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Scoob
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Here is a comparison of Cromagnon and Neanderthal skulls with flesh painted on with blond coloration.

Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

The Neanderthal does not resembles modern Northern Europeans IMO, although it does remind me somewhat of a caricature form of Vincent Pastore ("Pussy" from The Sopranos).

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

I agree with you, that Cro-Magnon represents a proto-Nordic type. Most Upper Paleolithic Europeans do have a craniometric similarity to Nordics.

Frans_Jozef
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Here is a comparison of Cromagnon and Neanderthal skulls with flesh painted on with blond coloration.

Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

The Neanderthal does not resembles modern Northern Europeans IMO, although it does remind me somewhat of a caricature form of Vincent Pastore ("Pussy" from The Sopranos).

Wrong, Neanderthals show a diversity matched by the present-day European population: some would be classified as Alpinoids, others Nordoid or Dinaroid.
The mesocephaly of NW Europeans, typical by a long anterior-posterior length and relative broadness in lateral sense, is at least metrically overlapping the figures for Neanderthals.

Scoob
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Wrong, Neanderthals show a diversity matched by the present-day European population: some would be classified as Alpinoids, others Nordoid or Dinaroid.
The mesocephaly of NW Europeans, typical by a long anterior-posterior length and relative broadness in lateral sense, is at least metrically overlapping the figures for Neanderthals. Can you list some Neanderthal fossils with these affinities to modern subracial types?

I've attached some modern Northern Europeans who IMO exemplify the Cromagnon type: Conan O'Brien (Irish-American), Claudia Schiffer (northern German from Nordrhein-Westfalen), and Fyodor Dostoyevsky (Russian). I think this is the distinctive "Nordic" prototype, and not the Halstatt-like type physical anthropologists misleadingly label "Nordic."

Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.

Note that around 22kya another Y lineage appears in Europe, the I lineages, apparently from the Middle East, and now found mainly in Central Europe. I suspect these Middle Eastern people eventually mixed with Cromagnon Aurignacian types to produce the modern Alpine types. In any case, this migration was likely to have introduced a more gracile "Mediterranean" (not so cold-adapted) type to Central Europe.

I think Near Eastern lineages J and etc spread after the Ice Age with the introduction of the Neolithic to Europe, and this is when the long-faced gracile phenotypes became widespread there.

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:48 PM
We have discussed this in another thread, but if not Nordid, what is the "Hallstatt type"?



I think this is the distinctive "Nordic" prototype, and not the Halstatt-like type physical anthropologists misleadingly label "Nordic."

Scoob
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 11:59 PM
We have discussed this in another thread, but if not Nordid, what is the "Hallstatt type"? I'm not sure what the archaelogical evidence suggests, but probably some post-Neolithic invaders from the general Middle East or Central Asia mixing with native North Europeans produced the Hallstatt type.

The one multiallelic map I've seen of Europe (Ancestry by DNA) suggests some mixture in Scandinavia with Iranian/Middle Eastern affinities in a largely "Nordic" (I'd say Cromagnid) population.

Also, I was rereading some Y Chromosome and cranial morphology articles. Brace et al ("Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: a comparative craniofacial view") found affinity in UP populations throughout Western Europe stretching to Northeast Asia and parts of the Americas - basically a pre-Neolithic Northern Eurasian population that was later modified in the West by Near Eastern agriculturalists and in the East by Chinese agriculturalists. Native Americans are largely descended from this northern Eurasian group, with varying levels of Chinese-like admixture.

I've attached some more photos with this post of individuals showing Cromagnon-like morphology. Interestingly, when I lined by the sculpted Cromagnon reconstruction with modern photos, the ones it closely matched were the Amerinds attached with this post. Modern Europeans were more different. Also, Kennewick Man and Spirit Cave man both look different, and make me wonder whether Neanderthal admixture did take place with such types.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:24 AM
that cro-magnoid reconstruction looks a lot mongoloid...not nordic.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:38 AM
the basques are the most "cro-magnon" people in EUROPE.
I do not think russians are cro-magnons, ok a distant relative...but not cro-magnoids! (only a few minority)

The Irish are another group that are closer to the cro-magnoids.

btw if you classify most britans as nordics (with russians), then you obviously do attribute race affinities only based on skin colour.
that is a big nonsense!

with time most human population living in northern latitudes will get "whiter".
:)

the blue colour on the eyes is less brown melanine on the eyes, the blue effect is due to refraction I believe (like the bird feathers), it's not a colour produced in the eyes!

I may be wrong, but I suppose there must be several different genes producing different blue eyes, with no relation whatsoever.

there are even distincr genetic "divergence" between the dans and the other scandinavians (swedes and norwegens)
you could put all of them in the nordic branch...but I guess it's not right!

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:42 AM
Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.

(more than 70% of the iberians are R1a and R1b)

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:25 AM
Also, I was rereading some Y Chromosome and cranial morphology articles. Brace et al ("Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: a comparative craniofacial view") found affinity in UP populations throughout Western Europe stretching to Northeast Asia and parts of the Americas - basically a pre-Neolithic Northern Eurasian population that was later modified in the West by Near Eastern agriculturalists and in the East by Chinese agriculturalists. Native Americans are largely descended from this northern Eurasian group, with varying levels of Chinese-like admixture.

Though youre correct that Brace et al implied that the origin of mongoloids was associated with the Chinese Neolithic but they didn't imply that modern West Eurasians are descended from West Asians in the same way, although he suggested that southern Caucasoid popultions were assimilated into the Caucasoid major race in this way. Their evidence seems to me to agree fairly well with the idea of Poulianos, that Caucasoids emerged by admixture between Upper Paleolithic types from the Pyrenees to the steppe.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:36 AM
One difference between the Cro-Magnon type and Nordics is facial length. Nordic tend to have long, oviod faces with some distance between the teeth and the chin. Another difference is the flatter, more sloping forehead in Nordics. It is hard to see gerontomophic characteristics coming as a result of the fetalization of Cro-Magnon. But, the skull is thinner, higher, and shorter in Nordics which are signs of fetalization. What is needed is some other influence to explain how this happened. Coon says Med. mixture. Genetics says no. Now there is an idea that these characteristics ( chin length, sloping forehead) are the result of mixture with the northern forest types (Ladogan). This fits better with the genetic evidence and also accounts for blond hair as its center is in the East Baltic region.

I think the Cro-Magnon reconstruction is pretty good. I do agree with Frans that Neanderthals actually had more variability than maybe we see at first look, but, they were very homogenious given their long time span, 200,000 years or so. Morant found UP remains, in total, to be less variable than a 17th century London graveyard, so they were pretty consistant as a whole, also.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:42 AM
I think the Cro-Magnon reconstruction is pretty good. I do agree with Frans that Neanderthals actually had more variability than maybe we see at first look, but, they were very homogenious given their long time span, 200,000 years or so. Morant found UP remains, in total, to be less variable than a 17th century London graveyard, so they were pretty consistant as a whole, also.

Actually recent studies confirm that many Upper Paleolithic Europeans aren't always the closest to modern Europeans.

Scoob
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 09:02 AM
Though youre correct that Brace et al implied that the origin of mongoloids was associated with the Chinese Neolithic but they didn't imply that modern West Eurasians are descended from West Asians in the same way, although he suggested that southern Caucasoid popultions were assimilated into the Caucasoid major race in this way. Their evidence seems to me to agree fairly well with the idea of Poulianos, that Caucasoids emerged by admixture between Upper Paleolithic types from the Pyrenees to the steppe. I agree with the last sentence above. What I gathered from Brace et al is that there was a broad stretch from British Isles to Moscow of Cromagnoids that later became assimilated to surrounding populations in various ways. It might have also facilitated some limited gene flow from NE Asia (which wasn't distinctly Mongoloid at the time, anyway) to West Eurasia also.

Wells et al suggest in "The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity" that Central Asia has served as a source for modern populations throughout Europe and Asia on the basis that the oldest lineages with the most diversity are found there. E.g., both R1a and R1b are derived from Q* lineages, which are found in Central Asia but not Europe.

It's also important to note that the presence of Y Chromosome lineages is not fully descriptive of the genetic composition of a population. For example, Irish have almost exclusively R1b Y lineages, but quite varied mtDNA and presumably autosomal DNA. However, I do think Cromagnids are largely responsible for R1a and R1b lineages in West Eurasia, and that abundant Cromanid heritage (with Middle Eastern Neolithic admixture) distinguishes Northern Europeans as a group from other humans.

As for Basques, the idea that they are representative Cromagnons is more political than scientific. They have quite a bit of genetic material from post-Neolithic colonization of Western Europe, to a point where they do not even generally resemble Cromagnon fossils.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 10:15 AM
I agree with the last sentence above. What I gathered from Brace et al is that there was a broad stretch from British Isles to Moscow of Cromagnoids that later became assimilated to surrounding populations in various ways. It might have also facilitated some limited gene flow from NE Asia (which wasn't distinctly Mongoloid at the time, anyway) to West Eurasia also.

Based on the craniometry and the Western Eurasian dental pattern, the genetic influence continued to be more from the west to the east.


As for Basques, the idea that they are representative Cromagnons is more political than scientific. They have quite a bit of genetic material from post-Neolithic colonization of Western Europe, to a point where they do not even generally resemble Cromagnon fossils.

Yes, Poulianos agrees that theyre close to Iberians in many ways however, I remember that he also described physical affinities to Upper Paleolithic Europeans within this otherwise Mediterranean and Alpine population.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:04 PM
every population in europe has diversity in th X-chomossome
allmoust identical thoughout europe from portugal to russia.

you can see that on my attachments.

but if you watch closely the Y-chromossome, it's obvious that the brits are more identical to those in the south (iberians) than to those in russia.
sorry for that... but you are indeed western mediterranean.

Of course there are more scandinavian blood in the east of the great britain, that is also obvious, but the west is still ancient (just like the basques "brothers").

That cromagnoid fossil is only 1...extrapolating from that the aspect of all cromagnoids is kind of stupid...

The iberians also have long faces, my face (4 cms from chin to the base of the lower teeths).

It's also obvious the connection between south/north not between east/west.

the greeks are substancialy different from the iberians, with the italians in between.
but the irish are allmoust identical to the basques!

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:15 PM
even the dannish people are something between (genetically) sweden and the basque country.
:)

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:18 PM
As for Basques, the idea that they are representative Cromagnons is more political than scientific. They have quite a bit of genetic material from post-Neolithic colonization of Western Europe, to a point where they do not even generally resemble Cromagnon fossils.

sorry I do not agree!
if there are non "poluted" population in europe that is the BASQUES (I am not basque mind you), they have no neolithic genes (maybe a little...but this doesn't show up on the maps)!

unlike the portuguese and the spanish brothers (I am portuguese).

If basques skulls aren't close to the ancient fossils that doesn't mean anything...

a.there are not many fossils cro-magnon around
b.even if they don't look alike that doesn't mean they are not related.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM
If basques skulls aren't close to the ancient fossils that doesn't mean nothing...

Poulianos does believe there is evidence supporting a descent of Basques from Upper Paleolithic Europeans, however he also supported the idea that they had largely been assimilated by Mediterraneans from Iberia and mostly similar to Iberians.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:51 PM
phenotype is only that...
phenotype!

usually it can change drastically...
sexual preferences, cultural, climate, etc...

(even the cromagnon after some time might start looking like the "agricultural" brothers...if that is beneficial in some way)

you can give that importance to the phenotype, but inside there are genes that don't like to change, and are not possible to choose from (sexually that is)

that is why (there are stll more reasons...) genetic studies are indeed more valid to discover afinities!

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Poulianos does believe there is evidence supporting a descent of Basques from Upper Paleolithic Europeans, however he also supported the idea that they had largely been assimilated by Mediterraneans from Iberia and mostly similar to Iberians.

who is that poulianos?

