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Glenlivet
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 09:50 PM
"b ljusa (väst)nordider (N)

En särskild, hithörande underras är väl den storvuxna och ljusögda, men mörkhåriga nordatlantina rasen (något q-rikare), även om den i viss mån är en "mellanras" mellan nordider (av götatyp) och insuliner.

Bertil Lundman, p. 134, Jordens Människoraser och Folkstammar, Kärntryck, Åstorp, 1943

Translation (Swedish to English):

b light (west)Nordids (N)

A particular, subrace belonging here is well the big-bodied
and light eyed, but dark haired North Atlantid race (somewhat q-richer), although it is to some extent an "intermediary race" between Nordids (of Götatyp) and Insular's.

Irland och Högskottland ha föga av dylik medelhavsras (om den se nedan!), men dess mer av en egendomlig bland -eller övergångstyp mellan denna och nordrasen, som är mörkhårig, men storväxt och ljusögd. Denna sistnämnda typ är även mycket vanlig bland de 100-procentiga amerikanarna av gamla familjer, vilka till stor del härstamma från under 1600-talet flyktande skotska och nordengelska sekterister.

[p. 17, Nutidens Människoraser by Bertil Lundman, Uppsala, 1946]

Translation (Swedish to English):

Ireland and the Scottish Highlands have very little of such Mediterranean race (about it look below!), but the more of a peculiar mix - or transitionary type between this and the Nordid race, which is dark haired, but taller statured and light eyed. This last-mentioned type is also very common among the 100 percent Americans of old families, who to a large extent descend from under the 17th century fleeing Scottish and North English sectarians.


"The North-Atlantid race is probably only a variety of the North race. To be sure the North-Atlantid race is a native race, but more southerly accentuated and more pigmented. This is a result of a less cold, but damper climate and contact with the more pigmented European races."

[Bertil Lundman, New York : IAAEE, 1977]

Lundman (1943) made a comparison between the names of races in Europe among different researchers. In his table Deniker's nord-occidentale, Czekanowski's nordvästlig (Swedish translation, meaning northwestern in English), Bunak's nordatlantisk (Swedish translation, English North-Atlantid), Saller's nordoccidental, Günther had none, Nordenstreng nordvästlig, v. Eickstedt's nordatlantid and Lundman's nordatlantin, which is a sub-race of his (west)-Nordid race.

I think that Thomas Gibson and Ben Affleck have a North-Atlantid phenotype.

Thomas Gibson:
http://www.chicagohope.de/pics/thomas1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/tresjolie9/chair.jpg

Ben Affleck:
http://www.celebrity-exchange.com/celebs/photos42/ben-affleck.jpg
http://www.project-equinox.de/dvd/pictures/cast/ben_affleck.jpg

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 11:33 PM
1. Hugh Grant (I know that some would call him Anglo-Saxon, but other components are needed for that, and he obviously resemble the others)

2. Gene Kelly

3. Huw Irranca-Davies

4. Jason London

5. Montgomery Clift

6. Pierce Brosnan

7. Ben Bradshaw

Fred
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 12:20 AM
North Atlantids. I hate them, they get all the women.

Vojvoda
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 12:27 AM
North Atlantids. I hate them, they get all the women.
:lmao :rotfl

QuietWind
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 01:38 AM
Okay, I have a stupid question that I have wondered about and maybe this is better in another forum rather than this thread but.......

What is the difference between "Atlantid," "North Atlantid," "Paleo-Atlantid," and "Atlanto-med?" All those "Atlantid" terms confuse me. :(

Glenlivet
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 01:48 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=13871&highlight=palaeo-atlantid

That may help you. I should just say that Trönder is more correctly East-Nordid (info from a racial tree in Dala-Allmogens Antropologi by Lundman) though.

Coon's often blue-eyed Atlanto-Mediterranid in Ireland and Scotland is possibly the same as Lundman's North-Atlantid of the same regions.





What is the difference between "Atlantid," "North Atlantid," "Paleo-Atlantid," and "Atlanto-med?" All those "Atlantid" terms confuse me. :(

Glenlivet
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 10:51 AM
Matthew Perry.

Rhydderch
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 01:39 PM
Hugh Grant has a distinct Atlanto-Mediterranean influence in his phenotype. I don't believe there is any such thing as a North-Atlantid race as a distinct type. It seems to me that it is a mixture, in varying degrees, of Atlanto-Med, Muge and Brunn.
There are certain correlations I have noticed which indicate that the Litoroid is the only dark race in the British Isles which has a heavy build.
Atlanto-Meds are slimly built and (in mixture) often enough blue-eyed; however, pure Atlanto-Med morphology actually tends to be correlated with olive skin and (small) dark eyes.

I also think there may be no such thing as Palaeo-Atlantid, unless we are going to give names to varying and arbitrarily classified mixtures. To me this seems as illogical as giving a special name to people who are half Negro and then another special name to those who are one third Negro etc. We would end up with infinite names describing all the varying degrees of mixture. I don't believe it is this complicated.

I have found that it is possible to identify distinct types even in a mixed population by way of correlations. In fact, this way, one does not necessarily have to see any pure representatives in order to identify a type.
For whatever reason, the traits of a distinct type tend to be linked up. Personally I think the reason for this may be a (currently little known) genetic phenomenon called quasi-linkage, whereby chromosomes segregate non-randomly, through influence of the genes contained in them.
I think it is conceivable that this phenomenon is largely responsible (together with selective factors, of course) for racial differentiation, and the formation of racial types throughout the world.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM
I don't believe there is any such thing as a North-Atlantid race as a distinct type. It seems to me that it is a mixture, in varying degrees, of Atlanto-Med, Muge and Brunn.

There's a variation in all populations and types. It's not dogmatic. I think that North-Atlantid has one of the least variable forms of Europid. Deniker's nord-occidentale is a type that is neither Mediterranid or Nordid enough, but inbetween these ideal types. It's either due to recent hybridisation between incoming Nordids from Northern Europe or a transitionary type between low-skulled and long-headed Insular Mediterranid and Nordid Göta.

