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Sigrun Christianson
Friday, May 23rd, 2003, 09:56 PM
You said that Scandinavians are not TRUE WHITES. I want to know how you came to this conclusion.

The truest whites I've seen yet come from Scandinavia. Perhaps you do not see the Scandinavian skin as it is, but only in conjunction with its hair color.

In the pic you post of your TRUE WHITE skinned girl, the extreme darkness of her hair sets off her skin and makes it look very, very light. Put a blond wig on her and look at her skin again.

If you took a Scandinavian girl and dyed her hair dark brown or black, her skin would appear even lighter. What you call 'tonality' may be just be juxtaposition.

Lastly, your use of ALL CAPS to emphasize the phrase TRUE WHITE is literary tonality. You used that phrase twice in your post. Your literay tone suggests that you see white Scandinavians as inferior to the TRUE WHITE Spaniards. Am I correct?

Yours,
Sigrun

Jkl
Friday, May 23rd, 2003, 11:39 PM
You imagine too many things

I didnīt say that "Scandinavians are not TRUE WHITES" and didnīt imply it either. I was talking about tonalities. The palest (whitest tone) skin I have always seen comes from brunettes with milky skin (it doesnīt matter if they are from Spain or from Ireland or Italy or wherever they are), may be your experience is different. Scandinavians and blond people usually have a light golden skin tone (that is my skin tonality also because Iīm blond and blue eyed ) or pinkish tone. So, I was talking about tonalities. I used caps to emphasize the "TRUE WHITE SKIN", ie, skin tonality, I didnīt say or imply anything else, if so, I would have said that the people with the features of that woman are the TRUE WHITE RACE. I didnīt say it, I didnīt imply it either, so you donīt have to imagine things.



If you took a Scandinavian girl and dyed her hair dark brown or black, her skin would appear even lighter. What you call 'tonality' may be just be juxtaposition.

Iīm yet to see a Scandinavian with blond hair with milkish skin. They usually have golden or pinkish skin but not literally white milkish skin (tonality).

You shouldnīt imagine things that I didnīt say or I didnīt imply.

Sigrun Christianson
Saturday, May 24th, 2003, 01:42 AM
You should be more careful and more precise with your language so that I won't have to attempt to figure you out.

And don't get a nasty attitude with me. If you post your opinion, you better prepared to defend and explain it.

-Sigrun

Zimmer Mann
Saturday, May 24th, 2003, 02:21 AM
We have to distinguish the different types of skin tonality in Europe. I'm not sure if JKL is implying that the milky white skin that completely lacks any pink or ruddyness is more purely "white" than the pinky glow of the Scando-keltic skin. Of course if he is than he is wrong. The pale brunette white skin doesn't burn or redden with sun, atmosphere, or alcohol like the nordic. Such is the case it can be described as pale, but not fair. It tends to tan and sunscreen isn't as imperative as with nordics. In fact you could say that the mediterranean complexion is a depigmented Middle Eastern where the initial brownness of unexposed skin has been removed but the tenacity towards sunlight remains.

Glenlivet
Saturday, May 24th, 2003, 10:07 AM
The most florid skin complexions coming together with hair blondism that I have ever seen are among many East Europeans, e.g. many Poles and Russians.

Fix me a drink, make it a strong one,
Hey comrade, a drink, make it a long one...

Moonlight and vodka, takes me away,
Midnight in Moscow is lunchtime in L.A...:)





Originally posted by Vanessa
I've been drinking a lot tonight and it turned my face quite red, does that make me nordic?x_hehe

Well maybe I should just drink less LOL

Glenlivet
Saturday, May 24th, 2003, 09:18 PM
I disagree. It's as much found in NW Russia and the Baltic countries. But I know that it's a sensitive subject. Perhaps you haven't seen the populations that I talk about. That would make sense.

Ruddy skin colour is not common in Sweden, and it's more common in Norway. That usually comes with red or reddish hair, which is very uncommon here, as elsewhere, but it reach 15-20 % in some folk stocks of Britain. I have already addressed the issue about the MCR1 gene and what it means for the skin colour.

There are also some very dark types in NW Europe who are not found in the Baltics at all.




Originally posted by Thorburn
North and in particular North-Western Europeans are the absolute leaders in leukoderma.

- Thorburn

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 02:03 PM
I said coming together with hair blondism.

I just think it should be N/NE Europe. I meant Britain and Ireland with NW Europe, and I didn't include the Netherlands.

I will attach some Latvian children. Pictures speak for themselves.





