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View Full Version : Why is French listed as a Germanic ethnicity?



StrÝbog
Saturday, December 25th, 2004, 06:40 AM
One *might* get away with calling Normans Germanic, but I very much doubt that someone from Languedoc or Bretagne would be considered Germanic by other Germanics or would regard themselves as such.

France seems to derive more of its blood and culture from the Gauls than from the Franks. "Franco-Germanic" seems an attempt to patch together two meta-ethnicities with little common heritage and an often mutually hostile history, much like "Celto-Germanic." The reasons for these blendings seem invariably to be due to Americans who want to reconcile their mixed ancestry. I am no exception in this regard, but at least I acknowledge the implicit contradictions.

StrÝbog
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 12:09 AM
*Crickets chirping*

No takers?

Krampus
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 01:06 AM
I assume you're speaking of the Germanic ethnicity's listed where it is Franco-Germanic=French/Norman. I assumed this was just referring to Norman separatist as seen in this website.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/unite.normande/

In addition to Germanic Normans descended from Danes, there are ethnic Germans who live in the disputed territory of Alsace-Lorraine. Should they not refer to themselves as "Franco-Germanic"?

StrÝbog
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 01:15 AM
In addition to Germanic Normans descended from Danes, there are ethnic Germans who live in the disputed territory of Alsace-Lorraine. Should they not refer to themselves as "Franco-Germanic"?

They should only identify as "Franco-Germanic" if they actually have significant ancestry from both sides. How frequent was German-French intermarriage in the region?

Krampus
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 02:07 AM
StrÝbog

How frequent was German-French intermarriage in the region?


Honestly, I wouldn't have any idea. The area has had an effort to 'de-Germanize' the population both in WW1 and WW2 from French propaganda. The French have referred to it in their own words in describing Alsatians and Lorraines as Germans by ethnicity, but French by choice. Similar to Germany and areas bordering the Slavs.

I could see "Franco-German" being used in the same context as someone would call himself, "Swiss-German".

yamato
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 01:19 AM
it's funny, many people in alsace have very long, guttural germanic sounding first names, and very smooth sounding french first names

Rhydderch
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 03:42 AM
One *might* get away with calling Normans Germanic, but I very much doubt that someone from Languedoc or Bretagne would be considered Germanic by other Germanics or would regard themselves as such.

France seems to derive more of its blood and culture from the Gauls than from the Franks.
That's true, but it's the same with England, and of course many Bretons don't consider themselves French anyway.
The population of Languedoc has traditionally spoken the Langue d'oc, as opposed to the northern Langue d'oil (which is a very Germanicised descendant of 'vulgar' Latin), so in a sense the southern French don't have that Frankish ethnicity.

I think if one includes the English as Germanic then logically he should also include the French as such, although personally I regard neither of the two as truly Germanic.

It's true that the English speak a Germanic language, but I think if 'vulgar' Latin had been dominant in late Roman Britain (as it was in late Roman Gaul) then the English would probably be speaking some sort of Germanicised Latin.

yamato
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 04:58 AM
im interested in the germanic origins of the northern french language (langue d'oeil is how it's spelled), i have taken 5 years of french and have never heard or read anything about a german element in french language. do you know a good book or a site where i can read more?

Rhydderch
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 06:13 AM
im interested in the germanic origins of the northern french language (langue d'oeil is how it's spelled),It can be spelt d'oil but with an umlaut over the 'i'; I don't know how to type one so I just left it out; but perhaps d'oeil is a more frequent spelling.


i have taken 5 years of french and have never heard or read anything about a german element in french language. do you know a good book or a site where i can read more?There used to be an excellent website on the issue but I searched around and it does'nt seem to exist any more.

Anyway, the site said that after the Frankish conquest of Gaul there was a long period of bilingualism until Latin (or Gallo-Romance) finally prevailed; but this Gallo-Romance had been very altered by Germanic pronunciation and vocabulary, and the structure also became somewhat Germanicised.

I have also read that there are about 900 words of Germanic origin in French, and mediaeval French personal names are, as far as I can tell, almost entirely of Germanic origin (including the many names with the suffix 'bert'), except for the names associated with Christianity.

I have found this from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

"The Franks
From the third century on, Western Europe was invaded by Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribe) (or "Barbarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian)") tribes from the east, and some of these groups settled in Gaul. For the history of the French language, the most important of these groups are the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) (northern France), the Alemanni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemanni) (German/French border), the Burgundians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians) (the Rhone valley) and the Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoth) (the Aquitaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitaine) region and Spain). These Germanic-speaking groups had a profound effect on the Latin spoken in their respective regions, altering both the pronunciation and the syntax. They also introduced a number of new words: perhaps as much as 15% of modern French comes from Germanic words (including many terms and expressions associated with their social structure and military tactics)."

If you do some google searches you will probably find more.

