place in Aldi on February 5, 2000; in Shali on December 19, 1999; and in Alkhan-Yurt in December 1999. For more information on each of these cases, see Human Rights Watch, "No Happiness Remains"; Human Rights Watch Press Release, "Rape Allegations Surface in Chechnya," January 20, 2000 (Shali case) (http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/01/chech0120.htm); Human Rights Watch Press Release, "More Evidence of Rpae by Russian Forces in Chechnya," March 30, 2000, available at http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/03/chech0330.htm; and Human Rights Watch Press Release, "Russian Atrocities in Chechnya Detailed: New Information on Massacres in Aldi District of Grozny," June 2, 2000, available at http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/06/chech0602.htm.

11 Contract soldiers are non-officers who serve in the military on a contractual basis.

12 Human Rights Watch interview, "Alisa Riskhanova" (not her real name), March 27, 2000, Nazran, Ingushetia.

13 For additional information on abuses committed by Russian forces in the Chernokozovo and other detention centers in the first year of the war, see Human Rights Watch, "Welcome to Hell:" Arbitrary Detention, Torture, and Extortion in Chechnya (New York: Human Rights Watch, October 2000).

14 Forced nudity is legally a form of sexual violence. The Trial Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) defined sexual violence broadly in its Akayesu decision: "Sexual violence is not limited to physical invasion of the human body and may include acts which do not involve penetration or even physical contact," including forced nudity. Akayesu Judgment, ICTR-967-4-T.

15 Human Rights Watch interview, "Fatimah Akhmedova" (not her real name), March 7, 2000, Ingushetia.

16 Khasmagometovna-Khasueva could not pinpoint the exact date of the transfer.

17 Statement of Sasita Khasmagometovna-Khasueva, Document 1, provided to the European Court of Human Rights. Khasmagometovna-Khasueva fled Chechnya on February 19, 2000.

1, 2001); Medecins du Monde, "Le Desespoir des civils tchetchenes," November 2000; Maura Reynolds, "War Has No Rules for Russian Forces Battling Chechen Rebels," Los Angeles Times, September 17, 2000. For documentation on arbitrary arrest and torture and inhuman treatment, see Human Rights Watch, Welcome to Hell. Vladimir Kalamanov, the special representative for protecting human rights and civil liberties in Chechnya reported 357 complaints of arbitrary detention in its December 2000 report. "Report on the Activity of the Special Representative of the President of the Russian Federation for Guaranteeing Rights and Freedoms of Men and Citizens in the Chechen Republic for the Year 2000," Moscow, December 2000, p. 8. According to this report, none of the thirty-five current criminal investigations against Russian soldiers at that time were for arbitrary detention.
Human Rights Watch, "Memorandum on Domestic Prosecutions for Violations of International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law in Chechnya," February 9, 2001.

19 United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution, "Situation in the Republic of Chechnya of the Russian Federation," CHR Resolution 2000/58, April 25, 2000; United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution,
"Situation in the Republic of Chechnya of the Russian Federation," CHR Resolution 2001/24, April 20, 2001; Human Rights Watch, "Memorandum on Accountability for Humanitarian Law Violations in Chechnya," October 20, 2000.

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/chechnya_women.htm

Euclides
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 05:55 AM
Torture and Rape: Russian military traditions?...

...

History blamed for Russia's bully culture

By Steven Eke
BBC regional analyst


The Human Rights Watch report on violence and brutality in the Russian armed forces reveals just one element in their catastrophic decline since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Russian sociologists say the brutality in the army may also reflect certain Russian historical traditions and cultural factors, especially the widespread acceptance of the notion that order in Russia can be maintained only by brute force.

There are millions of Russian men with first-hand experience of the brutality of their country's army. In private conversations, many will admit they saw severe, physical and sometimes sexual abuse used as a routine means of discipline.

It is a theme that provokes passionate debate. The causes may include the appalling level of training, and the absence of qualified non-commissioned officers.

But the result is that families go to extraordinary lengths to help their sons avoid military service.

As a consequence of this, the army is full of what one Russian publication recently described as "the stupid, the sick and the criminal".

Some Russian researchers suggest historical factors in trying to explain why the state apparently tolerates this.

New stance

They point to the Russian army's comparatively late abolition - in the early 20th century - of corporal punishment. Sometimes it was so severe that its outcome was fatal.

In addition, researchers highlight the legacy of Stalinism. Not only did it kill millions, but it also cemented, at a political level, the subservience of the ruled to their rulers.

There are Russian sociologists who say this historical legacy may underpin the attitudes of many modern Russians. In particular, the widespread acceptance that they need to be governed by a strong hand, with the implicit threat of force, to stay in order.

Over recent months, the Russian authorities have demonstrated a new intolerance for those trying to independently tackle bullying in the army.

Yet, according to human rights groups, they have made little - if any - serious effort to deal with the problem themselves.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3760552.stm

Nicola_Canadian
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 07:12 AM
Torture and Rape: Russian military traditions?...


When would this mentally sick anti-russian movement finish here???

Vingolf
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 10:44 AM
When would this mentally sick anti-russian movement finish here???

Could you be more specific?

Lissu
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 11:03 AM
When would this mentally sick anti-russian movement finish here???Why speaking about these issues are anti-Russian, or sick by default? It's nothing but healthy to speak about horrible things and admit they really happen.

Russians are proven to abuse even babies sexually (and no, in the case of so called partisans in the north-west part of Russia we cannot say these were Asiatic Soviets). So why not raping Chechens can happen?
It's a wrong whether the victims were Muslims or not.

Euclides
Wednesday, January 31st, 2007, 01:34 PM
Actually I don't think there's much Mongol ancestry in Russians, (...). But what Muscovites inherited from the Mongols was their way of ruling and psychology. (...). Russian pychology is not European, and thus Russia will never be a part of Europe the same way countries from Russia to west are. .




HUNNISH BLOOD ENTERS EASTERN EUROPE

'' By this stage the Huns had started on a limited scale to physically integrate with sections of the peoples they had conquered. Traces of the Mongolian influence can still be seen amongst some peoples in eastern Europe (the so called "Slavic look" which in fact is not Slavic at all, but mixed Mongolian/Slavic.) ''



''The non-White terror: Asiatics, known as Huns, attacked the easternmost White tribes, the Alans, in 372 AD. Quickly annihilating the Alans, they marched east forcing the squabbling Whites - Romans, Germans and Goths - in Europe to unite and face the communal racial threat. An overt race war, fought across Europe, then followed, with the Huns being defeated at Troyes in central France and at Nedao in Central Europe. White Europe was nearly extinguished by this threat - above is a depiction of a scene which befell hundreds of thousands of Whites - a raiding non-White party attack a Roman villa, killing the males and carrying off the White women for sexual slavery.''

(see figure).


ATILLA SLAUGHTERS WHITES IN NORTHERN ITALY - ORIGINS OF VENICE

'' Defeated in the west, Atilla made one last attempt to destroy the Whites. In 452 the Asians invaded northern Italy and razed the city of Aqueila to the ground, massacring as many of the inhabitants as they could find (the survivors fled into the nearby marshes, there to later establish the city of Venice).

Suddenly in 453 AD, the 60 year old Atilla died - allegedly of a burst blood vessel incurred during his wedding night exertions following his marriage to a local German princess (how much of that story is true is open to question: what is fact is that he took a blond German girl, named Hildico, as his wife, following an example set by many of his Mongolian warriors, whose genetic footprint can be seen on some faces in eastern Europe and Russia to this day.) ''

taked from March of titans - Chapter 18 ( not a very good source, but can illustrate the situation )