Originally posted by Thorburn
I still disagree, but I respect your opinion. "As much" is negotiable, though, but I believe that the lightest skin types are still to be found amongst reds in N/NW Europe. ;)

Kind regards,

- Thorburn

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 02:05 PM
A very depigmented and Nordid Latvian nurse.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 02:32 PM
A very dark Irishman, and such types are not found in northern and northeastern Europe.

He represented Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest held in Riga, Latvia yesterday night.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 02:42 PM
Ivo Etti, the bass player in the Estonian band Ruffus, who represented Estonia in the Eurovision Song Contest of 2003.

He is clearly an Aisto-Nordid type.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 02:44 PM
Another picture of Etti.

Sigrun Christianson
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 04:21 PM
Um, I did not start this thread... ?

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 04:25 PM
The Norwegian children are no different than the Latvian ones, but they are rare in Ireland and most of Britain. We could seek the source of blondism, and it's from the Battle-Axe people according to Crania Norvegica II.

So are your examples special and the Latvians are not? It doesn't make sense. I let people judge for themselves.

Dark types are rare in Russia, but common in Britain and Ireland. I might agree with you if you exclude Britain and Ireland.

Central Russia is not as ashen as Sweden, there's rufosity with red or strawberry blond hair there as well.

I have only data on the hair and eye blondism of Sweden from Nordenstreng and Lundman, and there are no such ones to compare something very difficult as if the skin is more or less vascular. So the skin pigmentation analysis is rather empirical. The only way would be to measure the reflectance of light at a specific wave lenght with a Spectrophotometer. Von Luschan's
skin colour scale is an old method which cannot show shades coming from the blood flow out of the skin vascularity.





Originally posted by Thorburn
I, however, referred to the "absolute leaders in leukoderma", and that rank clearly goes to certain reds in N/NW Europe. The condition of rufosity and the high degree of skin depigmentation that typically goes along with it, is nearly absent in NE Europe.

With N/NW Europe I refer roughly to Iceland, Ireland, the U.K., the Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark, Norway, &c.

Even combined with hair blondism, the Latvian children you posted, don't strike me as anything special, in the sense that such a degree of skin depigmentation couldn't be found in N/NW Europe, too. In fact, it is common in the U.K., the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway, &c.

And dark types exist in Poland, the Baltic States, and Northern Russia, too. Nothing new on this front.

Kind regards,

- Thorburn



Children from Norway:

Sigrun Christianson
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Hey, is anyone listening? I did not start this thread. If you're going to use my name to start a thread, I' really appreciate a heads up.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Thorburn
No, I posted them to provide evidence that there is nothing special about the degree of depigmentation of NE Europeans. It is common in N/NW Europe, too ... you can find children that light even as far down as Austria, and probably even further southwards.


I don't leave Britain and Ireland out, because they are a principal source for redheads, which are the leaders in leukoderma..

I think the degree of the depigmentation in Finland and Estonia (even Lundman thought it's the most depigmented region in the world!) is very special and it's not found in Britain at all. I have visited both places, so it's not as if I'm giving information from theory alone, like from an anthropology book from 150 years ago.

Sure, you can find it in Austria as well. I have been in the lovely city of Vienna. But such pigmentation is rare there.

I agree on the concentration of red heads in Britain and Ireland, and it's related to skin type 1, of course.



I can see from this and previous statements that your approach is different. You have obviously rather an average or the population as a whole in mind, while I aimed at the lightest representatives that can be found.

Thus, I rest my case. No further disagreements.

Thanks for taking the time to provide your as always excellent input. ;)

Kind regards,

- Thorburn


Yes, anthropology (so is biology) is mainly concerned with populations, and not individuals (but we have to show some examples and popularise matters).

Thanks for sharing your ideas as well:) .

I will attach a picture of Lena Katina (born in Moscow, Russia) in the band Tatu. I don't like what they are doing on stage, nor do I approve their sexual preference. I only want to illustrate a racial type.

Glenlivet
Sunday, May 25th, 2003, 10:18 PM
It's not a myth. It's a predominantly blond land. I talked about a specific region. Travel to Estonia or Latvia, or even St: Petersburg, Russia (but it's a city which attract different people from the country, like New York) and you shall see. Perhaps you're being a bit political. It doesn't matter that much to me, as I have seen both regions. But I just don't want people to get the wrong impression of the reality.

Most of the women on that site look light, except some few exceptions, and many are from Ukraine (which is north of the Black Sea, thus not in NE Europe), and we don't always know of their ethnicity.

