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catchmeifyoukhan
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 10:48 PM
During the end of the Dark ages, artist representation of woman idealise women with large and round foreheads. This is especially the case with the gothic style. Between the 12th and the 15th centuries and even the 16th century, paintings and sculptures represent men and women with large heads (proportionally to the body which is rather thin and gracile) with a small oval face of nordic or subnordic type and with very large steep and rounded foreheads.

This representation has led to a fashion among women whereby, the larger the front, the more beautiful is the woman. Some women used to shave the top of their foreheads in order to resemble this ideal type. Where does this fashion stems from ? Since this type was mostly vehicled with the development of the gothic style, one may conjecture that this was inspired by the same philosophy than that of the gothic style. In the same manner than the gothic churches were elevated with elliptic arches pointing to Heaven, large foreheads might have been favoured for the alleged spiritual qualities that their owners may have.

Still nowadays large foreheads are assumed to be the characteristic of elevated souls or, at least, of intellectuals. In these times, moral integrity seems to have been a more selective criteria for mating than sensuality or muscular strength. Dark ages, were a time of spiritual mobilisation (more than 10% of the population of Europe were clericals either monks or priests) and hence, a change may have occur within the population without involving any exterior input.

These values and the subsequent preference for large foreheads may have been at work only in the countries where the gothic style and the aesthetic values that accompany it were prevalent, that is to say France, Belgium the Rhine and Donau Valleys, southern England, northern Italy and northern Spain. As a conclusion, esthetical selection factor, could be added to the traditionally invoked explanation of the alpinisation process, such as the mildening of the climate during the Mesolithic and the subsequent undermortality among gracilised UPs, the intermarriage between pentagonal UPs and egg shaped mediterraneans during the Neolithic, or overmortality among dolichocephal warriors during the dark ages.

catchmeifyoukhan
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 11:58 PM
I add a picture of Agnes Sorel (1422-1450), the favorite of King of France Charles VII. Most representations of this "dame de beauté" show a mix of reduced borreby, maybe sub-nordish and alpinid traits. They are reinforced by the elevated hairdress that emphasizes the forehead.

If not possible to click on the picture, you may click on : http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://perso.wanadoo.fr/monglane/images/archives/secret_des_runes/agnes_sorel.jpg&imgrefurl=http://perso.wanadoo.fr/monglane/archives_secret_des_runes.htm&h=452&w=400&sz=25&tbnid=JC9eqQu0k5kJ:&tbnh=123&tbnw=109&start=12&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522agnes%2Bsorel%2522%26s vnum%3D100%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3Dlang_en%26sa %3DN

william_russellsb
Friday, February 11th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Agnes Sorel looks Anglo-Saxon to me. Her surname (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/famcarte.cgi?numero=0036292&periode=1&client=carte) is frequent in the former Norman territory (http://genealogy.dutton.net/images/map_normans.gif) area and is thought to derive from a nickname given to those who had golden-reddish or chestnut hair (http://www.jtosti.com/noms/s5.htm). She had ash-blonde hair (http://www.37-online.net/histoire/personnes/sorel.html). She was probably of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, hence her legendary beauty.

catchmeifyoukhan
Friday, February 11th, 2005, 10:10 PM
Agnes Sorel looks Anglo-Saxon to me. Her surname (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/famcarte.cgi?numero=0036292&periode=1&client=carte) is frequent in the former Norman territory (http://genealogy.dutton.net/images/map_normans.gif) area and is thought to derive from a nickname given to those who had golden-reddish or chestnut hair (http://www.jtosti.com/noms/s5.htm). She had ash-blonde hair (http://www.37-online.net/histoire/personnes/sorel.html). She was probably of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, hence her legendary beauty.

Well, I admit that the first picture I posted shows a rather undifferentiated face, except for the forehead, which is wide and, hence, tends towards brachicephaly. My thread is more an attempt to demonstrate that, during the Dark ages, there was a fashion tending to emphazise on the width of the forehead that may help explaining the brachicephalisation process of some nordic population in northern France and central Europe.

But in the link you kindly provided in your last post, there is another portrait of Agnes which is definitely alpinid. Rather northern alpinid, due to the foetalization of a previously nordic, borreby or anglo-saxon type, but nevertheless alpinid with it's wide and rounded forehead (but not law face) shallow jaw, rounded eyes which suggest some mediterranean accretion ... etc. By the way, Agnes parents were from the Touraine, which is currently mostly alpinid. Thanks for the link you provided in your post. I did'nt knew that when the rests of Agnes Sorel were ungraved they were found naturally desiccated.

william_russellsb
Saturday, February 12th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Ash-blonde Alpines is rather uncommon. I did not even know it could exist.

