PDA

View Full Version : Non-Coon Views on Alpines/Brachycephally?



Azdaja
Thursday, May 1st, 2003, 04:55 PM
I know that Coon saw Alpines as UP derived, and Nordics as Med derived. But now I am also aware that other anthropologists whom I am unfarmiliar with - such as Lundman - said that Nordics were UP derived. This makes sense for a couple of reasons, but I really want to zero in on one:
Cro-Magnon man was dolichocephalic, as are Nordics.
Now if Nordics are UP derived, what I would like to know is: where do Alpines come from?
And also, regardless of what the answer is, I'd also like to know some theories on what causes brachycephally.

Tore
Sunday, May 4th, 2003, 12:17 AM
And also, regardless of what the answer is, I'd also like to know some theories on what causes brachycephally.

I once read that brachycephally is positively selected in colder climates, as it provides a greater volume to surface area ratio.

Conquistador
Wednesday, June 4th, 2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Azdaja
...what I would like to know is: where do Alpines come from?
And also, regardless of what the answer is, I'd also like to know some theories on what causes brachycephally.

Another cause may be inbreeding; certain groups may retain certain genes per sucessive generation for brachycephally while dolichocephally becomes a recessive trait.

hardcorps
Wednesday, June 4th, 2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Azdaja
Now if Nordics are UP derived, what I would like to know is: where do Alpines come from?
And also, regardless of what the answer is, I'd also like to know some theories on what causes brachycephally.


This is just a theory I came up with, it may be highly suspect!:

Overweight/rotund/stocky people tend to be brachycephalic (and vice versa). The 'fat genes' cause brachycephaly (?). Dolicos tend to be of more ectomorphic (skinny) build. Other genes may cancel out the effect of the 'fat genes' on body type but still leave the 'fat genes' dominant in the skull formation, causing brachycephaly.

I would think lower selection pressures allowed the accumulation of fat-causing genes in the Europid race. Those areas of Europe that were more contantly involved in wars and activities requiring physical strength and speed (hunting) disallowed the widespread accumulation of those genes. Fat-causing genes always existed but were only able to accumulate in easier, less warlike, and less hand-to-mouth times times and places. Could Alpines have been UPs that had an easier time of it than their Nordic UP-derived cousins? I have no idea!!! :confused:

This theory would explain the 'cropping up' of a brachy among a family of dolicos. The brachy just lucked out in receiving all of the possible fat-related genes from both parents.

PS I believe it is fairly widely held that genes do play a role in people's ability to gain and lose weight.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, June 4th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Good post! give the man a cigar:chill



Originally posted by hardcorps
This is just a theory I came up with, it may be highly suspect!:

Overweight/rotund/stocky people tend to be brachycephalic (and vice versa). The 'fat genes' cause brachycephaly (?). Dolicos tend to be of more ectomorphic (skinny) build. Other genes may cancel out the effect of the 'fat genes' on body type but still leave the 'fat genes' dominant in the skull formation, causing brachycephaly.

I would think lower selection pressures allowed the accumulation of fat-causing genes in the Europid race. Those areas of Europe that were more contantly involved in wars and activities requiring physical strength and speed (hunting) disallowed the widespread accumulation of those genes. Fat-causing genes always existed but were only able to accumulate in easier, less warlike, and less hand-to-mouth times times and places. Could Alpines have been UPs that had an easier time of it than their Nordic UP-derived cousins? I have no idea!!! :confused:

This theory would explain the 'cropping up' of a brachy among a family of dolicos. The brachy just lucked out in receiving all of the possible fat-related genes from both parents.

PS I believe it is fairly widely held that genes do play a role in people's ability to gain and lose weight.