I still don't get that mediterranean definition!
Why?

because genetic studies says that iberians are close (even non basques) to the northern guys in the british isles...
so if I am mediterranean what are the greeks?
substancially different from the iberians!

again you use too much of that phenotype (maybe even poulianos), to guess affinities.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 03:51 PM
phenotype is only that...
phenotype!

usually it can change drastically...
sexual preferences, cultural, climate, etc...

This is usually for reasons which can be detected and taken into account, because the reasons for such variations are understood by physical anthropologists. The idea that craniometric variability is irrelevent to population studies, is just Boasianism.

And the phenotype is more useful than the parental lineages which get lost over time, and only provide evidence for some migrations which influenced a population (and the same can be said for the frequency of physical types in a mixed population). This is their main practical use because evidence for genetic contributions are lost over lengths of time, although overall genetic distance is more useful for studying population affinities. This is the genetic measure of how close populations are to one another.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:05 PM
This is usually for reasons which can be detected and taken into account, because the reasons for such variations are understood by physical anthropologists. The idea that craniometric variability is irrelevent to population studies, is just Boasianism.

And the phenotype is more useful than the parental lineages which get lost over time, and only provide evidence for some migrations which influenced a population (and the same can be said for the frequency of physical types in a mixed population). This is their main practical use because evidence for genetic contributions are lost over lengths of time, although overall genetic distance is more useful for studying population affinities. This is the genetic measure of how close populations are to one another.

If the parental lineages got easily lost over time, then more reason to connect the britts with Iberians...
they didn't lost that genetic connection yet.
;)

My brain/cranium is a lot bigger than my father, I have something like 1700 cm3 ,my father only have something like 1350-1400.
Is he my father?
you bet (in this case the phenotype doesn't lie)!

Why I have a bigger head?
I have more 15 cms...
btw my mom is also small maybe 25 cms less than me (but with a big brachycephalic head a little smaller than mine, my father is like me, dolicochephalic).

so different head shapes...and I come from them
:)

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM
who is that poulianos?

Aris Poulianos is a Greek physical anthropologist who discovered an archaic Homo at Petralona, and studied the racial types of Greece. His research into physical anthropology included the search for the origin of Caucasoids which he located from the Pyrenees to the steppe, and he claimed that populatoins in the Pyrenees and Epirus were especially close to the ancestral Caucasoids. This suggestion does fit with the idea suggesting that European haplogroups I, R1a and R1b moving north after the end of the most recent glaciation nand mixed with each other from east to west.


I still don't get that mediterranean definition!
Why?

It means a subtropical, gracilised Caucasoid type and there mignt have been two centres of origin, and one was in Iberia but the other was from a Capellid-like type. However, there is a lot of overlap between these and there shouldnt be considered to be just two Mediterranean types.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:35 PM
It means a subtropical, gracilised Caucasoid type and there mignt have been two centres of origin, and one was in Iberia but the other was from a Capellid-like type. However, there is a lot of overlap between these and there shouldnt be considered to be just two Mediterranean types.

then most europeans are mediterraneans...and all the R1b britains are meds not nordic (the majority).
because again I must say that iberians have more than 70% of R1b like the brits.

a lot of overlap?
maybe only in italy...

that gracilised caucasoid is only the outside appearance, we know that UV stress/lack can promote darker/lighter pigmentation.
And of course sexual preferences over the ages can promote that gracilised look...

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:36 PM
If the parental lineages got easily lost over time, then more reason to connect the britts with Iberians...
they didn't lost that genetic connection yet.
;)

This is the result of the migrations by Mesolithics of Iberian origin, to the north along the Atlantic coast of Europe where they mixed with Upper Paleolithic Europeans.


My brain/cranium is a lot bigger than my father, I have something like 1700 cm3 ,my father only have something like 1350-1400.
Is he my father?
you bet (in this case the phenotype doesn't lie)!

Why I have a bigger head?
I have more 15 cms...
btw my mom is also small maybe 25 cms less than me (but with a big brachycephalic head a little smaller than mine, my father is like me, dolicochephalic).

so different head shapes...and I come from them
:)

Thats a matter of heridity between generations where people with different types have mixed, but knowing the presence or absence of different types in a population is useful. In this case, for example, we know theres a brachycranial element alongside a dolichocephalic element from different sources.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:52 PM
then most europeans are mediterraneans...and all the R1b britains are meds not nordic (the majority).
because again I must say that iberians have more than 70% of R1b like the brits.

The North Atlantic populations are a mix of Upper Paleolithic Brunnid and Berid types with Nordics and western Mediterraneans, and locally theres admixture from a West Asian element as well. The native Mediterranean type here is the Atlanto-Mediterranean, with Nordic as well as Mediterranean affinities.


a lot of overlap?
maybe only in italy...

Even in the Mesolithic of Brittany, there was an eastern type with similarities to the West Asian Natufids so there was already some continuity between the west and the east by then. And if you agree with Lundman's category of Syrid as an Orientalid type which he thought was associated with the origins of Litorids (dinaricised mediterraneans), then the eastern Mediterraneans were important in the European Neolithic.


that gracilised caucasoid is only the outside appearance, we know that UV stress/lack can promote darker/lighter pigmentation.
And of course sexual preferences over the ages...

Skin colour isnt about skeletal gracilisation since the Upper Paleolithic.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 04:54 PM
This is the result of the migrations by Mesolithics of Iberian origin, to the north along the Atlantic coast of Europe where they mixed with Upper Paleolithic Europeans.

I do not agree, after the ice age there was no one living in britain...
the ice age was +/-12000 years ago.

most britains are descendent from some guys (from iberia), that arrived just after the ice age (before the sea started filling the channel).

I do not think there was capable people able to survive the glaciar climate, even in the Iberia it was dificult...but at least possible.
the upper paleolithic britains died, or they retreate into Iberia or into other refugee.

I can think of iberia like the melting pot of the ice age europe!

In the Ice age there was 3 pockets of resistance/refugees in europe...

one in iberia, another in the balcans (or even greece), and another bellow ucrania.

this were the ones that populated most europe (again) before the neolithic invasion from the middle east (that shaped the greeks and other eastern mediterraneans...but that was after.)

that is why I feal the genetic division is more pronounced between east and west than north south.
And I can get genetic studies to prove this!

Scoob
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Based on the craniometry and the Western Eurasian dental pattern, the genetic influence continued to be more from the west to the east. Right, but only after an initial Q* (R1b) settlement of the far west from Central Asia around 40-30 KYA. This group then expanded East all the way to Russia, spawning a group that later became R1a during the LGM (while this continuum existed, there might have been some gene flow throughout the Cromag area). This Western Cromag group was then apparently isolated in an Iberian refuge during the Last Glacial maximum. During the LGM, Western Europe was vacated, and then repopulated both from Western and Eastern groups without much overlap in the far West or East. These populations were then later modified with Neolithic and then Bronze age invaders from further East.


Yes, Poulianos agrees that theyre [Basques] close to Iberians in many ways however, I remember that he also described physical affinities to Upper Paleolithic Europeans within this otherwise Mediterranean and Alpine population. Did Western Cromags become more narrow-faced at some point, or did this occur with Neolithic invasions?

While Basques have mostly UP Y-Chromosomes, their autosomal inheritance has more recent mixture. I agree that British (the dark types especially) resemble Iberians. But "classic" Irish with broad faced, jawbones, etc are the types I consider more Cromag, while others are from invasions. The question is, how much do long-faced Brits and Iberians resemble square-faced UP? I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously.

Atlanto-med is right that parental lineages are often lost over time due to genetic drift, especially within small popultaions (why the far West of Europe is so exclusively R1b, e.g. - they might have been more varied before the LGM). But collecting data on lots of markers can be instructive. Y and mtDNA markers can be good evidence if they both agree, also. Y is also excellent for indicating some very specific phylogeny, but not broad population history (as the misleading Y types of the Basque show).

Regarding Mediterraneans, since this region has been more continuously inhabited than the North (which is more uniform), and subject to less stringent environmental selection regimes, it is probably much more diverse in all ways. There is quite a bit of variety of Greek types, Arab types, Turkish types, etc compared to the variety of native Scandinavian or Scottish types.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:14 PM
there are more genes that really adds up to my conclusions...
look at my attachments.

this are blood groups distributions...
see the similarities!

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 05:21 PM
I do not agree, after the ice age there was no one living in britain...
the ice age was +/-12000 years ago.

To say there was nobody at all living north of the Pyrenees is probably an exaggeration (because moderns elsewhere, had already adapted to harsh conditions) and besides, Magdalenians survived south of the Pyrenees which is why theres an Atlanto-Mediterranean element in Iberia. The Proto-Nordics would have migrated to their west because of the climate change as well, at the same time as the migrations to the north.


most britains are descendent from some guys (from iberia), that arrived just after the ice age (before the sea started filling the channel).

That a haplogroup is dominant proves that a migration from Iberia left descendants, but it doesn't prove that the British are mostly derived from that that source, and you cant actually identify racial types by these lineages.


In the Ice age there was 3 pockets of resistance/refugees in europe...

one in iberia, another in the balcans (or even greece), and another bellow ucrania.

this were the ones that populated most europe (again) before the neolithic invasion from the middle east (that shaped the greeks and other eastern mediterraneans...but that was after.)

that is why I feal the genetic division is more pronounced between east and west than north south.
And I can get genetic studies to prove this!

But because the actual population affinities can only be measured by studying the overall genetic distances between populations, by just using lineages alone you wont prove that. They only identify the sources of migrations which left lineages as evidence.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 07:03 PM
To say there was nobody at all living north of the Pyrenees is probably an exaggeration (because moderns elsewhere, had already adapted to harsh conditions) and besides, Magdalenians survived south of the Pyrenees which is why theres an Atlanto-Mediterranean element in Iberia. The Proto-Nordics would have migrated to their west because of the climate change as well, at the same time as the migrations to the north.

nop...the condiitions were worse than you think...
:)
even worse than today alaskas or siberia...there was just no food around!

maybe there was some that survived in the southern france...

by the way iberia is just not tropical, the latitude of lisbon (southern portugal), is the same as new york.

the mediterranean climate is the reflex of the gulf current.
stop that and even new york would froze rock solid...just like Iberia, and even more in the northern regions of europe!

Mandible
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Cro-mag?

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Right, but only after an initial Q* (R1b) settlement of the far west from Central Asia around 40-30 KYA. This group then expanded East all the way to Russia, spawning a group that later became R1a during the LGM (while this continuum existed, there might have been some gene flow throughout the Cromag area). This Western Cromag group was then apparently isolated in an Iberian refuge during the Last Glacial maximum. During the LGM, Western Europe was vacated, and then repopulated both from Western and Eastern groups without much overlap in the far West or East. These populations were then later modified with Neolithic and then Bronze age invaders from further East.

Sorry, I think this is right, Scoob. I was refering to the presence of Western Eurasians as far east as Siberia because I was thinking about youre suggestion of genetic flow from north-east Asia to western Europe.


Did Western Cromags become more narrow-faced at some point, or did this occur with Neolithic invasions?

In my opinion, the modification was caused by the gracilising, Mediterranean element which arrived in the Mesolithic (or it could even have been indigenous). It happened before the Neolithic agriculturalists arrived.


While Basques have mostly UP Y-Chromosomes, their autosomal inheritance has more recent mixture. I agree that British (the dark types especially) resemble Iberians. But "classic" Irish with broad faced, jawbones, etc are the types I consider more Cromag, while others are from invasions. The question is, how much do long-faced Brits and Iberians resemble square-faced UP? I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously.