QuietWind
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 01:35 AM
Ash-blonde Alpines is rather uncommon. I did not even know it could exist.


Maybe uncommon, but why couldn't it exist? Perhaps not in a pure Alpine, but don't you think it could be possible in maybe an Alpine/Nordish type mix?

SouthernBoy
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 03:57 AM
Blonde hair and blue eyes can accompany nearly any European phenotype. It is just more prominent in Nordid types and their intermediaries.

nordic_canadian_male
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 05:57 AM
Well, I admit that the first picture I posted shows a rather undifferentiated face, except for the forehead, which is wide and, hence, tends towards brachicephaly. My thread is more an attempt to demonstrate that, during the Dark ages, there was a fashion tending to emphazise on the width of the forehead that may help explaining the brachicephalisation process of some nordic population in northern France and central Europe.

Very Intresting idea, i'm sure quite a few men choose a wife with these features, but I don't think this would've influenced the whole population much. The alpinisation process I believe was driven by a sedentary lifestyle, numerous wars which depleted progressive racial types, and fertility rate/one wife per man.

Sedentary life although stable and comfortable is not suited for more progressively evolved humans such as nordids/atlantids etc. These types are more idealist, individualistic, daring, a sedentary lifestyle for these types takes the form of prison in a way. Trapped in a lifestyle which most people for the most part never travelled farther than 50 miles from their original birth place would cause a dis-proportionate drainage of nordic blood into more precarious ventures. Both into the military, and of course in more solemn, solely careers. These types need a more adventurous life, much like that of a mobile people, such as the early germans, or perhaps the nomadic life of the eurasian nordic tribes to have fullfilment and to appease their lust for life.

As more progressive types joined the armies europe in a time where war was a common as rain, the deaths of these more suited men opened the way for foetalization. Less dolicephalic, physicallt gifted men began to re-emerge in the genetic sense, causing the process called alpinisation.

With nordic men dying on the battlefields of europe, the combination of a sedentary lifestyle, one wife per man, europe began to evolve a more stable less energetic type, suited for every day work and to be obedient. In the end alpinisations worst crime was not making europeans less physically athletic, but destroying it's untamed heart.

catchmeifyoukhan
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 04:14 PM
As more progressive types joined the armies europe in a time where war was a common as rain, the deaths of these more suited men opened the way for foetalization. Less dolicephalic, physicallt gifted men began to re-emerge in the genetic sense, causing the process called alpinisation.
QUOTE]

I fully agree, this is probably the main explanation of the increase of the alpinid type at the expense of the nordic types during the Dark ages. But where does this alpinid type comes from, originally ? This is a great mystery. It has appeared and disapperared several times during the history. Some "para alpinid" skulls were discovered at Ofnet in Bavaria and were dated mesolitic. Some are to be found in France during the neolitic, very distinguishable from the then atlanto mediterranean majority. Some appear again during the bronze age, but of another type, brought by the beaker folks. Last, there is this famous Dark Age brachicephalisation phenomenum. Coon suggests that most of these alpinids are foetalised UPs. I would extend this proposition to foetalised classical nordics. There, sexual selection may be at work. By that time, only 3/4 th of women could procreate, the remaining were left either to isolation or to convents. Women used to mary late (about 26). I guess, that those who didn't pass the mating examination, were excluded for either psychological or physical unattractivity. The width of the forehead, or even of the face, could have been one of these criteria of sexual selection.Agricultural robusticity might be an explanation, but aesthetic reasons are also strong motivations. Today, since the 70s, there is a tendancy to emphasize slimness and dolicocephalic types, and this could help explain the recent come back of dolichocephaly.

Let's summarize : while dolichocephalic nordic men were left on battle grounds, their females might have themselves been excluded from marriage because of their thinner shaped body and face.

Triglav
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Very Intresting idea, i'm sure quite a few men choose a wife with these features, but I don't think this would've influenced the whole population much. The alpinisation process I believe was driven by a sedentary lifestyle, numerous wars which depleted progressive racial types, and fertility rate/one wife per man.

