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Northern Paladin
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 09:27 AM
What Happened to the Nordic Population of Ancient Iran?

Were they absorbed into a larger non-Nordic gene pool or did they simply migrate else where?

Odin Biggles
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 11:47 AM
I believe they co-exist alongside other strains as ive seen photos of Nordic Iranians.

Im no expert in this field though, thats just what i know.

Japetos
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 03:25 PM
I believe they co-exist alongside other strains as ive seen photos of Nordic Iranians.

Im no expert in this field though, thats just what i know.I believe that too.

AryanKrieger
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 05:18 PM
I believe that too.
Me too.

ScotchTape
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:13 PM
I believe they co-exist alongside other strains as ive seen photos of Nordic Iranians.

Im no expert in this field though, thats just what i know.


Can you post some of these pictures?

Odin Biggles
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:21 PM
Oh blimey, i know i saw evidence on this forum but i cant remember where it was.

Best to ask one of the Moderator or Anthropology chaps as they will know more.

Awar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 10:51 PM
I don't think there was any population that you'd instantly recognize as 'Nordic'.
The ancient Aryans weren't Scando-Nordid, but Corded ( Battle-Axe ), which
didn't look 'nordish'.

Here are a few reconstructions of skulls found in regions
from where the Satem Indo-European speaking peoples dispersed into Iran and India
( traced back by archaeology and confirmed by genetics ).

http://img6.imgspot.com/u/04/317/16/fartjan.jpg

ScotchTape
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 10:06 PM
I don't think there was any population that you'd instantly recognize as 'Nordic'.
The ancient Aryans weren't Scando-Nordid, but Corded ( Battle-Axe ), which
didn't look 'nordish'.

Here are a few reconstructions of skulls found in regions
from where the Satem Indo-European speaking peoples dispersed into Iran and India
( traced back by archaeology and confirmed by genetics ).

http://img6.imgspot.com/u/04/317/16/fartjan.jpg

Thats what I thought.

Awar
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Well, there's a very large percentage of Iranians who are metrically Nordic, very tall-stature,
but with a hooked nose, dark haired, olive-skinned etc.

Odin Biggles
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 12:08 AM
I stand corrected !.

Beren
Sunday, November 28th, 2004, 10:26 AM
4 years ago, in Northern Afghanistan, when we started searching out for the places with the highest lack of any educational infrastructure (which of course is quite easy) and at the same time with the greatest distance to the next educational institution (who would children walk 35km every morning?), we passed a valley admist the Hindukush, whose inhabitants really impressed me by their huge size. No male was smaller than 1,95, throughout the whole valley (which itself lies rather remote). Well, they were definitely not Nordic in the Scandinavian(European) sense but they really resembled them, except for their lack of blondism (only few were blond). Some of them had red hair, most were brownish and then there were also dark ones. Dark but not really black either. Those types can mostly be found in mountainous regions. For the Pakhtoons, Paktia would be the best place where to find "Nordic" Iranians, but also the Kunar region which borders Pakistan does have some of these types. The Pakhtoons of course are the most diverse group in the country, so one will get another impression when walking throughout Kandahar. The main reason for this is that Pakhtoonization did occur heavily since the reign of the "Afghan" kings; "at both sides of today's borders".

jugurtha
Sunday, November 28th, 2004, 10:47 AM
I don't think there was any population that you'd instantly recognize as 'Nordic'.
The ancient Aryans weren't Scando-Nordid, but Corded ( Battle-Axe ), which
didn't look 'nordish'.

Here are a few reconstructions of skulls found in regions
from where the Satem Indo-European speaking peoples dispersed into Iran and India
( traced back by archaeology and confirmed by genetics ).

http://img6.imgspot.com/u/04/317/16/fartjan.jpg


Hi AWAR,

you are one of the smartest and most educated on this forum.

I agree with you.

Väring
Sunday, November 28th, 2004, 12:04 PM
But did Iran really have a Nordic population? Bertil Lundman described the Aryans of Persia as mostly Pontid with a minor element of Nordid.

Shapur
Sunday, November 28th, 2004, 11:12 PM
Ah the discussion begin! :D
Did Iran have ever nordish people with blond hairs and blue eyes?
Defently NO, maybe some immigrants!
Did Iran have ever nordid people?
Defently NO, maybe some immigrants!
The only thing why the people speak the whole time about is that
Iranians are mostly Irano-Afghan"Corded" and Taurid.
The first racetype is very near/related to the Nordid racetype.
Check genetic studies and you will see, Iranians are more related to central Europeans and southeast Europeans then west/east Europeans are to central/southeast Europeans!

