PDA

View Full Version : Did Odin Exist?



Wulf
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 11:52 PM
The power of Wotan is a metaphysical potential available to each and every one of his people through a process of spiritual introspection and development. To properly appreciate the character and uses of this power, it is necessary to understand its metaphysical background.

To begin, we must develop a realization of the spiritual nature of the universe. The universe, as a whole, is a spiritually living being -- the ultimately supreme God, if you will. This is not the place for an examination of the motives and processes underlying the manifestations of this universal being. Let it suffice to say that our solar system is one small living part of that being, as a cell is one small living part of a larger organism.

The center of our solar system is, of course, the sun. What is often overlooked by modern man is the fact that the sun is more than the physical center; it is also the spiritual center. Life on the planet Earth is derived from, dependent upon, and expresses the sun's energy. Naturally, this energy is manifested in other ways as well: the moon supplies reflected energy which has seen subtly altered; the seas absorb, transform, and release that energy; plant life stores the energy in a profoundly altered form; etc.,etc. And, most importantly, each and every living human being is a repository for the sun's energy, and is blessed with the capacity for using that energy in a highly complex and creative way.

From the earliest times, man has recognized the various sources and centers of this spiritual energy from the sun, and has expressed this recognition in a process of deification of the natural features of the world and its surroundings (the moon, stars, etc.). For most peoples, the sun has played a central role in this process, as it should. Wotan represents the Teutonic attempt to deify and understand this primary source of spiritual energy.

To equate the designation of Wotan as a sun god with the idea that his worshippers view him simply as a giver of life and warmth, however, is to seriously misunderstand the matter. As an organism absorbs, transforms, and expresses the sun's energy, it partakes of the spiritual essence of the sun,, and moves in the direction of becoming one with that being on a metaphysical plane. Moreover, just as one kind of plant will share in this process in a way that differs from that of another kind of plant, so the various genetic strains of humanity each have their own way of expressing the sun's energy. The ancient Egyptians, for example, stressed the idea of Majesty, and this theme dominated every aspect of their lives. In contrast to this, the Zoroastrian tradition saw the sun as man's champion in the struggle against the forces of darkness. For a Christian, the sun represents a stern but protective father who will save his worshippers if they will only accept him and his ways. Examples could be cited almost endlessly, but the same implicit concept will be found again and again: the sun/deity is an all-powerful spiritual being that imposes his will on the people of the world. In the case of Wotan, however, the spiritual essence of the sun is seen in a significantly different way -- and it is from this that Wotan's power is derived.

Wotan stands alone as an evolving, honorable and aloof deity. In the mythologies of other religions, the sun god is presented as a complete, finished deity; Wotan learns and grows, and is ever striving to achieve new heights of power and wisdom. In other religions, the sun god is portrayed as being primarily concerned with enforcing the established order; Wotan is always seeking to create the new. The other sun gods present an arbitrary code of conduct to humanity and accept no questioning of its basis, or their own conduct; Wotan demands of his followers only that they be honorable - and applies this requirement to himself as well. And, perhaps most importantly, the sun gods of the other religions impose themselves upon their peoples, demanding obediance and allegiance, while Wotan stands apart and makes himself available only to those who choose his way and actively seek him out.

Of all the peoples of the world, the Teutons are alone in having experienced the miraculous and sublime process of evolutionary change that has enabled them to see the sun's energy as alive, evolving, and creative. The sun gods of other peoples were static from their inception - and therefore stillborn; their survival as objects of worship was made possible only by a grasping and hypocritical priesthood.

Unfortunately for humanity, Wotan's people lacked the courage of their convictions; they opted for the easy road, and accepted Christianity. Now, after centuries of betrayal, hypocrisy and revealed falsehood, his people are rejecting the Judeo-Christian lie and turning to their inner spiritual selves for truth and understanding -- and they are finding Wotan. There can be no more impressive demonstration of the creative power of Wotan than this.

We stand on the threshold of a new era, and what we see before us is the universe. As we carry the banner of our sun's spiritual energy to the farthest galaxies, we can take pride in the knowledge that we are the bringers of the seed of evolution, creativity, honor, and dignity.

http://www.artgemeinschaft.org/ewotsun.htm

Standhaftigkeit_
Saturday, December 4th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Sunna is the Sungoddess... Wotan does not represent the sun.

Beren
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 11:09 AM
Taken from http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl46.htm (http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/sl46.htm)

DID ODIN EXIST? http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/new.gif

by Sergei V. Rjabchikov

T. Heyerdahl and P. Lillieström (2001) believe that the Scandinavian god Odin was indeed a Proto-Slavonic king who lived near the Sea of Azov (now it is the Rostov-on-Don region, Russia) in 100 - 200 A.D. Then this king was forced out by the Romans from the area of the Don river and settled down in Scandinavia. This hypothesis is based on the data obtained during the excavations of the Russian-Norwegian archaeological expedition under the leadership of T. Heyerdahl at the town Azov, the Rostov-on-Don region, Russia, in 2001.

Did Odin exist? As has been shown by the author earlier (http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/sl30.htm) (The Interpretation of Some Sarmatian Motifs and Inscriptions), a Bosporan name, Ardinzianos (Ardinzian), consists of Scythian/Sarmatian ar 'Aryan', din 'day' and zian 'shine; light; radiance; the sun'; this name signifies 'An Aryan (by name) 'The daylight''. So the Proto-Slavonic name Din 'Day' (cf. the name Odin) might be spread among the Scythians and Sarmatians.

The mysterious river Smorodina mentioned in some Russian fairy-tales is indeed the Kuban river. In my opinion, the archaic Russian fairy-tales were composed in the Kuban area (now it is the Krasnodar region, Russia) (Rjabchikov 1998a, 1998b, 1998c). The Scythian and Sarmatian religious beliefs are preserved in the Slavonic folklore and decorative art (see, e.g., Rjabchikov 2002a, 2002b). In a Russian fairy-tale, Ivan Bykovich (Ivan, a Son of the Bull), a fiery (kalinovy in Russian) bridge at the Smorodina river is mentioned; in another variant of this fairy-tale, Burya-bogatyr' i Ivan korovy syn (The Hero Storm and Ivan, a Son of the Cow), a fiery bridge near the Black Sea is mentioned. I read the name Smorodina as S mor Odina 'Near the sea of Odin'. A market of Odintsov (Odintsovsky bazar in Russian) was located near one of branches of the Kuban river at the Taman' Peninsula from the time of the ancient Russian Tmutarakan' Principality (Soloviev 1992: 65). It is apparent that the name Odin is preserved in this place name. I conclude that the Black Sea once was named for Odin. One can suppose that this Odin lived initially near the Black Sea and the Kuban river, then he was settled down near the Sea of Azov. Why did it happen? The Bosporan king Sauromatus II ruled from 174 to 210 A.D. He won a victory over the Scythians and Siraki (a Sarmatian tribe) in 193 A.D., and as a result the Siraki left the Kuban area and were included in the Alani (Sarmatians) of the Don river (Koshelenko, Kruglikova and Dolgorukov 1984: 19; Trekhbratov 1997: 393, 415). It is felt that Odin was a ruler of those Siraki. Afterwards this ruler and his warriors were forced out by the Roman and Bosporan troops from the area of the Don river, and then this group of the Proto-Slavs migrated to Scandinavia.

Let us consider a Bosporan coin of Sauromatus II. It was presented at a web site of one of on-line numismatic shops. My own tracings of both sides of the coin are shown in figure 1.



http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/coin4.gif Figure 1.