Sedentary life although stable and comfortable is not suited for more progressively evolved humans such as nordids/atlantids etc. These types are more idealist, individualistic, daring, a sedentary lifestyle for these types takes the form of prison in a way. Trapped in a lifestyle which most people for the most part never travelled farther than 50 miles from their original birth place would cause a dis-proportionate drainage of nordic blood into more precarious ventures. Both into the military, and of course in more solemn, solely careers. These types need a more adventurous life, much like that of a mobile people, such as the early germans, or perhaps the nomadic life of the eurasian nordic tribes to have fullfilment and to appease their lust for life.

As more progressive types joined the armies europe in a time where war was a common as rain, the deaths of these more suited men opened the way for foetalization. Less dolicephalic, physicallt gifted men began to re-emerge in the genetic sense, causing the process called alpinisation.

With nordic men dying on the battlefields of europe, the combination of a sedentary lifestyle, one wife per man, europe began to evolve a more stable less energetic type, suited for every day work and to be obedient. In the end alpinisations worst crime was not making europeans less physically athletic, but destroying it's untamed heart.
Then again, these (or rather the opposite) factors do not accompany the current trend of debrachycephalisation.

nordic_canadian_male
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Then again, these (or rather the opposite) factors do not accompany the current trend of debrachycephalisation.

When coon coined the term alpine, european height was still very much stunted. We're at this point dealing with something never before seen racially. We have many mesocephalic alpines but this doesn't mean that nordic types have made a comeback, alpines have just become less extreme. foetalization brought on by enviromental factors such as diet are being reversed by the protein rich/mineral rich diet of today. If you walk outside in toronto were I live you can count on the fingers of a single hand the amount of purely nordid types you see on the streets downtown. The nordic race is on the verge of death. If you look at the stature of today you'll see a drastic increase of course but then look at the frequency of blonde hair and light eyes which reveals what is really occuring.

SouthernBoy
Sunday, February 13th, 2005, 10:03 PM
If the debracycephalization continues the Alpinization process will reverse into one which will turn Alpinids into robust Cro-Magnids again. I don't know whether or not this will benefit the Nordid types at all though.

Triglav
Monday, February 14th, 2005, 12:15 AM
When coon coined the term alpine, european height was still very much stunted. We're at this point dealing with something never before seen racially. We have many mesocephalic alpines but this doesn't mean that nordic types have made a comeback, alpines have just become less extreme. foetalization brought on by enviromental factors such as diet are being reversed by the protein rich/mineral rich diet of today.
I was merely cautioning again a monodimensional portrayal of these processes.

I largely agree with your assessment.


If you walk outside in toronto were I live you can count on the fingers of a single hand the amount of purely nordid types you see on the streets downtown. The nordic race is on the verge of death. If you look at the stature of today you'll see a drastic increase of course but then look at the frequency of blonde hair and light eyes which reveals what is really occuring.
Blondism and "Nordidness" are two separate things.

Euclides
Saturday, February 19th, 2005, 07:17 PM
Well, I admit that the first picture I posted shows a rather undifferentiated face, except for the forehead, which is wide and, hence, tends towards brachicephaly. My thread is more an attempt to demonstrate that, during the Dark ages, there was a fashion tending to emphazise on the width of the forehead that may help explaining the brachicephalisation process of some nordic population in northern France and central Europe.

.


This paints made by Leonardo da Vinci can be usefull to ilustrate your thread..

Euclides
Saturday, February 19th, 2005, 07:56 PM
by Rafaello :

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, February 19th, 2005, 10:51 PM
This paints made by Leonardo da Vinci can be usefull to ilustrate your thread..
The first one is typically nordic, of that particular type brought by Lombards and ostrogoths, i.e. Halstatt nordics, maybe slightly norics, with the famous venetian blond hair shade. The best portrayer of these nordic types during the renaissance, was Boticelli. Strangely, Northern Italy is more alpinid than northern France, but it's painters almost only promoted the nordic type. But this was during the renaissance, when the religious values of the Dark ages were blured by the more pagan values of the quatrocento.

The second portrait is indeed typically alpinid, half way between the mediterranean and the north, with brachicephally at work. I would say that this is a realistic portrait, which is not exagerated towards large foreheads. In fact the large forehead fits harmonuously with the rest of the face, whereas, in Agnes sorel case, as you can see on the picture I posted at the beginning of this thread, the forehead is a bit enormous compared to the rest of the face.

BlessedGoddess
Thursday, June 23rd, 2011, 12:04 PM
Ash-blonde Alpines is rather uncommon. I did not even know it could exist.



There are blondes in the Bavarian alps. Just tricky to find.:)