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Northern Paladin
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 06:46 PM
What racial element contributed to the Scandinavian propensity for full lips?

Looking at a group of Scandinavians one trait that can be used to distiguish them from other Germanics is their propensity for fuller lips. Unlike the English Ango-Saxon type which has rather thin lips.

Master-of-Swords
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 06:48 PM
What racial element contributed to the Scandinavian propensity for full lips?

Looking at a group of Scandinavians one trait that can be used to distiguish them from other Germanics is their propensity for fuller lips. Unlike the English Ango-Saxon type which has rather thin lips.

I have never noticed this myself. Do you have any evidence?

Northern Paladin
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 06:49 PM
I have never noticed this myself. Do you have any evidence?

Yes. Though it would involve posting quite a few pictures.

You haven't seen many Scandinaivians have you? This is true especially for the females.

Master-of-Swords
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 07:41 PM
Yes. Though it would involve posting quite a few pictures.

You haven't seen many Scandinaivians have you? This is true especially for the females.
Haha no only the one but I wasnt aware that it was a common feature though.
I would be interested to see the pictures though.

Rhydderch
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 12:01 PM
As I said on another thread I think it may be a feature of the Tydal type.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Haha no only the one but I wasnt aware that it was a common feature though.
I would be interested to see the pictures though.

Ok here are some pics. Some of them I got from snyggast.se. Ultra thin lips I believe is a Brunn trait. Which hasn't had too much influence in Scandinavia.

SouthernBoy
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 07:52 PM
The Brunn and Paleo-Atlantid is what contributes to the average, thin, lip size in England.

SudVolk
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 08:06 PM
What racial element contributed to the Scandinavian propensity for full lips?

Looking at a group of Scandinavians one trait that can be used to distiguish them from other Germanics is their propensity for fuller lips. Unlike the English Ango-Saxon type which has rather thin lips.As with peroxide and blonde hair, one needs to be wary of the fashion for collagen injections.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 08:08 PM
As with peroxide and blonde hair, one needs to be wary of the fashion for collagen injections.

It's natural.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 12:14 AM
One of my all time Swedish favorites, Britt Eklund, had this feature. It can be seen in other women of European ancestry regardless of sub-race. It comes from a condition in which the maxilla and teeth protrude somewhat. This "puffs" out the soft features of the mouth and rolls the lips outward slightly. Men can have it also but it is much more common in women. It is probably the result of sexual selection.

Negroes have this condition in an extreme sense but with them the lips are much thicker and extraverted as well.

Krampus
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Could the full lips have come from an East Baltic source?

Northern Paladin
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 01:51 AM
One of my all time Swedish favorites, Britt Eklund, had this feature. It can be seen in other women of European ancestry regardless of sub-race. It comes from a condition in which the maxilla and teeth protrude somewhat. This "puffs" out the soft features of the mouth and rolls the lips outward slightly. Men can have it also but it is much more common in women. It is probably the result of sexual selection.

Negroes have this condition in an extreme sense but with them the lips are much thicker and extraverted as well.

You sure it's the result of the protruding of the maxilla? Scandinavians are just as Organthous as other Europeans.

Rhydderch
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 03:07 AM
It comes from a condition in which the maxilla and teeth protrude somewhat. This "puffs" out the soft features of the mouth and rolls the lips outward slightly.
Yes, I think that's a feature of Tydals.

Gareth
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 07:58 AM
Could the full lips have come from an East Baltic source?
East Baltic proper is rather thin-lipped to non-lipped :P imho:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=29196

The thick-lipped race of the "Osteuropid" world is probably Coon's Neo Danubian, Paleoasiatic or whatever name is correct.

http://img143.exs.cx/img143/2633/000132360yn.jpg

Northern Paladin
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 09:50 AM
East Baltic proper is rather thin-lipped to non-lipped :P imho:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=29196

The thick-lipped race of the "Osteuropid" world is probably Coon's Neo Danubian, Paleoasiatic or whatever name is correct.

http://img143.exs.cx/img143/2633/000132360yn.jpg

Danubian could be the source of fuller lips in Scandinavians. As they are racially more Danubian compared to Britain.

Gareth
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Danubian could be the source of fuller lips in Scandinavians. As they are racially more Danubian compared to Britain.