Russian is also a nationality and many different ethnical groups share that huge land.





Originally posted by Thorburn
Please ... you get them even darker. The theory that NE Europe is an all-blonde/light territory is a myth.

100's of pages with NE European women:

http://www.russian-women.net/latest/

Kind regards,

- Thorburn

Loki
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by volksdeutsche
Most of the women on that site look light,

A bit off topic, I am a bit surprised that racial comparisons and classifications by men are nowadays made by looking at women :)

Of course we choose women to look at and classify, because we see a beauty and find them attractive. But this has little to do with honest anthropological research! ;) In most books about race, I found the authors have used male specimens to prove their point, since I think the male shows subracial difference probably more clearly than females.

Regards

Loki

Glenlivet
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 02:45 PM
It's an important topic. Women are said not to show all the characteristics of their race, as they have paedomorphic, more childlish and rounded features. Women are also used to illustrate a type in old physical anthropology books (e.g. 1149 photographic plates in A. Friendethal's "Das Weib im Leben der Volker"), but most are men. It's good to have a male and female example of any race, the very short and concave Tydal nose is striking.

I don't have a personal need to show pictures of beautiful women. I can go out to the city and watch them, and they even look better. I don't think many pictures of women posted here or elsewhere in the various racial boards are of a scientific value, it's rather to show the lads a beautiful woman and give points to each other. Then we have the issue that many women tend to artificially change their looks by makeup and dying their hairs.

I try to show men, if one can find any good ones, and the Estonian subject Etti is a great example of a more juvenile-looking Aisto-Nordid type.






Originally posted by Loki
A bit off topic, I am a bit surprised that racial comparisons and classifications by men are nowadays made by looking at women :)

Of course we choose women to look at and classify, because we see a beauty and find them attractive. But this has little to do with honest anthropological research! ;) In most books about race, I found the authors have used male specimens to prove their point, since I think the male shows subracial difference probably more clearly than females.

Regards

Loki

Jkl
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 04:03 PM
In all the pictures you have posted they have a very light golden skin or reddish. I mantain my opinion and I keep saying that the true white skin is the one in this Spaniard (she hasnīt any golden, reddish or pinkish tone in it; it is completely white):

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=25594




Compare her to this:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=26010

or to this:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=26015


It is clear to see that the whitest skin is that of the Spaniard. The rest have light golden, pinkish or reddish in them.

Loki
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by JKL
In all the pictures you have posted they have a very light golden skin or reddish. I mantain my opinion and I keep saying that the true white skin is the one in this Spaniard (she hasnīt any golden, reddish or pinkish tone in it; it is completely white):



It is clear to see that the whitest skin is that of the Spaniard. The rest have light golden, pinkish or reddish in them.

I know what you're referring to, JKL. But I think it is an illusion, mostly. Sure, many Spaniards have light skin - I have seen them myself. But this is especially true when contrasting against dark hair and eyes, as Sigrun has said previously.

If you visited England (not London), you will see what extreme depigmented skin looks like. Extremely light Spanish skin is the exception, rather than the rule. But in northern Europe it is more common than dark skin.

This debate about NE versus NW (which is the lightest) is an interesting one, but I will not venture to state one or the other without proper research. As of yet I am not convinced of either. I have seen extremely light skin on people from both England & Ireland, and from the more eastern Sweden, Finland and the Baltic. Since I have only been to Sweden once, and that only for three days, I don't know enough. I think some modern research is vital to get a good picture. One day when I have a good digital camera and some money to spare, I will do an anthropological tour of Europe and let you know what I found ;)

Jkl
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Loki,

Iīm quite sure that in England (Iīve been to England and I saw it) and in most parts of Northern Europe there are "extreme depigmented skin" types but Iīm also quite sure that what they have is very light golden skin or a skin with some reddish or pinkish tonalities (like those in this thread). If we are talking about completely white skin We have to talk about white skin not golden, reddish, pinkish skin. Blond people usually have light golden skin as you can see in the pictures in this thread. So the whitest skin has to come from brunettes with extremely milky white skin (if they were blond they will probably have very light golden skin but not really a milky white skin).

I posted the picture of that Spanish woman not because it is the norm in Spain (because it is not) but because it is the perfect example of the whitest skin (milky white).



But this is especially true when contrasting against dark hair and eyes

We are talking about skin tonality. If you put blond hair and blue eyes to that Spanish woman her skin tone will still be milky white, so it is not the contrast with dark hair or eyes the reason why it looks like that she has milky white skin but because in fact she has the white milky skin, independently if she has dark eyes and hair or not. If We focus just in the skin she has the whitest skin tone possible, independently of the contrast with her dark hair and eyes.