Well, craniometrically, many Upper Paleolithic Europeans show a population affinity with the Norse but I dont understand your statement of "I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously". Can you explain this a bit better?


Atlanto-med is right that parental lineages are often lost over time due to genetic drift, especially within small popultaions (why the far West of Europe is so exclusively R1b, e.g. - they might have been more varied before the LGM). But collecting data on lots of markers can be instructive. Y and mtDNA markers can be good evidence if they both agree, also. Y is also excellent for indicating some very specific phylogeny, but not broad population history (as the misleading Y types of the Basque show).

I agree with you but the paternal lineages dont often support each other, which is why theyre not the best type of evidence for population affinities.

Vitor is trying to use them to prove population affinities, not just to track the paths of migrations.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 07:10 PM
nop...the condiitions were worse than you think...
:)
even worse than today alaskas or siberia...there was just no food around!

maybe there was some that survived in the southern france...

I was referring more to the possibility of continued coastal occupation alomg the Atlantic coast of Europe, by populations of Magdalenian descent.

Vitor
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 08:18 PM
Southern france and iberia share the same culture/athnicity even 20 000 years ago...

this is the same people.
migrations are not like most think they were...it's just progressive espansion from a central point....not only 1 single point but many central points!

it's that complex!
nevertheless even 5000-6000 years ago there were obvious migration from iberia to the northern europe (there was allways a surplus of people in iberia since paleolithic)

the menire culture (like Stonhenge) genesis was in southern portugal/spain...and after some 1000 years it arrived in england in the form of the stonehenge (reaching even norway).

it's obvious that people travelled with that culture.

So migrations in europe were a constant flux not intermitent arrivals, and not only from a central point...britain also received a lot of people from the others refugees, but the majority were indeed from iberia.
even Iberia did received some other people from the others refugees

After that the east and south of britain received some scandinavian blood...the anglo-saxon race did not impact profoundly the british...but the scandinavians did!
the anglo-saxon is a myth...very few people arrived with them.

this is something very complex, it doesn't work with arrows in a map!

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 12:07 AM
In my opinion, the modification was caused by the gracilising, Mediterranean element which arrived in the Mesolithic (or it could even have been indigenous). It happened before the Neolithic agriculturalists arrived. Well, whether Mesolithic or Neolithic, it would be postglacial and involve gene flow from somewhere in the Middle East area. My understanding is that the Mesolithic was some kind of response (either by indigenous cultural reaction or immigration) to the Neolithic.


Well, craniometrically, many Upper Paleolithic Europeans show a population affinity with the Norse but I dont understand your statement of "I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously". Can you explain this a bit better? In other words, I think there is a stratum in Iberia that might be similar to Brunn Cromagnids, which has later mixed with mesolithic/neolithic immigrants from further East. Likewise, Britain has a UP/Cromagnid substratum that has since assimilated neolithic and also Bronze Age invaders. So the overall picture of modern Spain and Britain have much in common. The most continuous elements (with individuals that wouldn't seem out of place in either Britain or Spain) are those with an "Atlantid" morphology.


I agree with you but the paternal lineages dont often support each other, which is why theyre not the best type of evidence for population affinities. ... Vitor is trying to use them to prove population affinities, not just to track the paths of migrations. Right. Y chromosome data is far from comprehensive, although it can be very instructive. One cannot accurately or completely characterize populations based on their Y chromosomes alone.

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Cro-mag? IMO yes. And these types of features: the high cheekbones, wide jaw, square face, smaller eyes, are what Southern Europeans tend to focus on when distinguishing Northern European types from Mediterranean types.

So such elements are not absent in S. Europe, but they are not so predominant as they tend to be in the Northern areas.

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 01:40 AM
Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.

Don´t forget the mtDNA haplogroup X.Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene-speaking Navajo. European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other.Navajo´s language is related to basque , Chinese and Caucasian languages (except for Georgian)-The Dene-Caucasian group.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 01:49 AM
my oppinion of southern cro-magnon...
:)
both portuguese!

cro-magnon has nothing to do with northern folks...but with both southerns and northern europeans

I put mourinho (chelsea trainer), to illustrate some possible neolithic(or italian roman) admixture.
:)

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:23 AM
The iberians also have long faces, my face (4 cms from chin to the base of the lower teeths).




Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:29 AM
the ancient picture is from a very known XIX century portuguese caricaturist ...here is his work.

The way he saw the common portuguese (a little like him I guess!
cromagnon...
don't you agree?

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:53 AM
Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.

many...!
just like the anglo-saxon bullshit!
Are you telling that we still follow mohamed?
:)

Of course some of us do descend from those neolithics.
I guess not even 20%

there are regions in Iberia that didn't even had muslims...
like northern portugal or northern spain

and ...they look just like those in the south.
genetics also testify the similarites.
the moors in the middle ages didn't contribute to even 3% of all the "new" blood, the contribution has to be older!
because the northern iberians also have that blood in similar ratios .

what happened in the middle ages was similar to what happened when the visigoths invaded iberia, they were received by open arms (they were displacing the corrupted roman rule in the case of visigoths, and the corrupted "visigoth" rule in case of the moors).

but, that didn't displaced the previous population, romans didn't, nor the visigoths or the moors!
This invasions were only some "elite" rulling (imposing a culture) on the rest of the 99% of the population

It's just like the anglo saxon crap, british aren't anglo nor saxons...period!
the same hapenned there.
again the genes testifies that!

for instance...
the A group is the most common in portugal, the B group i(neolithic) is allmoust non existent.

look at the ratio of that B blood group in northern africa or middle east...
it's HIGH!
this doesn't make sense!
we could have some blood infusion from the neolithic era, but it's even less than most northern countries.

You could agree or not...
but that is the case...

for instance germans have a lot more neolithic blood than iberians, that is a fact...

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:54 AM
the menire culture (like Stonhenge) genesis was in southern portugal/spain...and after some 1000 years it arrived in england in the form of the stonehenge (reaching even norway).

it's obvious that people travelled with that culture.




This calcolithic demic difusion was not proved.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:20 AM
yes...it's a theory!

some scientist says that the older "constructions" are from iberia.
Allthough it's dificult to date non organic matter!

Rhydderch
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:59 AM
phenotype is only that...
phenotype!

usually it can change drastically...
sexual preferences, cultural, climate, etc...

(even the cromagnon after some time might start looking like the "agricultural" brothers...if that is beneficial in some way)It's true that "natural selection" can, to a certain extent, change a population over a period of time, but a homogeneous population cannot be radically altered without new genetic input. The genetic mutation rate is not high enough to account for these 'new' genes necessary for drastic changes in phenotype over the generations. Besides this, most mutations are a disadvantage to their carriers, and tend to be eliminated from populations.

So then, for instance, the idea that some Cro-magnons evolved into Nordics, Atlanto-Meds etc. is (to me at least) clearly erroneous.
The fact that only some modern Europeans are similar to Cro-magnons must therefore be because the majority of Europeans' ancestors came from elsewhere, or alternatively, these ancestors' bones have not yet been discovered, maybe never will be.

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:59 AM
many...!
just like the anglo-saxon bullshit!
Are you telling that we still follow mohamed?
:)

Of course some of us do descend from those neolithics.
I guess not even 20%

there are regions in Iberia that didn't even had muslims...
like northern portugal or northern spain

and ...they look just like those in the south.
genetics also testify the similarites.
the moors in the middle ages didn't contribute to even 3% of all the "new" blood, the contribution has to be older!
because the northern iberians also have that blood in similar ratios .

what happened in the middle ages was similar to what happened when the visigoths invaded iberia, they were received by open arms (they were displacing the corrupted roman rule in the case of visigoths, and the corrupted "visigoth" rule in case of the moors).

but, that didn't displaced the previous population, romans didn't, nor the visigoths or the moors!
This invasions were only some "elite" rulling (imposing a culture) on the rest of the 99% of the population

It's just like the anglo saxon crap, british aren't anglo nor saxons...period!
the same hapenned there.
again the genes testifies that!

for instance...
the A group is the most common in portugal, the B group i(neolithic) is allmoust non existent.

look at the ratio of that B blood group in northern africa or middle east...
it's HIGH!
this doesn't make sense!
we could have some blood infusion from the neolithic era, but it's even less than most northern countries.

You could agree or not...
but that is the case...

for instance germans have a lot more neolithic blood than iberians, that is a fact...



''Sharing the features of mtDNA diversity generally registered in Europeans (all European haplogroups were detected), Portugal has in addition received significant North and sub-Saharan African influences. Frequencies of haplogroups specific to these regions were higher than those reported for other European populations: 7% of North African sequences were detected (restricted to North Portugal and representing almost 3%of the total sample), and sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%. Although statistically significant differences were not detected between the three sub-samples considered, the geographic distribution pattern observed for U6 and L sequences strongly suggest that different population movements were responsible for their introduction into the country, although none of them had enough demographic impact to induce regional differentiation.''



PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A. (2000)
Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation.
Annals of Human Genetics 64 (6), 491-506


-----------------------------------------------------------------

''An important gene flow from Africa was detected in the Atlantic Iberia. Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal, and could be attributed to historic Black slave trade in the area and to a probable Saharan Neolithic influence. In fact, U6 haplotypes of specific North African origin have only been detected in the Iberian peninsula northwards from central Portugal''

Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es


----------------------------------------------------------------------

''the distribution YAP(1)/DYS271(A) chromosomes was recently demonstrated to be strongly clinal in Portugal, with the highest frequencies in the south, and interpreted as a reflection the Moorish invasions from North Africa in the Middle Ages ''

Human Y-Chromosome variation in the Western Mediterranean area: implications for the peopling of the region.

by R Scozzari, F Cruciani, A Pangracio, P Santolamazza, G Vona, P Moral, V Latini, L Varesi, M Memmi, V Romano, G De Leo, M Gennarelli, J Jaruzellska, R Villems, J Parik, V Macaulay, A Torroni.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:15 AM
PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A.

this guys want to be blacks at all costs!
:)

I can also find tests that say that the dutch are part blacks...
tomorrow I will post some of those crappy works.

Most of the time this are really northern african or middle east genes, that are confused by sub-saharan genes by those who want africa everywhere!

please see this MTDNA map of the world bellow...
and make your decision

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:19 AM
conflicting work...
who is right?



"Relatedness among Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians studied by HLA allelic frequencies and haplotypes
Abstract:

Abstract HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, -DQA1, and DQB1 alleles were studied in Iberian and Algerian populations by serology and DNA sequence methodologies. The genetic and cultural relatedness among Basques, Spaniards, and paleo-North Africans (Berbers or Tamazights) was established.

Portuguese people have also maintained a certain degree of cultural and ethnic-specific characteristics since ancient times. The results of the present HLA study in Portuguese populations show that they have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid: a high frequency of the HLA-haplotypes A29-B44-DR7 (ancient western Europeans), A2-B7-DR15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A1-B8-DR3 (Europeans) are found as common characteristics. Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans;

Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.

The Portuguese have a characteristic unique among world populations: a high frequency of HLA-A25-B18-DR15 and A26-B38-DR13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese, i.e., oestrimnios and conios;

Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A11-B27-DR1 and A2-B35-DR11, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture. A neighbor-joining dendrogram place Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians closer to each other and more separated from other populations. Genetic, cultural, geological, and linguistic evidence also supports the hypothesis that people coming from a fertile Saharan area emigrated towards the north (southern Europe, Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean Islands, and the North African coast) when the climate changed drastically to hotter and drier ca 10 000 years B.C.

A. Arnaiz-Villena A1, Jorge Martínez-Laso A1, Eduardo Gómez-Casado A1, Nieves Díaz-Campos A1, Paulo Santos A2, Antonio Martinho A2, Henriqueta Breda-Coimbra A2
A1 Department of Immunology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Avda. Andalucía s/n. E-28041, Madrid, SpainA2 Centro de Histocompatibilidade do Centro, Lusotransplante, Coimbra, Portugal"

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:25 AM
The topic of this thread is Cromagnons, not modern Iberians. None of the faces Vitor posted resemble the Cromagnon skull.