Here the Bosporan king Sauromatus II is depicted; it is confirmed by the record with his title (king) and name.

Now one can examine the reverse. A horseman is represented, he is pierced with a spear. By this is meant that this hero was killed or at least lost the field. One can see the Greek letter B here as well. This warrior holds a torch (fire). Therefore it is safe to assume that the horseman on the picture is Odin (Din 'Day'), the king (chief) of the Siraki. The decoded figure is a key to his mystery.



REFERENCES

Heyerdahl, T. and P. Lillieström, 2001. Jakten på Odin. Oslo: J.M. Stenersens Forlag A.S.

Koshelenko, G.A., Kruglikova, I.T. and V.S. Dolgorukov (eds.), 1984. Antichnye gosudarstva Severnogo Prichernomor'ya. Moscow: Nauka.

Rjabchikov, S.V., 1998a. Kubanskie istoki russkikh skazok. Nasha Kuban', 14-21 August 1998, No. 24(36): 7.

Rjabchikov, S.V., 1998b. Tainstvennaya Tmutarakan'. Krasnodar: Torgovo-promyshlennaya palata Krasnodarskogo kraya.

Rjabchikov, S.V., 1998c. Delovye zapisi drevnikh russov. Dusha moya, September 1998, No. 18(35): 8.

Rjabchikov, S.V., 2002a. Arkheologiya skifov, sarmatov, drevnikh rusov i slavyansky fol'klor. In: S.D. Kryzhyts'ky (ed.) Suchasni problemy arkheologii. Kiev: The Institute of Archaeology of the National Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, pp. 214-5.

Rjabchikov, S.V., 2002b. Some Remarks on the Scythian and Sarmatian Religion. AnthroGlobe Journal: http://www.anthroglobe.ca/docs/Scythian_religion.pdf.

Soloviev, V.A., 1992. Suvorov na Kubani. Krasnodar.

Trekhbratov, B.A. (ed.), 1997. Entsiklopedichesky slovar' po istorii Kubani s drevneyshikh vremen do oktyabrya 1917 goda. Krasnodar: Edvi.

Copyright © 2002 by Sergei V. Rjabchikov. All Rights Reserved.

Published 21 May 2002; revised 23 May 2002.

Sergei V. Rjabchikov, Krasnodar, RUSSIA.

How to cite the articles of "THE SLAVONIC ANTIQUITY" Home Page in printed articles: like articles. Maintain the link if citing in the World Wide Web. Notice italics on the homepage name:

Rjabchikov, Sergei V., 2002. Did Odin Exist? "THE SLAVONIC ANTIQUITY" Home Page ( (http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/sl46.htm)http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl46.htm (http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/sl46.htm)).



"THE SLAVONIC ANTIQUITY" Home Page (http://public.kubsu.ru/%7Eusr02898/slavonic.htm)

Corvin
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Hallo
Accordingn to book:
The Norsemen Myths and Legends, Guerber H.A., Senate Publ., 1994
Odin was historicaly existing at about 300 after Rabbi Jesuah, and he was coming from the area of Odense, in Denmark.
However, I remember that I also in the past found some bibliography that he might have come from Russia or Asia Minor. I cannot remember the Author or the book so I will leave this information to the sphere of speculation.

Mythologically we know that Odin gave us the Runes. Regarding the history of the runes, we know that runes also correspond to ancient Hellenic letters. This does not mean that he was Greek himself or Skithean or whatever, but tell us, that his origin, was involving an educational system that was very old indeed.

Corvin

Phlegethon
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Of course Odor exists:


http://www.tkovisual.com/Customers/Odor%20Eaters.jpg

Awar
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 03:31 PM
Thanks Beren. Very interesting.
The word 'Odin' itself resembles most the Slavic word 'One'
might mean the first god, or the one god.

Kleitor
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Yeah, "BACILEWC CAYRO(M)ATOY" means "Of King Savromatos" in Greek.Many Thracian tribes,under the influence of Greek cities of Thrace,used greek language on their coins.

"Savromatos" means "lizzard-eyed" in Greek as well.The name is definetely greek (not hellenized).

Odin Biggles
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 05:06 PM
IM RIGHT HERE !!!

LOOK !! :scream:lol

Master-of-Swords
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 05:20 PM
There is nothing new in attempts at humanising the gods: it is as old as the recorded myths.Snorri Sturluson started this process with his Poetic or Younger Edda.
I would suspect that his reason for doing so was to detract from the divine nature of our gods because of his xtian beliefs.

Krampus
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 05:56 PM
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai102_folder/102_articles/102_heyerdahl_storfjell.html

Here's another link. Has anyone read Heyerdahl's work The Search for Odin? I'd be interested in hearing about possible tribal descendents.

King Yngvar
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 06:34 PM
I have to say this is most likely just Christian propaganda dating back to Snorri Sturlusson...

Oskorei
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 07:18 PM
A nice little book on the subject is The Cult of Othin by H M Chadwick (its old but well-researched). Chadwick is pretty certain that Odin was not an indigenous god in Scandinavia, but introduced later on. Possibly together with runes, sacrificial hangings and cremation.

By comparing historical sources like Tacitus and Beowulf, Chadwick reaches the conclusion that Odin was not around among the Swedes in the year 50 AD, but definitely around in the sixth century. He doesnt present a historical person as Oden though, at least not as far as I remember. If there is any interest I will look up the book again.

Oskorei
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 07:27 PM
One thing we ought to remember when it comes to these questions though, is that the pagan worldview differed from our own. The concept of the avatar in Hinduism is wellknown, but similar ideas are found in most paganisms. To the more esotericist pagan, the gods are not persons, but more archetypes or energies (this is the reason some of the last Asatruar called themselves Gudlaussir menn, godless men. They realized this esotericist truth, and that the gods were "in them"). It is possible for a mortal to become one with the archetype, and to "become the god".

I might use the Egyptian pharao Ramses as an example. During one battle he fought his enemies with such furor and terror that they screamed in fear "He is the God of War", and in a sense he was (well, it may have been some other pharao, but thats not the issue here). He was one with the energy or archetype that was the Wargod.

So Odin being a man and Odin being a god doesnt make each other impossibilities. Both may be true, at the same time. There might even have been several Odins during history, according to the pagan mindset, other mortals who became one with the eternal archetype.

Northern Paladin
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 08:22 PM
If Odin existed where is he now?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 12:42 AM
The idea that Odin was a real king and came from the Black Sea region is an old idea. Coon mentions it in his Races of Europe and he did not originate it. It seems only the cast of characters change, Coon mentions Illyrians, as well as the dates change. I believe this was all based on linguistic ideas of the 19th Century.

Another little point, what are proto-Slavs? The dates given, 200 B.C. or so are many years away from the first Slavs and they originated (correct me if I am wrong) near and to the East of the Baltic countries. So in terms of time and space, how can these writers talk about proto-Slavs?

Razmig
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 09:00 AM
Odin a swarthy hooked nose Dinaric or Armenoid from the Caucus?

The Vikings traveled all the lands, theyre boats came from Phoenicia, theyre drink (mead) is a copy of the Phrygian, their culture from the Slavs and Scytho-Sarmatians...Could it be the Vikings were just a mix of pirates? =)

Nordic Dream Maiden
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 08:27 PM
It is supposed that Odin was the chief of a tribe of barbarians which dwelt on the banks of the Lake Maeotis, till the fall of the Mithridates and the arms of Pompey menaced the North with servitude. From the frontiers of the Asiatic Sarmatia into Sweden with design of having freedom of religion and a people, which in some remote age, might be subservient to his immortal revenge; when his invincible Goths armed to chastise the oppressors of mankind.