:P

Shapur
Sunday, November 28th, 2004, 11:14 PM
I don't think there was any population that you'd instantly recognize as 'Nordic'.
The ancient Aryans weren't Scando-Nordid, but Corded ( Battle-Axe ), which
didn't look 'nordish'.

Here are a few reconstructions of skulls found in regions
from where the Satem Indo-European speaking peoples dispersed into Iran and India
( traced back by archaeology and confirmed by genetics ).

http://img6.imgspot.com/u/04/317/16/fartjan.jpg

The first guy look like a typical Iranian, the second can also pass as Iranian.

Awar
Monday, November 29th, 2004, 03:16 AM
:scratch, how is that any different from anything I said?

Shapur
Monday, November 29th, 2004, 03:36 PM
:scratch, how is that any different from anything I said?

I wanted to add something! ;)

ScotchTape
Tuesday, November 30th, 2004, 04:22 AM
Is Halstatt Nordic depigmented Irano-Afghan or depigmented Nordindid?

Kel`Thuz
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 11:43 PM
Is Halstatt Nordic depigmented Irano-Afghan or depigmented Nordindid?

Rather a depigmented West-Med or Atlanto-Med with UP and Intermarine strains :)

Awar
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Rather a depigmented West-Med or Atlanto-Med with UP and Intermarine strains :)

:thumbsup

trebol
Monday, December 20th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Irano-Nordoid
Irano-Nordoids are average in size and strikingly different from the Alpinoids in proportions: the two can be said to be opposites of each other. Irano-Nordoids are very long-headed and their faces appear to be very long in both the upper and lower parts. They also have seemingly narrow noses, which is due to the small breadth, rather than the great length of the nose.

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/metrictypes/

Master-of-Swords
Monday, December 20th, 2004, 08:08 PM
Me too.
I will second that.:)

safrax
Friday, January 7th, 2005, 11:12 PM
What Happened to the Nordic Population of Ancient Iran?

Were they absorbed into a larger non-Nordic gene pool or did they simply migrate else where?
The did not migrate elsewhere. They survived!

Green/blue eyes an blondish/reddish hair are still frequently to be found under living Iranians as well as under Pashtuns, the very tall and very often blue eyed people of Nuristan, and other tribes and regions of Afghanistan speaking an Iranian language.

Under Parsi, the worshippers of the one true religion of Iran, what is definitely NOT the false idol known as 'islam', it is common to believe that the original Aryans had black hairs as well as blondish/reddish hairs. Following the holy scripts of the Aryans its clear that the Aryans were of northern as well as of southern origin. They show robust, fair complexed features as well as gracile and darker complexion.

There is no reason to believe that all of the ancient Germanians had blond hair, and the only real difference between Iran and Germany are the proportions. Under the Iranians the southern component dominates, and under the Germans the robust, fair complexed Northern. Nevertheless, my friend, a professor at the University of Theran, is almost 2 meters tall, has 'thick bones' and green eyes, a skull exactly like a northern German, and dark brown hairs - of course.

Axelrod
Tuesday, January 18th, 2005, 02:21 PM
One can not believe how many troll user identites can be present on a two page thread, whenever the Iranian subject comes up not much time passes before some new supposedly European members start talking about complex geographic areas, special Iranian mountain ranges and their exquisité Nordic population.

I think there is a Nordic influx in Iran in terms of pigmentation, as there is in mostly all northern parts of the middle east. probably a bit lower than southern European populations, such as Greece. But I am not quite sure if the Irano-Afghan type can alone be accepted as a pure tracer of Nordic ancestry. It might be argued if 6000 years (since the first i.e. invasions of the caucasoid west asia) is enough for such an evolution and periodical depigmentation or not. Ofcourse I might be wrong on this as I am just theorizing.

and for information the 195- 200 cm's tall scandinavian type is not a Nordic but rather a UP mixed trait, modern corded/halstatt male is usually between 180- 184 cm's most of the time.

oslonor
Sunday, September 3rd, 2006, 09:29 PM
There is no ethnic group called Iranian in Iran. Iranians just means all citizens of Iran.

Slide show on Persians and Azeri Turks and afghans.