Iberians (and British) populations, like all European populations, have significant post-glacial input from the Near East. Iberians have significant gene flow from North Africa. So do darker Brits, I suspect.

A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. I think the test's "Nordic" component corresponds with similarity/continuity with pre-Neolithic Cromagnid populations - and suspect it might also correspond in individuals with Cromagnid ("UP") morphology.

Note that the strongest "Nordic" (Cromagnid) populations on the map are the Northern European and Irish - both of whom are noted for their typically square jaws, body bony faces and bodies, and light coloration.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:27 AM
Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans;

Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.

hum...interesting !

I believe there might be some blood from the sahara when this was in the process of desertification, this might had forced the locals to migrate north and south. reaching sub-saharan population and propagating and reaching Iberia (in low numbers).

This african gene reached the northern europe with the iberian migrations, of course there is more of that gene in the south, but still there are some in scandinavia.

that I believe!

of course this last study showed less middle age portuguese connection with the moors, so those connection have to be older...much older!

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:30 AM
many...!
just like the anglo-saxon bullshit!
Are you telling that we still follow mohamed?
:).

Of course no. Modern Portuguese are a mix of UPs, Neolithics, Germanic invaders,Phoenicians, Black Africans, Moors, etc, all of them assimilated and nowdays converted to Cristianism. And we can´t forget the Jewish contribuition !

........................................ ...........................

''When the Roman Legions overran the Jewish nation, much of the Jewish population was sent into exile throughout the Roman Empire. Many were sent to the IBERIAN peninsula.

The Jewish nation in Iberia, numbering approximately 750,000 in the year 1492, were banished from Spain by royal decree of Ferdinand and Isabella

The Jews of Portugal, were banished by royal decree several years later. Relief from the banishment decrees and restoration of civil rights was promised to those Jews who remained and converted to Catholicism. These converts were called CONVERSOS or MARRANOS ''


........................................ .............


Throughout the Iberian peninsula, Jews were given the choice of death or conversion. Castille in particular was rocked by anti-Jewish rioting that rampaged across the kingdom. When order was restored one year later, it was estimated that 100,000 Jews had been killed, another 100,000 had converted to Christianity, and another 100,000 had survived by going into hiding or fleeing to Muslim lands. (J.S. Gerber, (1992), The Jews of Spain , New York: Free Press)

........................................ ..............

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:32 AM
Note that the strongest "Nordic" (Cromagnid) populations on the map are the Northern European and Irish - both of whom are noted for their typically square jaws, body bony faces and bodies, and light coloration.

don't know what genes they tested...
if they had choose something else they would turn to something different!

look the iberians are part amerindian!
Yah right...
they are more nordic than mediterranean?
hum...

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:38 AM
''When the Roman Legions overran the Jewish nation, much of the Jewish population was sent into exile throughout the Roman Empire. Many were sent to the IBERIAN peninsula.

The Jewish nation in Iberia, numbering approximately 750,000 in the year 1492, were banished from Spain by royal decree of Ferdinand and Isabella

The Jews of Portugal, were banished by royal decree several years later. Relief from the banishment decrees and restoration of civil rights was promised to those Jews who remained and converted to Catholicism. These converts were called CONVERSOS or MARRANOS '

the ones who run away most went into northern europe.

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:42 AM
The topic of this thread is Cromagnons, not modern Iberians. None of the faces Vitor posted resemble the Cromagnon skull.

Yes, you are right! We need return to the topic. Some Portuguese are always trying to prove that they are ''really europeans'', or something like that.I confess that I am not interested in give food to a little monster called inferiority complex.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:43 AM
Modern Portuguese are a mix of UPs, Neolithics, German invaders,Phoenicians, Black Africans, Moors, etc,

phoenicians? maybe in catalonia not in portugal

germans? no way!

black africans? ...not right! maybe they were dark fellows from sahara but still different from those more to the south, but still very little input, and that input reached like I said even scandinavia! (it's a very old contribution) more than 10 000 years ago.

moors (read that study that I posted)

etc...aliens?
;)

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:52 AM
Yes, you are right! We need return to the topic. Some Portuguese are always trying to prove that they are ''really europeans'', or something like that.I confess that I am not interested in give food to a little monster called inferiority complex.

Inferiority complex?
hahaha
:)

Mediterraneum is the place of all significant civilizations, not in the nordic scandinavia, to me it would be better to connect with the mediterraneum area.

the problem is that We are old european, more than 60-70% even if YOU DON'T LIKE THAT for whatever reason.

I still don't know why you fight with so much will my opinions on the old european iberian contribution to western (NOT SCANDINAVIA) europe.
I give up...

yah I am not european...I am from polinesia!

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 04:53 AM
Note that around 22kya another Y lineage appears in Europe, the I lineages, apparently from the Middle East, and now found mainly in Central Europe. I suspect these Middle Eastern people eventually mixed with Cromagnon Aurignacian types to produce the modern Alpine types. In any case, this migration was likely to have introduced a more gracile "Mediterranean" (not so cold-adapted) type to Central Europe.


'' It has been suggested that Gravettian and
Aurignac groups coexisted for a few thousand
years, maintaining their identities despite occasional
contacts.''

''After climatic improvement,
this culture spread north and east''

:) You need to see this :
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=20255

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:00 AM
I am also a proud an patriotic portuguese!
even if we are aliens we managed so much stuff...with so little land in africa...
wait in europe!
:)

It also seems that you are a smart fellow...and wants me to get expelled from your europe...(from this forum)
the kind of europe that is only nordic...

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:03 AM
I believe there might be some blood from the sahara when this was in the process of desertification, this might had forced the locals to migrate north and south. reaching sub-saharan population and propagating and reaching Iberia (in low numbers). ... This african gene reached the northern europe with the iberian migrations, of course there is more of that gene in the south, but still there are some in scandinavia. This might be accurate.

I'd like to know more about the cranial morphology of the Gravettians.

Euclides
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:20 AM
Here we go....


phoenicians? maybe in catalonia not in portugal

[QUOTE=Vitor] germans? no way!

Not Germans, but German(ic)


phoenicians? maybe in catalonia not in portugal

Yes...phoenicians!

''From at least the 8th c BC and traditionally earlier (1186 BC), port areas such as Utica and Carthage were settled by these near Eastern navigators and traders from cities such as Tyre. No doubt they were seeking trading centres (emporia) and stepping stones to Spain and southern PORTUGAL (...)''

Extent Of Phoenician Settlement

''The Phoenicians moved west along the coast of North Africa. The area directly west of Egypt is fairly inhospitable, but there are a few settlements in the area. Much more numerous are settlements in the area of Tunisia (where Carthage is). The Phoenicians also settle the southern shore of Iberia (the area south of the Pyrenees, now PORTUGAL and Spain), ''


source : http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-phoenicians.htm



pictures : 1-map showing Phoenician colonies in the western Mediterranean
2-Map of Phoenicia Prima, the Phoenician Colonies, settlements and trade posts that shows the names of Phoenician cities around the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:30 AM
Like some said this is a cromagnon topic...

but ok...
maybe you want me to get expelled from here or something.

germanic-> irrelevant (visigoths and sueves) not even 1%
phoenicians -> again irrelevant not even 0.1% this were more likely comercial outpost...to trade with the locals.

I would love to have a lot of that phoenician blood!
this were acomplished sailors...

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:42 AM
The topic of this thread is Cromagnons, not modern Iberians. None of the faces Vitor posted resemble the Cromagnon skull.

Iberians (and British) populations, like all European populations, have significant post-glacial input from the Near East. Iberians have significant gene flow from North Africa. So do darker Brits, I suspect.

A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. I think the test's "Nordic" component corresponds with similarity/continuity with pre-Neolithic Cromagnid populations - and suspect it might also correspond in individuals with Cromagnid ("UP") morphology.

Note that the strongest "Nordic" (Cromagnid) populations on the map are the Northern European and Irish - both of whom are noted for their typically square jaws, body bony faces and bodies, and light coloration.

I object to your confusing Cro-Magnons with Nordics. They are not the same. It is possible that Nordics are descended from a UP population but it would have to include the gracile Cro-Magnons, (Corded, as Gimbutas describes) or some other long-faced ancestors. For instance, the picture of the actor Robert Shaw posted above shows that his is a Cro-Magnon as in the French family of Cro-Magnons but certainly not Nordic.

The genetic map which accompanies this post has been discussed and found to be incomplete regarding Nordics. The Icelandic map has no yellow (Nordic) in it while the map of Iceland and N. Europe is very yellow. This was explained as a failed definition of Nordics or UP, I forget which.

Awar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:43 AM
I don't understand what you're trying to prove here.

The Iberians are a mix of various Europid strains, that's obvious, as any other part of Europe. They are what they are since the palaeolithic, the later migrations, of course brought new blood, but as time went by, this had less of an impact on an ever growing population.

Awar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:47 AM
The Palaeolithic Europeans might have 'evolved' into a number of physical forms,
who says that they all have to look exactly like they did 40.000 years ago???

So, in one part of Europe, the Palaeolithics evolved into more gracilized forms, in other they remained robust, and somewhere they became depigmented, in other places not so depigmented...

I don't understand what's the problem.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 05:56 AM
what I tried to prove here?
that iberians are (the majority) descendent from ancient europeans

But as usual you are right Awar...

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:01 AM
I object to your confusing Cro-Magnons with Nordics. They are not the same. It is possible that Nordics are descended from a UP population but it would have to include the gracile Cro-Magnons, (Corded, as Gimbutas describes) or some other long-faced ancestors. For instance, the picture of the actor Robert Shaw posted above shows that his is a Cro-Magnon as in the French family of Cro-Magnons but certainly not Nordic.

The genetic map which accompanies this post has been discussed and found to be incomplete regarding Nordics. The Icelandic map has no yellow (Nordic) in it while the map of Iceland and N. Europe is very yellow. This was explained as a failed definition of Nordics or UP, I forget which. The white parts on the map represent incomplete data. Some regions had detailed typing of IE populations into Nordic/Med/Indic/Iranic, and some simply had the basic continental racial types (IE/East Asian/Subsaharan/Amerind). I posted that map because it is the most comprehensive survey of world autosomal genetic variation that I know of presented in a map format. It can be compared with the results of Rosenberg et al, which I cited when I posted the original map. Yes, it is incomplete, but it is far less incomplete than Y-chromsome or mtDNA studies or the existing fossil record.

I made this thread precisely because I think the label "Nordic" associated with a long-faced archetype is quite misleading since such types are morphologically closer to Neolithic invaders than to paleolithic Europeans, who are the most distinctive Europeans. I think Neolithic invaders are less distinctive and blend in with Mediterranean and even Middle Eastern and North African populations, unlike Euro UP.

I think that a truly distinctive "Nordic" type would be people who resemble real Cromagnons, such as the photos I posted early in the thread.

My only question is what Gravettians looked like. They entered Central Europe 22kya, so their assimilation predates the Neolithic, and such people could perhaps be considered part of a distinctive Nordic mix.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:21 AM
So migrations in europe were a constant flux not intermitent arrivals, and not only from a central point...britain also received a lot of people from the others refugees, but the majority were indeed from iberia.
even Iberia did received some other people from the others refugees

Well there was a two way migration without a barrier, so that North African genes have been identified in Ireland, and so that the Iberomaurusian type in North Africa was Mediterranised by Iberian admixture.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:27 AM
Well, whether Mesolithic or Neolithic, it would be postglacial and involve gene flow from somewhere in the Middle East area. My understanding is that the Mesolithic was some kind of response (either by indigenous cultural reaction or immigration) to the Neolithic.