When the Goths reached the north Black Sea area, they discovered great fertile ground, rivers to travel, plenty of game and fish, good weather for most types of grains and produce…But the Goths withstood all these temptations and still adhered to a life of idleness, poverty and rapine.

Shapur
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 10:56 PM
Sarmatians and Scythians are black haired Iranians!!! :D

Beren
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Sarmatians and Scythians are black haired Iranians!!! :D
What about the Tokharians or the Kushans? They also had a great amount of fair-haired amongst them, as the mummies and the chinese sources proved. When I was in Takharistan (which derives from the Tokharians) I noticed some blonde and reddish-blond people too, especially around the villages. What is it with your black-hair fetish? :D

Razmig
Friday, December 17th, 2004, 07:41 AM
What about the Tokharians or the Kushans? They also had a great amount of fair-haired amongst them, as the mummies and the chinese sources proved. When I was in Takharistan (which derives from the Tokharians) I noticed some blonde and reddish-blond people too, especially around the villages. What is it with your black-hair fetish? :D
That pre-dates the Aryans. They came from Anatolia.

Aryanism did not spring from the Iranian plateu as Iranians would like to beleive.

Shapur
Friday, December 17th, 2004, 12:25 PM
What about the Tokharians or the Kushans? They also had a great amount of fair-haired amongst them, as the mummies and the chinese sources proved. When I was in Takharistan (which derives from the Tokharians) I noticed some blonde and reddish-blond people too, especially around the villages. What is it with your black-hair fetish? :D

We have on one side some mummies and on the other side we have the Tocharian texts. Both are in the Tarim valley. I read some days ago some good texts about this stuff. That they should be fair or reddish-blond people is not true, or not proofed. Some anthropologists say that they have eastern and western skull characteristics. There are general 2 theories.
The north theory, that they should came directly from the northern stepps, or that they should came from the west. This is today Bactria and Sogdia.
They did also some genetic tests, but they didn`t give them a real answer.
But for some months they did again a new test and now they have really strong connections to the Kurds. Also the Uyghurs there have a part of Middle Eastern genetic. Their clothes showed a connection to traditonal Iranian and Celtic clothes. So we can say nothing to yet. Only a picture of some mumies will say us nothing. Even when these mummies would be from the heart of Europe, we must proof if they are the Tocharians or not.
@Razming: There are many theoris.... ;)

cyrusdariush
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 08:13 PM
i dont know alot of odin but i know that we have thor ir our own religion.

shapour do you remember in sanskrit and the holy fire book of zoroastrin about the lightning hammer and thor who strikes down all the baddies.

i also remember that the egyptians had this belief

Susisaari
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 10:38 PM
One thing we ought to remember when it comes to these questions though, is that the pagan worldview differed from our own. The concept of the avatar in Hinduism is wellknown, but similar ideas are found in most paganisms. To the more esotericist pagan, the gods are not persons, but more archetypes or energies (this is the reason some of the last Asatruar called themselves Gudlaussir menn, godless men. They realized this esotericist truth, and that the gods were "in them"). It is possible for a mortal to become one with the archetype, and to "become the god".


Very good point. I suppose most pre-Christian Europeans actually saw their gods and myths as metaphors rather than literal truths.

Religious fanaticism and dogmatism and literal interpretation of holy texts is a Middle Eastern tradition shared by Judaism and its two main branches, Christianity and Islam.

Susisaari
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 10:41 PM
DID ODIN EXIST?


No.



T. Heyerdahl


Heyerdahl was a superstitious idiot.



and P. Lillieström (2001) believe that the Scandinavian god Odin was indeed a Proto-Slavonic king


And that's why Slavic nationalists want to believe this bullshit, so that they can claim that the Slavs had a glorious past.

Theudanaz
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 12:18 AM
Joo...you are right.
Anyway, whether "proto-slavonic" or not, this etymology business is a bit muddled. Oldest records have Odin's name with a bilabial semivowel "wod(a/i)nR" = "wodanaz" (d is continuant, dh as in "this"). Linguists think this name is definitely Germanic, linked to the word woda- "mad, furious, possessed." If Odin was "proto-slavonic" (if it was at a time of much linguistic distinction even) we can tell that his true "proto-slavonic" name has not been preserved, unless perhaps in translation of proto-(northwest)-Germanic. Needless to say, he was a latecomeer to the IE pantheon of the area, probably a result of hero- or king-worship.

I'm sure there are other better sources for this recent sensational discussion, e.g. northvegr.




No.



Heyerdahl was a superstitious idiot.



And that's why Slavic nationalists want to believe this bullshit, so that they can claim that the Slavs had a glorious past.

Lena_rus
Wednesday, December 29th, 2004, 04:38 AM
I think Odin did exist really...
Dont forget about another famous Norwegian king Harald Hardrada who used to live in Novgorod.
Btw, I have an interesting information to share - there is a town in Russia, called Volhov its very close to "viking towns" Novgorod (now Velikiy"Great" Novgorod), Viborg, Ladoga etc. I just thought Volhov is really sounds like Valhalla;)

Edwin
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005, 12:33 AM
Odin seems to me to be nothing more than the ideal gracile-nordic male who owes his position not to his strength, but to his cultivated feminine aspect. Thor is of course the ideal UP.

Oskorei
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Odin seems to me to be nothing more than the ideal gracile-nordic male who owes his position not to his strength, but to his cultivated feminine aspect. Thor is of course the ideal UP.
I like this racialization of the Aesir gods, it's a novel take on the subject :thumbsup

Thor being UP I agree with, he even had red hair if I am not misinformed.

I don't agree with Odin being gracile-nordic however, his nature as a dark god of war, death and magic would make me picture him more as a Kurgan actually. And he was not only a god of seidr and deception/cunning (which is consistent with a feminine aspect), but also a god of war and royalty (masculine aspects). Does anyone have a description of Odins looks?

Theudanaz
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Odin seems to me to be nothing more than the ideal gracile-nordic male who owes his position not to his strength, but to his cultivated feminine aspect. Thor is of course the ideal UP.


Thor might indeed be UP, probably Bruenn, with his bright red hair and powerful frame (this might be just an association with lightning). I don't know that Odin is described much except for many disguises, or having a cloak, a brimmed hat which covers his features, and of course a missing eye, often seeming as a common wanderer. He seems often portrayed pictorially as elderly example of Halstatt or Anglo-Saxon.

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005, 08:31 AM
And that's why Slavic nationalists want to believe this bullshit, so that they can claim that the Slavs had a glorious past.
And why would the Slavic nationalists need this to claim a glorious past? If you knew anything about Slavic Paganism you would realize that it is very very similar to Germanic Paganism and Keltic Paganism. Slavs don't need anything. Their ancestors were just as "glorious" as the Germanics.

Oskorei
Wednesday, January 12th, 2005, 09:45 AM
I found the source for my claim that Odin was Kurgan of some sort, but it is slightly disappointing. In the first issue of Tyr magazine, Michael Moynihan makes a connection between Hagen/Högni of the Niebelungen, and Odin (either as a champion of Odin, or some sort of avatar). And Högni is described in this way in the Thidrek Saga:

"Högni... had black hair that hung down with some curl in it. He was long-faced, and had a large nose and hanging brows. He had a dark beard and he was dark in coloration everywhere. His face was grim and he had only one eye. He was rather fierce and bold. He was tall and stout in all his limbs, and when he put on his armor, he was noble in appearance, but still frightening." In the Niebelungen, he is described as grey-haired though. Anyway, Högni is hardly Nordic, whatever he is.