Leucoderma=white skin.
Leucoderma is not very light golden skin, not a skin with redish or pinkish tones either.

Glenlivet
Monday, May 26th, 2003, 11:03 PM
The pink skin comes from the fact that the skin texture is thinner. It's the blood flow. The skin obtains its pink appearance from the red pigment called haemoglobin (inside red blood cells). Ruddy (which is the most sensitive type) skin is not a colour, but a result of capillaries close to the skin. Pale skin is a result of capillaries being far below the skin surface.

Those with a milky white skin colour never have skin type 1, and they tan differently to a brownish hue.

No, that Spanish woman doesn't have the lighest skin colour possible. Julianne Moore, the American actress of at least partly Scottish ancestry is a much better example. I shall attach a picture of her.





Originally posted by JKL
Loki,

Iīm quite sure that in England (Iīve been to England and I saw it) and in most parts of Northern Europe there are "extreme depigmented skin" types but Iīm also quite sure that what they have is very light golden skin or a skin with some reddish or pinkish tonalities (like those in this thread). If we are talking about completely white skin We have to talk about white skin not golden, reddish, pinkish skin. Blond people usually have light golden skin as you can see in the pictures in this thread. So the whitest skin has to come from brunettes with extremely milky white skin (if they were blond they will probably have very light golden skin but not really a milky white skin).

I posted the picture of that Spanish woman not because it is the norm in Spain (because it is not) but because it is the perfect example of the whitest skin (milky white).




We are talking about skin tonality. If you put blond hair and blue eyes to that Spanish woman her skin tone will still be milky white, so it is not the contrast with dark hair or eyes the reason why it looks like that she has milky white skin but because in fact she has the white milky skin, independently if she has dark eyes and hair or not. If We focus just in the skin she has the whitest skin tone possible, independently of the contrast with her dark hair and eyes.

Leucoderma=white skin.
Leucoderma is not very light golden skin, not a skin with redish or pinkish tones either.

Jkl
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 01:01 AM
Well, It also depends in the pictures. Here is Julianne Moore in other pictures (in these pictures she has reddish in her and a non milky white skin but very light golden (?) skin).

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/1935/JulianneMo_Grani_951913_400.jpg

Jkl
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 01:10 AM
And now, here she is with the Spanish woman (milky white skin):

Glenlivet
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 01:55 PM
Julianne Moore has lighter skin, hair and eyes, end of story.

It depends on the makeup. Maybe the girls can tell us.

Jkl
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 03:24 PM
Julianne Moore has lighter skin, hair and eyes, end of story

Leucoderma=WHITE skin.

Leucoderma doesnīt mean lighter hair and eyes.

What are We talking about, leucoderma (white skin) or people with ligther hair or eyes??.

The title in this thread is Leucoderma which means white skin or whiter skin.

Posting pictures in an outside enviroment with the sun rays making an special effect in the perception of Julianne Moore skin is not the proper way to do it.

We have to see it in a close picture in an inside enviroment (without the sun rays making special effects). In the picture Iīve posted of Julianne Moore We can see perfectly that she doesnīt have a milky white (leucoderma) skin but a very light golden (?) skin, even she has reddish in her). Contrary to that, the Spanish woman has the milky white skin as you can see comparing their skin tonalities. So, that Spaniard has the whitest tonality, end of story.

Sigrun Christianson
Tuesday, May 27th, 2003, 06:51 PM
The only people I've seen with true white, milky skin are albinos and corpses. The rest of us normal, breathing people have an undertone - either red (pink) or yellow (golden/olive).

The only way to compare the skin tones of those two women would be to wash off all of their make-up, put them side by side under the exact same lighting, against the exact same background (white) and in exactly the same clothing (white). Different lighting, make-up, background & foreground colors obscure the skin tone and hair & eye color.

Being a redhead like Julianne Moore, I can tell you that redheads use a yellow-based foundation to reduce the pinkness of our skin. That may account for some of the golden tone of her skin in some of those photos.

Yours,
Sigrun

Glenlivet
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Indeed, I agree with both Sigrun and Thorburn.

Here's another picture of Moore, a Nowegian Trönder (Valle-related?)type.