The North-Atlantid is defined in a specific way, and we need to improve our observation skills if there's too much variation (which I cannot see) in our examples. I would agree that the North-Atlantic population have various traits though.

What is your source of information? Please tell me a bit about the Muge traits that would be part of the North-Atlantid makeup.


It seems to me that it is a mixture, in varying degrees, of Atlanto-Med, Muge and Brunn.
There are certain correlations I have noticed which indicate that the Litoroid is the only dark race in the British Isles which has a heavy build.
Atlanto-Meds are slimly built and (in mixture) often enough blue-eyed; however, pure Atlanto-Med morphology actually tends to be correlated with olive skin and (small) dark eyes.

"Certainly, the most archaic morphological type of the Mediterranean subrace is that known as Upper Palaeolithic, sometimes also called Galley Hill or Combe Capelle (or, by Coon, the “Bruenn race”) from type fossil finds in Europe, and also frequently referred to as Atlanto-Mediterranean (Deniker). This exceptionally long-headed type is notable for the great size of the brain-case and its rugged bony construction. The face is commonly long and massive, but it may be rather short, perhaps oftenest when bodily stature is below medium. The jaws are nearly always deep and heavy. It seems improbable that this type, when identified in Wales, Cornwall, and Ireland, or elsewhere, represents the pure lineal descendants of Upper Palaeolithic men. It is more likely to be due to recombination of genetic factors from old strains. It is hard to believe that anywhere in Europe there are inbred, unmixed survivors of Palaeolithic colonies. This type, which is easy to recognize, but does not easily lend itself to selection by any mechanical sorting process, is fairly common in Iran and Iraq an probably elsewhere in the Middle East. In Ireland, England, and the United States, a very closely similar type, that differs only in that eyes are mixed instead of dark, is sorted out as the residual Nordic-Mediterranean type, on the assumption that the lightening of eye pigmentation is due to admixture with the blond Nordic stock. This may or may not be the correct interpretation. There are virtually no pure dark eyes (medium brown, dark brown, or black) in Ireland, and hence, by sorting criteria, practically no pure Mediterraneans. However, the type, complete with dark eyes and dark hair, seems a little commoner in Britain and the United States."

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/


I also think there may be no such thing as Palaeo-Atlantid, unless we are going to give names to varying and arbitrarily classified mixtures. To me this seems as illogical as giving a special name to people who are half Negro and then another special name to those who are one third Negro etc.

Palaeo-Atlantid, Tydal, and the reduced and darked Berid, are all phenotypically similar rest races in Western Europe, and like North-Atlantid they are also defined in their specific ways.

There is no such thing as purity, it's in the minds of people when they compare to a defined type on paper. Not all people in a more or less genetically homogenous and isolated population will reach the average defined morphological-typological form for the geographically limited folk stock.

Milesian
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Can you describe the Muge type?

Milesian
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 03:47 PM
'tis okay, I found a description here:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/coon_neolithic.html

Vetinari
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 08:17 PM
What about this young lady? Would she be considered North-Atlantid?

http://www.unison.ie/images_papers/news/41/10281/pictures/297514.jpg

Glenlivet
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 08:37 PM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-XI15.htm
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV6.htm
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV5.htm

Muge was very small.

Swedish anthropologist Rolf Nordenstreng mentioned the name of Scots Poet Robert Burns as an Atlanto-Mediterranid.



'tis okay, I found a description here:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/coon_neolithic.html

Glenlivet
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Her face height is too low and her bizygomatic breadth is probably too great. I would place her in the same group as Andrea Corr, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Shannen Doherty, Palaeo-Atlantid.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=18519&highlight=doherty

North-Atlantid is long-headed and leptoprosopic. Fleure wrote that although many of the long-headed stand between the Nordid and Mediterranid, that is taken only as a comfortable abstraction (Nordenstreng), made by anthropologists, they do not need to have a mutual crossing to thank for their origin, but that is rather more plausible, as these (meaning Nordid and Mediterranid), they are derived through a reconstruction from early neanthropic long-skulls.

I also think that if one can in the North-Atlantid see something independent, then in that case it's likely that the more robust Irish type is merely a more proto-morphic, robuster form of the same or a similar proto-group (compare the rather firm chin and strong jaw, even if the North-Atlantid has sharper facial contours). I can see that in someone like Courtney Cox, whom in my opinion is a very beautiful, progressive looking women.

Courtney Cox:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~rn6d-hnd/people/courtney_cox.jpg

I compared to the broader-faced Irish type because the other traits are quite similar. Let us take an example, you have a Mary Donaldson if you take a Courtney Cox and make her broader-faced, more neotenic, with a shorter and more concave nose.

Mary Donaldson:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,213009,00.jpg

Make her even rounder and you have Martine McCutcheon:
http://cgi.bbc.co.uk/totp/images/artist_photos/martine_mccutcheon.jpg

After all, Hooton wrote, "the most archaic morphological type of the Mediterranean subrace is that known as Upper Palaeolithic, sometimes also called Galley Hill or Combe Capelle (or, by Coon, the “Bruenn race”) from type fossil finds in Europe, and also frequently referred to as Atlanto-Mediterranean (Deniker). This exceptionally long-headed type is notable for the great size of the brain-case and its rugged bony construction. The face is commonly long and massive, but it may be rather short, perhaps oftenest when bodily stature is below medium. The jaws are nearly always deep and heavy."

The difference would be that Coon called the "Bruenn race" an UP survivor and Hooton Mediterranid, although he did write "Mediterranean subrace is that known as Upper Palaeolithic". Hooton saw different origins of Mediterranid. The similarity that would warrant them to be called Mediterranid is probably that the refined forms have developed towards a similar phenotype. One must also note that the "Megalithic race" was more Nordid than anything else in facial features, and the blue eyes and tall stature that Coon saw can hardly be called Mediterranid. What they mostly differ (from Scando-Nordids) is the darker (although almost never black!) hair colour.

Another interesting passage is: "The face is commonly long and massive, but it may be rather short, perhaps oftenest when bodily stature is below medium."