Edwin
Friday, January 14th, 2005, 09:33 PM
And he was not only a god of seidr and deception/cunning (which is consistent with a feminine aspect), but also a god of war and royalty (masculine aspects).

I think of war and royalty both as feminine aspects from the more archaic Celtic and Japanese perspectives. Think of the goddess Medb.

Edwin
Friday, January 14th, 2005, 09:36 PM
He seems often portrayed pictorially as elderly example of Halstatt or Anglo-Saxon.

This is exactly what I was thinking, and no exceptions really come to mind.

Edwin
Friday, January 14th, 2005, 10:06 PM
In the first issue of Tyr magazine, Michael Moynihan makes a connection between Hagen/Högni of the Niebelungen, and Odin (either as a champion of Odin, or some sort of avatar)... Anyway, Högni is hardly Nordic, whatever he is.

A good find though, because it still has him (Odin-Hogni) described like some sort of death goddess. It reminds me of some of the descriptions of the Chinese death deities. Perhaps like Xiwangmu (Queen Mother of The West) or some other.

Oskorei
Friday, January 14th, 2005, 10:33 PM
A good find though, because it still has him (Odin-Hogni) described like some sort of death goddess. It reminds me of some of the descriptions of the Chinese death deities. Perhaps like Xiwangmu (Queen Mother of The West) or some other.
I still don't see the reason for claiming Oden as a feminine god. In the Indo-Aryan religions, it is common with masculine death gods, and most war gods are such as well. There is usually a female counterpart to each of these gods, but in a secondary position (as in death gods; Oden takes care of the warriors, Hel takes the rest).

Both Chinese and Japanese mythology are outside of the Indo-Aryan "family" and cannot be used as examples really. Concerning Celtic mythology, it is part of the "family" though, but I am not very well informed about it. Are there no Celtic death gods of a masculine quality?

Edwin
Friday, January 14th, 2005, 11:39 PM
Both Chinese and Japanese mythology are outside of the Indo-Aryan "family" and cannot be used as examples really. Concerning Celtic mythology, it is part of the "family" though, but I am not very well informed about it. Are there no Celtic death gods of a masculine quality?

Sorry. I should not have used the Chinese and Japanese examples, but the stack of asian mythology books in front of me proved too tempting. There are some vague similarities between Japanese and Indo-European mythologies though.

As for Celtic mythology, I was incorrect. In place of Medb should be The Morrigan, who in the Cath Mag Tuired functions much like Lug (the Celtic Odin, more or less.) He rants and raves just like she rants and raves. Lug behaves like her in that his behavior is improper, and presupposes his relative weakness. But they are both royal figures, and when not acting like children, are engaged in calculation and ruling (though the Morrigan does so as Queen Medb.)

I see the aspects of war and sovereignty shared by the two, coupled with Odin's character, as enough justification. I can't really take it any further.

Theudanaz
Saturday, January 15th, 2005, 05:31 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1353343.stm

Saturday, 26 May, 2001, 15:05 GMT 16:05 UK Thor searches for Odin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1350000/images/_1353343_bbc300viking.jpg
Heyerdahl has based his theory on ancient Icelandic texts


By the BBC's Caroline Wyatt The legendary Norwegian explorer, Thor Heyerdahl, is on the trail of another legend - the Viking God, Odin.

He believes Odin may have been a real king in the 1st Century BC in what is now southern Russia, before his tribe was driven out by the Romans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/startquote.gif
We'll carry on working to find material that will either support or destroy this theory
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/endquote.gif
Sergei Lukyashko
Russian archaeologist
He has funded a major archaeological dig near the Sea of Azov, to discover whether any links can be found with Odin and his tribe.

Mr Heyerdahl is famed for his expeditions in the footsteps of early civilisations, notably his Kon Tiki expedition of 1947, when he sailed from Peru to Polynesia. At the age of 86 he shows no signs of flagging.

Ancient clues

Mr Heyerdahl's theory is based on clues gleaned from a 13th Century Icelandic saga, which he says suggest that Odin and his tribe really did exist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1350000/images/_1353343_asov_150.gif

The landscape by the River Don where the dig is based is harsh imposing landscape - fit to be the birthplace of a legendary Viking god.

The river links the area to the Black Sea and it has long been a busy trading post.

Local archaeologists have found evidence of a settlement that is more than 2,000 years old and they are helping analyse the finds on this dig.

'Authentic fragments''

Sergei Lukyashko is in charge of the Russian archaeologists, and says he finds Mr Heyerdahl's theory fascinating.

"Neither Thor nor I are so naive as to suggest that we'll find actual traces of Odin here, but we've already found authentication for several fragments of the sagas," he said.

"We'll carry on working to find material that will either support or destroy this theory."

Renowned horsemen

Not far from Asov, young Cossack boys train for the army.

This has always been land that breeds warriors - the Cossacks are Russia's best-known horsemen - so it seems appropriate that the Norse god of war - and his tireless horse, may have lived here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1350000/images/_1353343_bbc150hand.jpg
There is evidence of settlements more than 2,000 years old




However, Russian historians are sceptica.

Professor Sergei Karpov at Moscow university says this time, Thor Heyerdahl may have gone a step too far.

"He is a very creative...even if he's not right," he said.

Time limit

The Norwegian archaeologists on the dig have only a few weeks left before they have to return home.

For Bjoernar Storfjell, it is not so much proving a theory that is important, but the chance to work in the former Soviet Union.

Already, Roman vases and Grecian urns are piling up beside the site - amid tantalising shards from even earlier civilisations.

Whatever else they find, this dig has added yet another chapter to Thor Heyerdahl's odyssey to find the links between ancient peoples that lie beneath the earth.

Lena_rus
Saturday, January 15th, 2005, 07:29 AM
And why would the Slavic nationalists need this to claim a glorious past? If you knew anything about Slavic Paganism you would realize that it is very very similar to Germanic Paganism and Keltic Paganism. Slavs don't need anything. Their ancestors were just as "glorious" as the Germanics.
Hehe, these finns just dont like us, Slavs:D

Lena_rus
Saturday, January 15th, 2005, 07:35 AM
btw, Odin in Russian means One, Loner or Alone. I find it quite interesting.

Im now trying to study those similarities between Russian and Sanskrit, perhaps Im just start to being paranoid:P

Psychonaut
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 03:56 AM
Does anyone have information leading to an online copy of Jung's "Wotan" essay. Or, alternatively, can anyone upload a copy of it if you happen to have a pdf?

:hveðrungur:
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 07:45 AM
I only have a copy in Paperback. You might want to search Soulseek and obscure websites, you never know if someone has it on some Geocities website. I'll ask a few friends and get back to you though.

P.S. First time I've ever seen you in the Germanic Heathenry forum, good to see another one for the good guys on Skadi :thumbup :D

Psychonaut
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 12:18 PM
Thanks, I hadn't thought to check Soulseek. I appreciate you checking around as well.

:hveðrungur:
Wednesday, August 9th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Well I've not been able to find anything so far but there are a few folks I talk to online who have quite a large collection of .pdf e-books who have not been online for a month or so. Next time I see them online I'll ask if they have it and I'll send it to you.

Psychonaut
Thursday, August 10th, 2006, 12:11 AM
Well I've not been able to find anything so far but there are a few folks I talk to online who have quite a large collection of .pdf e-books who have not been online for a month or so. Next time I see them online I'll ask if they have it and I'll send it to you.
I certainly appreciate it. I've been doing periodic checks on Soulseek and Ares, but have yet to locate it. Interestingly enough, there is a Spanish language version of the essay floating around on Ares, but that is of less use to me than a German version. Thanks again!