Jkl
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 06:02 PM
volksdeutsche, you donīt seem to accept what Iīve said about leucoderma and the real meaning of it (itīs strange because Iīm just using the real definition of leucoderma with the picture of the Spanish woman, ie, white skin). And you still keep posting pictures of Julianne Moore with strange light conditions. Well, that is up to you but you are being 0% objetive.

Allenson
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Sigrun

Being a redhead like Julianne Moore, I can tell you that redheads use a yellow-based foundation to reduce the pinkness of our skin. That may account for some of the golden tone of her skin in some of those photos.



Yes, interesting indeed....I was actually wondering about the "yellowy" look to her skin in a couple of those photos. I thought something looked a bit strange given her hair and eye color and her subrace (which I agree with Volks on that she must be a Tronder type).

Anyway, I can't say who has the "whitest" skin using a strict definition of white. Surely the NW European, UP derived types have more of a ruddy, vascular skin tone than other sub-types. From what I can tell (by looking at myself and others) is that this ruddiness is especially prominent on the exposed parts of the skin...especially the face and hands but also on the arms and legs during the summer time. Speaking for myself, these above mentioned areas are very ruddy and vascular but on the parts of my body that are rarely exposed (undersides of the arms, backs of the legs, feet, and other more private spots :) ), the coloring is much lighter...but still ruddyish and never truly milky white. Although, if the vascularity wasn't there, I believe that what would be left would be very milky.

I can see what JKL is talking about though..... Very few folks have truly white or depigmented skin. Some do though and certaily sometimes it seems to be accompanied by dark hair. Perhaps the contrast of the dark hair and the light skin makes the skin seem all that much lighter whereas the same skin tone on a blond or redhead wouldn't stand out as much. Although JKL already said he didn't think this to be so, I personally think it might contribute to the visual effect of very milky skin in some brunettes. Perhaps this condition of brunette hair and milky skin is an Atlantid combination of traits...

Obviously I'm not really taking a position here; really just thinking as I write and throwing out my observations...

Vojvoda
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 07:11 PM
I agree .Lets see those two women naked and then compare skin tones:)

Glenlivet
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:08 PM
Go back and read what I said on ruddy (and Thorburn agreed) skin colour from a medical perspective. Sigrun's comment about makeup is also useful.

The pictures of Julianne Moore are from the film "The Shipping News".

I try to be objective. Another pale lady is Nicole Kidman.




Originally posted by JKL
volksdeutsche, you donīt seem to accept what Iīve said about leucoderma and the real meaning of it (itīs strange because Iīm just using the real definition of leucoderma with the picture of the Spanish woman, ie, white skin). And you still keep posting pictures of Julianne Moore with strange light conditions. Well, that is up to you but you are being 0% objetive.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:11 PM
Another one of Kidman.

Sigrun Christianson
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:17 PM
Oink, providenje.

Redheads generally use a yellow-based foundation and peach/apricot-based eye, cheek and lip colors to tone down their rudiness. The yellow helps to balance out the pink. This combined with certain clothes and lighting will alter their appearance. Wash off Julianne's make up and look at her in natural sunlight - you'll see a white girl with a pink undertone.

I look different in every damn photo I've ever taken. I have one where I look devoid of all color and ghostly white, while in others I look very pink. It all depends on the the environment, my make up, and if I've recently spent any time in the sun or was active. Sun exposure increases rudiness.

The parts of my body that do not receive any sun exposure like my stomach, back, and legs, are as white as could be and have very little rudiness and no freckles. They are easily as milky white as the brunette Spaniard that JKL is so fond of... probably more.

My face, upper chest and arms are much more pink & freckled due to years of sun exposure, confirmed via my dermatologist who said he would take care of it for me for only $600. Any one want to donate to my laser surgey fund? :)

-Sig

cosmocreator
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Sigrun
I look different in every damn photo I've ever taken. I have one where I look devoid of all color and ghostly white, while in others I look very pink. It all depends on the the environment, my make up, and if I've recently spent any time in the sun or was active. Sun exposure increases rudiness.


Could I see some of your photos? If you every posted them, I don't recall what you look like.

Sigrun Christianson
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:41 PM
Ja, you can. I've never posted them in any forums (except for one filtered pic). I sent one to the SNPA list a long time ago, but that's it. I don't really like posting my photo for everyone to see.