Persians %20 Iran
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116581341/show/

Azeri Turks %40 Iran
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116588250/show/

Afghan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116574438/show/

More on Persians and Hollywood
http://oslonor.blogspot.com/

hedon
Monday, September 4th, 2006, 12:54 AM
C.S. Coon:
"We have seen that the Scythians and Sarmatians, although they undoubtedly included in their ranks many individuals of different political affiliations, formed nevertheless a quite constant principal racial type, which was essentially Iranian and a form of Nordic. In its characteristic low vault, as in other dimensions, it specifically resembled the earlier eastern European and central Asiatic Nordic form. It was essentially a member of the racial cluster associated with the spread of Satem Indo-European speech in both eastern Europe and Asia"


The striking property of ancient iranians is that they are significantly low vaulted which does not inspire any relation with the high vaulted irano-afgan or scandonordid types.

Pro-Alpine
Monday, September 4th, 2006, 12:58 AM
Was there ever one?

oslonor
Saturday, September 9th, 2006, 07:28 AM
Ancient Persians:

Parthians Faces Real : Eshgabad Museum. Turkeminsitan - Hellenstic Statue
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/148/parthianfacereal6ve.jpg

oslonor
Saturday, September 9th, 2006, 07:39 AM
Below i type a pessage from Kappers book--- A. C. U., The Anthropology of the Near East from Dr. Research done by Dr Gordon T. Bowles, who measured some 6000 adult males in the country running between eastern Afghanistan and Burma, his series of 40 Afghanis from the Jillalabad plain, 40 Afridis, 42 Mohmands, and 40 Khattak and Bangash. With the addition of 6 Gilzais, this makes a total series of 168 Pushtu speakers from Afghanistan. Published data from this region may be found in the Ethnographic Survey of India, Calcutta, 1909. (See Anonymous, Anthropometric Data from Baluchistan.)

“These Afghans and Pathans are in most respects as similar to the Persians as they are to each other. The Afghans, however, are shorter than the Pathans, since the former have a mean stature of 163 cm. and the latter of 170 cm. The body build of both people is slight to intermediate. A relative sitting height of 52.6 found among Afghanis is close to that of Europeans, while most of the Pathans fall a point lower. The heads of these people range in length from 188 to 192 mm. by tribes, and in breadth from 141 to 145 mm. The cephalic indices of the Afghanis and Pathans vary between tribal means of 72 and 75; except for the Khattak and Bangash, who live in proximity to the Baluchis, and who have a mean of 77. The vault height of all of these peoples is quite low, with means of 121 to 123 mm. Faces are usually long, reaching a maximum mean of 129 mm. among the Afridis, and are at the same time only moderately narrow, with bizygomatic means of 135 to 137 mm. Foreheads and jaws are of moderate dimensions; 104 mm. is the usual mean for the minimum frontal, and 103 mm. for the bigonial.

In the total face height and the three facial breadths, these Pathan speakers cannot be distinguished from Nordics. The upper face height, however, serves as a means of differentiation, since it is extremely long; and the noses, at the same time, reach the extreme length of 61 mm. Their mean facial index of 94 and upper facial index of 56 place these people in an extremely long- and narrow-faced category, while the nasal index of 61 confirms their extreme leptorrhiny.

If one compares these measurements with those from the Yemen on the one hand and from the eastern provinces of Norway on the other, one sees that the Afghanis are much closer to the Nordic mean than to that of the normal Mediterraneans. The head dimensions of the Afghans and Pathans are slightly smaller than those of Nordics, and the vault height is lower,24 but the facial dimensions are essentially similar, except that the upper face and nose heights of the Afghans and Pathans are greater.

The Afghans and Pathans, like the Persians, are usually brunet, and at the same time show a persistent minority of blondism, which in this case reflects Nordic admixture. They are heavy-bearded, and possess heavy body hair. Their facial features show a maximum of bony relief, and, on the whole, their facial skeletons seem much heavier and much more strongly marked than those of the more delicate Arabian Mediterraneans. They possess, in common with the Arabian Mediterranean group, a sharpness in definition of feature which stands in contrast to the coarser lineaments of the average Mesopotamian countenance.


http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9672/afghanpashtooneuro2pg.jpg

pouladvand
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 08:41 PM
What Happened to the Nordic Population of Ancient Iran?




Nothing. Mitra Taheri. News anchor in Europe. Pure Persian.