Hans
Thursday, June 5th, 2003, 12:25 AM
I don’t know if I agree with the war scenario. I personally think of the differences between the two as not of a lower form of evolution, per say, but rather just a difference path evolution chose to take. I’m a fairly tall, strong, lean guy but I know I could never lift what some of these short, stout guys at my gym do. I know I’d kill them on the treadmill, sit-ups, and pull-ups but when it comes to squats, dead-lifts, and benching, the weight they do would break my bones. I can’t even comprehend myself lifting that much. There's a guy standing like 5'3 and benches up around 440lbs. It's ridiculous:rolleyes:

hardcorps
Thursday, June 5th, 2003, 11:53 AM
Thanks providenje!

I would like to elaborate and answer a few possible objections. (Please remember these are just my own musings, I would love for you to disagree and educate me on alternate explanations.)

'I personally think of the differences between the two as not of a lower form of evolution . . .'

I hope I was not implying any concept of higher or lower. Alpine women can be very attractive (but are probably not my absolute preference in pure form) and the average IQs of the white caucasian nations were all relaitively close, as I recall.

'. . . just a difference path evolution chose to take.'

I can't see how the major physical differences between Alpine and Nordic could be as random as water splashing. It was caused, somehow.

The question I did not address was why it should be that, in a society with low selection pressures, that fat-related genes would come to grow in influence. These are my feelings: endomorphs (rotund) and mesomorphs (naturally muscular types) are perceived as being more inclined to social activity.

Ectomorphs are considered, according to the originator of the somatypes theory (his name forgotten!), to be more reserved and 'bookish,' more introverted. (I wonder if it could ever be shown that 'bookishness' led a higher proprtion of dolicos into the Catholic priesthood?) I understand the Nordic countries have generally had a lower reproduction rate than Alpine ones. Perhaps in a more stable society dolicos tend to have less offspring, per capita.

Also, true sexual selection may have had a role. I know at certain times and places Europids have glorified the 'bigger woman' (see the primitive Venus carvings). Over time that would have presumably resulted in the dominance of fat-related genes. I do not know, however, if that cultural more is known to have directly coincided with the Alpines' developmental period.

'I’m a fairly tall, strong, lean guy but I know I could never lift what some of these short, stout guys at my gym do. I know I’d kill them on the treadmill, sit-ups, and pull-ups but when it comes to squats, dead-lifts, and benching, the weight they do would break my bones. I can’t even comprehend myself lifting that much. There's a guy standing like 5'3 and benches up around 440lbs.'

In primitive war conditions, speed (a lean body) and leverage (height, which is also a defining characteristic of the Nordics) are far more important than brute strength. Have you ever seen a boxing match with a tall skinny guy and a shorter, stouter opponent? Observe the extreme advantage leverage gives.

This fighting advantage gives the same survival advantages in hunting with a spear. (Perhaps I should not have mentioned strength, per se, as being overly advantageous in military and food-gathering pursuits. I think it is far easier to turn a chubby body, very generally speaking, into a muscular one than a skinny physique into a muscular one.)


PS In talking about the relative merits of Alpine or Nordic types in the racially-formative survival struggle, I'm just generalising. The exception proves the rule. Many brachy-rotund types, for example, would have made up for a lack of leverage and speed with a martial, battle-hungry spirit. Also, of course, there are many extroverted ectomorphs and equally as many bookish, intellectual bracycephalics.

PPS To reiterate, this is just me arguing a point. I have the highest respect for both subraces.

torrent
Saturday, June 7th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Hi,
As
far as know alpinization is a process and alpin is in fact not a subrace but is a status. It is a neotenic responce to relatively unfavorable conditions. The
brachycephaly, stockyness, sturdyness of alpins are infantile properties which is a saviour against cold. In that sense alpin is stronger against cold and is more suitable for rocky mountains and is more balanced against gravity in snowy places. Generally speaking alpin
is a forest dweller accustomed to high places.
Brachycephaly in mediveal times is queationable no natural selection will take place in a few hundred years unless there is a huge massacre or
a natural selection is carried out by plaque but this time we would need comparative studies of graves.
cheers

Von Braun
Monday, June 9th, 2003, 10:38 PM
There is also the low-skulled/high-skulled dichotomy. UPs are supposed to be high-skulled, Atlanto-Mediterraneans low-skulled, Dinarics high-skulled, and Nordics split between the two. Does this shed any light on the issue?