Jkl
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:44 PM
I know that "ruddy skin colour from a medical perspective (an effect caused by the haemoglobin in the capillaries underneath)" is a fact. So, that is the cause that some people canīt have a milky white tone (leucoderma), the cause for other people is genetics, for other people could be other reason, but what is a fact is that they donīt show the leucoderma skin and that is what we are talking about in this thread. Iīm quite sure that if that Spanish woman stays 3 hours in the sun her skin probably would be redish. But without the effect of the sun rays her skin is milky white. We canīt say the same for Julianne Moore in the 2 pictures Iīve posted of her (and it doesnīt depend on the make up in this case because her shoulders, neck, and the rest have the same skin color as the face and I donīt think she uses makeup in her shoulders).

Nicole Kidman is a good example of leucoderma skin (not Julianne Moore). Not in the 1š picture because the face looks completely unnatural for some reason (makeup, lights or other) but in the 2š picture she has a milky white skin (leucoderma). It is rare to see blond or redheads with completely white skin (without reddish, pinkish or golden tones). It is easier to see brunettes with milky white skin (leucoderma) than blondes or redheads.

Loki
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Sigrun
My face, upper chest and arms are much more pink & freckled due to years of sun exposure, confirmed via my dermatologist who said he would take care of it for me for only $600. Any one want to donate to my laser surgey fund? :)


No, because I think freckles are very attractive on a redhead and I don't want you to lose any of your appeal ;)

Sigrun Christianson
Wednesday, May 28th, 2003, 11:55 PM
I'm not trying to get rid of my freckles, just my sun damage and wrinkles. C'mon on!

Loki
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Sigrun
I'm not trying to get rid of my freckles, just my sun damage and wrinkles. C'mon on!

Okay that's something different :D How stupid of me - I am sure that by now you would be aware of the immense attraction power those freckles hold!

I guess that is one bad thing about living in a sunny country. I come from South Africa, and now in England. Many South African expat women living now here in England, are commenting on the good skin of the English women, who got far less sun exposure. The sun really has the ability to age skin.

Vojvoda
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Sigrun
I'm not trying to get rid of my freckles, just my sun damage and wrinkles. C'mon on!

A face without freckles is like a night without stars.

Oink:Bouncing

Glenlivet
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 10:18 AM
Fair enough. Yes, milky white (and sallow complexion) skin colour is more common among brunettes (especially those who have a reddish quality, as in chestnut brown hair). Thus North-Atlantids (in Lundman's usage!) should have such skin colours. It should then be common in Ireland and parts of Britain. I know what you mean by light golden skin colour. The attached picture of the Swedish Minister for Finance Bosse Ringholm (who is very Nordid!)
is such an example. It also depend if the picture is taken in the summer or winter. But part of it is the reflection of light from the yellowish hair, as I have seen Swedish girls who dye their hair black, and they look very pale then.

I'm pretty sure that Spanish woman would have a brownish skin tone after 3 hours in the sun. Where did you find her picture?





Originally posted by JKL
I know that "ruddy skin colour from a medical perspective (an effect caused by the haemoglobin in the capillaries underneath)" is a fact. So, that is the cause that some people canīt have a milky white tone (leucoderma), the cause for other people is genetics, for other people could be other reason, but what is a fact is that they donīt show the leucoderma skin and that is what we are talking about in this thread. Iīm quite sure that if that Spanish woman stays 3 hours in the sun her skin probably would be redish. But without the effect of the sun rays her skin is milky white. We canīt say the same for Julianne Moore in the 2 pictures Iīve posted of her (and it doesnīt depend on the make up in this case because her shoulders, neck, and the rest have the same skin color as the face and I donīt think she uses makeup in her shoulders).

Nicole Kidman is a good example of leucoderma skin (not Julianne Moore). Not in the 1š picture because the face looks completely unnatural for some reason (makeup, lights or other) but in the 2š picture she has a milky white skin (leucoderma). It is rare to see blond or redheads with completely white skin (without reddish, pinkish or golden tones). It is easier to see brunettes with milky white skin (leucoderma) than blondes or redheads.

hardcorps
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 12:39 PM
Interesting how the few genes that code for red haired-ness can turn an otherwise rather sallow complexion extremely fair. Consider Nicole's sister, Antonia Kidman. Hardly a candidate for leucoderma status, yet very much like Nicole in most other phenotypic particulars. (The dark hair doesn't make her skin appear any lighter!)

A blonde or brown/black haired very fair-skinned person likely comes from a very fair immediate genepool. A redhead can be the one 'white sheep' of a fairly sallow/light golden family.

Here's Antonia:

cosmocreator
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Sigrun
Ja, you can. I've never posted them in any forums (except for one filtered pic). I sent one to the SNPA list a long time ago, but that's it. I don't really like posting my photo for everyone to see.


