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Glenlivet
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 08:15 PM
Three Ainus

Source: The Field Museum

Prodigal Son
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 08:20 PM
Three Ainus

Source: The Field Museum

I've read osteological studies by Japanese scientists which show the Ainu to be very simmilar to Australids.

Glenlivet
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 08:33 PM
I have thought about that too.

That is not surprising at all, as also Lundman related them to some rather unknown, "rest race", very proto-morphic, perhaps proto-Europoid group, together with the Wjatkids and Veddoids.



I've read osteological studies by Japanese scientists which show the Ainu to be very simmilar to Australids.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 08:25 AM
I've read osteological studies by Japanese scientists which show the Ainu to be very simmilar to Australids.

There are however notable morphological similarities between Late Pleistocene groups in NW Europe and NE Asia, which have survived among the Ainu people, although incorporing East Asian elements have side-shooted them from this lineage in stead of making them a proper relict race:

http://www.anthro.umt.edu/biolab/10017.pdf

Test
Friday, November 19th, 2004, 10:52 PM
The whole Germany theory of Ainu being lost Nordics has never been substantiated. It has also been droped by scholars for 60 years now. Plus, all of the genetics and anthropological studies I'm aware of, including their teeth (Sundadont, the ancestral form of Sinodont teeth which characterizes Northeast Asians and Amerinds), all point to a paleo form indigenous to the region and came up as an adaptation to northern environments. This type probably existed in mainland northern Asia, co-breeding/co-evolving with the Eurasian steppe strain.

If anything, they look like an intermediate form between the australoid (excluding the African-resembing negrito) and Mongoloid.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Ainu_3.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Ainu_2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Ainu_6.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Ainu_5.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Ainu_4.gif
Below...Papuan
http://www.newint.org/issue309/Images/boar.JPG

ScotchTape
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 01:40 AM
I agree with you Test. I have yet to see any of the nordic looking ainus. The most caucasoid they looked like was turanid probably and even that I doubt.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 09:28 AM
If anything, they look like an intermediate form between the australoid (excluding the African-resembing negrito) and Mongoloid.

Paternal haplogroup IV is common in Jpan, and its the only one preent in the Andamanese, so youre idea of a Negritid element in the Ainuids mignt make sense. Im critical of describing populations outside Sahul as being true Australoids, however. I think this word has been used too widely in the past, to describe various types that are (usually) of an Indotropical origin.

Test
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Well, the Papuans have been shown to be genetically close to Australian aborigines, who also can look that way. In fact, all of these people I list below are genetically clustered together in Cavalli-Sforza's tests. The pure Indian sudroid is lineage-wise linked to Australoids. All of these people carry variant forms of the primordial African phenotype and they didn't change because the environment did not necessitate it.
Australian aborigine:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Australoid.jpg

Indian (pure or close-to-pure non-Dravidian mixed) Sudroid/Veddoid... Australoid:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Indian_Australoid.jpg
Papuan: (Alot of them really do resemble Middle Easterners. Perhaps this was an archiac archetype present in the first groups out of Africa that eventually led to the "Semitic" variant.)
http://www.newint.org/issue344/Images/w1.jpg

Melanesian: (who lineage-wise have Mongoloid/northern East Asian admixture; Melanesians and Australian aborigines also have a tendency towards blondism)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Solomon_islanders.jpg
Negrito:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Andamese_negrito.jpg

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Well, the Papuans have been shown to be genetically close to Australian aborigines, who also can look that way. In fact, all of these people I list below are genetically clustered together in Cavalli-Sforza's tests. The pure Indian sudroid is lineage-wise linked to Australoids. All of these people carry variant forms of the primordial African phenotype and they didn't change because the environment did not necessitate it.

Im not sure where he found Negritids fitted, or even if he studied them, but I know when he found Australids and Papuids to be closest to each other Cavalli-Sforza found them to be distantly related anyway, with a genetic distance greater than between Caucasoid populations or Subsaharan African populations. This difference between them makes sense given the dental difference between the Australids and the Papuids (the Papuids are on the line leading to the south-east Asian Sundadonts, but the Australids are outliers from Sundadonts in an African direction). I do consider both the Australids and the Papuids to be a part of the Australoid major race, what I doubt is a close affinity between Sahul Australoids and "Australoid" Asians, like the Negritids.

And though Afrotropical and Indotropical populations do retain certain features, nobody knows what the actual "primordial African phenotype" was. The Paleolithic Africans seem already very diverse (and until the Bantu expansion Africans would have stayed more diverse than they are now). Which Paleolithic Africans do you think are the closest to the Australoids?

Test
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 06:50 PM
Im not sure where he found Negritids fitted, or even if he studied them, but I know when he found Australids and Papuids to be closest to each other Cavalli-Sforza found them to be distantly related anyway, with a genetic distance greater than between Caucasoid populations or Subsaharan African populations. This difference between them makes sense given the dental difference between the Australids and the Papuids (the Papuids are on the line leading to the south-east Asian Sundadonts, but the Australids are outliers from Sundadonts in an African direction). I do consider both the Australids and the Papuids to be a part of the Australoid major race, what I doubt is a close affinity between Sahul Australoids and "Australoid" Asians, like the Negritids.I'm not sure what you mean by the above underlines...
I've recently finished Genes, Peoples, and Languages by Cavalli-Sforza. In it, the distance between Australian aborigine and Papuan is definitely smaller than that between sub-Subharan Africans. In fact they are the closest to each other. I think this is what you mean.


And though Afrotropical and Indotropical populations do retain certain features, nobody knows what the actual "primordial African phenotype" was.Agree.

The Paleolithic Africans seem already very diverse (and until the Bantu expansion Africans would have stayed more diverse than they are now).Agree.

Which Paleolithic Africans do you think are the closest to the Australoids?It's sort of impossible to know. I'm not too familiar with African stuff. I tend to be most interested in Mongoloid origins and the various people that led to them.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by the above underlines...
I've recently finished Genes, Peoples, and Languages by Cavalli-Sforza. In it, the distance between Australian aborigine and Papuan is definitely smaller than that between sub-Subharan Africans. In fact they are the closest to each other. I think this is what you mean.

I mean that the length of the Australid and Papuid branches is greater than the length of the two Subsaharan African lineages in the dendrogram.