Scandinavians look a hundred times better at least. ;)

No really I didn't want to incline that.

Frans Jozef said once that everted lips are a Bruenn trait. The Scandinavian Bruenn could just be a strain of it's own.

Agrippa
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 05:50 PM
Full lips are in my opinion a feature not that uncommon on more modern Nordid types, but rare in those Nordics which might be of an older branch, especially in Great Britain.

If you look at the "stiff" and high lip of some British, but the real lips are just lines, its a very old European trait.

Full lips are usually considered as being more progressive, though its always necessary to distinguish full lips from facial prognathy or alveolarprognathy.
And full lips are not the same as really thick lips, which are rather rare even in Scandinavia.

Some speculation: The typical Nordids of the continent and Scandinavia have fuller lips, are probably more associated with the Indoeuropean influx of more modern Nordid variants (Hallstatt, Danubian/Corded/Troender), whereas the older North Western Atlantean population (Palaeatlantids, robust Nordics ~ Bruenn, Dalofaelids and Northern Alpinoids = Borreby) tend more to thin lips and more coarse features.

So I would tend to say that the Scandinavian Nordid variant is the more modern and Indoeuropean form, whereas the type with the thin, but high and "stiff lip" (John Major is an example) is rather the older and in that sense more primitive Nordic variant(s).

If you look at typical Australids, its interesting, they have very strong prognathy, but thin lips...

I think this might be one out of various features which points to the bipolarity of the Nordic North with older and newer waves of Nordic people.

Gareth
Friday, December 31st, 2004, 02:06 AM
Some of us believe that subraces lead to certain personality-traits. I'm not saying this is true in every instance but let's imagine this out concerning the topic.

This Dalo-Faelid would be considered fair, hard-working, grave, intelligent etc.:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Phalian/Phalian-MatthiasSammer2.jpg

Armenoid would be alleged to act macho-like, mischievous, nasty etc.:
http://img83.exs.cx/img83/4917/armenoidarmeniansplate4237zh.jpg

One factor in this "look" are the bowed lips (U-shape), which is East-Mediterranean and in combination with prognathy, Armenoid.

So it's not only about the thickness but also the shape. I wouldn't want my children to have bowed lips so I wouln't marry a woman with this trait, even if it looks 'sexy'. Of course a face (http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL845/2882971/5814819/74973657.jpg) devoid of passions is not desirable either.

And full lips are not the same as really thick lips, which are rather rare even in Scandinavia.
I agree. The most common sight is a medium shape including a slightly thicker lower lip anyway.

whereas the older North Western Atlantean population (Palaeatlantids, robust Nordics ~ Bruenn, Dalofaelids and Northern Alpinoids = Borreby) tend more to thin lips and more coarse features.
I agree that these races are often coarser featured than Nordic and that the condition of Nordic is to prefer here.

What I associate with Alpinoid may be neither refined in the Nordic way nor coarse at once (which at all got lost here didn't it?). Guenther called that mediocre. But I think this kind of type is much more common than the archaic coarse Borreby.

I think this might be one out of various features which points to the bipolarity of the Nordic North with older and newer waves of Nordic people.
But this wave is only inner-Nordic and not a spread of Nordics. This is the main weakness of the Scando-Nordic anyway. If Nordics would make it to be more reproductive, then they would be progressive at the final count.

Some speculation: The typical Nordids of the continent and Scandinavia have fuller lips, are probably more associated with the Indoeuropean influx of more modern Nordid variants (Hallstatt, Danubian/Corded/Troender)
I keep to Lundman here:
http://img97.exs.cx/img97/3815/lundracesfig1a6jk.jpg

"Nordens Rastyper: Geografi och Historia" (1940) by Bertil Lundman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Occidental/Scando-Nordic/lundman1.jpg