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2003, 05:56 PM
The Upper Paleolithic Europeans are usually described and equated to
us modern people, but it's truism is a simplification of a wider
problem, namely the factor of gracilization as either a circumstance
of adaptation, acclimatisation, change of subsistence and diet,
either as following overpowering by newcoming, meridional elements,
gene flow and mongrelization, and by its very indefinete nature,
leading to gradual, but not in time and space locked smoother,
juvenile or even more effeminated developing of body bulk, cranial
size and facial structure.
The present-day population of Europe, except probably in Northwest
Europe were "archaic" cromagnid traits in various solutions persist,
are marked by a reduction of the cranial robusticity.
Another and even more protomorphic stronghold was NE Europe, where
the gracilization process was retarded untill a few millenia before
Christ.
The modification touches in the first place the bizygomatic breadth,
but it goes even farther, perhaps with its cumulation in the Early
Middle Ages, where another by-effect of gracilization, neoteny,
leading to the increase of roundheadedness presents itself with a
reduction of the mandible and leptoprosopy.
Anyway, the receding forehead made place for a steeper frontal angle
and the prominence of the superciliary arches remitted.
The cranial lenght and size of the orbits are also indicative for a
refinement of the facial skeleton and is esimated to be correlating
with a reduction of the facial width.
Skull lenght reduces in cohesion with superciliary coarseness and a
lessening of the convexity of the backhead, but brachycephaly was
posterior to these events in SE Europe, where it differs in size
(small to medium) compared to the Northwesterners.

As a rule the more coarse-boned the skeleton appears, the likelier
the cranial index attains low values and diminishes the facial index,
which result in the dysharmony opposing the skull against the facial
outline, best characterized by the dolichocranial but strikingly
euryene Cro Magnon race and usually denoting as a pars pro toto on
all recent Paleolithic Europids. The <<Proto-europoid>> traits of a
large development of the face below the orbits, the receding forehead
and prominence of the browridges among the modern European races
indicate positively a neanderthaloid phase in their evolutionary
line, retained as a nearly perfect recombination leading to a
Predmost variety, stressed by the fact that the cranial
skeleton's
robusticity adds to the imparity of a more gracile(less boreal?) body
composure.
Whether somatic modifications originate from changing patterns in
subsistence and diet, from mainly proteine based food over to carbo-
hydrate enriched meals, locked unto the transition from
hunting/foraging to an agricultural economy, is questionable: the
Pygmees are still predominantly hunters, but their body build and
skull structure don't reflect any greater robusticity than the
neighbouring agriculturalist and even the Mesolithic Mediterreneans
of Muge in Portugal or the Palestine Natufians don't show
manifest
differences to modern-day Mediterrenean populations.
However, the Early Neolithics still and very notably among the
Cardial Ware people were very active game hunters and fishers, any
modification could have been a slow, even revoked process that
occured unevenly in geographical distribution and on several epochal
occasions and bound to the foundations and character of a given
society with special <<assortative mating>> rituals, by which a
population becomes rather beyond the inherent racial composition
micro-evolutionary polytypical: a homogenious polymorphism which as
local formation with conditioned by selective pruning and isolation
may land a new race, as stated by the German ethnologist R.
Thurnwald:
<< Das Ineinander-Heiraten nahe Verwandter, wie es durch die vielen
heiratsordnungen der Naturvölker bedingt wird, führt in
Verbindung
mit Isolation und Ausles zu einer Specializierung der erblichen
Anlagen in Auseinandersetzung mit den gegebenen Umwelt.
Daher haben wir es zunächst mit Lokalrassen zu tun.
Aus der Ähnnlichheit verwandter und benachbarter Lokalrassen
abstraheren wir weitere Rassentypen.
Von solchen durch lange Zeiträumen gezüchteten Primärrassen
müssen
wir sekundären Typen und Volksgestaltung unterscheiden, die das
Ergebnis von Mengung und Mischung ist.>>
So, this option allows to see an anthropological continuum in Europe
only faintly contaminated by alien incursion, limited in duration and
spread, as well in contigency, basically a Cromagnid-Predmost trunk
rivalling and loosing field to the Magdalénian derivatives, but
independently or in various solution or interspersed will evolve in
the present Paleo-Atlantids allied with their gracilized Nordid and
Mediterranid descendants.
Hence the presence alongside of Nordids, Mediterranids and Cromagnids
in the Körös Culture, prolonging untill the arrival of the
Alpine and
Taurid Celts in the Carpathian Basin, and so on, by which the
newcomers only reinforce in stead of replace the local composition,
very much as the Frankish invaders would secure the Nordid character
in North and Northeastern France.
The theory of Mediterrenean diffusion becomes forestalled, since
gracility was long since an acquisition of the Predmost race, who
epitomed the Old Europeans and has to be considered as ancestral to
perhaps all, including the large-headed as partly <<foetilized>>
brachycephals, racial stocks of our Continent.

