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Walter Pittman
Saturday, December 11th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Modern semi-automatic rifles are sexy, but in many combat scenarios a military bolt action rifle will do just as well as a semi-automatic (at the very least, it will force you to actually aim at what you are shooting at, rather than simply "spray and pray."

I would advise every reader to go out now and buy at least 2 Mosin Nagant rifles or two, while they are still ridiculously cheap (around $100 per rifle)(Buy one rifle as your main shooter, the other as a backup and source of spare parts). And then buy at least 1,000 rounds of ammo, which is also quite cheap (the Wolf stuff is fine, but Winchester makes a nice 180-grain round (actually manufactured by S&B, apparently).

And then go practice.

The Mosin Nagant design is crude in many respects (it IS Russian), but is also very rugged and durable (it IS Russian). The design is over 100 years old (thus, pre-Bolshevik, of course) and many of the rifles are over 100 years old, also. I would not choose a Mosin Nagant as my first Battle Rifle, but right now they are too cheap not to own a couple.

The Finns made better Mosins than the Russians, of course. The best is probably the M39; it is very accurate. You might want to get a carbine-length Russian M38, also; it's handy and just as powerful as its bigger brothers. All these rifles kick hard, but they also deliver hard.

There is another reason for residents of the United States to buy certain types of Mosin Nagant rifles, because many of them are federally defined as antiques, and can thus be purchaseds anonymously, as they are exempt from federal (and usually state) laws regulating the sale of firearms.

Chaos is coming sooner or later and there's no better time than now to buy these rifles.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, December 11th, 2004, 11:41 PM
In the USA there has been a lot of French bashing recently. One joke goes:

World War Two French Rifle For Sale
Lightly used
Dropped but Never Fired

Tommy Vercetti
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 02:00 AM
Mosin nagant is good rifle but 7.62x53R or 7.62x54R(same cartidge) is rather expensive

Walter Pittman
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 05:23 PM
I just did a quick check on one internet retailer:


$89 for 780 rounds, delivered. This is czech manufactured ammo, non-corrosive (probably S&B).

You can't get much cheaper than that.

Tommy Vercetti
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 08:47 PM
I just did a quick check on one internet retailer:


$89 for 780 rounds, delivered. This is czech manufactured ammo, non-corrosive (probably S&B).

You can't get much cheaper than that.

With that price I would except those infamous russian steel cased, steel jacket cartidges with primers containing mercury. Not very friendly to barrel.

It they really are S&B or suchlike, then maybe I need to change a supplier

SouthernBoy
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 02:34 AM
The gun laws in California are extremely restrictive. As for your "spray and pray" theory, I doubt you have much experience at how modern warfare is. We won't be fighting in the grass-covered field of yesterday, but in the urban jungles. I am saving up to buy a "no-ban" Bushmaster M4A3 Carbine, which I will put a modular accessory foregrip on. I like those Beta-C 100 rd. magazines too. :) I guess thats the best you can do in Cally.

Krampus
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 03:33 AM
I own two Russian Tula M44's(the carbine version) with laminated stocks, nice rifles for the money.

Walter Pittman
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 05:59 PM
SouthernBoy:

California's even worse than you probably think.
Bushmasters are banned as "assault weapons," although you're allowed to keep yours with various restrictions if you owned it before the law was passed and you registered it.

Allowed are: Ruger Mini-14, Ruger Mini-30, fixed-magazine (10-round) SKS, M-1 Garand, and M1As. Magazines are limited to 10-round versions, although you can keep your grandfathered higher-capacity mags.

You're right that I have zero experience with armed combat, but that doesn't mean that I haven't done a great deal of thinking about what might and might not work best; and I do have a bit of shooting experience.

Small caliber bullets such as the .223 have their place in combat, obviously, but I think the larger, heavier .30 caliber bullets are more versatile, especially backed by a lot of powder (as opposed to the 7.62X39). They provide much better penetration, are pushed around less by the wind, etc. It's an old argument, .223 vs. .308; but read what the soldiers think about it in the book Black Hawk Down, and Taylor in "The Fighting Rifle."

For about the same price as your Bushmaster, you could instead buy a Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 M1A.

But in any case, I started the thread not to talk about the BEST battle rifle, but CHEAP battle rifles. Of course I'd rather go into battle with a nice M1A with 20-round mags than with a Mosin (or even a Bushmaster), but the M1As and Bushmasters cost several times the price of a Mosin. But even so, the Mosins are certainly more reliable and far less prone to malfunction than those other rifles, especially in harsh conditions. In some scenarios I probably WOULD rather have a Mosin than a semi-automatic.