Pro-Alpine
Wednesday, October 11th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Nothing. Mitra Taheri. News anchor in Europe. Pure Persian.

Hardly anythig Nordid about here, looks like an Alpinized Iranid, probably from northern Iran where the avrage inhabitant is quite pale.

hedon
Thursday, October 12th, 2006, 09:59 PM
I think, the main concern about iranians and iranoafgan type would be that, how do we distinguish the iranoafgan and dinaric contributions? Dinaroid would be of any mediterranean origin but we have to ask ourselves a question when we classify: is it the dinaric or iranoafgan mixture that we happen to see? I dont think that, clear distinction between iranoafgan and dinaric contribution can be made. Since we assume that slavic balkanoids are a blend of iranians and local alpines, i dont think that it is valid to classify any individual as a dinaric blend without knowing exact geographical location of the individual.
This, in my opinion, explains what happened, the perspective is much bigger than we see.
kind regards

Kel`Thuz
Thursday, October 19th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Since we assume that slavic balkanoids are a blend of iranians and local alpines

in no way! Slavic balkanoids are in fact paleolithic aboriginal population, which was already Taurid, maybe influenced by Bronze Age tin-prospectors later on.

Wolfssangel
Wednesday, October 25th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Many Aryans left Northern Mesopotamia and Ancient Iran. They migrated to Southern Russia, northwestern and northeastern Asia. They changed Scythians and Cimmerians. They spoke ancient Iranian-speaking. Scythians and Cimmerians were real Aryan brothers and sisters. When they migrated in Europe. Most Scythians migrated in Northern Europe. Most Cimmerians migrated in western and southern Europe. Cimmerians changed Celts. Scythians with Celts too. But historians said, 'the language of the Cimmerians could have been a "missing link" between Thracian and Iranian.' Scythians changed Germanic. But, Scythians never used 'Germanic'. Because the Romans called them 'Germani'. Germani is very Latin. Germani means "genuine". They may be real Scythians. Old Persian (Aryan) words is almost same as Anglo-Saxon words.

Look at website: www.ensignmessage.com/archives/ancestors.html (http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/ancestors.html)

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomerian

Kurtz
Wednesday, October 25th, 2006, 11:49 PM
Nothing. Mitra Taheri. News anchor in Europe. Pure Persian.

Her French name is Melissa Theuriau. It's written on Wikipedia that she's from Persian descent, but do you have another source?

http://www.melissa-theuriau.fr/images/MelissaTheuriau-2006-Vuarnet2.jpg

She's awesome BTW :thumbup

Oswiu
Thursday, October 26th, 2006, 02:19 AM
Many Aryans left Northern Mesopotamia and Ancient Iran. They migrated to Southern Russia, northwestern and northeastern Asia. They changed Scythians and Cimmerians. They spoke ancient Iranian-speaking. Scythians and Cimmerians were real Aryan brothers and sisters. When they migrated in Europe. Most Scythians migrated in Northern Europe. Most Cimmerians migrated in western and southern Europe. Cimmerians changed Celts. Scythians with Celts too. But historians said, 'the language of the Cimmerians could have been a "missing link" between Thracian and Iranian.' Scythians changed Germanic. But, Scythians never used 'Germanic'. Because the Romans called them 'Germani'. Germani is very Latin. Germani means "genuine". They may be real Scythians. Old Persian (Aryan) words is almost same as Anglo-Saxon words.

Look at website: www.ensignmessage.com/archives/ancestors.html (http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/ancestors.html)

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomerian
Absolute nonsense, I'm afraid! :shrug:)

Wolfssangel
Thursday, October 26th, 2006, 01:08 PM
Absolute nonsense, I'm afraid! :shrug:)

Why do you said nonsense? Where the Celtic and Germanic born from? They never used 'Germani'!! Because Germani is very Latin. I believe that Ancient Aryans were born in South Russia and they have been migrated in Northern Mesopotamia, Iran, Egypt, Northern Syria, Phoenenia, Northwestern Asia and northeastern Asia. Later Scythians migrated to Europe! Aryans gave them new homes and new names!

Please you must learn at white history's website: www.white-history.com (http://www.white-history.com). It's called 'March of Titans'.

pouladvand
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 08:38 PM
What Happened to the Nordic Population of Ancient Iran? Nothing . look at this cluster. the phenotype changed due to environmental factors such as wheather. the genotype has changed very little as you CAN SEE:





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cavallisforzageneclusters.jpg

oslonor
Friday, November 24th, 2006, 06:18 AM
Ethnic groups in Iran and Afghanistan

Updated Slide show on Persians and Azeri Turks and afghans.