As one can see with the Irish type, although they are supposed to be quite tall, they are indeed stockier, and perhaps the shorter statured cases have a shorter face, but the rule is a great morphological face height.

The Irish Brünn (Clare, Ireland) below from Coon does indeed fit in the description of North-Atlantid.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe093.jpg

I think that Hooton had a good point.



What about this young lady? Would she be considered North-Atlantid?

Vetinari
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Her face height is too low and her bizygomatic breadth is probably too great. I would place her in the same group as Andrea Corr, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Shannen Doherty, Palaeo-Atlantid.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=18519&highlight=doherty

Now that is a group that I would certainly like to be a part of! :D

Glenlivet
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 10:34 PM
I think that Edward Burns is also a good example of North-Atlantid.

http://movieshop.ru/catalog/people/000400/000471/i.jpg

Odin Biggles
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 01:10 AM
What about this young lady? Would she be considered North-Atlantid?

http://www.unison.ie/images_papers/news/41/10281/pictures/297514.jpg
She looks like a Welsh person i used to know.

Glenlivet
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 01:18 AM
Who is this woman? I know that she has been posted on Skadi before but I forgot her name.



She looks like a Welsh person i used to know.

Odin Biggles
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 01:20 AM
I dont know, i tried copying the address from properties but it doesnt provide a name.

Glenlivet
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 01:24 AM
I did the same now. The URL is Irish, so I assume that she is Irish.

I have also seen Welsh women who look like her. :)



I dont know, i tried copying the address from properties but it doesnt provide a name.

Rhydderch
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 10:37 AM
The North-Atlantid is defined in a specific way, and we need to improve our observation skills if there's too much variation (which I cannot see) in our examples. I would agree that the North-Atlantic population have various traits though.There's not necessarily too much variation in the examples you have given, it's just that I think they have a mixture of traits which do not have a high frequency of correlation.


What is your source of information? Please tell me a bit about the Muge traits that would be part of the North-Atlantid makeup.I have got quite a bit of my information from Coon, via the SNPA site. However, what I know of the Muge type is largely from from what I have observed. The descriptions I have read say that this type is characterised by short stature, delicate build, and a fairly small head with dolicho/low mesocephaly. Additional characteristics which I have myself noticed are high orbits and cheekbones, straight or concave nose with slightly upturned tip, everted lower lip; prognathism is fairly common. Another distinctive trait is that the back of the vault is noticably higher than the front. They usually have straight hair, and the best morphological examples of the type tend to have typically Mediterranean colouring.
I actually think they may be the race which has given rise to stories of fairies and leprechauns; as well as the other fairy-like traits, the top of the ears are distinctively pointed upwards! (though of course, not in such an exaggerated manner as the legends would have us believe)


Palaeo-Atlantid, Tydal, and the reduced and darked Berid, are all phenotypically similar rest races in Western Europe, and like North-Atlantid they are also defined in their specific ways. I have no doubt as to the existence of the Tydal type; I have seen many Germans and Scandinavians who look Tydal, and its traits seem to be correlated. In some facial characteristics, and in pigmentation, it is not unlike the Muge type.
In fact I think the Berid type may possibly be the one I refer to as Muge. If so, then there is a reasonably strong Berid sub-stratum in the population of Britain and Ireland


There is no such thing as purity, it's in the minds of people when they compare to a defined type on paper. Not all people in a more or less genetically homogenous and isolated population will reach the average defined morphological-typological form for the geographically limited folk stock.The point I made earlier about quasi-linkage is that I think many types may not be so arbitrarily defined as many people think. Many (if not all) 'types' have traits which recombine (even in a population consisting of a number of such types which have intermarried over thousands of years) much more frequently than one would expect if genetic recombination were a totally random process; i.e. one sees many individuals of thoroughly mixed 'sub-racial' ancestry whose phenotype conforms very well to just one distinct ancestral sub-race.

Milesian
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 10:46 AM
In fact I think the Berid type may possibly be the one I refer to as Muge

I don't think so as the Berid tends to be stocky and brachycephalic

Rhydderch
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 11:01 AM
I don't think so as the Berid tends to be stocky and brachycephalicInteresting. In that case the Berid is perhaps the very dark-complexioned type found among (in particular) Spaniards, Portuguese and South Italians, referred to by Coon as a "coarse Mediterranean mesocephal". I think I have also seen Greeks of this type.
But perhaps, as you said, the Berids are more often brachy- rather than mesocephalic.

Glenlivet
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Berid is a Mediterranid. It's defined as long-headed.

c. Southern, Dark-Pigmented, Short-Statured Group:
1. Berid Race: more infantile-puerile, with low frequencies of blood type genes p and q.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races4.htm

"This race is broader-formed in face and nose, but very similar to the West-Mediterranean race in the other anthropological traits - such as head form and pigmentation. The Berid race is also low in the frequency of blood type genes p and q."

"In the Perigord there is even a region predominantly Berid in race."

"The rest of the Iberian peninsula is principally South-Mediterranid, with Berid strains in the Sierra Nevada region."

"On the Aegean islands we often encounter a rather primitive, dark, long- and low-skulled strain, probably of the Berid race." (thus they are found in Greece)

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundraces.htm

"Most of the Berids live in the more unfavorable areas of southwestern Europe. In part they were forced there by other races. In the case of the Berids, we evidently have before us a more original type."

"The Alpine race arose only rather late through brachycephalization in the poorer and colder regions of Berids and Berid-mixtures. The origins of this race can be traced back to the Neolithic period. But only in the Middle Ages is the Alpine race more strongly prominent." (thus, according to Lundman, some Berids became brachycephalised and formed the west-Alpinid, more on the issue of alpinisation: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=220460#post220460)

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races2.htm







Interesting. In that case the Berid is perhaps the very dark-complexioned type found among (in particular) Spaniards, Portuguese and South Italians, referred to by Coon as a "coarse Mediterranean mesocephal". I think I have also seen Greeks of this type.
But perhaps, as you said, the Berids are more often brachy- rather than mesocephalic.

Glenlivet
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 05:24 PM
it's just that I think they have a mixture of traits which do not have a high frequency of correlation.