Blutwölfin
Thursday, August 10th, 2006, 06:14 AM
Carl Gustav Jung on Wotan

'What is curious is that an ancient god of storm and frenzy, the long
quiescent Wotan, should awake, like an extinct volcano, to new
activity, in a civilised country that had long outgrown the Middle
Ages. We have seen him come to life in the German youth movement, and
right at the beginning, the blood of several sheep was shed in honour
of his resurrection.

'Armed with rucksack and lute, blond youths and girls were to be seen
restlessly wandering on every road from the North Cape to Sicily,
faithful votaries of the roving god. Later, towards the end of the
Weimar Republic, the wandering role was taken over by thousands of
unemployed. By 1933 they wandered no longer, but marched in their
hundreds of thousands. The Hitler movement literally brought the whole
of Germany to its feet, from five-year-olds to veterans, and produced
the spectacle of a nation migrating from one place to another. Wotan
the Wanderer was on the move.

'Wotan is a restless wanderer who creates unrest and stirs up strife
and works magic. He was soon changed by Christianity into the devil,
and only lived on in fading local traditions as a ghostly hunter who
was seen with his retinue (the Wild Hunt) flickering like a will o'
the wisp through the stormy night.


'The German youths who celebrated the solstice with sheep sacrifices
were not the first to hear a rustling in the primeval forest of the
unconscious. They were anticipated by Nietzsche, Schuler, Stefan
George, and Ludwig Klages. The literary tradition of Germany has a
classical stamp that cannot easily be got rid of; every interpretation
of intoxication and exuberance is apt to be taken back to classical
models, to Dionysus.

'No doubt it sounds better to academic ears to interpret these things
as Dionysus, but Wotan might be a more correct interpretation. He is
the god of storm and frenzy, the unleasher of passions and the lust of
battle; moreover he is a superlative magician and artist in illusion
who is versed in all secrets of the occult.
'We are convinced that the modern world is a reasonable place, basing
our opinion on economic, political, and psychological factors. I
venture the heretical suggestion that the unfathomable depths of
Wotan's character explain more of National Socialism (Nazism) than all
three reasonable factors put together. There is no doubt that each of
these factors explains an important aspect of what is going on in
Germany, but Wotan explains yet more.

'Perhaps we may sum up this general phenomenon as 'Ergriffenheit' - a
state of being seized or possessed. The term postulates not only an
'Ergriffener' (one who is seized) but also an Ergreifer (one who
seizes). Wotan is an 'Ergreifer' of men, and, unless one wishes to
deify Hitler - which indeed has actually happened - Wotan is really
the only explanation. It is true that Wotan shares this possession
quality with his cousin Dionysus, but Dionysus seems to have exercised
his influence mainly on women. The maenads were a species of female
storm-trooper, and according to mythical reports were dangerous
enough. Wotan confined himself to the Beserkers, who found their
vocation as the blackshirts of mythical kings.

'It seems to me that Wotan hits the mark as an hypothesis. Apparently
he really was only asleep in the Kyffhauser mountain until the ravens
called him and announced the break of day. He is a fundamental
attribute of the German psyche, an irrational psychic factor which
acts on the high pressure of civilisation like a cyclone and blows it
away. The Wotan-worshippers seem to have judged things more correctly
than the worshippers of reason. Apparently everyone had forgotten that
Wotan is a Germanic factor of first importance, the truest expression
and unsurpassed personification of a fundamental quality that is
particularly characteristic of the Germans.

'The emphasis on the Germanic race, the Germanic heritage, blood and
soil, the ride of the Valkyries, Jesus as a blond and blue-eyed hero -
all this is the indispensable scenery for the drama that is taking
place and at bottom they all mean the same thing: a god has taken
possession of the Germans and their house is filled with a 'mighty
rushing wind'.

'It was not in Wotan's nature to linger on and show signs of old age.
He simply disappeared when the times turned against him, and remained
invisible for more than a thousand years, working anonymously and
indirectly. Archetypes are like river-beds which dry up when the water
deserts them, but which it can find again at any time. An archetype is
like an old watercourse along which the water of life has flowed for
centuries, digging a deep channel for itself. The longer it has flowed
in this channel the more likely it is that sooner or later the water
will return to its old bed.

'We are driven to conclude that Wotan must, in time, reveal not only
the restless, violent, stormy side of his character, but also his
ecstatic and mantic qualities. National Socialism will not be the last
word. Things must be concealed in the background which we cannot
imagine at present, but we may expect them to appear in the course of
the future.'


Jung had much more than just an academic interest in Wodhanaz, in fact
he came to believe that this god is the true deity of the Germanic
peoples of Europe. Of particular interest in this regard was a dream
Jung had the night his mother died. In his autobiography, 'Memories,
dreams, reflections', Jung writes:

'The night before her death I had a frightening dream. I was in a
dense, gloomy forest; fantastic, gigantic boulders lay about among
huge jungle-like trees. It was a heroic, primeval landscape. Suddenly
I heard a piercing whistle that seemed to resound through the whole
universe. My knees shook. Then there were crashings in the
undergrowth, and a gigantic wolfhound with a fearful, gaping maw burst
forth. At the sight of it, the blood froze in my veins. It tore past
me, and I suddenly knew: the Wild Huntsman had commanded it to carry
away a human soul. I awoke in deadly terror, and the next morning I
received the news of my mother's passing.


'Seldom has a dream so shaken me, for upon superficial consideration
it seemed to say that the devil had fetched her. But to be accurate
the dream said that it was the Wild Huntsman, the 'Grunhutl', or
Wearer of the Green Hat, who hunted with his wolves that night. It was
Wotan, the god of my Alemannic forefathers, who had gathered my mother
to her ancestors.
'It was the Christian missionaries who made Wotan into a devil. In
himself he is an important god - a Mercury or Hermes, as the Romans
correctly realised, a nature spirit who returned to life again in the
Grail legend. Thus the dream says that the soul of my mother was taken
into that greater territory of the self which lies beyond the segment
of Christian morality, taken into that wholeness of nature and spirit
in which conflicts and contradictions are resolved.

'I went home immediately, and while I rode in the night train I had a
feeling of great grief, but in my heart of hearts I could not be
mournful, and this for a strange reason: during the entire journey I
continually heard dance music, laughter, and jollity, as though a
wedding were being celebrated.


'This paradox can be explained if we suppose that at one moment death
was being represented from the point of view of the ego, and at the
next from that of the psyche (soul). In the first
case it appeared as a catastrophe; that is how it so often strikes us,
as if wicked and pitiless powers had put an end to a human
life....from another point of view, however, death appears as a joyful
event. In the light of eternity, it is a wedding, a 'mysterium
coniunctionis'. The soul attains, as it were, its missing half, it
achieves wholeness.'

Psychonaut
Friday, August 11th, 2006, 12:36 AM
Thank you very much Blutwölfin! Is this the entire essay?

Chatte
Monday, January 19th, 2009, 12:23 AM
Odin DOES exist.
Ragnarok has not yet come. When Ragnarök comes - the time when the world will be destroyed and Odin will be eaten by the Fenrir wolf - then the sun is described to turn black and die just like the stars. If you look to the sky, this didn't happen yet. So Ragnarok has not come. It will happen most probably in some billion years. Until then, Odin will continue to live. Gods don't mature so quickly, because the apples of Iduna keep them young.
And gods don't just die if people stop to worship them. Odin lived BEFORE humans were created.

