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Vlad
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 03:20 PM
I've heard them mentioned in several articles I've read but all the information about them is vague. I would like if someone could give me more information about these people (don't give me a link but explain in your own words), I would like to know things such as who they were, where they lived, what they did, and who their decendents are.

Azdaja
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 03:54 PM
The bell-beaker people were a pre-Indo-European culture existing in western Europe prior to the Iron-Age.
Coon believed them to be racially Dinaric, and to have moved eastwards from Spain.
Gunther did not outright call them Dinaric (that I am aware of), but seemed to imply it somewhat.

From what I've read, most modern Anthropologists actually consider the Bell-Beaker folk to have originated in the east, and to have migrated west, placing them in the IE matrix rather than as a rival culture.
According to one source I've read, the Bell-Beakers 'evolved' into the Urnfielders, who then 'evolved' into the Hallstatts (the Hallstatt culture, not necessarily the race - though of course the two are tied together).

Loki
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 04:45 PM
The bell-beaker people were most probably Indo-European themselves, and the first Indo-Europeans to venture as far westwards as Britain. We know their culture existed from specific pottery they used, which were found throughout western Europe and southern Britain. Let me quote Colin McEvedy, an expert on European history and prehistory, from his work of 1967:


.. the similarly wide distribution attained by bell-beaker pottery at a period not long after this [the spreading of megalithic tombs] has long been taken to indicate the spread of a distinct people. The standardized equipment of the bell-beaker graves forces one to accept this, but when one considers the direction of the movement, one enters an area of controversy. The bell-beaker folk march convincingly in every prehistorian’s text, but they do so from Spain to Germany in some and from Germany to Spain in others, while lately there has been a tendency to make them go from Spain to Germany and back again (primary and reflux movements). The only firm datum seems to be that the British beaker folk came from the Rhine-Elbe region and not from Brittany, which favours the westward interpretation. The main reason for taking an exclusively westward view, however, is that the bell-beaker distribution map resembles the Celto-Ligurian world of a millennium later too exactly for coincidence, and, if the equation of beaker-folk with Celto-Ligurians is accepted, the expansion must have been westward, from the Indo-European zone.

There are skeletal finds, and those deserve special attention since they reflect on the racial type of the beaker-folk. I shall not go into that in this post.

Vlad, the descendants of these people would be everywhere over central and western Europe, and in Britain. All very much in dilution, of course.

Vlad
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 06:02 PM
If they were dinaric how could they be the ancestors of the hallstats? Or does this mean the dinarics have been around before the nordics? This is confusing to me since so many sources disagree with each other, and for every bit of info I find there seems to be more info claiming the opposite. One source claims that all white people were originally nordic and all non-nordic white people (eg alpines, dinarics, etc) are a product of nordics mixing with non-whites. Could that be true?

If the Bell Beakers were the first IE people to reach Britain, does that mean they were also the first humans to reach Britain, or did a non-IE people reach Britain before them?

Sorry if some questions are a bit dumb but I've not done much reading about ancient history, but now that I've been reading about it I find it's much more fascinating than I thought. Hopefully very soon I will be a lot more knowledgeable about this subject. I just found a very long article on the net which mentions the Bell Beaker people a lot and I am going read it right now.

Loki
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Vlad

If the Bell Beakers were the first IE people to reach Britain, does that mean they were also the first humans to reach Britain, or did a non-IE people reach Britain before them?

No, not by a long shot. Upper Paleolithic cultures had been in Britain since at least 8500 B.C. Since around more or less 4500 B.C, there had arrived Mesolithic cultures in Britain from southwestern Europe. They were Western Mediterranean, related to the Iberians of Spain. The first Indo-European additions to Britain were probably what is known as the Windmill Hill culture, from around 2750 B.C. This culture was more scattered and not so widespread as the later bell-beaker. So we generally accept the bell-beaker as the first significant I-E contribution to Britain.

Azdaja
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Vlad
If they were dinaric how could they be the ancestors of the hallstats?

The Bell Beaker culture may have been the ancestor of the Hallstatt Culture. "Bell Beaker" and "Hallstatt" in this usage are cultures, not racial groups.


Originally posted by Vlad
Or does this mean the dinarics have been around before the nordics?

It depends on whose theories you follow. If you follow Coon, then yes. But if you believe the Nordic race is UP derived, then maybe not.


Originally posted by Vlad
This is confusing to me since so many sources disagree with each other, and for every bit of info I find there seems to be more info claiming the opposite. One source claims that all white people were originally nordic and all non-nordic white people (eg alpines, dinarics, etc) are a product of nordics mixing with non-whites. Could that be true?