What is the difference with other types?


The point I made earlier about quasi-linkage is that I think many types may not be so arbitrarily defined as many people think. Many (if not all) 'types' have traits which recombine (even in a population consisting of a number of such types which have intermarried over thousands of years) much more frequently than one would expect if genetic recombination were a totally random process; i.e. one sees many individuals of thoroughly mixed 'sub-racial' ancestry whose phenotype conforms very well to just one distinct ancestral sub-race.

I have written most of the text below elsewhere on the net, but here we go again. Some anthropologist focused on populations (mainly Lundman) and others on types. A phenotype can of course arise at different places by similar traits that are passed on. You may find different genetic markers when you compare such individuals though. But it's a case-by-case study.

There's for example a tendency of depigmentation in certain parts of Europe, but the traits don't always come in a lump. You can find individuals who have brown eyes and blonde hair, and those with blue eyes and dark brown hair (common in parts of the British Isles, particularly Ireland and the Scottish highlands). Everything can be called a blend of inherited traits. We can speak of various physical characteristics.

Types are segregated (but always with some difference from ancestors, otherwise we would all have the same genes, wouldn't we, so we have what is called random assortment of genes) over and over again within a population that show various physical traits. It occurs via recombination which was first observed by Thomas Hunt Morgan and his student (I can't remember his name). Recombination involves breaking (and re-forming) chromosomes. Genes on the same chromsome are linked, Mendel's Second Law refer to genes on different chromosomes. But linked genes too can cross over during prophase 1 of meiosis and assort independently, producing new combination of genes.

Convergent set of physical traits pop up here and there in Europe, which may mean that an atypical individual for a region show the traits of a once foreign group that produced offspring with the local people. The physical traits have in that case been passed on, but we can't be sure if he or she share more genetic relations (then I don't mean just a marker, but autosomal DNA) with the locals or the foreign group just by observing the visible traits, the phenotype. The physical traits can though selection increase but the group may predominantly have a different genetic lineage from a more ancient people (perhaps the dualism of somewhat different interpretations made in population genetic and physical anthropology studies of the population in the case of pre-Celts and Celts of Ireland?).

Furthermore, you can't make a direct link between a genetic marker and a physical characteristic in the individual.

I can agree that some individuals are descended more from one lineage with its specific characteristics that distinguish it from neighbouring ones while there are others who show a physique or markers from more lineages. However, it's difficult to determine, even with someone from an isolated region. You can also compare populations and describe their differences, but you can't lump all individuals in a population with all other individuals in the population just because they are born in the same region. I can bet that you can find both physical and genetic traits that distinguish one family from anoter in a rather small region (even in inner Sardinia), and of course more so in regions with larger populations.

The French scientist Marcelin Boule (Les hommes fossiles, 1921, p. 321) wrote something that still hold true; that in the study of the origin of humans, not less than about the animals, and in Europe and elsewhere, the race can hardly be constituted of something else than an abstraction, a sort of ideal type, around it small tinges are assembled, arisen through branchings, or rather juxtaposition of traits, borrowed from different original components.

Topinard, his countryman, also said that neither the type or the race are in the present condition of humanity any objective reality.

Boule continued, but this does not implicate that it would be something absolute futile to carry out research after this ideal bodily type. One can still descry it among individuals
or bands of of individuals who have stayed closer to their original genesis, either if they through barriers have evaded external influences or show up a branching of prevailing distinctions similar to the ideal type's.

So, we could say that what is left of a race, is that inherited distinguishing characteristics are often and readily joined in the individual, and thus, among certain folk and group of folks a certain type is so common, that some may for practical reasons call it "a pure race". No race is absolutely pure though, not either in the strictly conscious selection of the creation of the domestic animals: rhere are long-headed and shorth-headed among the among the Foxterries, brown-white as well as black-white and also those with three colours. However, there is a range for all races. Apple trees, although varied, always become apple trees and not pear trees. The species can be compared to a river that has its limits along the beaches, given in the height relations of the ground. This does not inhibit that the river flow forward. The development of the species is many times sinuous as the course of the river, and as the river can branch, the species also branches into races. The species seem very fluent and uncertain to modern research, and it is even harder to distinguish between races, mutually as well as in relation to the species. One speak of the variation latitude of the types.

Rhydderch
Friday, November 19th, 2004, 10:19 AM
There's for example a tendency of depigmentation in certain parts of Europe, but the traits don't always come in a lump. You can find individuals who have brown eyes and blonde hair, and those with blue eyes and dark brown hair (common in parts of the British Isles, particularly Ireland and the Scottish highlands). Everything can be called a blend of inherited traits. We can speak of various physical characteristics.I'm not denying that one can find individuals with blond hair and brown eyes, it's just that even in small villages where there are dark heads and blond heads, the blond headed are, on average, more frequently blue eyed than the dark headed; this is what I mean by a correlation.
Anthropologists have also observed that there are correlations between other traits.
For instance, in a survey of the population of the Isle of Man, anthropologist found that among long-headed men, those with a stature of 5'6"-5'7" were more frequently dark pigmented than those of 5'9"-5'10". However, men 5'11" and taller were on average darker pigmented than those of medium stature (5'9" etc.)

This kind of correlation occurs even in small villages such as Mendonck in Flanders which was surveyed by Houze:

"Houzé's regressions (or correlations) make it clear that there are, in this Mendonck population, two clearly distinguishable types, a Frankish Nordic, with a stature of about 167 cm., and leptorrhine; and a Borreby type with a stature of 171 cm., and a mesorrhine tendency. The tall brachycephals have a heavy body build, a broad face, a deep, heavy jaw, short upper facial segment, and heavy browridges. The Nordic type runs more to prominence and length of nose and upper face, and less to bony eminences in general. It is a more delicate, less massive type."

One could argue that Borrebys and "Frankish Nordics" have tended to intermarry largely within their own racial type; however, this seems unlikely given that they have co-existed in the same isolated area for thousands of years.
My hypothesis is that quasi-linkage may have been instrumental in forming (and perpetuating in a mixed population) different races and types.

