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Zvaci
Wednesday, July 10th, 2002, 03:29 PM
Heracleitus
Circa 540.BC.-circa 480.BC.
Heracleitus was a philosopher. He came from a noble family and was known as "the obscure one" by his contemporaries.
He is known for his ideas that revolve around all things, all matter, being in a constant state of flux. Everything is constantly changing.
We can relate Heracleitus to Dionysus in this way:
Heracleitus believes that the origin of all things is...FIRE!

Hellstar
Wednesday, July 10th, 2002, 07:30 PM
Circa 540-circa 480 B.C. Greek philosopher; evolved cosmology in which fire is principle element of orderly universe

Zvaci I read not long ago about he was the first historical person to acknowledge the principles of natural selection and gradualism,

He is said to have been the first public known person who suddenly said: hey these "species" animals, plants, mankind, has not always looked this way? We are changing all the time and find our self in a constant metamorphose.

The amazing is that as late as 1800century T.H Huxley (Evidence of Man’s place in nature 1863) and Charles Darwin (the descent of man 1871) was obscene and not easily digested in the aristocratic families, which were partly warped in Judea doctrines.

This shows the purity of philosophy back then and how much Judea doctrines have polluted mankind in the in-between centuries.

Zvaci
Thursday, July 11th, 2002, 08:39 PM
" he was the first historical person to acknowledge the principles of natural selection and gradualism"

It is astonishing that he come to so complicated conclusions (on wich we are used on in modern age) in that early time when philosophic way of thinking was still young infront of religious.
His influence on Nietzche is allso significant.

Rules we find in his philosophy are eternal.

Hellstar
Thursday, July 11th, 2002, 08:59 PM
do you behold any literature with this famous Decadent.

What is Nietzsche's settings of him?

Zvaci
Thursday, July 11th, 2002, 11:19 PM
Unfortunatley the only direct sources of his life and work are in fragments and observations of other phylosophers of his pheriod.
His style was deepley methaphorycal and hard to understand,he did leave no scool or followers after him.And was offtenly misunderstood by the people of his time.Allso his aristocratic wiew-point was "out of fashion"in his polis Oephesus wich turned to "democraty".
Socrates answer on the question what is his judgemant of Heracleitus philosophy was that he agree with the part that he understood,and that he belives that the part he failed to understain is correct allso.With the dose of humor he said allso that this second part should be discovered by some good diver from Dellfes.

With profet Zoroaster,Heracleitus was mayor inspiration in Nietzches creation of character Zarathustra fro his capital work "Allso sprach Zarathustra".

Nietzche bellived that he was crown of the golden age of Antient Greek phylosophy(wich include Milet scool,Phitaroreian scool,Elleian scool and Atomists)-The pre-Socratian era of philosophy.
Nietzche describet that era as the harmonic balance of "Dyonisian" and "Apolonic" virtues.That balance-ideal of antient Hellenic spirit was dammiged by decadents Plato,Sofists,Stoics,Epicur,Aristotheles ....and finaly Chistianity by chariching only "Apolonic"virtue of life.

Rahul
Sunday, July 14th, 2002, 02:07 PM
Circa 540-circa 480 B.C. Greek philosopher; evolved cosmology in which fire is principle element of orderly universe

RV 10:190

Universal Order and Truth were born of blazing heat of the Tapas(1),
and thence was Night born, and thence the billowy ocean of space;
and from the billowy ocean of space was born Time,
the year ordaining days and nights, the ruler of every moment.
In the beginning, as on every occassion before, the sun(2) was created,
the moon, the heaven and the earth, the firmament and the realm of light.

(1) Endeavour(?) or Desire(?)

(2) Its' a cyclical creation.