Now Odin being a human king.. I also think it is likely. Odin always liked (and likes ?) to turn into a human shape in once and a while. He did it many many times. He also slept with many human women and had children with them. Any Germanic might descend from Odin in a small part. Usually Odin appears as a lonesome Wanderer. But he can actually be anything. Just remember when we wanted sleep with the giantess Rinda, who should give birth to a child who would avenge his killed son Baldur. He first came to her as a warrior ... and after she turned him down, he came as a blacksmith, and once again she didn't like to sleep with him. Finally he appeared as a medicine woman. When Rinda later fell ill, the disguised Odin said he had medicine with which to cure her but it would cause a violent reaction. On advice from Odin Rinda was tied to her bed. Odin then proceeded to rape her. From the rape was born Wole who would later avenge Odins son Balderus.
Now what do we see from all the old stories? Odin is a master of magic. Odin can be anything. Any type of human, any type of animal or plant..he could appear anywhere in any place. And maybe he used to be a human king for a while. Maybe he wanted to learn to know more about us ?
Nowadays he might not appear as much as he did in former times. Why should he care for his human children if they are now praying to other foreign (semitic) gods ? Or even believe in NOTHING at all ? I could understand if he doesnt visit us so much at the moment. Maybe nowadays he likes to spend more time with his Valhalla warriors that live with him instead of worrying about his children who became Christians ?
Still: It can happen again, he may travel to Midgard and visit us, any time he feels like !

So watch out whenever you meet a stranger. You never know if you are just dealing with ODIN himself :)
Hail Wotan!

blackantlers
Monday, January 19th, 2009, 12:50 AM
I know for a fact that Odin exists. The Allfather exists in my Blood, bone and Folk. He (and all of the Aryan Gods/Goddesses) exist to me because of my Faith. Once you start to question Faith, religion becomes pointless. When you start looking for proof to justify your Faith it becomes more of scientific method that a living religion. Reality is based on perception and if one perceives/feels that the Holy Forces are real then that holds true/Tru for that person.

Odin Hail.

Ulf
Monday, January 19th, 2009, 01:20 AM
Faith, meh.

Faith: not wanting to know what is true.

Dreyrithoka
Monday, January 19th, 2009, 03:35 AM
Two things:

1) This looks like 'twas a great thread all those years ago, and has been quite informative.

2) This is the single largest bump of a thread I have seen in years.

SwordOfTheVistula
Monday, January 19th, 2009, 03:40 AM
Through faith in Odin alone hast this glorious thread RISEN FROM THE DEAD!

KenDoig
Wednesday, July 6th, 2011, 09:36 PM
Pure rubbish. Odin was not called "Odin" until North-Germanic lost "w" before rounded vowels, "o" "u" and analogically in umlauted forms of those words. This happened around 700 AD. Heyerdahl knowingly lied to create sensationalism. He claims that Odin was from the Azzeri people and "azzeri" is etymologically related to æsir,asgard. Rubbish. Ass was the Ngmc form which like ingvaeonic, lost nasals before spirants, but only before "s" in Ngmc. OE word for a pagan god was "os", plural, a strong i-stem noun, the protoGmc forms (nom case) were *ansuz, plural "ansiwiz" The "i" caused umlaut in the plural, and westGmc went through a process of z-deletion around 500AD, thus yielding the west-saxon OE forms "os" plural "ese". OldNorse did not undergo z-deletion, the z is seen in æsiR, via rhotocism.
To compare Heyerdahl's blatantly moronic theory, he says that Odin, Asgard, Ashof, æsir are cognate to the Udi people, the sea of Azov means Ashof, and æsir is from the Azzeri (or Azerri) people. He was a real man around the time of Christ. The norse words he uses are anachronistic, did not come into existence until about 600-800 AD. The closer-to-the-original forms in OE and English Woden, from PGmc *Wodinaz, *Wodenaz. "*wod" meaning frenzied. An ancestor of this word is still found in modern dictionaries, "wood", no relation to "wood" as in "firewood". Woden, a (born c. 0 AD)latecomer to the Germanic pantheon was probably a deified warrior-chieftan from the island of Fyn/Funen in DK. He was not Scandinavian or westGmc, but proto-northwest Gmc. His late entry explains why the Gmc tribes who departed prior, like the Goths, Vandals, Teutons and the mysterios Kimbri did not worship him and he was only ardently revered in the Germanic urheimat, Scaninavia and later tribes that issued there from, like the westGmc Angles and Jutes who occupied Jutland and thus brought Woden with them to Britain. People must compare the earliest known forms from the same time-period for comparison. The idiot Vinci who wrote the book "Homer in the Baltic". He gives modern Germanic (and Baltic IE, and nonIE Fennic) toponyms a Homeric Greek etymology, many of the place, like Fårö to Pharos, had not even been named such until 3000 years after the Trojan war. He states, accurately, that the Achaeans were nordic Indo-Europeans, true. But he says that they were from the Baltic, wrong. The Hallstatt Nordic race comes from the higher latitude West-Asian steppelands N of the Black and Caspian Seas. Nordics, pure Hallstatt Nordics are fully metrically and morphologically Mediterraneans who became depigmented by northerly climatic conditions and selective mating. Pure Med's about 5% carry the genes for hair- and eye-blondism, this was brought out in their Urheimat over many millenia. Most Northern Europeans are Nordish, not Nordic, they are a mixture of IE-Hallstatts and non-IE blond upperpaleolithic survivors native to NW Europe. The IE's incorporated them, bred with them, the rest his history. The only place that is predominately dolichocephalic, Hallstatt Nordic is Sweden, where 70% of the population is of the unmixed Iron-Age, IE-Nordics. Large %'s are found in the rest of Scandinavia and significant minorities in Holland, Belgium and Eastern England and Scotland. Also found in Poland, Russia, etc. Go to my blog, use the search-engine to look up these subjects. www.proto.germanic.com

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 02:19 AM
I don't think either that the nordic myth are tribal myth (tribal history).

They are far more serious and bigger.

From my point of view they describe and explain the worldview of ancient germanic people. They used an image-language (not definition as science) to explain it and it is by far more memorable.

To understand myth and read myth one has to study it and immerse oneself into myth. Then after a while certain keys emerge which make it easier to understand.

I also think that this myth are multi-explainabe. They not only explain one thing but several things. That might be that at a certain level everything is interconnected and certain pattern are repeated in several areas not related to the superficial observer.

As the design of the cosmos is intelligent the same blue-print may have been used. (or if you want, certain celestial entities left their fingerprints or are still alive in phenomena).

Odin as one of the earliest blueprints (archetypes, Gods etc) will be found in many areas. One can say he is a representant of consciousness, which shapes almost everything (the everything is the other essential part: energy/matter)

For example you might find the three brothers(Odin, Ve,Vili) in atoms as proton, electron and neutron. That is a way he shaped it. You also might find him in the spirituell design of men in the human soul, spirit soul and Godsoul.

The Godsoul is manifesting as reason, conscience, consciousness, ((if you take others also love, compassion, peace etc).

Therefore Odin does still exist als always until the dawn of time.

In humans his part is in the state of 'Goetterdaemmerung', meaning of sleep. He has to be awakened in humans to expierence him.

His presence can also be evoked when in the right state of consciousness.

Ocko
Thursday, July 7th, 2011, 02:23 AM
Its quite a time ago that it was asked but one can find Jungs 'Wotan' essay at the website:

Nazi.org.uk

Kauz R. Waldher
Saturday, November 12th, 2011, 03:26 AM
Its quite a time ago that it was asked but one can find Jungs 'Wotan' essay at the website:

Nazi.org.uk

In which his opinion was that Hitlers Germany was not christian. I've been battling it out with all these guys who say that "if i'm not with them, i'm against all of them". They claim to have a "non-yid" (their terminology) form of christianity that IS NOT "Identity". So, is it Zoroastrian then? I'm confused.