It is extremely confusing to me as well. Trust me, you are not alone. If there is one thing I've learned since beginning to look into this stuff a few months ago, it's that almost nothing is definitively known about prehistoric humanity.
As to this 'theory' that all whites were nordics and other subtypes are the result of race-mixing:
I've never come across anything like that - ever.


Originally posted by Vlad
If the Bell Beakers were the first IE people to reach Britain, does that mean they were also the first humans to reach Britain, or did a non-IE people reach Britain before them?

Loki nailed that one. I agree 100%


Originally posted by Vlad
Sorry if some questions are a bit dumb but I've not done much reading about ancient history, but now that I've been reading about it I find it's much more fascinating than I thought. Hopefully very soon I will be a lot more knowledgeable about this subject. I just found a very long article on the net which mentions the Bell Beaker people a lot and I am going read it right now.

No, it's no problem! I wish we had more posters like you, that are genuinely interested in this type of thing.
Your best bet is to get ahold of any books/essays written by physical anthropologists who focus on Europid types - and study them!
You can find some stuff by Coon and a few others here:
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm
There is also a site (somewhere) with an online edition of one of Gunthers books. I forget the address though!
A good book on IE culture is "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" by JP Mallory. Colin McEvedy, whom Loki mentioned, is also very good. Marija Gimbutas is a leading author/researcher in the field of pre-IE Europe (some of her theories are weird, though).
There is also a book floating around out there called "The Beaker Folk" by Richard Harrison. The National Alliance used to sell it in their catalogue, but when I tried to order it, they wrote back saying the book was out of print and they had no more copies left!
If you can find that one, let me know where you got it!

Also, search through this board. Some of the people here are really knowledgeable. Everything I know about Lundmans theories (which is not alot...yet, but still) is thanks to Volksdeutsche. He can give you lots of info.
NorthStar is also very knowledgeable about physical anthropology. He does not post much anymore, unfortunately. But do a site search using his name as the keyword.
Those are the 2 that come to mind immediately, but there are others. Just soak up whatever info you can.

Loki
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 08:03 PM
John R Baker made some comments on the racial type and distribution of the Beaker Folk. He is the author of the well-known book Race, which appeared in 1974.

This quote from chapter 15 of Race:


At or near the beginning of the Bronze Age a very distinct new type appeared. These “Beaker Folk” were taller, markedly brachycranial, and broad-faced, with rather wide noses. It seems impossible to place them with confidence in any of the existing subraces, though they were certainly Europids, and they have been regarded by some authorities as Dinarids. The evidence from the round barrows of the Bronze Age suggests that they intermarried to some extent with their Neolithic forerunners, to produce at last a hybrid type having a skull strangely similar to that of the Iron Age invaders (Celtae and Belgae), though differing from it in the greater height of the cranium and wider face.

It is often supposed that the Celtae and Belgae almost exterminated and replaced the population over a considerable part of Britain. It seems more probable, however, that Mediterranids and Mediterranid/Beaker Folk hybrids survived to form part of the modern British population, though the unhybridized descendants of the Celtae and Belgae continued to predominate greatly in certain places, especially the south-eastern part of England.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 05:48 PM
Below is a link dealing with Bell Beakers skull shape.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Glenlivet
Monday, December 1st, 2003, 07:53 PM
Also read The Bronze Age in Britain (http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V8.htm)

It is interesting to read about the Keltic Nordic from Coon's chapter (XI, section 17) on the Basques in The Races of Europe : "The Keltic Iron Age racial type of Britain, which the living Spanish Basques so closely resemble, was produced originally in southern Germany from a combination of Nordics with Bell Beaker or other Dinarics, and imported into England where Mediterranean and Atlanto Mediterranean elements, as well as some Bronze Age Dinaric factors, were already present."

Another passage that might be important for us is the from Chapter VI, section, The Kelts:

"Keltic cranial material from the southwest German center of Keltic development is surprisingly scarce. Schliz has described six skulls, and notices of three others have appeared in more recent publications.29 Of these nine, one is dolichocephalic, four are mesocephalic, and four are brachycephalic. Although this small group is far from sufficient to disclose the racial type of the Kelts in their homeland, it is enough to show us that a round-headed element played a considerable part in the development of this ethnic group. The brachycephals involved are large headed and powerfully built, with long faces, and rather high orbits; the foreheads are sloping and only slightly bowed at the junction of the facial and cranial planes. The inference is that these brachycephals were derived from the older combination of Bell Beaker and Borreby types which was formed in the upper Rhine country at the beginning of the age of metal, and which persisted into the Hallstatt period. These seem to have mixed with the expected intrusive Nordics. We must really wait until we examine larger series of Keltic crania from elsewhere, however, before passing judgment on the final result of this blend."

Long faces, high orbits and sloping foreheads are of course charcteristics for his Keltic Nordic type. So the SNPA interpretation is not far from Coon's own ideas.