The swing towards brachycephaly can be interpreted as another process
to gracilization, but probably much more than a progressive
refinement of cranial traits it makes compulsoryly for neoteny, i.e.
retaining juvenile or even foetal somatic features during adulthood,
with no significant relationship to climatical habitat. Though
brachycephaly would be advantageous in cold areas, roundheadedness is
found as well at latitudes normally not associated with low
temperatures(the Central African Pygmees, the Polynesians in the
South Seas and many Amerindians) nor goes it hand in hand with
general reduction of bodysize and limb proportions.
Temperature doesn't seem either to tamper with head lenght, but
in
hot dry areas the head breadth tends to smallness, albeit that the
Magdalénian Chancelade type introduced a diminuative head lenght
compared to Cro Magnon and Combe Capelle, and a narrower skull than
often the case among Cromagnids and even many Neanderthalers(La
Chapelle: Cr. Breadth 156mm, La Ferrassie: Cr. Breadth 159mm; Cro
Magnon: Cr.Breadth: 150mm), so at least in the Europid branch the
zoomorphological and climatic rules, whereby adaptation to cold
stress results in shaping the body bulk as much as possible
spherical, to expose only a small surface area to a cool surrounding
that inflicts severe heat loss, wouldn't apply unambiguously and
not
in the direction of a fully-fledged stabilized acclimatized
speciation for sure; the cold and dampness of the Final Bronze Age in
Europe may have necessitate an increase of brachycephalic types, as
well in the arctic condition of the Solustréan, though the
cephalic
index must have stayed within the range of high mesocephaly, in
Japan and maong the protomorphic Uralics coldness verges on
dolichocephaly, the Neanderthalers were all dolichoid, bar those of
Krapina who lived in the warm prae-Würm!
Brachycephaly for the most should be conceived as connected to the
problem of neoteny, as Louis Bolk would put it, " …fetal
conditions
that have become permanent".Asley Montagu hints to the fact that
up
to the sixth fetal month the head tends to be long:"…the
transforming
process in some groups of humanity were retarded and, growing weaker,
the initial fetal form of the skull was incresingly retained, until ,
finally, brachycephaly was established as the persisting form of the
head. After the sixth month the fetal cephalic index varies from
mesocephalic 75.9-79.9 to brachycephalic 80.0 to 84.9.".
The latter means are characteristically for the Furfooz and Möen-
Borreby-Plau races, races known for being ortognathious and rather
large body sizes, which are further expressions for neoteny, which
classify them as more as modern evolved races than singular
unadultered UP survivors(though moderation or absence of browridges
aren't associated with these Northwesterners, except the Furfooz
race
which underwent and ahead to its primary forms of the Mesolithic
facial reduction and a lower stature, growing more paedomorphic but
never excatly attaining the infantil-boreal character of the Ofnet
brachycephals or the Lappids).