Ocko
Saturday, November 12th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Zorosaster was definitely non-jewish. He was persian or Iranian (Iran= Aryan).

Jews invaded Iran and destroyed as they did with many countries and people. They are hellbound on enslaving white nations.

In the west they invented xchristianity to form a slave religion and then push it on western people. Over the 100s of years they succeeded.

Time is changing and the old Gods come back to free their people. The people who are willing to be free (and that is no easy task, make no mistake about it) will be freed.

Zoroasterism was a valid aryan teaching for free people.

Hitler tried to free germanic people from the enslavement of Jews. He lost. But he is not the only nor the last attempt.

Odin is working and he is trying again. Odinism is back since about 150 years and it grows rapidly. christianity is in a steep decline, also materialism, the other jewish invented 'religion'.

History is another brainwash program. It neglects the influence and tricks Jews are using and used through time for their enslavement aim. Don't believe what they say and always, esp. as a free men, think for yourself and make your own judgement.

the invented (official) history puts shit in your mind to destroy you, your pride and dignity. Get it out and interpret the findings in your own way.

If you understand russian, read Levashov, he gives you some different ideas. (as always do not believe anything, unless you verified it yourself).

Hitler had to consider the influence of the slave religion over the german people, he couldn't attack them directly as it would have weakened the german people through division. So I assume that would have been something for later. Odinism is for free people, which means the people had to be freed first.

Kauz R. Waldher
Saturday, November 12th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Zorosaster was definitely non-jewish. He was persian or Iranian (Iran= Aryan).

Jews invaded Iran and destroyed as they did with many countries and people. They are hellbound on enslaving white nations.

In the west they invented xchristianity to form a slave religion and then push it on western people. Over the 100s of years they succeeded.

Time is changing and the old Gods come back to free their people. The people who are willing to be free (and that is no easy task, make no mistake about it) will be freed.

Zoroasterism was a valid aryan teaching for free people.

Hitler tried to free germanic people from the enslavement of Jews. He lost. But he is not the only nor the last attempt.

Odin is working and he is trying again. Odinism is back since about 150 years and it grows rapidly. christianity is in a steep decline, also materialism, the other jewish invented 'religion'.

History is another brainwash program. It neglects the influence and tricks Jews are using and used through time for their enslavement aim. Don't believe what they say and always, esp. as a free men, think for yourself and make your own judgement.

the invented (official) history puts shit in your mind to destroy you, your pride and dignity. Get it out and interpret the findings in your own way.

If you understand russian, read Levashov, he gives you some different ideas. (as always do not believe anything, unless you verified it yourself).

Hitler had to consider the influence of the slave religion over the german people, he couldn't attack them directly as it would have weakened the german people through division. So I assume that would have been something for later. Odinism is for free people, which means the people had to be freed first.

Yeah, I just don't think it matters where "christianity" came from. It's a cancer. There are alot of christians within our ranks ... and i'm willing to work with them. And i'm almost sure they'll declare war against us again. But this time, it'll be different.

People ARE moving away from christianity, but not in favor of anything better. Mostly in favor of a very arrogant, liberalist atheism.

Catterick
Saturday, August 27th, 2016, 03:22 PM
A nice little book on the subject is The Cult of Othin by H M Chadwick (its old but well-researched). Chadwick is pretty certain that Odin was not an indigenous god in Scandinavia, but introduced later on. Possibly together with runes, sacrificial hangings and cremation.

By comparing historical sources like Tacitus and Beowulf, Chadwick reaches the conclusion that Odin was not around among the Swedes in the year 50 AD, but definitely around in the sixth century. He doesnt present a historical person as Oden though, at least not as far as I remember. If there is any interest I will look up the book again.

He was not found among the Sami whose pantheon borrowed from the Norse. He was absent in Iceland maybe because there was no kingship there, but he does seem late. Someone else mentioned Thor Heyerdahl who was not a Germanist and he knowingly tried to create sensationalism. Hakon Stang presented similar arguments but with more rigour. I'm not agreeing with either of them entirely. But Snorri's euhemerism matches the Ossetian story of Ud-doen buried on Mt Kazbek. People are wont to forget the Goths were on the steppes, even in the N Caucasus, and Russia was firmly part of the Scandinavian world in the medieval period.

Shadow
Saturday, August 27th, 2016, 07:42 PM
This seems simple to me. The Indo-European pantheon says the supreme male god usually resides on top of a mountain and wields thunder and lightning. He is the king of the gods. Jupiter, and Zuse are examples everyone knows.

Odin is not like these gods, although he may have electromagnetic qualities. He had to earn knowledge and so suffered the lost on an eye. He gave us the runes. The other Indo-European gods were born in their status and gave us nothing.

Thor on the other hand fits the Indo-European model of a supreme god. He does use thunder and lightning, in fact he has a hammer which can generate these things.

So what happened? Obviously the supreme god was Thor when the Indo-Europeans invaded Northern Europe in Corded times. Later a secondary invasion took place from the east led by a war leader who was subsequently deified. This individual was exceptional in many ways and came to be seen as super-intelligent and super-able. This god was Odin and it is the insertion of Odin into the otherwise Corded, probably Celt-like culture, by which the Germanic people were born and came to be a unique entity.

Catterick
Saturday, August 27th, 2016, 07:57 PM
This seems simple to me. The Indo-European pantheon says the supreme male god usually resides on top of a mountain and wields thunder and lightning. He is the king of the gods. Jupiter, and Zuse are examples everyone knows.

Odin is not like these gods, although he may have electromagnetic qualities. He had to earn knowledge and so suffered the lost on an eye. He gave us the runes. The other Indo-European gods were born in their status and gave us nothing.

Thor on the other hand fits the Indo-European model of a supreme god. He does use thunder and lightning, in fact he has a hammer which can generate these things.

So what happened? Obviously the supreme god was Thor when the Indo-Europeans invaded Northern Europe in Corded times. Later a secondary invasion took place from the east led by a war leader who was subsequently deified. This individual was exceptional in many ways and came to be seen as super-intelligent and super-able. This god was Odin and it is the insertion of Odin into the otherwise Corded, probably Celt-like culture, by which the Germanic people were born and came to be a unique entity.

Odin is a psychopomp and trickster god of the Hermes-Mercury type. His image is shamanic. Later as we can see in Christian day names Odin was recognized as identical with Mercury (as was already interpretio Romana). The PIEs did not ascribe each of seven days of the week a planet until Babylonian influence. However the planet Mercury was associated with Hermes-type attributes across Eurasia and beyond (such as Tezcatlipoca in Mexico) and such a god may be reconstructed for PIE.

Shadow
Saturday, August 27th, 2016, 07:59 PM
Odin is a psychopomp and trickster god of the Hermes-Mercury type. His image is shamanic. Later as we can see in Christian day names Odin was recognized as identical with Mercury (as was already interpretio Romana).

Losing one's eye to obtain knowledge is not the act of a trickster.

Catterick
Saturday, August 27th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Losing one's eye to obtain knowledge is not the act of a trickster.

But trickster deities possess an array of attributes and symbolism related to Eurasian shamanism. Odin is a psychopomp, and he is credited such things as the invention of writing and medicine. He is surrounded by symbols of scavenging birds and canines. His staff is a magic wand - he is close to the prototype of the medieval wizard. His seidr is transgressive - this is not the same as a god who is naturally both male and female, he is a man who imitates the role of the other sex during performance, in the fashion of a Siberian shaman. Single eye motif merely implies intensified "evil eye" and third sight - both compatible with the figure of the trickster-shaman.