SS Charlemagne
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 02:49 PM
French people is a mix of 3 ethnicity :
- Celtik : mainly in the west ( briton) ( ancestors of the Gaul people)
- Germanic : in the North ( ancestors of the Franks germanics tribes)
- Latin : in the South.( ancestors of the Roman and Gallo-roman)


im interested in the germanic origins of the northern french language (langue d'oeil is how it's spelled), i have taken 5 years of french and have never heard or read anything about a german element in french language. do you know a good book or a site where i can read more? Try also this ones :
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/French/French.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0858274.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8716/langue.html

Even if Gaule was romanized and used to speak Latin and if french language was very influenced by the Latin, the germanic and Vicking invasion in the North influenced a little the french language and today you can find some similitud between french language and German language.

Louky
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 02:58 PM
...i have taken 5 years of french and have never heard or read anything about a german element in french language.
Me neither, but to my ear French is basically Latin spoken with a German accent -- especially the "u" sound.

Rollon
Thursday, December 30th, 2004, 03:16 PM
One *might* get away with calling Normans Germanic, but I very much doubt that someone from Languedoc or Bretagne would be considered Germanic by other Germanics or would regard themselves as such.

France seems to derive more of its blood and culture from the Gauls than from the Franks. "Franco-Germanic" seems an attempt to patch together two meta-ethnicities with little common heritage and an often mutually hostile history, much like "Celto-Germanic." The reasons for these blendings seem invariably to be due to Americans who want to reconcile their mixed ancestry. I am no exception in this regard, but at least I acknowledge the implicit contradictions.

Interesting point of view. I think you've got kind of 'national' bias though. According to one classification, Gauls would be as Indo-Germanic as Franks, since Gauls are Celts, Franks are Teutons, and all Celts, Teutons and Scandinavians derive from the Scythians, an Indo-Aryan people.

I agree and I said on another thread that France is poor in Germanic blood. According to the Count of Boulanvilliers, an early (17th century) scientific racist, the French nobility, with Frank ancestry, blue-eyed and blond, racially differs from the core population. Gauls would then be Alpine.

Due to Boulainvillier's theory, a theory that Richelieu later adopted in criticizing weddings between aristocrats and rich bourgeois as mongrelization, the French Revolution has been called by some 'the war of the two races'.

However, Count Arthur de Gobineau, another early racist, said the same was true for Germany. He thought German aristocraty was Aryan, but the rural masses were Slavs. Actually, he thought European aristocraty was an Aryan class ruling over alien populations all over Europe.

Later, Vacher de Lapouge, a social darwinist, considered France and Germany almost equally poor in Aryan blood. He considered as the only Aryan nations at his time (end of 19th century) Scandinavia, the United Kingdom (especially Scotland) and the United States. He was expecting some reaction against jewry coming from these countries, not from Germany actually.

These are important questions. The truth is that you can't make researches on these questions at university nowadays. Censorship is everywhere. To the respect of race, Science of Man is as incomplete as it was before WWII.

By the way, guys, what is your reference when you talk about types, subtypes and so on ?

Aragorn
Monday, March 28th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Why is everyone forgotten than France is more then just the Germanic areas of the Elsass-Lothringen, Normandia and the Germanic North, once known as Francia?One specific area is originally, historical, racial and cultural, Flemish. We speak about the region Nort pas de Calais. This area once was Dutch speaking, and even today theres an small minority who still use their ancestral Flemish dialect. In this region, known as French-Flanders are citys situated such as Rijsel(Lille), Duinkerke(Dunkerque), Kales(Calais), Bonen(Boulogne), Witsant(Wissant), St.Winoksbergen(Berques), Abbegem(Abbeville), Grevelingen(Gravelines), Kassel(Cassel), Mergem(Merville), Hazebroek(Hazebrouck), St.Omaars(Saint Omer), Armentiers(Armentieres), Arien aan de Leie(Aire sur la Lys), Sperleke(Eperleques), Berk(Berck), Roodbeke(Roubaix) en Halewijn(Halluin).
Franche it self could be an Germanic nation if history didnt went to the wrong way.

Rollon
Tuesday, March 29th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Why is everyone forgotten than France is more then just the Germanic areas of the Elsass-Lothringen, Normandia and the Germanic North, once known as Francia?One specific area is originally, historical, racial and cultural, Flemish. We speak about the region Nort pas de Calais. This area once was Dutch speaking, and even today theres an small minority who still use their ancestral Flemish dialect. In this region, known as French-Flanders are citys situated such as Rijsel(Lille), Duinkerke(Dunkerque), Kales(Calais), Bonen(Boulogne), Witsant(Wissant), St.Winoksbergen(Berques), Abbegem(Abbeville), Grevelingen(Gravelines), Kassel(Cassel), Mergem(Merville), Hazebroek(Hazebrouck), St.Omaars(Saint Omer), Armentiers(Armentieres), Arien aan de Leie(Aire sur la Lys), Sperleke(Eperleques), Berk(Berck), Roodbeke(Roubaix) en Halewijn(Halluin).
Franche it self could be an Germanic nation if history didnt went to the wrong way.
Very informative post. I didn't know you had Flemish names for all these towns. :thumbup

Economically speaking, the region is not really buoyant nowadays. It used to be a propsperous industrial area, but the conversion to new industries and to a tertiary economy has been hard. So now you find a lot of abandoned mines and ruins of factories there, and unemployment is high.

To my knowledge, the population is not far, as a type, from what you find in the Netherlands.