The greatest error in writing a racial history of Europe was the
exagerration of the distribution and role of the Alpine race, which
like a devil in disguise gleefully reveals itself in local centers of
brachycephalization..
The combination of globular or shortheadedness, shrunken body
proportions and, small statures and finally a brunet complexion are
in most textbook the criteria on which the Alpine race is determined.
In previous articles I have gone down to the specifics on which
Alpines can be recognized and distinguished from more southerly and
mountain dwelling races in Europe.
Suffice to say that the Alpine skull is capacious(Vallois states that
it attains 1450cc, but can reach up to 1600cc!), at least of medium
lenght but broad, globular or broken up like in Borreby and
platicephalic(low to moderate vaulted; the Scandinavian Alpine has a
LHI of ca.70), the body is stocky, pykno-mesomorphic but more gracile
forms are as common, the stature is medium(ca.165cm); both Coon and
Biasutti agree that the complexion runs from blond to brunet, but
formost the intermediary pigments are the rule.
The brachycephalics of the Belgian province Luxemburg should probably
be considered as exponents of the Alpine race in its truest form; the
means for head lenght and breadth are 186mm and 157mm, still
profoundly large-headed(L+B) and 3-4 units smaller than the Belgian
mean(190/1mm+160mm), which is more of Borreby inspiration; btw, is it
mere coincidence, elicit by precipitancy and overworking,,or repeats
the Luxemburger average head lenght not the same as in the Ibero-
Insular and Danubian groups, races who emerged during the Neolithic
period and represent a more linear, slender body build in association
with small stature(smaller than the modern Alpine who is 165cm tall,
while the Ibero-Insular falls down on 160cm and the Danubians were
as moderate as the Alpines and reach as well minima like 153cm) ;
the Alpine maintained its bulkier built, but grew more pyknomorphic,
but all three miss the bony eminencies, muscularity and coarse
lateral built of the Cromagnoid races.
Alpines, Danubians and Ibero-insulars evolve paedomorphic traits.
The face height of the Alpine ranges from 120-122mm, the breadth is
large, 140mm; anthropometrically these measures overlap or approach
the means of the Borreby-derived population of Jaeder and Fehmarn, in
this respect the face is higher than the Danubian(116mm) whom is by
10units narrower(130mm) and the Ibero-Insular has too a rather short
face, which appears the opposite by its narrow breadth, although
it's
by its facial index leptoprosopic, 89.23, while Alpines and Borreby
alike are mesoprosopic.
The Ibero-Insular has a straight-bridged nose, as has Alpines and
Borreby; these two have, though, noses which are short, broad(yet
coverting to leptorhinity) and assume a thick, elevated tip, but
according to Biasutti the norm is a short, rather high-rooted nose
with a straight bridge, while the retroussé type characterizes the
East Baltic race. The snub nose is common possession of the Upper
Palaeolithic races; since I have proven on Körös and the
Linearband
the nativity to Europe of these cultures and the mixed composition,
containing Nordic, Mediterrenean and Cromagnid elements, all
experiencing a make-over process of physical, i.e. postcranial and
constitutional gracilization, and since the Danubian dolichoid type
doesn't rule out an appraisement in either a Nordic as a
Mediterrenean sense, by which it should be conceived as a primitive,
mixomorphic type, the possessing certain qualities midway these two
races, flowing morphologically into each other, but consitute a
decissive, morphological and biological unit. The sparse Cromagnid
component reflects an interstadial condition during the racial
evolution and formative process in which nevertheles the group
confirms to a single, close-knitted and panmictic breeding stock, far
more than absorption and cross-breeding with residual mesolithic
locals. Finally, we don't know much about the ratios of certain
taxons in these early neolithic entities, personally, after Murat in
our backstream conversations reminded me that the outline of the
occiput of the Borreby is comparable to the Pontic race and Kossinna
hints on some Danubian influence on the formation of Borreby in the
upswept occiput, I urge a more reversed admixture, Borreby and Plau