Persians %10-%20 Iran
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116581341/show/

Azeri Turks %40 Iran
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116588250/show/

Afghans
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20363431@N00/sets/72057594116574438/show/

More on Persians and Hollywood
http://oslonor.blogspot.com/

Skyht
Friday, November 24th, 2006, 07:08 PM
@oslonor

Your pictures have still not improved in my opinion, rather few useful pictures.

oslonor
Friday, November 24th, 2006, 11:19 PM
@oslonor

Your pictures have still not improved in my opinion, rather few useful pictures.


It is not clear what you are talking about. Those people are alive and that is the way they look. Are you denying that there are ethnic groups in Iran?

Desert Fox
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 11:07 PM
The did not migrate elsewhere. They survived!
Green/blue eyes an blondish/reddish hair are still frequently to be found under living Iranians as well as under Pashtuns, the very tall and very often blue eyed people of Nuristan, and other tribes and regions of Afghanistan speaking an Iranian language.
Under Parsi, the worshippers of the one true religion of Iran, what is definitely NOT the false idol known as 'islam', it is common to believe that the original Aryans had black hairs as well as blondish/reddish hairs. Following the holy scripts of the Aryans its clear that the Aryans were of northern as well as of southern origin. They show robust, fair complexed features as well as gracile and darker complexion.
There is no reason to believe that all of the ancient Germanians had blond hair, and the only real difference between Iran and Germany are the proportions. Under the Iranians the southern component dominates, and under the Germans the robust, fair complexed Northern. Nevertheless, my friend, a professor at the University of Theran, is almost 2 meters tall, has 'thick bones' and green eyes, a skull exactly like a northern German, and dark brown hairs - of course.

Safrax. sorry that I messed up my reply to you in regards to the Ethnology of some modern Iranians....
Could you please forward some sources, I have been very interested in the
racial/ethnic components of Iran for a long time.
Thank you in advance!

Mesopotamian
Monday, February 12th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Oslonor in all respect , those percentages you give are either estimations or purely guesses. No there is not a 20% persian minority , rather 35%. They live mostly around the caspian sea , north-western and south-western iran.

Suebideutsch
Monday, January 30th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Rather a depigmented West-Med or Atlanto-Med with UP and Intermarine strains :)

You gotta study a little bit more of physical antropology. Nordics are very different when compared to atlanto meds. Find me an atlanto med wich is metrically closer than the irano afghan. Irano afghan are described as nordics by coon since they were taller and high skulled,

Granraude
Tuesday, January 31st, 2012, 10:53 AM
When did Iran become a nordic country? =P

celticviking
Wednesday, February 1st, 2012, 03:59 PM
I think they got confused between hair colour, location, Nordic race , Nordid anthropology and Aryan, it always happens.


Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

“The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance.”
[Coon (1939) 484.]

The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned;
Umar, described the Prophet thus:

“his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red“. [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

Most authorities on the issue appear to prefer that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

“Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair.”
[von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet’s beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as “light,” “reddish,” or “fair,” but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as “blonde.” [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as “Aisha the Blonde.” [Günther (1930) 168.]

Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance. [Günther (1930) 163.]

Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi’ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1292592/pg1


Nordic Arabs by Karl Earlson

There appears to have been a blond, racially Nordic element, amongst the leadership of the Arabic peoples, from the very earliest times. Thus, as the distinguished Harvard anthropologist Carleton S. Coon has noted, when referring to the population of the Yemen plateau:

"The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the population. There may perhaps have been a Nordic strain associated with the holy families who entered this region from the Hejaz in early post-Islamic times." [Coon (1939) 408-409.]

Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

"The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance; others of them look like Mekkan aristocrats in Arabia." [Coon (1939) 484.]

The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; a freedman, by the name of Umar, described the Prophet thus:

"his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red". [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

Most authorities on the issue appear to agree that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

"Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair." [von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as "light," "reddish," or "fair," but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as "blonde." [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as "Aisha the Blonde." [Günther (1930) 168.]

Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance — possibly in imitation and pursuance of a fair-haired, Nordic ideal. [Günther (1930) 163.]

Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi'ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.] However, it was bitterly resented by some Muslims, that the physical features which characterised a true descendant of Muhammad, were steadily being lost, due to admixture with darker races. Thus, as the Syrian poet Abu'l-Ala (AD 973-1057), remarked in a letter:

"We often see a man of mark who has in his house women of high degree setting above them a girl in a striped gown purchased for a few coins and so we may see a man whose grandfather on the father's side is a fair-haired descendant of Ali while his maternal grandfather is a black idolator." [Lewis (1990) 89.]

It would also appear that many of the numerous and diverse rulers of Moorish Spain, were racially Nordic; the Spanish historian Enrique Sordo, informs us that:

"Most of the caliphs were fair or ginger-haired with blue eyes, which seems to show a preponderance of Berber or Germanic blood. As they were extremely proud of their origin, some of them dyed their hair black, as if to affirm their Arab descent." [Sordo (1962) 24.]

This trend towards blondism began with the very first independent Muslim ruler of the Iberian Peninsula. Abd al-Rahman I (AD 756-788), the founder of the Cordoban Emirate, was a Syrian from the Damascus region, and belonged to the imperial Umayyad family: he was a grandson of Caliph Hisham (AD 724-743). His mother was a Berber slave-girl, and his father was the Syrio-Arab Umayyad, Muawiya. He is said to have been a "colossal red-haired man". [Grant (1981) 90; Sordo (1962) 23.]

In 1232, Muhammad b. Yusuf b. Nasr from Banu 'l-Ahmar, made himself the Sultan of the kingdom of Granada, a feat which he achieved by consolidating several Muslim petty kingdoms in southern Spain. Muhammad I was known as Ibn al Ahmar (son of the red), because of his red hair; he was the founder of the Nasrid dynasty, and ruled from 1232 to 1273. [Sordo (1962) 120; Vollers (1910) 87.]

This trait appears to have continued, even into later periods. Abu 'l-Hadjdjadj Yusuf I, the Nasrid Sultan of Granada from 1333-1354, has been described in the following terms:

"He was of noble bearing and was endowed with extraordinary physical strength and good looks. His skin was too pale however, and, according to Arab historians, he increased his grave and majestic appearance by growing a beard which he dyed very black." [Sordo (1962) 120-121.]

Ultimately, Moorish Spain ended as it had begun: with a fair-haired ruler. Muhammad XII [Boabdil], was the last Sultan of Granada (AD 1482-1483, 1487-1492); Enrique Sordo depicts him thus:

"Among the paintings in the gallery of the Generalife Palace hangs Boabdil's portrait. In it his countenance is kindly, handsome and melancholy, his complexion rubicund and his hair blond." [Sordo (1962) 124.]

Islamic Egypt also possessed several Nordic rulers of significance. Al-Nasir Yusuf Salah al-Din [Saladin] (AD 1171-1193), founded the Ayyubid Dynasty (AD 1171-1254), when he was invested with the governance of Egypt and Syria. He was of Kurdish ancestry, and his contemporaries stated that he was tall, handsome, fair-skinned and light-eyed. [Fossier (1968) 315; Günther (1927) 151; Weyl (1967) 41.] Robert Gayre of Gayre informs us that:

"Salah-ed-din and many of his followers had Kurdish and northern blood which accounted for their lighter colouring..." [Gayre of Gayre (1972) 97.]

Al-Nasir al-Hasan, who was Sultan from 1347-1351, and then from 1354-1361, was one of the last rulers of the Turkic Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, which ruled Egypt from 1250-1390. According to the Medieval chronicalist Ibn Iyas, he had a blond beard and dull-blue eyes. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Sultan Al-Nasir Faraj (AD 1399-1412), was the son of Al-Zahir Barquq [Burji] (AD 1382-1389, 1390-1399), the first of the Burji Mamluk rulers; the Dynasty reigned from 1390 to 1517, and was mostly of Circassian descent. Ibn Iyas stated that he was blond-bearded; he also noted that both Al-Nasir al-Hasan and Al-Nasir Faraj, possessed what he described as "Arab faces," which meant that they had long, noble countenances. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Ibn Iyas also observed that Sultan Al-Mansur Qalaun (AD 1279-1290), of the Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, had fair hair and a fair complexion. [Vollers (1910) 91.]