Remember also that in a guerilla combat situation it is unlikely that you would have huge stockpiles of ammunition to burn up in undisciplined, unaimed fire. You would want to make every shot count--and this is why the Iraqi fighters are jokes compared to US soldiers, because most of them can't shoot with any accuracy (I know that some of them can, of course, but most can't).

As for fighting in urban jungles, they're the LAST place I'm gonna be when the S*** hits the fan (unless I have just plain bad luck). I wouldn't fight to save one of America's mongrelized cities in any case; let the enemy have his own.

SouthernBoy
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 10:04 PM
I would get a small caliber handgun to compliment your Mosin Nagant. You shouldn't be afraid of that bayonet either, there may be a time when you need to fight in a melee situation. I would also suggest somekind of synthetic stock, but I don't know how much luck you'd have finding one of those. :)

Aleksander D. G
Saturday, August 13th, 2005, 07:23 AM
I own a SKS (I modified it extensivly) own a couple of Mossin Nagants (to the author of this thread the design is not entirely Russian Mossin and Nagant were 2 different People their designs were combined to create a better rifle) I modified one cleed the hell out of them and kept two as is and one of them is a show Piece (it has Imperial Markings Tula 1903) and for 79$ a piece at your local big 5 or arownd 50 on the internet I figure I can get a few more as space fillers in my safes


Walter Pittman about that ammo I am preety sure you found it on ammoman I only use the ammo on that site for this caliber since I cannot get it anywere else arownd here Its a hell of a great deal never gave me anyproblems exept for the fact that they promicce it to be in stripper clips its not always is

I also own 2 mausers 1 made in serbia about 50 years ago and let me tell you its an amazing gun and a mauser tanker carbine made today also great quality

as for a tactical aspect I chose a walther G-22 (I dont care what anyone saise about 22 l.r. if you know what you are doing it will get the job done

Also to southern Boy you can not have a more then 10 round magazine in california
you also can not own any of the folowing

(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(2) UZI and Galil.
(3) Beretta AR-70.
(4) CETME Sporter.
(5) Colt AR-15 series.
(6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR110 C.
(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter.
(8) MAS 223.
(9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1
(10) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M11.
(11) SKS with detachable magazine.
(12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551.
(13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48.
(14) Sterling MK-6.
(15) Steyer AUG.
(16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S.
(17) Armalite AR-180.
(18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle.
(19) Calico M-900.
(20) J&R ENG M-68.
(21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.
(b) All of the following specified pistols:
(1) UZI.
(2) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(3) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M-11.
(C) Advance Armament Inc. M-11.
(D) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(4) Intratec TEC-9.
(5) Sites Spectre.
(6) Sterling MK-7.
(7) Calico M-950.
(8) Bushmaster Pistol.
(c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.

neither can you own any rifles with these charachteristics


(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

http://caag.state.ca.us/images/shim.gifSenate Bill 23 Assult Weapon Characteristics
Effective January 1, 2000, Senate Bill 23, Statutes of 1999, establishes new criteria for defining assault weapons based on generic characteristics. This bill allows and requires persons who own/possess firearms that fall under the new "assault weapon" definition to register those firearms with the Department of Justice during the one-year period between January 1, 2000 and December 31, 2000. Effective January 1, 2000, this bill adds Penal Code Section 12276.1 to the Penal Code as follows.

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (B) A second handgrip. (C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following: (A) A folding or telescoping stock. (B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Vespasian
Wednesday, August 24th, 2005, 11:38 PM
I have seen most recently on the market alot of good mil-surp. bolt actions.

These include: the Swiss K31, a finely made straight pull bolt action; the Mosin-Nagant family, ammo is getting cheaper and some is being domestically made now; Yugoslavian SKS, nice semi-auto for a good price and has accuracy more like a rifle; and some Lee-Enfields, sturdy bolt action that is quick with a detachable mag, ammo is widely available as well as after market part and accessories.

Josep Conrad
Thursday, August 25th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I donīt know why do you need so much fire power, are you sure you ever use it? No combat experience? Never put your confidence on films or books, talk with veterans. About the gunnery: in Europe is quite difficult to find something acceptable so the best motto is "nevermind the strength, but the right strength to kill". Probably you should begin by the basics before. But this is just an opinion.;)

Teufelhunden
Friday, September 23rd, 2005, 03:11 PM
I have a Yugoslavian SKS 762X39, fiber force stock and Leupold scope..
You can beat this thing to death and still hit a quarter at 200 yards consistantly and make shots at 500+ yards, Dirty , clean it still fires! without problem, Hell it is a better weapon that my M4, but the M1 Socom still kicks ass.
Teufelhunden