Jason
Saturday, July 20th, 2002, 10:01 AM
Herakleitos, THE father of conscious aryan thought... Very interesting to see the parallels
in Rig-Veda: Tapas is the heat of the original raw energy that gives rise to all later creation and refinements. This applies to Cosmos as well as to Man, who is the Mikrokosmos, comprising in himself all cosmical laws and principles at work.
His comparison with Dionysos is, however, less successful. Herakleitos banned the Dionysian culture with abhorrence; do not misunderstand the meanings of Apollonian and Dionysian. Nietsche himself has contributed to some confusion on this subject. There has also once existed a sound Dionysian greek side - however, it was soon penetrated by chthonian elements.
To get illuminated on this subject, and so much more, study Alfred Rosenberg' s monumental work "The Myth of the 20. century". Best if you can read it in the german original, if you know very good german of course. Its english translation is almost bad. But he is, certainly, very difficult to translate. However, he is indispensable - a "must" for any aryan seeker.
One more remark: Plato was no "decadent man"!!! Plato is the last great authentic glimpse of original aryan genious, after him some scholars and followers, Plotin, Georgios Plethon, ... - then, the chaos!

OnionPeeler
Saturday, July 27th, 2002, 01:51 AM
Was Heraclitus the first to propose interchangability or equivalence of matter/energy?

"All things are an exchange for fire, and fire for all things, as goods for gold and gold for goods."

He had a similar approach to opposites - wet becomes dry, dry becomes wet.

He seems to view opposites as necessary compliments so he can say unabashedly:

"War is the father of all and king of all, who manifested some as gods and some as men, who made some slaves and some freemen."

and

"We must recognize that war is common and strife is justice, and all things happen according to strife and necessity."

Heraclitus is known as the first Greek to use the word kosmos as 'world-order.'

"This world-order, the same of all, no god nor man did create, but it ever was and is and will be: everliving fire, kindling in measures and being quenched in measures."

Overall, an interesting guy who doesn't probably deserve the criticisms of Plato and others.

Stríbog
Friday, August 16th, 2002, 08:10 PM
I believe that it was Heraclitus who said that one cannot step into the same river twice.

Hellstar
Monday, September 9th, 2002, 09:41 AM
"If you don't hope what is impossible to hope, you will not unveil it, as it is closed to the search, and no path leads towards it"

Heraclitus, Fr. 125

Moody
Tuesday, February 4th, 2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Zvaci;

'With the prophet Zoroaster, Heracleitus was mayor inspiration in Nietzche's creation of character Zarathustra from his capital work "Allso sprach Zarathustra".
Nietzche believed that Heracleitus was the crown of the golden age of Ancient Greek philosophy ... the pre-Socratian era ...'

Yes, and Nietzsche sought to open up a new cycle by taking up where the Pre-Socratics left off.

History saw the submerging of Pre-Socratism and the victory of the rival Platonism, with the eventual emergence of Christianity [Nietzsche calls this 'Platonism for the people'].
This Platonic cycle of some two millennia culminates in the "Death of God".

The snake bites its own tail, and with Nietzsche we return to the Pre-Socratics ready to begin this parallel 'godless' universe.

Nietzsche is Plato to Heraclitus's Socrates in the age of Evolution, Relativity and Quantum.

And who is to be the 'christ' of this new era?


Life
http://www2.forthnet.gr/presocratics/heracln.htm



Karl Popper, in his 'The Open Society & its Enemies, Book 1', actually begins with a description of the work & ideas of Heraclitus.

Popper wrote this book as a critique of what he saw as a fascistic thread running through Western philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus & Plato.

What was intended by Popper as a damning indictment, actually turned out to be a useful handbook for fascist philosophers!

Sir Oswald Mosley was one of its first readers, & ironically thanked Popper for showing that the great western philosophers were in fact fascists!

To quote some excerpts from Popper on Heraclitus gives us the most basic prospectus on fascist philosophy [or what I call 'Aryanosophy'].

I have placed the ideas under basic headings;

Change
"Heraclitus was the philosopher who discovered the idea of change.
Down to this time, the Greek philosophers ... asked themselves ... 'What stuff is the world made of?', or 'How is it constructed, what is the ground-plan?'
This very natural approach was superseded by the genius of Heraclitus. The view he introduced was that there was no such edifice, no stable structure, no cosmos. 'Everything is in flux & nothing is at rest' is the motto of his philosophy".

