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Axelrod
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 02:52 PM
Terminology wise Arab is ethnic, Semite is linguistic, Orientalid is anthrophologic. There is no such biologic terms such as a Semitic race/blood nor a Jewish race. Jewish is another ethnic/religious term. It may be discussed the degree of purity among the Jews, but yet no nation/ethnic group is biologically a race itself. Every ethnic group is made of several subraces and its not any different with Jews.

In their case it might be said that they as a whole predominantly display the traits of northern parts of middle east as a fusion of several Mediterranean types, Armenoid, Orientalid, Irano Afghan and Nordic to a much lower extent. Also with European Jews a danubian/east baltic element along with some additional Nordic is present due conversions etc. It may be said that European Jews are predominantly Armenoid/Atlantid while Oriental Jews tend to display Irano Agfhan/Orientalid along with significant Armenoid. Some studies also indicated about 2% non caucasoid genes in total percentage of Sub Saharan and Mongoloid haplotypes, parallel to other Mesopothamian/Near eastern groups.

Although I have observed that whenever word Semite is implied as a racial term, its often the Negroid mixed southern Arab stock that is referred to, which is not really the case with Jews. Semitic on this aspect is a language family that is primarily spoken by Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Maltese and was spoken by the ancient cultures of Babylonians, Phoenicians etc. and is not relevant as a racial term.

Aistulf
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:21 PM
Terminology wise Arab is ethnic, Semite is linguistic, Orientalid is anthrophologic. There is no such biologic terms such as a Semitic race/blood nor a Jewish race. Jewish is another ethnic/religious term. It may be discussed the degree of purity among the Jews, but yet no nation/ethnic group is biologically a race itself. Every ethnic group is made of several subraces and its not any different with Jews. Semites are an ethnic group, Jews just aren't but rather a people.



Although I have observed that whenever word Semite is implied as a racial term, its often the Negroid mixed southern Arab stock that is referred to, which is not really the case with Jews. You mean Yemeni's? Or are you making a distinction between, say, North-Africans (Maghrebians) and Middle-Eastern Arabs?


Discussing this item with you is useless;///Please refrain from Ad hominems - FJ:|///

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:25 PM
Semites are an ethnic group, Jews just aren't but rather a people.

I think you need to learn the definition of ethnicity.

Aistulf
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:27 PM
I think you need to learn the definition of ethnicity.
Do I? Besides, Coon is not the only anthropologist in the world.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:31 PM
Do I?

I said it because you dont know the definition of an ethnic group, and Semitic isnt the name of an ethnic group. Its used in linguistics, and it shouldnt be confused with ethnicity.

Aistulf
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:38 PM
I said it because you dont know the definition of an ethnic group, and Semitic isnt the name of an ethnic group. Its used in linguistics, and it shouldnt be confused with ethnicity.


Semitic Genetics

With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists have traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.

The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.

Jews, Palestinians, and Syrians share a genetic link.

Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago.

Dr. Lawrence H. Schiffman, chairman of the department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University, said the study fit with historical evidence that Jews originated in the Near East and with biblical evidence suggesting that there were a variety of families and types in the original population. He said the finding would cause "a lot of discussion of the relationship of scientific evidence to the manner in which we evaluate long-held academic and personal religious positions," like the question of who is a Jew.

The study, reported in today's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, was conducted by Dr. Michael F. Hammer of the University of Arizona with colleagues in the United States, Italy, Israel, England and South Africa. The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism.

The analysis by Dr. Hammer and colleagues is based on the Y chromosome, which is passed unchanged from father to son. Early in human evolution, all but one of the Y chromosomes were lost as their owners had no children or only daughters, so that all Y chromosomes today are descended from that of a single genetic Adam who is estimated to have lived about 140,000 years ago.

In principle, all men should therefore carry the identical sequence of DNA letters on their Y chromosomes, but in fact occasional misspellings have occurred, and because each misspelling is then repeated in subsequent generations, the branching lineages of errors form a family tree rooted in the original Adam.