Would you like to email them to me or do you have a site I can view them? ns1488ca@yahoo.com

Jkl
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 10:18 PM
volksdeutsche,


Thus North-Atlantids (in Lundman's usage!) should have such skin colours. It should then be common in Ireland and parts of Britain

And...what about Spain, Italy, France?, arenīt there many brunettes?. You still think of Southern Europeans as "olive people with dark complexion" and that is a very big mistake. You can think whatever you want to think, I really donīt care about it, but at least you shouldnīt be so parcial when saying that basically the only brunette people with pale skin are North-Atlandis and forgetting about the millions of brunettes in Southern Europe. You are probably one of the few Scandinavians that have never been to Spain or Italy so you still talk about what youīve read in some books that some anthropologists wrote 50 years ago (to show how ignorant can some antropologist be, there was a very ignorant anthropologist, Iīm not sure but I think it was Kemp, that said that Spain had 1 million blacks 400 years ago...what a joke!!, what he didnīt know that those supossed 1 million blacks were driven to Central America and South America to work in the plantations!, so imagine how biased can be some antropological books).

I can tell you that the land of brunettes is mainly in Southern Europe. Here there are millions of brunettes and many of them have a complete white skin (leucoderma) in the winter (come here in the winter if you donīt believe it). Of course there are olive skinned people but they donīt even represent a third of the population in here.

A picture of Spaniards, do they look olive-skinned to you?. Some of them are by definition "whitest" (whiter skinned) than many Northern Europeans. If you came to Spain in the winter you will see that they have the palest-whitest tonality possible (but because you just like nordics it seems that you donīt want to accept other realities).

Jkl
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 10:24 PM
volksdeutsche


I'm pretty sure that Spanish woman would have a brownish skin tone after 3 hours in the sun. Where did you find her picture?


She has a skin that clearly will become reddish after 3 hours of sun-bathing. Probably she would get a darker tone after several days of sun-bathing but in the first times it would become reddish. I donīt know where I downloaded the picture (I had it in my computer long ago).


It seems that you donīt want to accept that there are many southern Europeans that are fair skinned, that you donīt want to accept that there are blond-blue eyed people, redheads, many milky white skinned brunnetes in Southern Europe. As Iīve said before, it is up to you what you think but you are ignoring reality. Iīm quite sure that there is a relatively important number of Southern Europeans that are fairer skinned than a relatively important number of Northern Europeans, and probably there are some southern Europeans that are more nordic than a good number of people from Northern Europe (and I wonīt be surprised if there are southern europeans than are even more nordic than you).


For you it must be hard to understand that there are people like me in Southern Europe, a 100% southern European with blond hair and blue eyes which looks very nordic (Iīve even been classified as Halstatt nordic and Iīm 100% Spaniard with no foreign ancestors in at least the last 400 years -I couldnīt get further in my family tree-). If We are talking about nordicness Iīm quite sure that Iīm more nordic than most central europeans and than a few million of northern Europeans. Can you believe it, a southern European which is more nordic than a few millions of northern Europeans? (it must be a great surprise for someone here). These are some pictures of me:




Now you can still keep thinking that everything down the Alps (Spain, Italy, Portugal,...) is olive skinned with dark features, I will still thinking that you lack knowledge.


* Iīve posted this message not because I really care about a personal opinion of a particular person but to show some lights in this issue, because it is very often mistaken.

Jkl
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 10:29 PM
I forgot the pictures of me as a child:

Scáthach
Thursday, May 29th, 2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by volksdeutsche
A very dark Irishman, and such types are not found in northern and northeastern Europe.

He represented Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest held in Riga, Latvia yesterday night.


i like him,the song wasnt my type of thing though.
how would you classify him volks?

Glenlivet
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 12:12 AM
I have never said that Nordids don't exist in Southern Europe, all the better if they do. But it's just rare, and they are atypical there, but not in Northern Europe, as expected. It's relative.

I'm not surprised of anything, be it your racial type or the rude behaviour. Yes, I can believe that there are Spaniards and Italians who look more Nordid (sometimes a sibling is different though) than some North Europeans. South Europeans can be blond and blue eyed. I know that, and others too. But the average Dutchman is much more Nordid than the Spaniard. That is how anthropology is used. You say I lack knowledge, yet you're arguing with me and trying to convince me. My opinion is too important to you. You obviously care about a personal opinion, as you go at such great lenghts to try refute me. Enlighten people about Spaniards, all the better. You could have said that it's a personal issue from the start though.