But Quasi-Linkage per se is not my own hypothesis, it is a phenomenon which has been observed by scientist since the early 1900's; it is in fact, an exception to Mendel's law of random segregation of chromosomes.

Glenlivet
Friday, November 19th, 2004, 11:31 PM
Fleure (1925) made some interesting remarks on the population of the British Isles, which correspond well with Lundman's more modern writings. The North-Atlantid fit in the statements "the long-headed type has become neither purely Nordic nor purely Mediterranean", "betwixt and between", "Intermediate Types".

"The provinces of Nordic and Mediterranean races are widely separated by the mountain zone of Central Europe, but in the west they grade into one another, and here the long-headed type has become neither purely Nordic nor purely Mediterranean."

"The mass of the population of our islands is long-headed and intermediate in character between the two differentiated races, tall, gaunt, and dark in parts of the Scottish Highlands and North Wales, short and almost Mediterranean in parts of South Wales and Ireland, 'betwixt and between' almost everywhere. Probably almost every hundred, not to say every parish, of the British Isles has examples of these Intermediate Types, as well, of course, as of Nordics due to immigrations from Scandinavia and the Baltic."

Herbert John Fleure D.Sc., THE PEOPLES OF EUROPE, p. 11-16, Oxford University Press, Humphrey Milford, 1925
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=26572

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 04:20 AM
I'm not denying that one can find individuals with blond hair and brown eyes, it's just that even in small villages where there are dark heads and blond heads, the blond headed are, on average, more frequently blue eyed than the dark headed; this is what I mean by a correlation.

There are different correlations depending on regions. Blonde hair is, as an example, correlated with blue eyes in Sweden. That is not true for all regions of Europe.


Anthropologists have also observed that there are correlations between other traits.

Yes, there are. An example I wrote on a thread on alpinisation; There is also a correlation between debrachycephalisation associated with the tallest mothers or daughters and that this comes about through the variations in head length. There is also a significant preferential relationship between the cases of height increase and those of the depigmentation of the iris, x2 = 5.43 for one standard deviation. The relationship of depigmentation and height increase is very close in men, whereas the women show the closest relationship between the phenomena of depigmentation and of debrachycephalisation. One may conclude that there’s a contemporary evolution towards a closer approximation of the tall, dolichocephalic, light-eyed phenotype. (Ginette Belly, 1980).


My hypothesis is that quasi-linkage may have been instrumental in forming (and perpetuating in a mixed population) different races and types.

I don't disagree, traits can disappear and reappear in a certain pattern from generation to generation.

In classical "dihybrid" crosses the F2 Phenotypes occurs in the ratio 9:3:3:1. Examples are eye colour, height, and hair (one gene controlling colour of pigment and another dilution of the pigment) colour.

Rhydderch
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 12:19 PM
There are different correlations depending on regions. Blonde hair is, as an example, correlated with blue eyes in Sweden. That is not true for all regions of Europe.That's basically the point I was making. In Scandinavia (and the British Isles) there is a distinct race (which anciently entered the population) with whom blond hair and blue eyes are still correlated.

I understand there are some areas in Europe where blond-headed people are more often brown eyed than blue eyed.
However, do you mean that there are some regions in Europe where blond-headed people are more often brown eyed than dark-headed people are?


Yes, there are. An example I wrote on a thread on alpinisation; There is also a correlation between debrachycephalisation associated with the tallest mothers or daughters and that this comes about through the variations in head length. There is also a significant preferential relationship between the cases of height increase and those of the depigmentation of the iris, x2 = 5.43 for one standard deviation. The relationship of depigmentation and height increase is very close in men, whereas the women show the closest relationship between the phenomena of depigmentation and of debrachycephalisation. One may conclude that there’s a contemporary evolution towards a closer approximation of the tall, dolichocephalic, light-eyed phenotype. (Ginette Belly, 1980).But what i'm referring to is the fact that correlations usually indicate the presence of distinct types. For example, Cro-magnon (or Brunn) morphology is correlated with red hair; but this does'nt mean that the majority of people with such a morphology have red hair; it simply means that they are more frequently red-haired than the general population.


In classical "dihybrid" crosses the F2 Phenotypes occurs in the ratio 9:3:3:1. Examples are eye colour, height, and hair (one gene controlling colour of pigment and another dilution of the pigment) colour.I'm not sure that you understand what I mean by the term "quasi-linkage". I know that genes on the same chromosome are linked, but "quasi-linkage" involves linkage of genes which are actually located on different chromosomes. It is something which is not mentioned in the usual books on genetics; the usual books always assert that segregation of non-homologous chromosomes is entirely random. But as I said in my previous post, some scientists have observed that such random segregation is not necessarily the case.

I would be interested to know if you or anyone else has ever heard of quasi-linkage; I would'nt be surprised if you have'nt, because it is not very well known. I only discovered it a few months ago when I decided to find out whether chromosome segregation really was, as is so often asserted, totally random. Certain observations I had made of physical types led me to consider that it may not be, so I was fascinated to find that there is such a thing as 'quasi-linkage', whereby non-homologous chromosomes segregate non-randomly.

Gil
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 12:52 PM
Just a sidenote to your discussion mates, the "atlantid" type found in the British Isles is not different from the "atlantid" type in, for example, Portugal or Italy.

The term "atlantid" itself is a neologism created to describe people who have dark hair and olive to medium-pale skin, mainly the dark-haired types found in Britain. One can argue that there are indeed subdivisions to this "atlantid" type, let us call them:
- the Iberian-Atlantid (the so-called "dark irish" types, the welsh and iberians proper (portuguese and spanish)

- the Nordic-Atlantid (sometimes called paleo-atlantid though I disagree on the term since "paleo" is used mainly to indicate a more primitive form and I believe the nordic-atlantids to be a more recent admixture)

Various degrees of pigmentation occurs in different subject and it's just a matter of simply logic to see that if a iberian-atlantid welshman lives in Portugal or Spain or Italy he will, undoubtfully, become more brunette simply because we have a more sunny and warmer climate while a portuguese iberian-atlantid might become more pale if he lives for some time in Ireland or Wales.