Coon also mentioned an absorption of "Borreby blood":

"Later the Bell Beaker people used the mouth of the Rhine as a route of entry into southern Germany, and also as a point of departure for Britain. It is likely that some, at least, of the Borreby blood which the Bell Beaker people absorbed before their departure for England came from this source."

Chapter XII, section 4) The Netherlands and Frisia

This suggest that the Dinarid can be a facially Mediterranid (in the broader usage of the word, high-skulled and eastern in origin) type with a non-Mediterranid component, e.g. Alpinid (Coon also mention that Borreby, Corded and Nordic appear to be involved in some regions).

Julian Huxley (1935) also mentioned the characteristic high vault and prominent browridges of the Bell Beaker people.

Coon's Nordid include Bell Beaker Dinarid absorption besides the Corded-Danubian Aunjetitz blend.

Lundman describe them the Bell Beaker (klockbägare) people as Dinarid. Furthermore, he see the Karpathids as a parallel case of proto-East-Alpinids (Gorids) in Northern Hungary mixed with Armenid metal-seekers. Also see this thread regarding the Karpathids: http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4764

The Bell Beaker Celts came around 1850 BCE. They occupied Gaul, Germany,
Britain, and Ireland. The Teutons settled in southern Norway, Sweden, and
Denmark. The Balts and Slavs pushed the Finns north and occupied some of
Germany.

The Urnfield Celts appeared around 1200 BCE in Gaul. The Teutons expanded
their occupied land to include some of Germany. The Bell Beaker Celts
still occupy Britain and Ireland.

The Hallstatt Celts appear around 560 BCE in Gaul. The Scythians push the
Eastern European people westward.

The La Tene Celts appear around 375 BCE. The Hallstatt Celts occupy
southern England, and the Bell Beaker Celts still occupy the rest of
Britain and Ireland.

The La Tene Celts occupy Gaul, Southern Germany, and England around 323
BCE. Bell Beaker Celts occupy Scotland and Ireland.

The Belgae appear around 74 BCE in northern Gaul and SE England. The
Goths move from Sweden to Denmark.

La Tene Celts occupy Scotland around 14 CE. The Teutons are recognised as
many tribes by the Romans as they threaten the borders of the Roman
Empire.

All this time, the Finns are following a nomad lifestyle the the far
North. The Vikings were Teutons and probably got their light
characteristics from interbreeding with their Finn neighbours to the
North.

Reference: "The Penguin Atlas of Ancient History" (1976) by Colin McEvedy.

I recommend the Penguin series (atlases etc.) as very reliable sources.

BELL BEAKERS Budapest (http://www.aquincum.hu/oskor/imgkobr/aharanged.html)



Below is a link dealing with Bell Beakers skull shape.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

Milesian
Monday, December 1st, 2003, 11:55 PM
http://www.mulvihill.net/genealogy/ancient/MulvihillsOfGlinANCIENT.htm

Also of interest is this website which asserts that the Fir Bolg and possibly the Picts were of the Bell Beaker people.
Interesting also is the claim that the Irish retained the purest form of haplotype representing the most ancient European populations and that the Connaught Irish retain a Neolithic marker in 98% of the population, opposed to only 89% for Basques. What are your thoughts on this, Volks?

Euclides
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 11:17 PM
http://www.comp-archaeology.org/Bellbeaker.htm

Bell Beaker

Tabitha
Saturday, October 21st, 2006, 11:51 AM
Ah, fine food, post prandial conversation, a good drink and cutting a stylish swagger through the heather. Since time immemorial,we Scots have been known for our prediliction to split our last penny between nourishing our bellies and securing a fine raiment for our backs.
Vanity? No; why we are simply listening to the clarion call of our DNA.

My Beaker people ancestors, c 2500BC, who loved personal adornments and convivial soirees, are the subject of a new joint study that started last week by Aberdeen University & Sheffield University. Five hundred thousand pounds has been set aside to breathe life into the remains of 23 skeletons unearthed during the 19th century in the North east of Scotland.

So far the aspect that has piqued my interest most is the revelation of the dietary differences between men and women. The women ate a diet rich in protein including milk, blood & animal protein whilst the men mostly subsisted on vegetation.
Burial practices show, clustered graves in cists. Men were buried facing east and women facing west. The graves contained objects valuable for the after life such as daggers, cups and sceptres.

So tonight when I'm dining out with friends and perching precariously on my vertiginous Christian Louboutin heels, I shall be content in the knowledge that I am carrying on an ancient and glamourous tradition.

Theudanaz
Saturday, October 21st, 2006, 05:18 PM
Is there a website or pdf?

Tabitha
Saturday, October 21st, 2006, 06:03 PM
Not that I know of, but they've just started, so there will probably be something up pretty soon.




Is there a website or pdf?