No, the Mesolithic follows the end of the Upper Paeolithic, and is characterised by microlithisation.


In other words, I think there is a stratum in Iberia that might be similar to Brunn Cromagnids, which has later mixed with mesolithic/neolithic immigrants from further East. Likewise, Britain has a UP/Cromagnid substratum that has since assimilated neolithic and also Bronze Age invaders. So the overall picture of modern Spain and Britain have much in common. The most continuous elements (with individuals that wouldn't seem out of place in either Britain or Spain) are those with an "Atlantid" morphology.

Not a lot is known about early Iberia Scoob, but the surviving Upper Paleolithic type in Iberia is Berid.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:34 AM
Don´t forget the mtDNA haplogroup X.Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene-speaking Navajo. European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other.Navajo´s language is related to basque , Chinese and Caucasian languages (except for Georgian)-The Dene-Caucasian group.

Haplogroup X is now identified in East Asia.

In the opinion of most linguists, theres probably no Dene-Caucasian group, because this proposal has never been well supported.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:37 AM
Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.

Yes, in Andalucia the physical type is influenced by Neolithic agriculturalists, according to Lundman.

Glenlivet
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 11:59 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=17995&highlight=Franco-Cantabrian

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 12:51 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=17995&highlight=Franco-Cantabrian

I was right all along...
thanks Volksdeutscher...

Glenlivet
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Yes, you had good points.

There's another interesting study, Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe.

The Longue Durée of genetic ancestry: multiple genetic marker systems and Celtic origins on the Atlantic facade of Europe.

McEvoy B, Richards M, Forster P, Bradley DG.

Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.

Celtic languages are now spoken only on the Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western and central Europe until the collapse of the Roman Empire in the first millennium a.d. It has been common to couple archaeological evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in central Europe with the dispersal of these languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a central European "homeland" for the Celtic peoples. More recently, however, archaeologists have questioned this "migrationist" view of Celtic ethnogenesis. The proposition of a central European ancestry should be testable by examining the distribution of genetic markers; however, although Y-chromosome patterns in Atlantic Europe show little evidence of central European influence, there has hitherto been insufficient data to confirm this by use of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Here, we present both new mtDNA data from Ireland and a novel analysis of a greatly enlarged European mtDNA database. We show that mtDNA lineages, when analyzed in sufficiently large numbers, display patterns significantly similar to a large fraction of both Y-chromosome and autosomal variation. These multiple genetic marker systems indicate a shared ancestry throughout the Atlantic zone, from northern Iberia to western Scandinavia, that dates back to the end of the last Ice Age.

The full report (also attached): http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/celt.pdf





http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=17995&highlight=Franco-Cantabrian

I was right all along...
rhanks Volksdeutscher...

Glenlivet
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 01:21 PM
Vitor, I should add that Southern Spain is high-skulled and largely Saharid (an East-Mediterranid type of Lundman). It would be interesting to study the most common haplotypes of Southern Spain.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 01:38 PM
Vitor, I should add that Southern Spain is high-skulled and largely Saharid (an East-Mediterranid type of Lundman). It would be interesting to study the most common haplotypes of Southern Spain.

maybe more in andaluzia, the moors were there until the XV century, there must be some more mixing and it's closer to gibraltar.

Regarding portugal (my country so my interest, sorry for that...) the southern portuguese have a little more of that north african blood, but not enough to change radically the haplogroup maps (Y haplogroup or mtdna), usually the haplogroups maps for spain are the national average, so I am also curious about that.

I posted before the MTDNA haplogroup, but as usually only the iberian average

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:02 PM
I watch these correlation maps, but I am too lazy to try to take out some information from this. I better ask!
;)

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:28 PM
these smart boys used several variables to guess correlation between those variables, I will study this later...
I do not have time now.

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:43 PM
No, the Mesolithic follows the end of the Upper Paeolithic, and is characterised by microlithisation. I just read a book (pop-sci, "Mapping Human History" - so not as good as e.g. "Human Evolutionary Genetics" by Jobling et al) that described the W European Mesolithic as contemporary with the emergent Near Eastern Neolithic. Is that incorrect?


Not a lot is known about early Iberia Scoob, but the surviving Upper Paleolithic type in Iberia is Berid. Yes, Berids have more of a wide, square face if I'm correct.

What's confusing the issue here is that Spain is a hub. As I've said repeatedly, it's known that Iberia was a refuge during the LGM, from which UP W Euros emerged. It is therefore a source not only of British people, but also Western European in general. Many Y-Chromosomes and other genes are nodal in Iberia - that is, they have their highest frequency and most diversity. This is because Iberia was a milder climate during the height of the late Paleolithic.

Another consequence of Iberia's climate and geographical position is that it's a "hub" for travelers. A well-documented example would be the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties that immigrated from N Africa. But this type of travel has happened many times. Miles Espagne's Iron Age Celts (documented in the Irish Book of Invasions, which I see no reason to disbelieve) traveled through Spain before entering the British Isles.

So the result of all this is that yes, while Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.

That is why Spaniards do not resemble Cromagnon fossils to any significant degree compared as much as some Northen Europeans do. Northern Europe is on the fringe of human habitation in Europe (not just in moden times, but in prehistory), so while it is not a source of genetic diversity, it can preserve ancestral types which have since been displaced or assimilated in more central areas (such as Spain).

So while Vitor's data is right, his apparent contention that modern Spanish are most representative of Cromagnons (as compared to Irish) is quite wrong.

Awar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 02:56 PM
I think it's more related to the climat than to some 'mixing process',
there would HAVE had to be so many newcomers that the 'UP' DNA wouldn't make such a
significant mark on the Spaniards.

I mean, Neolithics made a far larger influence on the Balkans, but, still, Balkanoids are way more robust than any population in SW Europe. ( except for Greeks, Balkanoids are around 50% 'I' , which is also a palaeolithic marker, which originated in the Balkans, and spread to C.Europe and Scandinavia where it mutated into new subclades. )

Then, there's the R1a/HG3, which is also palaeolithic, but, again, the Poles are more robust ( cro-mag-like ) than Russians, even though this population originated in S.Russia.

Think about it, nothing can be explained by recent military invasions.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:29 PM
that is, they have their highest frequency and most diversity. This is because Iberia was a milder climate during the height of the late Paleolithic.


this is conflicting with this!


So the result of all this is that yes, while Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.


the highest frequency(anciente genes) and also higher mixing (with neolithics or whatever)?
this isn't possible!

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:32 PM
most americans think that latinos (mexicans and etc..) are really 100% spaniards.

maybe you (most of you) don't know how a typical spaniard really looks

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 03:33 PM
I just read a book (pop-sci, "Mapping Human History" - so not as good as e.g. "Human Evolutionary Genetics" by Jobling et al) that described the W European Mesolithic as contemporary with the emergent Near Eastern Neolithic. Is that incorrect?

Because the Neolithic began in West Asia, it corresponds with the European Mesolithic.

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 06:05 PM
the highest frequency(anciente genes) and also higher mixing (with neolithics or whatever)? this isn't possible! My mistake. I meant to say, Spain has the highest diversity of many of these genes. It does not currently have the highest frequency. My original bolded statement is correct: Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.


most americans think that latinos (mexicans and etc..) are really 100% spaniards. maybe you (most of you) don't know how a typical spaniard really looks I am aware of the differences between Iberian Spaniards and Portuguese and racially mixed New World Hispanics. For typical Spaniards, I think of Pablo Picasso, Fernando Cortez, Gael Garcia Bernal, Javier Bardem, or even the people painted by El Greco. Are these people not representative of Spain? All of these people show at least some visible affinity with the Near East - and look quite different from Cromagnids, as it obvious at a glance at the facial structure. Such people are clearly different from Amerind-influenced types such as John Leguizamo, Manuel Noriega, and Jennifer Lopez (who also looks a bit Subsaharan).

Atlanto-med, my point about the Mesolithic is that it occurred after the postglacial warming (when Europe was more attractive to immigrants from elsewhere (the Near East). That is why I called it subsequent to the Neolithic, even if locally it was not in some cases.

Awar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Javier Bardem looks a bit like some Cro-Magnid N.Africans.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Iberia still have the most R1b genes in western europe (taking out ireland and maybe west england).

maybe pablo picasso type is the one closer to the cro-magnon...

there is something called founder effect, that might be responsible for the differences in the phenotype.
and the less diversity in northern europe.

just look iceland...and watch the founder effect in action!
genetically iceland is not like the rest of the scandinavian countries.

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Javier Bardem is not typical iberian...
that is...there are no real typical iberians!
:)

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Iberia still have the most R1b genes in western europe (taking out ireland and maybe west england). maybe pablo picasso type is the one closer to the cro-magnon...there is something called founder effect, that might be responsible for the differences in the phenotype.
and the less diversity in northern europe. Vitor, you make some incidental good points but your overall argument is flawed. Y Chromosome is not representative of a population's genome. It's a marker that is very sensitive to founder effects and drift. It's also under strong cultural selection since the dawn of patriarchy.

You need to take other info into account. Blood groups are under strong selection, so are also not representative of racial composition. Neutral markers (the more, the better) are needed to asses population composition.

But even the Y Chromosome map you posted refutes your thesis. Spain and Portugal each have huge chunks of black and brown (North African and Near Eastern) lineages in their composition, which Ireland and Britain do not have. These Near Eastern and North African lineages are what makes Spain continuous with the rest of the Mediterranean area.

I agree that Javier Bardem looks more Cromagnid than the other Spaniards I mention. Vitor is also right to point out that since Iberia is a source of Paleolithic W European populations, it has more diversity and extra-Iberian populations represent only a subset of Iberian diversity. But to suggest that Pablo Picasso might represent a Cromagnon type is completely unsubstantiated. Vitor, if you want to make your case, you need to show Cromagnon fossil evidence that resembles Picasso. Every Cromagnon skull I've seen resembles those I posted at the top of this thread, and none remotely resembles Picasso.


Javier Bardem is not typical iberian...that is...there are no real typical iberians! Given that this is an anthropological forum, this statement inclines towards absurdity. Just because Iberia has a high degree of genetic diversity relative to Ireland (which is one of the distinctively least diverse nations in Europe), it does not follow that Iberia has an infinite amount of diversity, and cannot be meaningfully characterized by an array of features.

Your statement is only as true as such statements as "there is no human type." While it may be true in some sense (there is variation amongst humans), it is quite easy to distinguish humans from mackerals or even other primates. And just because all dogs are descended from a wolf ancestor, it does not follow that Bloodhounds (a specific type) are best characterized by wolves (the source population).

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 11:30 PM
please it was kind of a joke...
:)

phenotype is the one that could get selected by sexual means (cultural influence) not the Y haplotype.

it's blind...Y haplotrpe don't reveal anything in the phenotype.

blood type could be selected, but still there are lots of RH negatives in iberia, this type of blood is strange, it exist only in europe (more in iberia), and do not have anything good ...

mothers with this type of blood if carrying a positive baby, would gain (not today with modern medicine) big problems...that is dead child , or even death to the mother.

And even regartheleess of this problem still the most percentage of negative blood is in iberia (my type of blood...RH negative, like my father).

even with "negative" non blind genes, we still are carrying them...since the paleolithic...

yes we have some neolithic blood..most likely from north africa (from middle east) but, it's over emphasized!

it's only 20% of all our genes (in average.).

Yes Ireland do not have neolithic blood unlike Iberians,but like most european countries, iberians do have that neolithic blood...we don't live in an island.
but we are still predominantely ancient...

putting iberia in the mediterranean people complex (like in argelia), is wrong.