Shadow
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 01:18 AM
But trickster deities possess an array of attributes and symbolism related to Eurasian shamanism. Odin is a psychopomp, and he is credited such things as the invention of writing and medicine. He is surrounded by symbols of scavenging birds and canines. His staff is a magic wand - he is close to the prototype of the medieval wizard. His seidr is transgressive - this is not the same as a god who is naturally both male and female, he is a man who imitates the role of the other sex during performance, in the fashion of a Siberian shaman. Single eye motif merely implies intensified "evil eye" and third sight - both compatible with the figure of the trickster-shaman.

Your analysis is fine. I just don't agree with the word trickster. Loki was a trickster.

Hersir
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 01:48 AM
Your analysis is fine. I just don't agree with the word trickster. Loki was a trickster.

Odin played tricks and used disguises as well. He also said he would refuse to drink in any hall where Loke is not welcome. Tyr, not Thor, might possibly have been the main god before the viking age.

Shadow
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 05:45 AM
Odin played tricks and used disguises as well. He also said he would refuse to drink in any hall where Loke is not welcome. Tyr, not Thor, might possibly have been the main god before the viking age.

The Indo-European supreme god was always associated with thunder and lightning. It was so even with the Hittites. Unless I am mistaken one German name for Thor was Donar, thunder.

Catterick
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 09:29 AM
The Indo-European supreme god was always associated with thunder and lightning. It was so even with the Hittites. Unless I am mistaken one German name for Thor was Donar, thunder.

The English name for Thor was, literally, Thunder. But before the Migration Age the Roman observers noted Mercury or Chronos was the supreme German god.

Catterick
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 10:24 AM
Tyr, not Thor, might possibly have been the main god before the viking age.

The theonym Tyr belongs to the same group of isoglosses as Finnish taiwaz. In Finland, and Greece, and Mesopotamia, heaven was a separate phenomenon from the weather. Not much is known about Tyr but he had the same functions as Ullr. Tyr recieved swords thrown into bottomless pools, an Arthurian and Nart motif.

hodekin
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 12:02 PM
It would appear that Tyr seems to have been the main God before being replaced by Odin. But it could also be a regional thing...During 'Viking' times Frey seems to have been more important in Sweden than Odin, but what interests me is the way the Character of Odin appears altogether different from country to country. In my opinion, the German Wotan and English Woden are markedly different from the Scandinavian Odin!


Hodekin

Catterick
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 12:09 PM
It would appear that Tyr seems to have been the main God before being replaced by Odin. But it could also be a regional thing...During 'Viking' times Frey seems to have been more important in Sweden than Odin, but what interests me is the way the Character of Odin appears altogether different from country to country. In my opinion, the German Wotan and English Woden are markedly different from the Scandinavian Odin!


Hodekin

It has been questioned that they are the same based upon phonology and possible name etymologies. It seems to me they are even though the derivation Odin < *Wodanaz is improbable.

Wulfaz
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 02:44 PM
I don't think that the gods of our ancestors existed like as the Christian God or Allah or Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva. However the ancient german gods the person of a function, a natural~metheorogical thing like as the Christian God, Jahve originally was a stormgod. Moreovet on the early pages the Bible speak out plural about the god. I have learned that Jahve (the Christian God too) had a wife who called Ashera.

Catterick
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 02:51 PM
I don't think that the gods of our ancestors existed like as the Christian God or Allah or Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva. However the ancient german gods the person of a function, a natural~metheorogical thing like as the Christian God, Jahve originally was a stormgod. Moreovet on the early pages the Bible speak out plural about the god. I have learned that Jahve (the Christian God too) had a wife who called Ashera.

Monotheism of the Israelite type is based upon centuries of philosophical speculation by priestly elites. Its roots are imitative of tendencies within neighbouring Egypt. Paarpola tries to derive Biblical monotheism from an Assyrian source: he fails but he might have a point regarding Zoroastrianism. (Is dualism really Aryan?) An Egyptian source there is still more probable than the Assyrian though the Iranian-Turanian dualism featuring brothers is structurally different from the Gnostic dualism involving emanations - a different origin? The early Turks of Orkhon knew Erlik merely as a polytheistic underworld god, not yet near-diabolised by associations with Angra Mainyu. Dualism in C Asia then originated among Iranians, not among some Mongoloid race. In Iran good-against-evil dualism seems older than monotheism/dualism but is without unambiguous precedent in the country or nearby. Over in the religion of Egypt incipient dualism seems expressed first in a variant of the tears of Atum-Re, in which Apep is born as a younger counterpart to the benign sun. Apep however was not clearly blamed as the source of all evil until the Persian occupation, when notions of an anti-god were clearly present.

Shadow
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 06:11 PM
The English name for Thor was, literally, Thunder. But before the Migration Age the Roman observers noted Mercury or Chronos was the supreme German god.

The Romans are always cited in reference to the ancient Germans but are unreliable in this because they saw everything the Germans did through their own ethnocentric lense, for instance this god Chronos. Chronos isn't even a German word.

You are making my point about Thor. Mercury was never a major god, even in the Roman pantheon. Does Mercury have a day of the week named after him? No. But Thor has Thursday named after him.

Catterick
Sunday, August 28th, 2016, 06:42 PM
You are making my point about Thor. Mercury was never a major god, even in the Roman pantheon. Does Mercury have a day of the week named after him? No. But Thor has Thursday named after him.

Mercury = Mercredi
Woden = Wendesday

Although the Babylonian habit of naming days for planets is late it is informative to a structuralist - and the useful (for us) practice went east to China as well as west to Rome. For example Swedish lordag is Lodhur's day, compelling the identification of Loki with Roman Saturn. This informs us the Loki of late folklore was more important to the ancient Swedish than his Eddic nature as a trickster.

Hermes-Mercury was to gain utmost importance because of the Hermetic corpus, but in Greece long before his attributes overlapped with early notions of Apollo - who was not some minor deity. Both of them were seen as connected to Hyperborea and the underworld: Apollo was the "sun of night" before he was the god of the daytime sun. As a theonym Aplu first appears as another name for Nergal in Greece and Asia Minor: Nergal is another psychopompos (a god who was however identified with planets Saturn and Mars most often).

Loki and Saturday: http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/raa/2818/1995_229.pdf
Late folklore of Loki: http://eldar-heide.net/Publikasjonar%20til%20heimesida/Loke-artikkel%20til%20nettsida.pdf

Shadow
Monday, August 29th, 2016, 03:23 AM
I have a better one for you.

In alchemy the black sun is represented by the planet Saturn only for this meaning the planet is black. This means the Black Sun's Sunday is Saturday.

Shadow
Monday, August 29th, 2016, 03:31 AM
So while we are speaking of the Black Sun, there are some people, artists, who have depicted Odin with one eye and one eye (the eye he lost gaining knowledge) as the Black Sun. This Odin's eye can be seen then as the center of the galaxy representing both the Black Sun and Odin.

Catterick
Monday, August 29th, 2016, 03:45 AM
I have a better one for you.

In alchemy the black sun is represented by the planet Saturn only for this meaning the planet is black. This means the Black Sun's Sunday is Saturday.

Saturn is also known as the sun of night for its steady nocturnal motion. All fits together?

Shadow
Monday, August 29th, 2016, 04:38 AM
Saturn is also known as the sun of night for its steady nocturnal motion. All fits together?

Yes