During the period of Ottoman rule, Nordic racial elements once again achieved a position of ascendency in the Islamic world. Orhan (AD 1324-1362), the son of Osman I (AD 1280-1324), who was the founder of Ottoman rule in Anatolia, was the first of that dynasty to use the title "Sultan." He is described as being very tall, broad-shouldered, fair-skinned, light-eyed and blond-haired. The German physical anthropologist Professor Hans F. K. Günther, considers him to have been predominantly Nordic in type. [Günther (1934) 189-190.]

Mehmed II (AD 1451-1481), known as the Conqueror, was the Ottoman Sultan that ended the Byzantine Empire, and who occupied the city of Constantinople, converting it into Istanbul. A contemporary miniature of Mehmed, painted by the artist Sinan Bey, depicts him as a light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed man. [Reader's Digest Association (1974) 127.]

Ottoman rule over North Africa — Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis — was extended and consolidated by the brothers Aruj and Kheir-ed-Din Barbarossa. The name Barbarossa stems from the Italian word for "Redbeard," and the brothers acquired this surname because of their ginger hair. [Baltzer (1934) 211.] Kheir-ed-Din (d. 1546), was appointed Regent of Algiers in 1530, and his reign was largely a success. [Mitchell (1976) 137.] Hans F. K. Günther refers to him as:

"the Viking-like Khair-ed-din Barbarossa, the founder of Osman [Ottoman] rule in North Africa, the red-bearded son of a Greek from Lesbos." [Günther (1927) 173.]

The link given below, leads to a web page which contains depictions of every one of the Ottoman Sultans. It is interesting to observe how many have reddish hair, light eyes, or a fair complexion.


http://almashriq.hiof.no/turkey/900/...humbnails.html

We may also note that the Algerian national hero Emir Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (AD 1807-1883), who fought the French attempts to occupy his country in the 1830s and 1840s, appears to have been blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129-130.]

The racial trends of the Islamic past have continued into the present era; this has been demonstrated by the American author Nathaniel Weyl, who noted the relevant facts in the following manner:

"As Gayre cogently observes, there is a general correlation between blondism and Caucasoid features, on the one hand, and social status and leadership, on the other. This is by no means a recent development nor is it a reflection of the superior prestige and power which Nordics and other blond peoples have come to enjoy in the modern world....

As for the present leadership of the Arab world, Henric von Schwerin has pointed out the extent to which it tends towards blondness and the Nordic type.

The Christian minorities throughout the area are, as Dr. Gayre has observed, almost invariably superior in status, intelligence and ability to the Moslems, and are at the same time markedly blonder and more definitely Caucasoid in features. Moreover, the most vigorous, resourceful and progressive nations in the region — Lebanon and Jordan in particular — are also those with the largest Christian minorities and the greatest visible admixture of Nordic genes." [Weyl (1967) 28-29.]

The Nordic element in the Islamic world continues to play an important role — this is demonstrated by the fact that many of the leading statesmen in the recent history of the Middle East (particularly those who have organised the causes for national liberation and independence), have been predominantly Nordic in type: for instance, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), the founder of modern Turkey. During the First World War, he fought the Allies at Gallipoli, and after the Armistice in 1918, he prevented a European conquest of Anatolia. After deposing the Ottoman Sultan, he declared himself President of Turkey (1923-1938), and initiated a rapid and thorough process of modernisation and secularisation, which largely succeeded in westernising the Turkish Republic. He was blond-haired and blue-eyed — features which he seems to have inherited from his Albanian mother. As a result of this, Henric von Schwerin has stated that Atatürk:

"must be characterised as predominantly Nordic..." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

Haj Amin al-Husseini (d. 1974), the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was one of the most important individuals in the recent history of the Middle East: he was, for a long period of time, the foremost leader of the movement for Palestinian liberation, as well as being the President of the World Muslim Congress. During his lifetime he was renowned not only for his political activities, but also because his beard was reddish-blond and his eyes were blue. The Swedish authoress Karin Johnsson compared the Grand Mufti to Saladin, and Henric von Schwerin considered him to be:

"one of the most pronounced Nordic types among renowned Muslims of today." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Amongst the leadership of the Algerian rebellion against France, Ferhat Abbas (b. 1899), the first President of the GPRA, from 1958-1961, had green-grey eyes. [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Another high official in the FLN, Ahmed Boumendjel, Head of the GPRA delegation at the negotiations in Mélun in 1960, was fair, tall and well-built. It was said that his features were almost like those of a Frenchman. [von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Colonel Houari Boumédienne [Muhammad Boukharouba] (1925-1978), was the leader of the ALN, and after independence from France was granted in 1962, he became the President of Algeria (1965-1978). He was known as "the Swede," because of his fair hair; he is described as having:

"wispy, sandy hair, a straggly, reddish mustache, and small grey-blue eyes." [von Schwerin (1964) 130.]