Vitor, you make some incidental good points but your overall argument is flawed. Y Chromosome is not representative of a population's genome. It's a marker that is very sensitive to founder effects and drift. It's also under strong cultural selection since the dawn of patriarchy.

remember that iberia is densely populated since paleolithic, so that founder effect doesn't apply!

Scoob
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Vitor, I agree with what you are saying and appreciate the wealth of information you have posted. The reason I argue is that my point in this thread is that the Nazi-derived idea of a "pure Nordic" as a tall, gracile Halltstatt type is wrong. The truly unique Nordics (in the geographic sense) are UP types, which are largely derived from Cromagnon peoples of the Ice Age.

So in making this point, Iberia is less relevant, as it is a more mixed nation. I have been to Lisboa and the countryside, and I found the people very friendly and the country very beautiful. The sunset on the harbor looking out onto the expanse of the Atlantic is a breathtaking sight that I cannot forget. I have no intentions to disparage the Iberian peoples (I consider Iberia one of the 2 main "cultural factories" that produced Renaissance culture in Europe). I just don't think they are representative Cromagnons in a pure form! :)

Vitor
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 11:58 PM
Vitor, I agree with what you are saying and appreciate the wealth of information you have posted. The reason I argue is that my point in this thread is that the Nazi-derived idea of a "pure Nordic" as a tall, gracile Halltstatt type is wrong. The truly unique Nordics (in the geographic sense) are UP types, which are largely derived from Cromagnon peoples of the Ice Age.

So in making this point, Iberia is less relevant, as it is a more mixed nation. I have been to Lisboa and the countryside, and it's quite beautiful, so do not think I intend to disparage the Iberian peoples. The sunset on the harbor looking out onto the expanse of the Atlantic is a breathtaking sight that I cannot forget. I just don't think they are representative Cromagnons in a pure form! :)

Yes...I agree with you!
but who are?
maybe the irish?

Awar
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 12:19 AM
The truly unique Nordics (in the geographic sense) are UP types, which are largely derived from Cromagnon peoples of the Ice Age.


That's what I disagree with here.
IMO, a person can be genetically predominantly Palaeolithic, and look like a med,
while another can be Neolithic ( or whatever ) and look like a textbook UP.

Awar
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 12:20 AM
btw. Don't the Irish have a significant ammount of maternal Neolithic DNA.

Scoob
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 12:37 AM
That's what I disagree with here.
IMO, a person can be genetically predominantly Palaeolithic, and look like a med,while another can be Neolithic ( or whatever ) and look like a textbook UP. Right - it all depends on which genes the person got. The traits that people look for to determine phenotype are possibly only a small subset of all genetic material IMO. It's also possible that people are very good at guessing genetic composition based on faces and other features (skin types, body types, smell, style of motion and expression), and that the features we look for are in fact representative of overall genetic composition.

And I don't claim that all Irish are Cromagnon types - only some are. I think Conan O'Brien is an example of one, while Pierce Brosnan might have significant Neolithic admixture. I think most living Europeans have at least some Neolithic (and Cromagnid) admixture - it's just a question of how much.

Awar
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 12:54 AM
I think that pigmentation isn't a way to determine Neolithic or Palaeolithic ancestry.
I hope soon, someone will make a study and show us at least a hint of how long it takes for pigmentation to change ( over generations ).

I believe there were many dark Cro-Magnoids, perhaps even more than the depigmented ones. Or, that in the last 10.000 years, there was a sort of 'pigmentational adaptation' which happened in Europe.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 04:46 AM
The white parts on the map represent incomplete data. Some regions had detailed typing of IE populations into Nordic/Med/Indic/Iranic, and some simply had the basic continental racial types (IE/East Asian/Subsaharan/Amerind). I posted that map because it is the most comprehensive survey of world autosomal genetic variation that I know of presented in a map format. It can be compared with the results of Rosenberg et al, which I cited when I posted the original map. Yes, it is incomplete, but it is far less incomplete than Y-chromsome or mtDNA studies or the existing fossil record.

I made this thread precisely because I think the label "Nordic" associated with a long-faced archetype is quite misleading since such types are morphologically closer to Neolithic invaders than to paleolithic Europeans, who are the most distinctive Europeans. I think Neolithic invaders are less distinctive and blend in with Mediterranean and even Middle Eastern and North African populations, unlike Euro UP.

I think that a truly distinctive "Nordic" type would be people who resemble real Cromagnons, such as the photos I posted early in the thread.

My only question is what Gravettians looked like. They entered Central Europe 22kya, so their assimilation predates the Neolithic, and such people could perhaps be considered part of a distinctive Nordic mix.


This thread is moving so fast and discussing so many topics that it needs to be split up into several threads--they are all worth discussion.

Yes, the long-faced post-pleistocene types do look (morphology) like they should be represented in the Nordic makeup. Coon said this in 1939. But the genetic evidence is not backing this up, or, if admitting agricultural neolithic types, only doing so on a small basis. This is a problem. Just plodding along with craniometrics, liguistics, historical reconstructions as we have always done in Anthro. is not going to "move the ball forward". Genetics, as have been pointed out by almost everyone is incomplete, at best. But, someday, maybe, we will have a more comprehensive picture of the genetics and fine-tune the biological clock to get a better picture. Scoob's genetic chart was good but it is not the final word nor is this methodology complete enough for going back into the Upper Paleolithic or back further to Middle Paleolithic times.

Vitor
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 08:39 PM
Do you believe that this face could be of an cro-magnon?
this is another reconstruction...
http://www.fathom.com/feature/190159/3730_magnon_SM.jpg

btw, I have strong extraverted gonial angles...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/ant/Alpine-skull_b.jpg
the bump in the lower maxilar, is that a cro-magnon feature?

No asiatic or negroid skulls have this kind of stuff

Awar
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Hmm, where are his browridges???

Vitor
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Hmm, where are his browridges???

cro-magnon elegantis!
:)

Vitor
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 11:27 PM
it's a 3 dimensional image in 2 dimensions..

maybe it's there but this frontal image don't capture that...

Mandible
Wednesday, November 17th, 2004, 11:47 PM
maybe some cro-magnon here too

Vitor
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 02:17 AM
yes...

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=26206
cromagnon

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 06:00 AM
yes...

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=26206
cromagnon

This guy certainly has been influenced by Cro-Magnon genes but I like Robert Shaw better. The Cro-Magnons all looked like family. They had wide, short faces, long, relatively low skull heights, very long heads, low, square orbits, projecting noses (like Ingrid Bergmann), strong chins but more pointed than some Nordics or Nordic-UP mixtures. They had strong bodies with wide shoulders with plenty of space between the muscle attachments. The legs were not heavily muscled as in bodybuilders by strong with large attachements for the hip muscles. The forearms were tapering from the upper arm to the wrist and the fingers tapered, gracefully, from the hand to the fingertip. This same tapering was found in the upper and lower leg. As opposed to the Neanderthal, Cro-Magnons had a waist, meaning the upper rib cage was wide and the lower rib cage, narrow.

From what I have seen, the UP in general had a somewhat more rugged body than these French Cro-Magnons with the exception of the giant of Grimaldi (Italy) who was Cro-Magnon (not to be confused with the Negroid mother and son also found there). The arms and legs over time seem to have lost the tapering look, especially the wrists which look larger as time goes on and so look more Neanderthal as the Upper Paleolithic progresses. True, Obercassel is not as rugged nor are the UP descendents on the North European Plain but by then the Borreby people had appeared as had the descendants of some of the Irish western Norwegians who were very strong looking in both body and skull.

Mandible
Thursday, November 18th, 2004, 07:13 PM
Clare Short, Anjelica Huston and a couple of North American Indians, Dakota tribe.

Test
Wednesday, November 24th, 2004, 02:17 AM
Spencer Wells, the geneticist who traced the M117 ("Cro-Magnon" line) link to M45 in Central Asia and "discovered" the Eurasian steppe people, is ironically a Cro-Mag himself. In fact, he's one of the best examples.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Spencer_Wells.jpg

Dolf Lundgren:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/photo_bucket_1/Races/Dolf_Lundgren.jpg

Evolved
Thursday, November 25th, 2004, 07:17 AM
Do you believe that this face could be of an cro-magnon?
this is another reconstruction...
http://www.fathom.com/feature/190159/3730_magnon_SM.jpg

Reminds me of this guy:

http://www.nationalism.org/rr/news/sukhorukov_3.jpg

catchmeifyoukhan
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Do you believe that this face could be of an cro-magnon?
this is another reconstruction...
http://www.fathom.com/feature/190159/3730_magnon_SM.jpg

btw, I have strong extraverted gonial angles...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/nils_holgerson/ant/Alpine-skull_b.jpg
the bump in the lower maxilar, is that a cro-magnon feature?

No asiatic or negroid skulls have this kind of stuff

Awar
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 10:24 PM
Heh, I have that, extraverted gonial angle, and mine is bigger than the one on the skull.
:-O

catchmeifyoukhan
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Actually, yes ! This alternative reconstruction may be not as sexy as Rolf Lundgren, but most cro magnons looked more like Pat Robertson or Gal Schwartzkopf, though keeping their wide face, wide mouth, short nose, deep set eyes, and so on. Just like Picasso, is an alternative portrait of the ibero insular examplified by Julio Iglesias. I meet a lot of these ugly non elegant cro magnoid faces during my travels in Germany. :D

catchmeifyoukhan
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 10:53 PM
*

Not a lot is known about early Iberia Scoob, but the surviving Upper Paleolithic type in Iberia is Berid.
I would like to see what a berid looks like : is it a pure UP ? a reduced UP ? In what direction (reduced borreby or reduced brunn). I was told that berids were actually a robust variety of ibero insular. Maybe a blend with UPs ? Are they very brown or intermediate ? Can someone give me an example, post pictures ?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 04:54 AM
I have seen extraverted gonial angles in Whites, Africans and Asians.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 05:04 AM
I would like to see what a berid looks like : is it a pure UP ? a reduced UP ? In what direction (reduced borreby or reduced brunn). I was told that berids were actually a robust variety of ibero insular. Maybe a blend with UPs ? Are they very brown or intermediate ? Can someone give me an example, post pictures ?

Gadaffi and Tom Jones seem to be good examples of Berids. Becaues Upper Paleolithic Caucasoids are just robust Caucasoids, Berids are Upper Paleolithic Meds.

catchmeifyoukhan
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 10:34 PM
Gadaffi and Tom Jones seem to be good examples of Berids. Becaues Upper Paleolithic Caucasoids are just robust Caucasoids, Berids are Upper Paleolithic Meds.
Thanks Atlanto-med. Do you consider that Berids are modern mechtoids or do they belong to a quite different philum ? If I follow Coon's opinion, according to whom, alpins are just reduced UPs, how does a reduced berid look like ? Is he simply an ibero insular, or should it also produce a kind of brachicephalic mediterranean, let's say "southern alpinid" ?

Test
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 10:34 PM
I have seen extraverted gonial angles in Whites, Africans and Asians.It's all frequencies, even if the frequency in one population is less than 1%. This is why I hesitate in jumping to quickly attributing, for example, some thing found in Italians to "Mongoloid" admixture.

catchmeifyoukhan
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 11:00 PM
QUOTE "A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. "

Thank you for this map, Scoob, which helps a lot for the debate. I also think that the typical nordic should be examplified by the UP rather than by the Hallstatt nordics :
- First because, cro-magnoids whether Brunn, Borreby, Anglo-saxon, Tronder, cro-magnoid subnordics, east baltics, etc, caracterised by their squared law face are more numerous than Hallstatt or even keltic nordics. I know this argument is somewhat fallacious, but if we say the contrary, the nordic population would be limited to about 6 millions central and eastern swedes, 2 millions eastern norvegians and 1 million western finns, which is pretty few.