Sorry to disturb you highly-scientific argument with my generalistic approach ;)

Cheers

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Just a sidenote to your discussion mates, the "atlantid" type found in the British Isles is not different from the "atlantid" type in, for example, Portugal or Italy.

One can find a genetically, and to some extent phenotypically similar low-skulled population from northern Iberia to western Scandinavia. Southern Spain got a high-skulled (eastern)-Mediterranid though, that came from North-Africa.

I don't deny the existence of a North-Atlantid in northern parts of Iberia, and I have read about it, however, he, Lundman, who is my main source of info on the type, did not mention any North-Atlantid in Italy (although similar pigmentation combination can arise, and is probably quite common in many parts). Italy is Nordid-Alpinid-Dinarid in north, with an increase of Dinarids towards east. Sardinia is predominantly Berid, and they are also encountered somewhat in the mountain regions of southern Italy. There are Armenoids in Tuscany, around Naples (Napoli), perhaps they came with the Etruscans and slaves. Northern parts of Spain have both Scando-Nordid and North-Atlantid, there's supposedly some Alpinids in the mountains of Asturian mountains and down towards northern Portugal some Berid. There are, remarkably enough, around the ancient copper mines in SW Spain, still quite a lot of Armenoid.

Lundman wrote that "Iceland possesses strong North-Atlantic strains." (although they are largely Scando-Nordid with some Strandid Alpinoid from the western coast of Norway, and hints of Lapps, mostly the southern Varid) The people of southern Wales are quite Mediterranid, although alongside a lot of Scando-Nordid (probably Göta) and North-Atlantid. The Litoroid (predomintantly Mediterranid with some Armenoid traits) is still found in Cornwall, and elsewhere in northern Europe up to western Jutland. North-Atlantid is quite strong in the eastern parts of Ireland.



The term "atlantid" itself is a neologism created to describe people who have dark hair and olive to medium-pale skin, mainly the dark-haired types found in Britain.


I have to disagree here, the author is clear about their skin complexion, which is described as fair, if not more than Scando-Nordids. The populations where North-Atlantid is found in Ireland and moorlands of western England got also comparatively more red hair (Lundman, 1988). One can also find a somewhat different blood group frequencies.



One can argue that there are indeed subdivisions to this "atlantid" type, let us call them:
- the Iberian-Atlantid (the so-called "dark irish" types, the welsh and iberians proper (portuguese and spanish)


"The Palaeo-Atlantids are relatively unmixed and unaltered descendants of the Palaeolithic West European and North African Cro-Magnid race. The Cro-Magnids followed northwards the retreating ice boundary at the end of the Pleistocene. They lived as specialized hunters of the fauna inhabiting this part of Europe."



- the Nordic-Atlantid (sometimes called paleo-atlantid though I disagree on the term since "paleo" is used mainly to indicate a more primitive form and I believe the nordic-atlantids to be a more recent admixture)


I disagree that North-Atlantids are sometimes called Palaeo-Atlantid, unless you mean sites online that use the terms in different ways. The North-Atlantid is much more refined than the Palaeo-Atlantid and it's only natural as Palaeo is sometimes replaced by "old", Old-Atlantid (in Swedish: Gammalatlantiska, there is a similar form in Scandinavia, called Tydal).



Various degrees of pigmentation occurs in different subject and it's just a matter of simply logic to see that if a iberian-atlantid welshman lives in Portugal or Spain or Italy he will, undoubtfully, become more brunette simply because we have a more sunny and warmer climate while a portuguese iberian-atlantid might become more pale if he lives for some time in Ireland or Wales.[/QUOTE


I agree on the base of selection and adaptation to climate in the evolutionary sense, but not that a naturally darker pigmented individual would become what is often a pink-skinned North-Atlantid.

[QUOTE]Sorry to disturb you highly-scientific argument with my generalistic approach ;)

Cheers


Constructive criticism is appreciated.

Cheers ;)

Gil
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 02:32 PM
I agree with you, I was wrong to associate paleo-atlantid with the north-atlantid since the paleo type has changed less while the north-atlantid has mixed with some nordic strains and gained a different morphology.

Just to clarify the terms I use, I define north-atlantids = nordic-atlantid, simply because I think they, as you have said, have interbreed with the more fair types prevalent in the north.

As for my term iberian-atlantid I prefer it to paleo simply because I think the major component of the atlantid types along the atlantic coast of Europe are of iberian origin. Note that the iberian strain is not of small stature and has both robust and docile types. Being of iberian-atlantid type, it is a subject which interests me and I present here some people who I consider to be, either robust or docile, part of the the iberian type of atlantids.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/robbw.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/brosnan.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/connery.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/zeta.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/byrne.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/bono.jpg

I think the best example you gave is that north-atlantids (nordic-atlantids) have pinkish skin and fair eyes but still retain (at times) the "mediterranean" characteristics that remember their cro-magnid origin in Iberia and Northern Africa.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe-map3a.jpg

Could you post some images of North-Atlantids (nordic-atlantids) ? I'm thinking of making some kind of web-resource correlating information with pictures of the atlantid type.

Cheers ;)

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 03:11 PM
Just to clarify the terms I use, I define north-atlantids = nordic-atlantid, simply because I think they, as you have said, have interbreed with the more fair types prevalent in the north.

The type is predominantly Nordid. I don't think that we should make too many interpretations. It's a speculation to state what you claimed, even an anthropologist like Lundman (1977) implied that they may have. He mentioned two (likely) causes it being slightly different from the Scando-Nordids, either "a result of a less cold, but damper climate", and/or "contact with the more pigmented European races." It's wrong to say that the North-Atlantid is what it is because it "interbreed" with the fair types of the north. That is possible in some cases and it may yield the same physique, but not all. North-Atlantid is both a type in a population in Northwestern Europe and a type among individuals, in the sense that the phenotype can arise elsewhere in Europe if the right parental components are present in the same proportions.