Habib Bourguiba (b. 1902), was a leading figure in the struggle for Tunisian independance from French rule, and in 1934 he founded the Neo-Destour Party, as a means towards this end. After independence in 1956, he became the first President of Tunisia (1956-1987); he was blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] In Syria, Sultan Atrash, the leader of the Druse rebellion against France during the 1920s, had a very fair skin and clear blue eyes. [Günther (1930) 152; von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128-129.] Emir Adil Arslan, another important figure of the rebellion, had bluish-green eyes and strongly Nordic features. [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Muhammad Idris al-Sanusi [Idris I] (1889-1983), Emir of Cyrenaica, and King of Libya (1951-1969), was said to have "calm blue eyes". [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] General Nuri-es-Said (1888-1958), the Iraqi premier for many years, was equally blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1964) 128.] Finally, we should note that Muhammad Ayub Khan (1907-1974), the President of Pakistan (1958-1969), was tall, fair-complexioned and grey-eyed. It was said by certain French journalists that:

"to judge from his appearance and manners, he could well be taken for a senior British officer..." [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]




http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=1548

(There is already a 14 page thread about this, but it is closed.
There may be heaps of other threads about this topic too. )

Catterick
Tuesday, April 12th, 2016, 01:21 PM
The Iranians up on the Plateau of Iran are close to Nordics but not the same, in particular the 'classic' Nordic type has a broader vault than its eastern relatives like the Corded and whatever you want to call the Iranian type proper. Any depigmented strain will be from further north around the Black Sea, of course.

Sigebrond
Wednesday, April 13th, 2016, 08:45 PM
There was none, Nordic people are from Scandinavia or more broadly speaking Northern Europe, hence the name. Whatever Iranian tribes there were (other than those that mixed with Arabs to make "modern Iranians") dispersed across Eastern Europe in Scythian/Sarmatian territory. Iranians are not European now by a long shot as I am sure most of us accept, but they were never Scandinavian either as much as the ethno-cultural sphere we now identify as Europe was practically twice the size it is now in ancient times (including the peoples and cultures of Iran and Iraq as well as the Afrio-Asiatic cultures of Egypt, Babylonia/Assyria and Phoenicia if you consider those to be originally European in all aspects other than having a non-Indo-European language)

I am getting tired of the need to elevate middle eastern culture and achievements and people as originally "Nordic", based on no evidence but only on the occasional fair traits cropping up from time to time, which to anyone who knows anything about broadly defined phenotypes knows never were exclusive to Scandinavia or Northern Europeans. I am quick to point out Egypt was essentially "white"/European originally and that all evidence points towards this, but I would never consider claiming they were at any point "Nordic"

Catterick
Wednesday, April 13th, 2016, 10:14 PM
Well, here the word Nordic refers to a racial type of classic physical anthropology, not precisely to the Scandinavian people. Its part of the famous three-way typology used by Ripley and Grant that you see popularised in many older encyclopedias, but was simplified and almost ignored eastern Europe. Coon pretty much subsumed the Nordics into the Mediterranean race, as a depigmented white variant close to the Cordeds and the Irano-Afghans. Angel lumped the western Nordics together with the more eastern Cordeds and Plateau Iranians as his Nordic-Iranian grouping which was equivalent to Alpines and true Meds and also separate from his 'Basic Whites' (=Coon's UP survivors, sort of).

Works by Madison Grant, Carleton Coon, Larry Angel and others are all easily found online if you wish to look it up. :)

Sigebrond
Wednesday, April 13th, 2016, 11:05 PM
Nordic relates to the North though, without relation to geography it means nothing. Subjective and decades-old anthropological terms mean just as little, genetic ones don't, and there is no genetic evidence linking Iranians to Northern Europe in any way. I am tired of the blanket application of the "Nordic" label, along with any other pan-Europeanist tendencies, such as obsession with the term "Aryan", it cheapens the authentic identity and ancestry of the tribe it actually relates to, or should relate to if used correctly