These variant spellings are in DNA that is not involved in the genes and therefore has no effect on the body. But the type and abundance of the lineages in each population serve as genetic signature by which to compare different populations.

Based on these variations, Dr. Hammer identified 19 variations in the Y chromosome family tree.

The ancestral Middle East population from which both Arabs and Jews are descended was a mixture of men from eight of these lineages.

Among major contributors to the ancestral Arab-Jewish population were men who carried what Dr. Hammer calls the "Med" lineage. This Y chromosome is found all round the Mediterranean and in Europe and may have been spread by the Neolithic inventors of agriculture or perhaps by the voyages of sea-going people like the Phoenicians.

Another lineage common in the ancestral Arab-Jewish gene pool is found among today's Ethiopians and may have reached the Middle East by men who traveled down the Nile. But present-day Ethiopian Jews lack some of the other lineages found in Jewish communities, and overall are more like non-Jewish Ethiopians than other Jewish populations, at least in terms of their Y chromosome lineage pattern.

The ancestral pattern of lineages is recognizable in today's Arab and Jewish populations, but is distinct from that of European populations and both groups differ widely from sub-Saharan Africans.

Each Arab and Jewish community has its own flavor of the ancestral pattern, reflecting their different genetic histories. Roman Jews have a pattern quite similar to that of Ashkenazis, the Jewish community of Eastern Europe. Dr. Hammer said the finding accorded with the hypothesis that Roman Jews were the ancestors of the Ashkenazis.

Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.

On the assumption that there have been 80 generations since the founding of the Ashkenazi population, Dr. Hammer and colleagues calculate that the rate of genetic admixture with Europeans has been less than half a percent per generation.

Jewish law tracing back almost 2,000 years states that Jewish affiliation is determined by maternal ancestry, so the Y chromosome study addresses the question of how much non-Jewish men may have contributed to Jewish genetic diversity.

Dr. Hammer was surprised to find how little that contribution was.

"It could be that wherever Jews were, they were very much isolated," he said. The close genetic affinity between Jews and Arabs, at least by the Y chromosome yardstick, is reflected in the Genesis account of how Abraham fathered Ishmael by his wife's maid Hagar and, when Sarah was then able to conceive, Isaac. Although Muslims have a different version of the story, they regard Abraham and Ishmael, or Ismail, as patriarchs just as Jews do Abraham and Isaac.

- Nicholas Wade, New York Times May 2000

[Source (http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/semiticGenetics.html)]

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:46 PM
I dont see what this has to do with the definition of ethnicity, Alboin. Semitic isn't the name of an ethnicity.

Oskorei
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 07:48 PM
Ok, so we have ethnic groups, linguistic groups, and racial groups.

An ethnic group is usually defined as a nation; a group of people that feel that they are connected. Sometimes this feeling is a bit illusory, there are Jews who are racially partially Negroid and some who are more Nordid, but they all define themselves as Jews. So, Jews is an ethnicity.

A linguistic group is related languages. The Semitic languages are such a group (Hebrew and Maltese and some more). Some Jews speak a Germanic language called Yiddisch, and/or English though. Semites are not an ethnic group, it is the speakers of a family of languages.

A racial group is biologically defined. I am unsure whether most Jews would be Orientalids, Afro-Asians or Europids (since Arabids are Europid). Most ethnic groups contain racial, or sub-racial, variety though. The Hallstatt Swede regards the UP Swede as his brother, just to take one example.

Anyway, the three concepts should be used carefully. And on top of this we have religious groups. I think one thing that makes Jews so "mistrusted" in the world, is that they don't really follow the "rules" of ethnicity, race, religion and language. What is a Jew, really? The answer is not clear-cut, and that is one of the things that make them seem suspicious.

Aistulf
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 08:35 PM
(since Arabids are Europid)
Please tell me you're kidding!

Oh and, "Arabids" :roll

Siegfried
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 08:35 PM
I dont see what this has to do with the definition of ethnicity, Alboin. Semitic isn't the name of an ethnicity.

