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View Full Version : Northern Asia repopulated from Beringia and central Asia accroding to mtDNA analysis



Test
Saturday, December 18th, 2004, 06:22 PM
"According to the time estimates in table 2 and the


geographic distributions in figures 5 and 6, northern Asia


was resettled partly from central Asia (from approximately


the latitude of Korea according to fig. 5) and partly from


the Beringian glacial refuge from whence the Na Dene and


Eskimo derive their mtDNA clade A2 types (Forster et al.


1996)."

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, December 19th, 2004, 02:24 AM
My crippled computer won't do pdf files so I will have to rely on the summary paragraph and the two maps.

If these genes did originate in Beringia, it doesn't necessarily mean that the people migrated from Beringia to the New World and then back again. It is possible to migrate and then go back again. It has been done by horses and wolves but what is the evidence for humans"

As I recall, the Na-Dene people, Algonquins for example, look Paleo-Mongoloid. There are two types of Eskimo. The coasal Alaskan Eskimo and the truely polar Eskimo. The Eskimo who inhabit the coastal regions of Alaska and its islands look much more Paleo-Mongoloid than do the Inuit, the more polar Eskimo. So, the evidence of physical characteristics would argue that Northern Asia was not populated from the New World at least, if not at all from the East.

Test
Sunday, December 19th, 2004, 03:02 AM
My crippled computer won't do pdf files so I will have to rely on the summary paragraph and the two maps.

If these genes did originate in Beringia, it doesn't necessarily mean that the people migrated from Beringia to the New World and then back again. It is possible to migrate and then go back again. It has been done by horses and wolves but what is the evidence for humans"

As I recall, the Na-Dene people, Algonquins for example, look Paleo-Mongoloid. There are two types of Eskimo. The coasal Alaskan Eskimo and the truely polar Eskimo. The Eskimo who inhabit the coastal regions of Alaska and its islands look much more Paleo-Mongoloid than do the Inuit, the more polar Eskimo. So, the evidence of physical characteristics would argue that Northern Asia was not populated from the New World at least, if not at all from the East.I'm not sure what you are saying. What it's saying is that the last ice age depopulated Siberia but there was a non-glacial refugia in Beringia and northwestern China. These two places repopulated northern Asia later. It seems to make sense because you would need cold adaptation (culturally, physically) to thrive in those places.

Ok, I see what you mean now. No, the paper is that saying that northern Asia was repopulated from the Americas. Beringia was cut off from both Americas and Asia during the ice age and was a refugia for stranded people. The paper is saying that northern Asia was repopulated from northeast Siberia by people such as the Chuckchi and from northwestern China. This supports my point that the "neo" characteristics developed in Siberia.

Test
Sunday, December 19th, 2004, 11:43 PM
At present the earliest people with a generalised East Asian cranial morphology are probably found in the Americas. Is it a possibility that migration across the Bearing Straits went in two directions and the first morphological Mongoloids evolved in the Americas?http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf#search='sinodont%20distribut ion'

I don't think it was a back migration. I think the fossils to be found to provide the missing link are in the permafrosts of Siberia. This people, the steppe hunters, were pushed south by the ice age, as well as being trapped in the Beringia refuge, and cut off in the Americas.

This basically reconciles the fossil and genetic and dental pattern questions that I've pondered over.

Sinodonty not out of Sundadonty, it seems now likely.
http://arts.anu.edu.au/arcworld/ippa/Abstracts_M_to_R.html
DUAL ORIGINS OF THE SOUTHEAST ASIANS FROM A DENTAL PERSPECTIVE

Hirofumi Matsumura
Sapporo Medical University, Japan

Population history of Southeast Asia seems complicated due to various migration processes and inter-blend of the population since the prehistoric time. The limitation of the prehistoric human remains and the uncertainty in their dating also add a problem to the study of this region. In general perspective, Southeast Asia was thought to be occupied by indigenous people, who are sometimes referred to as of Australo-Melanesian lineage, before the immigrants from North or East Asia widely spreading on this region (Callenfels, 1936; Mijsberg, 1940; Von Koenigswald, 1952; Coon, 1962; Jacob, 1967, 1975; Bellwood, 1987).  
However, there is different interpretation about these people based on the studies of dental morphology. The studies based on nonmetric dental traits by Turner (1989, 1990, 1992) demonstrated that both the early and the modern Southeast Asians display so-called "Sundadont" dental complex, while the Northeast Asians exhibit “Sinodont” complex. Turner considers the evolvement of present-day Southeast Asians is by local adaptation and not by admixture with North/East Asians.
The work of the present author based on the dental characteristics of the various population samples from Southeast Asia indicates a different trend from Turner’s studies. The present study calculated Smith's MMDs between the samples from the 25 populations based on 21 nonmetric traits. As a result, nonmetric dental traits observed in early Southeast Asians and Australo-Melanesians are regarded as the original "Proto-Sundadont" dental complex. The modern Southeast Asian specimens, which are situated in between "Proto-Sundadont" and "Sinodont" people, can be hybrids of Northeast Asians and original source of Southeast Asians that might share the common ancestor with the Australo-Melanesians.
To investigate the affinities of the populations based on the metric dental traits, further, Q-mode correlation coefficients between the 34 samples were calculated using the tooth crown diameters. The Australian aborigines, Melanesians, Negritos, Jomon, Ainu, Hoabinian and Mesolithic Southeast Asians, were grouped together indicating their close affinities. The metric dental traits common to the North Asians were observed in most of the modern Southeast Asian samples.
The present study based on the investigation of both the nonmetric and metric dental morphology supports the hypothesis stated by Bellwood (1987) that there was a diffusion of migrants from the Asian Continent, probably from southern China, into Southeast Asia since the Neolithic period. These people inter-blended with indigenous Australo-Melanesian stock as they diffused.

Agrippa
Monday, December 20th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Do you think it could make sense to argue that Palaeoasiatic types (Eskimids, Easter Sibirids) are the result of one part, modern progressive Mongolid (Sinid mainly) the result of the other and Tungid somewhat in between from a genetic point of view?

The interesting thing is that inside the Mongolids in the narrower sense, the difference between Tungids and Nordsinids is one of the greatest. So the question could arise whether this is the result of admixture (Europoid) in Nordsinids (which happened, the question is just if it was that significant especially in the East, what is probable but not that likely), or they are another form of specialization, a tendency which decreases when going South because of Weddoid and primitive Mongolid admixture + adaptation to subtropical and tropical climate and new social environment, but is not directly related to the Tungids.
Even the contrary would be true, there was a barrier between the Sinid core and Tungids and the Palaeoasiatic groups for a longer time.

Because the clear border is really interesting, directly to the relatively fine featured Nordsinids comes the Tungid, most extreme cold adapted core of the Mongolids...
The differences were also recognized and sometimes even exaggerated in the Chinese art.

Interesting are in this context the terracotta warriors which represent a diversity of early China, which can be still found in certain regions...

http://canadiancarlsons.com/users/sarahjames/images/terracotta%20warriors%202.JPG