Translated from Swedish to English:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Occidental/Scando-Nordic/Goetatypen.jpg
a) Götatypen clearer blue eyes, somewhat lower head (HLI approx. 68-69. Narrower more sloping forehead and towards the temples weak forehead. Distribution: Mainly in eastern England and Scotland, northwestern Germany, southern and western Jylland and Norway, southwestern Sweden and up to Värmland and Väster-Dalarna.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_OreTrnder2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/OreTrnder2.jpg)http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_OreTrnder.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/OreTrnder.jpg)http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_OreTrnder.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/VstraRttvikTrnder2.jpg)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_VstraRttvikTrnder.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/VstraRttvikTrnder.jpg)http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_LivUllman.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/LivUllman.jpg)http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_Tronderkari.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/Tronderkidman.jpg)http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/th_NordicsalteredbynorthwesternEuropeanU pperPalaeolithicmixture-Iplate32.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Paleolithic/Tronder/NordicsalteredbynorthwesternEuropeanUppe rPalaeolithicmixture-Iplate32.jpg)

b) Tröndetypen: Eyes more grey-blue, somewhat higher head (HLI 71-72). The forehead somewhat steeper and broader and more rounded on the sides. Distribution: Northern mountains of Norway and Sweden above all between Ångermanälven och Dalälven; Åland m. m.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Occidental/Scando-Nordic/th_Vstmanlandstyperfr.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Occidental/Scando-Nordic/Vstmanlandstyperfr.jpg)
B. Sub-race: Västmanlandstypen: lower stature (approx. 171-172 cm.), particularly shorter legs, but longer arms (even absolutely!), low head, medium broad "rounded" face (A I 85-90) with fairly weak lower jaw, the nose form a fairly strong angle with the forehead, is besides short and often somewhat concave (even among the men, as a rule with the women). Eyes light greyblue. Distribution mainly Västmanland; besides eastern Närke, southern Dalarna and parts of Östergötland, SE Skåne etc. in Sweden; eastern Norway and Nyland in Finland.
At least in this scheme, Trönder (Scando-Nordic+Bruenn) has more prominent lips. One could even argue that Göta is related to British North-Atlantids since both types tend to have thin lips.
So I would tend to say that the Scandinavian Nordid variant is the more modern and Indoeuropean form, whereas the type with the thin, but high and "stiff lip" (John Major is an example) is rather the older and in that sense more primitive Nordic variant(s).
John Major's lips are basically invisible with a broad mouth from UP in addition. A bit more lips wouldn't hurt.

If you look at typical Australids, its interesting, they have very strong prognathy, but thin lips...
The Paleo-Negrids and Paleo-Mongolids (followed by Tungid) have thick lips and pertain to the less progressive subraces of their major races. So no clear tendency here at all.

Nordics and Mediterraneans are not retrogressive because they retain old features like a long skull, narrow build, short trunk, facial profile etc.

Agrippa
Friday, December 31st, 2004, 09:46 AM
At least in this scheme, Trönder (Scando-Nordic+Bruenn) has more prominent lips. One could even argue that Göta is related to British North-Atlantids since both types tend to have thin lips.

I think they are somewhat in between the robust Nordic type (~ Bruenn), North Atlantid and Corded. Maybe thats related to the East-West-intermediate position of Scandinavian Nordics if its about lineages.

But you are right, I might have exaggerated the difference, because you cant draw that clear lines between East and West if its about this feature, though its obvious that the older stratum of the North West, the "Upper Palaeolithics" in Coons scheme, tend to a broader mouth and thinner lips with the specialty of high-thin lips.

Furthermore full lips inside the Northern variation are not the same as "full lips" in the human variation of the world.


The Paleo-Negrids and Paleo-Mongolids (followed by Tungid) have thick lips and pertain to the less progressive subraces of their major races. So no clear tendency here at all.

Interestingly Bambutids have rather thin lips and a broad mouth as well and some said that full lips are the only progressive feature, though if extreme rather unattractive, of the Negrid type.


Nordics and Mediterraneans are not retrogressive because they retain old features like a long skull, narrow build, short trunk, facial profile etc.

For sure not, but thats what I have always written, progressive means advantageous to me from a general evolutionary perspective and not just "new", which can be degenerated as well.

Rhydderch
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 02:34 AM
Some of us believe that subraces lead to certain personality-traits.
Quite likely; this certainly happens with animals; for instance in dogs, particular breeds with a distinct physical constitution tend to behave in distinct ways; in humans of course, such tendencies are affected by culture and religion, and so are not always as pronounced, especially if the 'sub-race' spans a number of different nations.

SouthernBoy
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 03:17 AM
What would having high-lips be like?

Thruthheim
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Im classified as Skando-Nordic and i have "full lips".
Edit: Pic Removed