Anti-Democratic
"Hostility towards democracy breaks through everywhere in the fragments;
'the mob fill their bellies like beasts; they take the bards & popular belief as their guides, unaware that the many are bad & that only the few are good' ".

Destiny
"In the Heraclitean philosophy, an emphasis on change is combined with the complementary belief in an inexorable & immutable law of destiny; the view that change is ruled by an unchanging law.
All material things are like flames; they are processes rather than things. But having reduced all things to 'flames', to processes, Heraclitus discerns in the processes a law, a measure, a reason, a wisdom.
This is the destined order of events in the world-process".

Transformation
"Fire is also the symbol of the transmutation of matter from one stage [fuel] into another. It thus provides the link between Heraclitus' intuitive theory of nature & the theories of rarefaction & condensation of his predecessors".

Reason
"If we are awake, we live in a common world; there is a mystical intuition which is given to the chosen, to those who are awake, who have the power to see, hear & speak;
'One thing alone is wisdom: to understand the thought which steers everything through everything' ".

War
"There is a driving force behind all change; Heraclitus declares that strife or war is the dynamic as well as the creative principle of all chnage, & especially of all the differences between men.
He holds that the outcome of war is always just;
'War is the father & the king of all things'.

Great Men
Heraclitus believes in the superiority of Great Men;
'One man is worth more than ten thousand, if he is Great' ".

Popper concludes that "it is surprising to find in these early fragments, dating from about 500 BC, so much that is characteristic of modern historicist & anti-democratic tendencies".

Popper goes on to give an interpretation of Plato which is very instructive for fascists, but we'll save that for another thread.

http://www.stenudd.com/myth/greek/images/heraclitus.jpg
Heraclitus

OMegasPan
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 08:51 AM
Yes, and Nietzsche sought to open up a new cycle by taking up where the Pre-Socratics left off.

History saw the submerging of Pre-Socratism and the victory of the rival Platonism, with the eventual emergence of Christianity [Nietzsche calls this 'Platonism for the people'].
This Platonic cycle of some two millennia culminates in the "Death of God".

The snake bites its own tail, and with Nietzsche we return to the Pre-Socratics ready to begin this parallel 'godless' universe.

Nietzsche is Plato to Heraclitus's Socrates in the age of Evolution, Relativity and Quantum.



Nietzsche could not have "taken up" where the Pre-Socratics "left off". Whatever it is the Pre-Socratics where saying, they were saying it, living in close relation with Nature. Nietzsche on the other hand was manifesting his disgust on the modern world and modern christian humans, and the sickness he saw in their life so far away from Nature and Natural Laws..

The 2000 years of Christianity were certainly not a 'Platonic Cycle' and a true 'Platonic Cycle' would never have resulted in the "death of god".

Overall, i think it was a very "abstract" commentation on these Greek figures.

Moody
Saturday, May 27th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Nietzsche could not have "taken up" where the Pre-Socratics "left off". Whatever it is the Pre-Socratics where saying, they were saying it, living in close relation with Nature. Nietzsche on the other hand was manifesting his disgust on the modern world and modern christian humans, and the sickness he saw in their life so far away from Nature and Natural Laws..

This is why Nietzsche's Zarathustra exorts us to 'remain true to the Earth'.

To Plato & Aristotle, Heraclitus' philosophy was logically incoherent; and as we know, western philosophy took the path of Plato & Aristotle, not that of Heraclitus.


The 2000 years of Christianity were certainly not a 'Platonic Cycle' and a true 'Platonic Cycle' would never have resulted in the "death of god".

Platonic philosophy certainly influenced Christian theology; Nietzsche calls Christianity "Platonism for the people".

For Nietzsche, Christianity's emphasis on the 'truth' meant that eventually Christianity would apply the search for 'truth' to God Himself and find Him to be false; hence the 'death of God'.

Therefore, if we take this period, from Platonism-to-Christianity-to the Death of God, we have a kind of cycle which returns to the Heraclitean.

Nietzsche's philosophy was the strongest statement of this return.