- secondly, because, it is my opinion, that Hallstatt nordics are just diverging UPs and not at all, as Coon postulated, depigmented mediterraneans. Even if unskilled anthropologists claim that it is difficult to distinguish mediterranean skulls from nordic skulls, there are quite a lot differences. The tendency to gather long faces in a same group, whithout considering other caracteristics such as the form of the jaw and of the orbits, is as eroneous as the tendancy to classify mankind solely according to the cephalic index.

catchmeifyoukhan
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 11:14 PM
[QUOTE=catchmeifyoukhan]QUOTE "A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. "


Do you have more detailed maps based on multiallelic studies ? The white race is the only one to be subdivided into four categories (including indianids), whereas the sub-saharians and east asiatics are not subdivided, so that it is impossible to distinguish whether all sub-saharian components are actually composed of negrids, as well as east asiatics are actually composed of mongoloids. I would respond "surely no", since at least 20% of black africa is inhabited by ethiopids, and one third of east and central asia is inhabitated by touranians. I guess that the 5 % of subsaharian blood that can be counted in southern Europe according to your multiallelic map is due to an ethiopid contribution within the mediterranean race rather than to negrid blood. Otherwise, spaniards would look like more to Brasilians (less the amerindian blood) or the Puerto ricans rather to what they are actually. Interesting however to notice that the assumably nordic contribution represents more than 40% of the spaniard paternity. This would mean that the western mediterraneans (in red), though representing only one fourth of the contribution were actually very brown ? Or is that due to the other five per cents of indid contribution ? Any idea ?

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 7th, 2004, 01:23 AM
Thanks Atlanto-med. Do you consider that Berids are modern mechtoids or do they belong to a quite different philum ? If I follow Coon's opinion, according to whom, alpins are just reduced UPs, how does a reduced berid look like ? Is he simply an ibero insular, or should it also produce a kind of brachicephalic mediterranean, let's say "southern alpinid" ?

I dont think anyone today is truly a modern Mechtoid, but I feel theres a Mechtoid influence in Berids (a Berid known as the Djerba type is present in North Africa). According to Lundman "The true West-Mediterranean race (the Ibero-Insular race of Deniker) in southwestern Europe is low-skulled and longskulled (dolichocephalic), dark, short-statured, and gracile in body form. This race has a narrow face and is low in the frequency of blood type gene q. Within this region, however, there are remnants of the still smaller Berid race. This race is broader-formed in face and nose, but very similar to the West-Mediterranean race in the other anthropological traits - such as head form and pigmentation. The Berid race is also low in the frequency of blood type genes p and q."

Several anthropologists have actually considered all Alpines to be the reduced descendents of coarse Mediterraneans, but Im unsure about their exact origin or if there was more than one centre of their origin, though the broad vault is continuous in Europeans from the Upper Paleolithic to moderns. To Lundman, the West Alpine emerged from the Berid in the Neolithic.

cruhmann
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 01:58 AM
I am always curious why many want to jump to the conclusion that so many of our European subraces are just reduced or bleached versions of other races. We hear Alpines are "reduced Borrebys" (or that Borrebys are just "Alpines that grew big and got blonder") or they are "Meditteraneans that became brachycephalized and I guess slightly lighter-complexioned", Nordics are "bleached Meditteraneans" or they are are "reduced UPs", and it goes on and on. I believe we have about as much evidence for all of these theories as we do for the one that wants to make us descended from those folks who swing in trees and eat bananas. I believe that the sub-races that exist in Europe and elsewhere today are simply combinations and re-combinations of various ancient races.

cruhmann
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 02:37 AM
Some here seem to be saying that the best modern-day representatives of the old Cro-Magnon race are to be found in northern Europe among Brunn, Borreby and/or Nordics. I don't see it. I believe the best representatives are found in more or less original form in the Dordogne region in France, where the original skull was found, and various parts of western Europe, including certain areas of Britain. I'm not sure about the Basques, they may have some, too. The Cro-Magnon combined dolichophaly with a short, broad face, something I don't believe is common in northern Europe, and was probably brunette in pigmentation. I would like to see statistical evidence on individuals (not groups of individuals) that are Faelids, who are sometimes said to be modern-day Cro-Magnons, that shows a correlation of long-headedness and short, broad faces. In northern Germany, the average CI in most places is 81-82. There are many sub-brachycephals and not a few full brachycephals, in addition to mesocephals, but only a small number of fully dolichocephalic individuals, who generally are somewhat "Hallstatt" or "Corded" in appearance. Some of the brachycephals exhibit a slight narrowing/lengthening in a Dinaric-like manner, although they are in the minority. Taxonomists of old, who stated that dolichocephaly was predominant in northern Germany, were greatly exaggerating it, and were wrong according to the scientific research. As for Dalarna, I don't know enough about that region to comment.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 08:56 AM
I believe that the sub-races that exist in Europe and elsewhere today are simply combinations and re-combinations of various ancient races.

This is true, but things like reduction and gracilisation have happened to those ancient races. Since the Upper Paleolithic, moderns have become less robust.

catchmeifyoukhan
Wednesday, December 8th, 2004, 10:11 PM
I believe that the sub-races that exist in Europe and elsewhere today are simply combinations and re-combinations of various ancient races.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, concerning the false assumption that nordids are bleached mediterraneans. Mainly, because it is contradicted by too many data at the same time, such as skeletic, soft parts and genetic differences. Concerning alpins, the situation is different : the alpin race itself is not clearly defined, and may be attached either to the "nordic" world or to the "mediterranean world". In fact there are many alpinid races, from the west alpins and their berid relatives to the east alpins and their gorid cousins. In all cases, an alpinisation process has been observed during the very begining of the neolitic, and again during the middle age without any invasion involved. This may be partially due to crossings between different races (for example a wide cro-magnoid with a short mediterranean), but also to internal foetalisation processes due to social recomposition : as an example, one can imagine that during the mesolitic, the retreat of the glacier led the most robust cro-magnons migrating to the north, whereas, the more foetalised ones remained in central europe where the climate became milder and compatible with their "weaker" constitution. In the same way, during the middle age, the nordic nobility was affected by both over mortality due to war and under fertility due to religious vocation. This gave a demographic advantage to alpins in regions of Europe where both types could be found. Concerning the Dordogne region, which I know very well, one can hardly find any cro-magnoid individual today, and most inhabitants are typical alpins. It is however possible that they are foetalised descendants for the aurignacians and magdalenians cro-magnoids, since genetic data advocate for this region as being the genetic shelter of west europeans. However, this would be not much, and probably less, than the nort west europeans.

cruhmann
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 12:23 AM
Concerning alpins, the situation is different : the alpin race itself is not clearly defined, and may be attached either to the "nordic" world or to the "mediterranean world". In fact there are many alpinid races, from the west alpins and their berid relatives to the east alpins and their gorid cousins. In all cases, an alpinisation process has been observed during the very begining of the neolitic, and again during the middle age without any invasion involved. This may be partially due to crossings between different races (for example a wide cro-magnoid with a short mediterranean), but also to internal foetalisation processes due to social recomposition

Well, Catch, my opinion is probably not any better than anyone elses, but I think the differentiation between various Alpine populations is due partly to mixture - slight or extensive - with other races (which would not be too far-fetched considering the vast territory they occupy) as well as perhaps to a lesser degree, adaption, although I'm not a big believer in that as a major factor in race forming. It may also be that in at least some of the cases we may be dealing with totally seperate races that share certain characteristics merely by coincidence. I think that in its purest form, the western Alpine race, is brachycephalic, with a smallish and broadish face, stocky but not not massive body build, medium stature, and intermediate pigmentation (generally greenish-brown or not-so-dark brown eyes and medium to darkish brown hair, sometimes with slight reddish undertone). Individuals of this type occur frequently in parts of central and east-central France, and there are pockets of this type in southwest Germany and central Bavaria, and perhaps Switzerland. There are places where Alpines appear to have a possible pre-Nordic Danubian mixture, and it has been noted that in some parts of Switzerland and southern Germany there is a correlation between blondness and shorter statures. One author also postulated an Alpine-Combe Capelle mix occuring in ancient times in central Europe. Southern France has many Alpine-Gracile Med mixes as well as partly Dinaricized Atlanto-Med/Alpine mixes in some areas, and eastern Europeans have many Neo-Danubian/Alpines (Gorid?). The Sudetish Type seems to be at least partly derived from such a mixture. There are Borreby/Alpine mixes (sometimes also with Keltic Nordic and/or other mixture) among Walloons and neighboring parts of Germany (Eifel, Saarland), southern Netherlands and far northern France. There are Danubian/Alpine populations in the Caucasus and in parts of central Asia Alpines are mixed with Mongoloids and others. Mixed Berid/Alpines also occur in a few places in western Europe. These are some examples.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 03:14 AM
Some here seem to be saying that the best modern-day representatives of the old Cro-Magnon race are to be found in northern Europe among Brunn, Borreby and/or Nordics. I don't see it. I believe the best representatives are found in more or less original form in the Dordogne region in France, where the original skull was found, and various parts of western Europe, including certain areas of Britain. I'm not sure about the Basques, they may have some, too. The Cro-Magnon combined dolichophaly with a short, broad face, something I don't believe is common in northern Europe, and was probably brunette in pigmentation. I would like to see statistical evidence on individuals (not groups of individuals) that are Faelids, who are sometimes said to be modern-day Cro-Magnons, that shows a correlation of long-headedness and short, broad faces. In northern Germany, the average CI in most places is 81-82. There are many sub-brachycephals and not a few full brachycephals, in addition to mesocephals, but only a small number of fully dolichocephalic individuals, who generally are somewhat "Hallstatt" or "Corded" in appearance. Some of the brachycephals exhibit a slight narrowing/lengthening in a Dinaric-like manner, although they are in the minority. Taxonomists of old, who stated that dolichocephaly was predominant in northern Germany, were greatly exaggerating it, and were wrong according to the scientific research. As for Dalarna, I don't know enough about that region to comment.

Yes, I think the Cro-Magnon skull and this type are sort of a family type. Perhaps this is why Coon used the word Bruenn, referencing another fossil found near the city by that name rather than "Cro-Magnon". I do think there are a lot of long headed, short faced people running around going by various type names. The round headedness you see in Germany is probably the result of the other UP type, the Borreby and its admixture with other northern types. Round headedness appears to be dominant.

Awar
Thursday, December 9th, 2004, 03:28 AM
Dr.SW, have you seen the graph with the shown change in CI through the centuries.
Germans were more dolichocephalic once, but it changed.

According to Coon, Serbia was a total brachycephalic teritory, but that's something you don't see often these days.

I think in USA the trend is toward a UP-like phenotype ?