predate the Danubians and must from the end of the mesolithic till
far into the Bronze Age had a maximum territorial extension from the
Atlantic over the North European Plain into both Scandinavia and the
Danubian-Balkanic tract and underway altered incoming gracilized
races and participating in their further development, another
possibility takes them as an endemic element to these entities. Since
mesocephaly is integral to the Borreby race, it wouldn't have
worked
yet as brachycephalization agent, then again the skull shapes are
strikingly different, ovoid for the Borreby, ellipsoid for the
Danubians with flattened parientals.
Danubians, being meso- to platyrhinic, the nose takes a small,
concave and blunted form, a snubbed nose type not unlike EB and
Alpines.
In Central and Eastern Europe, where the Danubians and columns of
native European first farmers originated, snub-nosed are
indiscriminantly associated with both brachycephalic and
mesocephalic, high-vaulted and either blond or more brunet races: so
whatever happened to the descendants of the Danubian main type?
Schaginhaufen's revelation on the blond brachycephals in
Switzerland,
only 6% of the population, and often mesorhine and mesoprosopic, but
predominantly leptorhine aand leptoprosopic, of medium body height,
with rounded occiput, slightly receding forehead that appears high
and full, could be the leading representation of the danubian in its
present-day form in the Celtic-Germanic countries, with due reserve,
while the Danubian head breadth could under impetus of the
brachycephalization broaden up to 3-4 units and shorten similarly in
lenght, and still attain a cephalic index in the mesocephalic range.
The situation of the Auvergne, Central France, supports the
implication of increased local "alpinoid" brachycephalisation
out
of , in Coon's sense, Mediterranid stocks, with deceiving
properties
like a mesene upper face, relatively broad nose, small stature,
brunet complexion and paedomorphism.
The Auvergne includes the departments of Allier, Cantal, Haute-Loire
and Puy-de-Dôme, one-time teritory of the Celtic tribe of the
Avernii.
Vallois devices it with Brittany to create a large area going from
the Atlantic seaboard into the Massif Central, anthropologically
gathering a population marked by medium tall brachycephals with
chestnut hair and light eyes.
France was for instance in the Iron Age predominantly dolichomorphic,
the Beaumes Chaude type nearly disappears and is replaced by the
Genay type, which Vallois holds for Proto-mediterrenean and
corresponds with the Danubian. The Auvergne is no exception to this
rule and burial mounds only contained dolichoid finds. Only in the
Parisian Basin, Brittany and the Languedoc are brachycephals present
and their proportion in the population is constantly feeble.
Even in the Middle Ages, the Auvergne couldn't have been a
concentration of Alpines and it hadn't been strongly touched by
the
trend of brachycephalisation, which in France seemingly occured with
a gradual leptoprosopy and reduction of the maxillae.
Bouchereau's material reveal short(179.5mm) and narrow(141.8mm)
skulls, resulting in a Cr.I of 79, highly mesocranial and orthocranial
(LHI 72.9), the face is narrow, 126mm, broad-nosed, N.I.48.1 and
mesene, 52.4.
The study further indicate that in recent times the average head
became rounder and broader(l= 176.3mm,b= 145.5) and attains a
subbrachycephalic mean of 82.5, while still orthocranial, the basion-
bregmatic height reduced from 131 to 128.4.
The body lenght increased as well from general medium height in 1880
(164-165.9cm) to fairly tall heights above 170cm today. The eyes are
rather mixed than light, which is more frequent in Brittany, and in
equivalence with dark eyes. Leptoprosopy and leptorhinity are common.
It illustrates that the problem of brachycephaly and the Alpine race
are two distinct study objects and not to be intertwined.

RoundskullBoredguy
Sunday, October 26th, 2003, 07:18 PM
Overweight/rotund/stocky people tend to be brachycephalic (and vice versa). The 'fat genes' cause brachycephaly (?).

You are one confused son of a baleen whale. I'm a slender/somewhat muscular brachycephal. And, to the last guy who posted, brachycephaly is no "problem." Of course, I understand your position, seeing as you're probably one of those people whose skulls look like they've been thoroughly pressure-washed.

(*aka Nords ;))