What about 'Germanic'? :)

Frans_Jozef
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:00 PM
Semetic and Germanic are "extended ethnicities", a cultural-linguistic Zeugungskreis where the will to form nationhood is absent and rather theoretically made apparent.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:08 PM
What about 'Germanic'? :)

North-west and Central Europeans have always had a sort of common nationhood, as is shown by the assimilation of the settlers from Scandinavia in Britain which was possible because of the shared values and attitudes of the British and Scandinavians. But it doesnt conform to the Germanic language group, it includes speakers of other languages, such as the Celtic languages.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:10 PM
Semetic and Germanic are "extended ethnicities", a cultural-linguistic Zeugungskreis where the will to form nationhood is absent and rather theoretically made apparent.

Its true that neither Germanic nor Semitic are ethnic groups, however such a tendency to ethnic unity is historically present between Germanics.

Frans_Jozef
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:15 PM
Its true that neither Germanic nor Semitic are ethnic groups, however such a tendency to ethnic unity is historically present between Germanics.
In zoologese transcription ethnicity could be compared to clade, while meta-ethnicity is a grade or species.;)

Oskorei
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:21 PM
Please tell me you're kidding!

Oh and, "Arabids" :roll
I promise, Arabid may sound like something from Star Wars ("there is a rabid man in the starship"), but it is a subrace ;)

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5871&page=2&pp=20

And if I am not very mistaken, pure Arabids belong to the Europid race.

Oskorei
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:26 PM
North-west and Central Europeans have always had a sort of common nationhood, as is shown by the assimilation of the settlers from Scandinavia in Britain which was possible because of the shared values and attitudes of the British and Scandinavians. But it doesnt conform to the Germanic language group, it includes speakers of other languages, such as the Celtic languages.
Here in the Northeast, it also includes Finns and the various Baltic ethnicities. I think it's due to shared history (religion, being the small neighbours of big Russia for so long, and also being part of the same state during Swedens era as a Great Power).

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:26 PM
In zoologese transcription ethnicity could be compared to clade, while meta-ethnicity is a grade or species.;)

Actually an ethnicity wouldnt compare to a clade, a clade would need to unite seperate units.

The idea of using language to define ethnicity is a recent idea which doesnt work in the real world. I do agree with you that theres an extended sense of ethnicity in northern Europe but it doesnt fit with Germanic languages and it was in existence before the Germanic expansion. And no such extended ethnicity exists in West Asia.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:29 PM
And if I am not very mistaken, pure Arabids belong to the Europid race.

You can consider Arabids to be the same as Orientalids are, although Lundman included Assyrids in his Arabid.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:39 PM
Here in the Northeast, it also includes Finns and the various Baltic ethnicities. I think it's due to shared history (religion, being the small neighbours of big Russia for so long, and also being part of the same state during Swedens era as a Great Power).

Yes, theres a sense of ethnic continuity through a shared history and a shared culture.

Frans_Jozef
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=atlanto-med]Actually an ethnicity wouldnt compare to a clade, a clade would need to unite seperate units.
Population/Folk stocks within a determined spaciality made up by different composites leading to more or less homogenic Gau Typus through assortative mating in whom various elements in an new and exclusive order or arrangment become established.

A clade unites seperate units, but they underscore features and patterns of a unique character in a given territory and continious in time.

Frans_Jozef
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 10:19 PM
You can consider Arabids to be the same as Orientalids are, although Lundman included Assyrids in his Arabid.
Assyrids are like Berids relate to the West Mediterrenean race, a broader and more primitive sister race.

I wonder if Assyroids have a broader, snubbed nose, in stead of recurring to Armenid admixture in Orientalids to explain a certain broadening of the nose tip in this race, it might well be a reduced frequency of an ancestral trait that in contrast typifies the Assyroids.

Where's Volksdeutscher, our-specialist-of-the-house in all things Lundman, when we need him!:D