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, December 11th, 2004, 01:11 AM
Well, Catch, my opinion is probably not any better than anyone elses, but I think the differentiation between various Alpine populations is due partly to mixture -

There, we agree. Alpinization is a multifactor process. Hibridation with either meds, mongolids, foetalised nordics such as danubians, etc is one factor. Local selection (rather than adaptation) is another factor, and it seems that it is the most ancient one, in specific isolated regions (mountains, poor granitic soils, etc) where the founder effect was still at work. This first alpinization process may have occurred as early as mesolitic. Considering that most nordics are in fact unreduced paleolitics, we could have an explanation of the strong genetic similarities between nordics and alpines.

catchmeifyoukhan
Saturday, December 11th, 2004, 09:36 PM
There, we agree. Alpinization is a multifactor process. Hibridation with either meds, mongolids, foetalised nordics such as danubians, etc is one factor. Local selection (rather than adaptation) is another factor, and it seems that it is the most ancient one, in specific isolated regions (mountains, poor granitic soils, etc) where the founder effect was still at work. This first alpinization process may have occurred as early as mesolitic. Considering that most nordics are in fact unreduced paleolitics, we could have an explanation of the strong genetic similarities between nordics and alpines.
Yet, pure reduced UPs, are not very different from their rugged UPs cognates : secondary caracters remain the same (snub nose, high cheeks, big mouth, thin lips with slightly everted lower lip, fair strawberry skin, blue eyes as well as light brown or reddish hairs). You may find a lot of them, for instance on the coasts of Brittany, where a clearly distinguishable irish type is to be found, but with reduced size and brachicephally. But since, most regions where this first alpinization process has occurred (such as the center and the east of France, Northern Italy, the Alps in general, Northern spain and the balkans) are contiguous to regions where the mediterranean type is predominant, these reduced UPs have, in most areas, mixed with the latter, acquiring darker hairs, eyes and skin color, while, in many cases, keeping their brachicephally, although the head is smaller. The reason of this brachicephally despite the influx of mediterranean blood is due to the fact, that mediterranean dolichocephals have egg-shaped skuls, the skul becoming larger at the occiput, whereas UPs, at least the borrebys, have often a reversed shape, with large forehead and a relatively narrow and saillant occiput. The brachicephally of mixes between reduced UPs and meds is the result of a combination of a wide UP forehead and of a wide medlike occiput, which produces an extreme brachicephally. But along, you may also find other combinations such as narrow medlike foreheads with narrow occiput, or totally med skulls as well as totally (reduced UP) skulls. Anyway, this type with transitional features between reduced UPs (or northern alpines) and meds has been examplified as the "typical alpine type" . I would add that (it's just a personal impression, which deserve to be verified by actual surveys) the so-called "berid" type distinguished by some authors in spain, is a particular blend of meds and of reduced UPs, where the morphological features of (reduced) UPs predominate (wide snub nose, high cheeks, thin lips, deep eyes, relatively large forehead) while the skin color, the size and the form of the skull converge in the direction of ibero-insulars. I am looking for information on this type. I am also interested in reconstructions of the so-called "teviec type", a mesolithic type, which is said (Coon) to be found in Aquitany (SW of France) and which could offer another form of combination between (reduced) UPs and mediterraneans. Any idea ?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, December 12th, 2004, 05:26 AM
Dr.SW, have you seen the graph with the shown change in CI through the centuries.
Germans were more dolichocephalic once, but it changed.

According to Coon, Serbia was a total brachycephalic teritory, but that's something you don't see often these days.

I think in USA the trend is toward a UP-like phenotype ?


CI changes all the time. There is a famous study of immigrant Jews in the US whose children and grandchildren got progressively more and more long-headed. I think CI is to some extent plastic but some groups Nordic, Alpine, Med., UP, etc. tend to be what they are even though they also seem to vary somewhat through time. This may be some sort of environmental influence.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 03:54 AM
CI changes all the time. There is a famous study of immigrant Jews in the US whose children and grandchildren got progressively more and more long-headed. I think CI is to some extent plastic but some groups Nordic, Alpine, Med., UP, etc. tend to be what they are even though they also seem to vary somewhat through time. This may be some sort of environmental influence.

CI varies, but in absolute measures the proportions remain steady.
The population in Central France became in time more brachycephalic in the nineteenth century compared to their predecessors in the Middle Ages. The shift was gradually and what went lost in lenght, was won in lateral diameter, but facial and other bodily features weren't really affected.
South Germany is another story. The local Alpinoids retained the same and stable across the centuries head lenght of the Germanics during the Migration Age. No dramatic overturning of dolichocephaly in sé, but a broadening which helped to device the impression these Alpines are reduced Faelids, which is a provocative thought worth to contemplate and not just a ludricrous blunder with a Nordish agenda in the background.

cruhmann
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 04:13 AM
It could be that changes in head-form through the centuries are simply gradual effects of race-mixing that may have taken place centuries before.

cruhmann
Monday, December 13th, 2004, 04:32 AM
Anyway, this type with transitional features between reduced UPs (or northern alpines) and meds has been examplified as the "typical alpine type" . I would add that (it's just a personal impression, which deserve to be verified by actual surveys) the so-called "berid" type distinguished by some authors in spain, is a particular blend of meds and of reduced UPs, where the morphological features of (reduced) UPs predominate (wide snub nose, high cheeks, thin lips, deep eyes, relatively large forehead) while the skin color, the size and the form of the skull converge in the direction of ibero-insulars.
Well, I don't think that a cross between Borrebys, or north Alpines as you call them, is going to produce the "typical Alpine type". Borrebys have blond to brown hair and blue eyes, and Meds have dark brown to black hair and pure brown eyes. Alpines have medium to dark brown hair and typically greenish-brown eyes. Alpines are not much taller than Meds, and Borrebys, in their original form, were quite tall. The roundish shape of the Alpine skull is unlike the large, square-shaped skull of the Borreby or the small narrow skull of Meds.
As for the Berid type, it is generally darker than Ibero-Insular (according to Coon). It is doubtful that all UP types were blond.

catchmeifyoukhan
Tuesday, December 14th, 2004, 01:40 AM
Well, I don't think that a cross between Borrebys, or north Alpines as you call them, is going to produce the "typical Alpine type". Borrebys have blond to brown hair and blue eyes, and Meds have dark brown to black hair and pure brown eyes. Alpines have medium to dark brown hair and typically greenish-brown eyes. Alpines are not much taller than Meds, and Borrebys, in their original form, were quite tall. The roundish shape of the Alpine skull is unlike the large, square-shaped skull of the Borreby or the small narrow skull of Meds.
As for the Berid type, it is generally darker than Ibero-Insular (according to Coon). It is doubtful that all UP types were blond.
fairness (rather than blondness) of UPs is just an assumption, due to 1) the fact that they are indigenous in North and Central Europe 2) They are always found in more or less diluted proportion among nordids and the reverse is also true 3) the living nordids showing UP features, are more than less blond than the pure taxonomically nordids.

I have not read from Coon, that berids are browner than ibero insulars. They are just wider. Maybe, you are confusing with the Muge type, a primitive and very gracile mediterranean type, which is sometime compared with berids for the breath of the nose, but which shows more southern mediterranean features than the berids. In fact, this word berid is itself not really stabilised. The only thing one is sure, is that there are convergences with the alpinid type.

I would like to stress the possibility to modify a race without involving any foreign input, via two selective processes : "alpinisation", which is a reduction of the lengh of the skull, and "gracilisation", which is a mere reduction of the breadth of the face and of the skull. We can compare these processes to the tuning of the screen on old TV sets, either by widening the image or by narrowing it.

As an example, I would propose the following graduation between borreby and mediterranean, via a combination between an "alpinisation process" and a blending with western mediterraneans :

- "unreduced borreby" (tall and large, fair hairs and eyes, often refous, square face, subbrachicephalic, large headed, small and snub nose, mainly in western Germany and western Norway, but also throughout the whole nordic world from Ireland to Oural)
- "reduced borreby" or "northern alpines", (medium size, fair hairs, square face, brachicephalic, medium head, in Wallony and southern Germany, with a lot of spots in north east of France, Austria, Brittany, western Hungary, eastern and western slavic countries, with some minor ladogian accretion)
- "western alpines" a particular blend of the latter with meds, predominantly of atlanto mediterranean type (less than medium size, brown hairs, green eyes, round face, thick nose , small heads, very brachicephalic, to be found, in Central France, Danubian valley, northern Italy, western balkans)
- "berids", an other blend between northern alpines and mediterraneans of ibero insular type (small size, brown hairs, brown eyes, square face, small but wide nose, mesocephalic, to be found mostly in Spain, where it forms the majority of the Castillans)
- Typical mediterraneans, with the traditional distinction between "atlanto mediterraneans" (brown hairs, brown eyes, brunet skin, less than medium to medium size, mesocephalic, wavy or aquilin nose), and "ibero insulars" (black hairs, black eyes, olive skin, small size, very dolichocephalic, small headed, straight thin nose)


As regard brunns, we could also propose the following graduation, via a "gracilisation process" and a blending of the latter with eastern mediterraneans :

- unreduced brunns or "tronders" (tall and large, large triangular face with deep chin, mesocephalic, small but often wavy or hooked nose but with upturned end, fair skin, blond hairs and blue eyes, mostly in Norway, with important spots in northern Germany - Responsible for the phaellish type when mixed with unreduced borreby)
- "reduced brunns" or "corded nordics", (tall and thin, thin triangular face with deep chin, dolichocephalic, thin and often wavy or hooked nose but with upturned end, fair skin, ash blond hairs and grey eyes, mostly in eastern sweden, baltic countries, northern Russia, with spots in the whole nordic world)
- hallstatt nordics (mixture between corded nordics in the majority and danubian mediteraneans in the minority, Sweden and scattered throughout the whole nordic world)
- keltic nordics (mixture between Hallstat nordics in the majority and atlanto mediteraneans in the minority)
- norics (mixture between Hallstat nordics in the majority and armenoids in the minority)
- north atlantids (unreduced brunns with atlanto mediteraneans)
- the three eastern mediterranean races (danubians, atlanto mediteraneans of the pontid variety, armenoids of capadocian affiliation)

GENERAL
Monday, January 31st, 2005, 12:15 AM
(more than 70% of the iberians are R1a and R1b)William Sidis ( a forgotten genius, consider by many the most intelligent man ever) call it the "red" race, the cro-magnon the true atlantid people, when atlantida was submerged some went to America killing almost all the natives there and some stayed in the peripherie of Atlantida that it was between north america and europe, so many typical can be found in Portugal, Spain, Ireland, I've read that they navigate a lot in mediterranean and all over the seas, maybe Plato heard of them by this way. Ah it seems that cro-magnon were all over europe, but he says that the indo-european, at a time when ocurred the thaw in a caucasian region, the "white" were set free from the natural barriers and invaded all of europe pushing them to the west, and with the collapse of Atlantida, the residual people could be found in the the atlantic western europe! He also says that caucasian absorved the more advanced cromagnon culture, he even says that nordic mithology like u know today was from cro magnon culture, for example the giants were the indo-european and the dwarfs the neandarthal! The iberian ancient language was consisted of runic symbols very similar to the nordic, many symbols look the same, what is very strange but makes some sense with this theory...
In all of this of course it should had been mixing in several regions at this time... like the giants that mingled with the gods! :D
Hitler thought that germans were the descends of atlantid but he was so very wrong hehe!!!
When I first heard of the Kennewick man I thought in all this, and in the similarities of his head with mine! :) I'm portuguese...
I've seen the pictures of the cro-magnon in this thread but it seems that the forehead is very low and curved, but in my case is straight and longer( not very long) like the kennewick man if I remember correctly!

GENERAL
Monday, January 31st, 2005, 12:34 AM
My mistake. I meant to say, Spain has the highest diversity of many of these genes. It does not currently have the highest frequency. My original bolded statement is correct: Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.

I am aware of the differences between Iberian Spaniards and Portuguese and racially mixed New World Hispanics. For typical Spaniards, I think of Pablo Picasso, Fernando Cortez, Gael Garcia Bernal, Javier Bardem, or even the people painted by El Greco. Are these people not representative of Spain? All of these people show at least some visible affinity with the Near East - and look quite different from Cromagnids, as it obvious at a glance at the facial structure. Such people are clearly different from Amerind-influenced types such as John Leguizamo, Manuel Noriega, and Jennifer Lopez (who also looks a bit Subsaharan).

Atlanto-med, my point about the Mesolithic is that it occurred after the postglacial warming (when Europe was more attractive to immigrants from elsewhere (the Near East). That is why I called it subsequent to the Neolithic, even if locally it was not in some cases.Picasso was a jew!

Edwin
Sunday, October 16th, 2005, 10:22 PM
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