" b. Nordid Race: virile, more progressive, lighter in pigmentation. Three subraces: the broader-faced, more robust Faelish (Faelo-Nordid) subrace, the narrower-faced, more slender Scando-Nordid subrace, and the North-A tiantid subrace which is morphologically similar to the Scando-Nordid. The first two subraces are rather light-haired, while the North-Atlantid subrace is more dark-haired but at the same time light-eyed. The North-Atlantid subrace also has a higher frequency of blood type gene r and a lower frequency of p than the other two subraces."

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races4.htm

In fact, out of Lundman's three main Nordid groups, Scando-Nordids, Faelish and North-Atlantids, the Faelish is described as the most divergent (although one could argue not in terms of hair blondism).

"The Nordid race has several subraces. The most divergent is the Faelish subrace in western Germany and also in the interior of southwestern Norway."

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races.htm

" So is the North-Atlantid subrace (the North-Occidental race of Deniker), which is like the primary type, but has much darker hair. Above all in the oceanic parts of Great Britain the North-Atlantid subrace is also very high in blood type gene r and low in blood type gene p."

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races.htm

"europeerna utmed Nordatlanten, som mest är mycket cendréhåriga med med gråa ögon." (I Storbrittanies olika delar rådde f ö ursprungligen en tydlig paralleism mellan hårfärgen på den inhemska boskapen och människorna: båda svart-
håriga i den fuktiga västern och brunhåriga i den torra och soligare sydöstra delen!)

Bertil Lundman, Jordens Folkstammar, CM-Tryck AB, Bromma, 1988.

My translation (Swedish-English):

The Europeans along the North Atlantic, that are mostly very cendré haired but with grey eyes. (There existed, besides, in the different parts of the British Isles a clear parallelism between the hair colour of the domestic livestock and the humans: both black-haired in the humid western and brown haired in the dry and sunnier southeastern part!")

That is for a larger population, but it also fit in the description of the North-Atlantid type.

I see that you found a picture where Pierce Brosnan look darker-haired than in reality.:) I think that he is the only North-Atlantid out of the examples that you have shown. Sean Connery retain more the robust form, and he is darker. Robbie Williams got a face too wide and low, and an aberrant nose.

Gil
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Yes, I agree that he has a lighter type (Brosnan) and fits into the nordic-atlantid type. Why do you say Williams has an aberrant nose?

http://www.mtv.com/shared/media/news/images/w/Williams_Robbie/sq-robbie-williams-sglasses-cm.jpg

http://www.japantoday.com/dbfiles/newsmaker/robbie.64.jpg

It is broad (specifically the nasal fossa) but then again that just may be an indication of his iberian-atlantid type (note that larger nasal fossa indicate a geographical evolution of the subsspecies so that it can resist in more dry region).

What about Collin Farrel?
http://ffmedia.ign.com/stax/multimedia/stax_report255.jpg
http://www.jaykevin.com/jkfarrell.gif

http://www.goldenbeaus.com/c_farrell/colin_farrell_front.jpg

He would fit into the iberian type no doubt about it.

Another one:

http://www.alternativehollywood.de/bilder/gill5.jpg
http://www.alternativehollywood.de/bilder/gill7.jpg

Robbie Keane

Cheers

Ewergrin
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 05:19 PM
I think she is some Irish news reporter? I have seen her pic posted here before as well.

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Yes, I agree that he has a lighter type (Brosnan) and fits into the nordic-atlantid type. Why do you say Williams has an aberrant nose?

http://www.chez.com/lollypopangel/bob/bobimages/bobtt25.jpg

He has an aberrant nose for North-Atlantid. He fit in Palaeo-Atlantid. He's stocky too. He's on the other hand too light-eyed, light-skinned and light-haired (relatively) for a typical Palaeo-Atlantid. The North-Atlantid is more leptosomic, some are hyper-leptosome, which is also environmentally conditioned. The Northwestern European North-Atlantids have after all the most refined finely modelled faces of perhaps all Europids (together with some Göta and East-Nordids?).


iberian-atlantid

I may understand your usage of the term, but it's confusing. You should state a source where such a term is used, with a description, if not, Palaeo-Atlantid and North-Atlantid are suitable.


What about Collin Farrel?

Palaeo - not North-Atlantid.


Robbie Keane

Same as Collin Farrel, Palaeo-Atlantid.

It's unfortunate that they both end with Atlantid. A North-Atlantid has the face of Roger Moore often darker hair. http://www.roger-moore.com/gallery/young-roger/YoungRogerMoore/maverick_roger_JPG.html#young

What we often see as "Anglo-Saxon" is something else. The beaky noses, higher vault and large ears have obviously another origin. Lundman wrote on the English aristocrat: "predominantly Nordic, but still somewhat North-Atlantid or even Litoral mixed, in race". That is what I see among some Dutch too, see below of a Gelderland man from one of Coon's plates in The Races of Europe.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe331a.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe331b.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe331c.jpg

As an example I see a person like Hugh Grant as North-Atlantid because I fail to see the Litoral, Borreby, and so forth traits. I think that Coon's system was confusing, and maybe also erroneous as more modern anthropologists like Biasutti and Lundman have claimed, although not only, but also in the sense of what he saw as more or less Nordid.

Gil
Saturday, November 20th, 2004, 07:50 PM
I've yet to see a complete resource on physical anthropology describing, with modern data (not Coon's and Deniker's data) the different subspecies of caucasoids. Do you have any knowledge of a good site (apart from the Nordish Society one) ?

I've been thinking of making a wiki-like resource on races, i'm just looking for the host and how to set it up.

Cheers

Rhydderch
Monday, November 22nd, 2004, 05:18 AM
I agree with Manji that the Mediterranean types in the British Isles are also present in Iberia. There are five such types I have observed which are common to both regions: the Muge type, the 'Classic Mediterranean', (commoner in England and Wales, rather infrequent in Scotland and Ireland) the very tall and slim Atlanto-med, the Litoroid (which some do not class as Mediterranean), and a type which is characterised by medium to tall stature, very curly hair, a hooked nose and prominent chin.
Apart from Iberia (where it is largely confined to the south) and the British isles, this last type is also common among North Africans; I believe it may be the Saharid (South-Mediterranid) race.

There are however, at least two other Iberian types which are not found in the British Isles.