Northern Italy is the least Mediterranid region in Southern Europe (although it's almost Central Europe).






Originally posted by JKL
volksdeutsche




She has a skin that clearly will become reddish after 3 hours of sun-bathing. Probably she would get a darker tone after several days of sun-bathing but in the first times it would become reddish. I donīt know where I downloaded the picture (I had it in my computer long ago).


It seems that you donīt want to accept that there are many southern Europeans that are fair skinned, that you donīt want to accept that there are blond-blue eyed people, redheads, many milky white skinned brunnetes in Southern Europe. As Iīve said before, it is up to you what you think but you are ignoring reality. Iīm quite sure that there is a relatively important number of Southern Europeans that are fairer skinned than a relatively important number of Northern Europeans, and probably there are some southern Europeans that are more nordic than a good number of people from Northern Europe (and I wonīt be surprised if there are southern europeans than are even more nordic than you).


For you it must be hard to understand that there are people like me in Southern Europe, a 100% southern European with blond hair and blue eyes which looks very nordic (Iīve even been classified as Halstatt nordic and Iīm 100% Spaniard with no foreign ancestors in at least the last 400 years -I couldnīt get further in my family tree-). If We are talking about nordicness Iīm quite sure that Iīm more nordic than most central europeans and than a few million of northern Europeans. Can you believe it, a southern European which is more nordic than a few millions of northern Europeans? (it must be a great surprise for someone here). These are some pictures of me:




Now you can still keep thinking that everything down the Alps (Spain, Italy, Portugal,...) is olive skinned with dark features, I will still thinking that you lack knowledge.


* Iīve posted this message not because I really care about a personal opinion of a particular person but to show some lights in this issue, because it is very often mistaken.

Jkl
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 12:31 AM
I donīt think Iīve had a rude behaviour at all. Reread all what Iīve said.

Yes, I know Iīve said you lack knowledge. If you think that the only brunettes with pale skin can just be common in Ireland and parts of Britain is that because you lack knowledge, and that is a fact. There is nothing wrong with lacking knowledge, it makes someone to try to search for more information.


My opinion is too important to you. You obviously care about a personal opinion, as you go at such great lenghts to try refute me. Enlighten people about Spaniards, all the better. You could have said that it's a personal issue from the start though.

You havenīt understood what Iīve really said. Your personal opinion about this particular issue doesnīt care me (it is not your own particular opinion what cares me), you can be right or wrong but that is you particular opinion and position about this issue and I respect it as I respect other opinions or positions. What I donīt care is when this issue and your position can make many people believe that the only right answer is your answer. That is why I care to explain and debate with "such great lenghts" my position, which is different from yours. I have enlighten my position, which is that of the southern europeans and in my case of the Spaniards because Iīve posted a picture of a brunette Spaniard with milky white skin. I think my position and opinions are relevant to this issue since I am a southern European and Iīve posted pictures of people of my country (specially that picture of the Spanish model). I donīt think there should be an issue when people are debating. And there is nothing personal about it, I donīt know anything about you, so why should I have anything personal in pro or against you?.


BTW, since youīve just seen my child pictures Iīm going to delete them from my previous post since I donīt want them to be posted forever.

NatRev
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 01:02 AM
on skin colour, how come my brother who has red hair has skin colour like Tippex, (that was one of his nicknames at school... honest) yet I have light brown hair and have a more 'pinkier' complexion and even get sun burn when I'm in the garden for an hour or two on a particularly sunny day....

:Grinding

Vojvoda
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 01:37 AM
this post seems to be a very sensitive subjet

Scáthach
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 11:22 AM
i have VERY pale skin.my family are completely irish and i have mid brown hair but my skin is totally *white* it has even had a bluish tinge in the past which was worrying-i think the fact that i was aneamic accounts for why that was anyway...lol hopefully.
generally my skin would be the same tone as that pale spanish girl i think,perhaps a lttle paler.

hardcorps
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 04:55 PM
'this post seems to be a very sensitive subjet'

Literally.:)

cosmocreator
Friday, May 30th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Scathach
i have VERY pale skin.my family are completely irish and i have mid brown hair but my skin is totally *white* it has even had a bluish tinge in the past which was worrying-i think the fact that i was aneamic accounts for why that was anyway...lol hopefully.
generally my skin would be the same tone as that pale spanish girl i think,perhaps a lttle paler.


Can I see pictures?

Scáthach
Saturday, May 31st, 2003, 01:52 PM
i have no scanner at the mo but hopefully i will soon :)