Volksdeutscher, did you see my latest post? I had a couple of questions.

White Falcon
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 02:58 AM
What about Ron Livingston? Could he fit in ?



http://dolshouse.com/queensmen/image/ronLivings_Grani_1707141_400.jpghttp://www.chilax.com/markeee/photos/ronny1.jpg

http://www.carriesdiary.com/imgs/jackpic.jpg

Vojvoda
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 03:36 AM
Palaeo/Cro-Magnid

cruhmann
Saturday, December 11th, 2004, 04:52 PM
"Certainly, the most archaic morphological type of the Mediterranean subrace is that known as Upper Palaeolithic, sometimes also called Galley Hill or Combe Capelle (or, by Coon, the “Bruenn race”) from type fossil finds in Europe, and also frequently referred to as Atlanto-Mediterranean (Deniker). This exceptionally long-headed type is notable for the great size of the brain-case and its rugged bony construction. The face is commonly long and massive, but it may be rather short, perhaps oftenest when bodily stature is below medium. The jaws are nearly always deep and heavy. It seems improbable that this type, when identified in Wales, Cornwall, and Ireland, or elsewhere, represents the pure lineal descendants of Upper Palaeolithic men. It is more likely to be due to recombination of genetic factors from old strains. It is hard to believe that anywhere in Europe there are inbred, unmixed survivors of Palaeolithic colonies. This type, which is easy to recognize, but does not easily lend itself to selection by any mechanical sorting process, is fairly common in Iran and Iraq an probably elsewhere in the Middle East. In Ireland, England, and the United States, a very closely similar type, that differs only in that eyes are mixed instead of dark, is sorted out as the residual Nordic-Mediterranean type, on the assumption that the lightening of eye pigmentation is due to admixture with the blond Nordic stock. This may or may not be the correct interpretation. There are virtually no pure dark eyes (medium brown, dark brown, or black) in Ireland, and hence, by sorting criteria, practically no pure Mediterraneans. However, the type, complete with dark eyes and dark hair, seems a little commoner in Britain and the United States."

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/



Palaeo-Atlantid, Tydal, and the reduced and darked Berid, are all phenotypically similar rest races in Western Europe, and like North-Atlantid they are also defined in their specific ways.

There is no such thing as purity, it's in the minds of people when they compare to a defined type on paper. Not all people in a more or less genetically homogenous and isolated population will reach the average defined morphological-typological form for the geographically limited folk stock.
Although I tend to agree with much, certainly not all, of Coon's writings, I think that the designation "Bruenn" is not the best designation for the race that so designates, and is really quite confusing. I don't see any relation between Atlanto-Med and Bruenn, other than the fact that in a few places they appear to be mixed with each other. As for Galley Hill and Combe Capelle, they were both short-statured and not very massive in body, face and head dimensions. See pages 31-37 of Coon's Races of Europe" Predmost#3 seems to be closer to modern-day "Bruenn" than any of these.
I also think that Irish and Scandinavian Bruenns have a different origin, although they may have some common ancestry. At any rate, I think Coon could have come up with a better name than Bruenn.
As for Paleo-Atlantid, I think in the mind of the one who invented this term he may have had a very specific type in mind, but depending on where they are and who is doing the classifying, they seem to include all kinds of crosses between various Meditteranean and/or pre-Meditteranean (Cro-Magnon, Berid, etc.) brunette types with each other and perhaps with other non-brunette types - Bruenn or whatever. It is strange to me that it is said to have both dark hair and dark eyes, and yet it is important in Ireland, a country that doesn't have much dark eyes.
As for North-Atlantid, it is either Atlanto-Meditteranean, Altlanto-Med + Keltic Nordic, or both, again depending on whose classification you use. Some call the Atlanto-Med Type West-Atlantic and the Atlanto-Med/Keltic mixed types North-Atlantic, which is less confusing.

Rhydderch
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 05:09 AM
I don't see any relation between Atlanto-Med and Bruenn, other than the fact that in a few places they appear to be mixed with each other.
That's a good point. I think the idea of Atlanto-meds coming from Brunns is quite strange.


I also think that Irish and Scandinavian Bruenns have a different origin, although they may have some common ancestry.
I think Coon is correct in this respect. At any rate, I had often noticed that many brown-haired, ruddy and large-bodied Scandinavians looked quite Irish or British. It puzzled me and I thought perhaps it was due to the fact that slaves from the British Isles were brought by the Vikings into Scandinavia. I thought it must have been done on a very large scale.
But I now think 'Brunn' survival explains it perfectly.


At any rate, I think Coon could have come up with a better name than Bruenn.
Yes, I think Cro-magnon is a better name. The remains found at Brunn had (if I remember rightly) a bit of a Neanderthal tendency; But I find that modern 'Brunns' very much resemble the Cro-magnon skulls.

Glenlivet
Friday, October 7th, 2005, 01:37 PM
James Denton

His traits are very similar to Pierce Brosnan's. The shape of his eyes is typical.

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20050329/wredc0329/0329denton.jpghttp://tv.zap2it.com/photos/index/0,1237,zp_fromThumb|94559|103175,00.html http://webpages.charter.net/obliquity/JamesDenton.jpghttp://albums.mouseplanet.com/DCAGoldenStateProcessed/119_091104.jpg

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/53456397.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D050201094214317F8857160B5AFFF 752E0CCB52F80594D2604A015CF9DF (good profile)

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/55715543.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421A18EB4DA8EAD09702C 22CC00C66EDE8094D2604A015CF9DF

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/55715534.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421A18EB4DA8EAD09707B E176A359B7213E94D2604A015CF9DF

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/55717443.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421A18EB4DA8EAD0970D5 67C9D5330A2ECC94D2604A015CF9DF

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/53456385.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D050201094214317F8857160B5AF7E FF5AE563F57F6594D2604A015CF9DF

Edwin
Friday, October 7th, 2005, 08:28 PM
I see some submerged Falian or Anglo-Saxon, and in Pierce Brosnan some submerged Brunn. Most North Atlantids seem more gracile and fully Capelloid.