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Hellenic Eagle
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 12:37 AM
This is not a tricky question. I am just interested in listening what is the first thing that comes to your mind. Depending on what you know, or even what you assume about Ancient Greek Civilisation and Philosophy.

I will enable multiple choice for the undecided students

Jack
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 02:02 AM
Hellenic.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 03:16 AM
Hellenic...what else? :huh

Awar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 03:39 AM
Hellenic, of course.

For the real, historical Aryan civilization, look at the Scythians, and the civilization
of India which arose from the clash between the Aryans and the local Dravidians and others.

It's not 'mediterranean', because there were more different civs in the med. area than there were in the entire rest of the world.

An essential middle-eastern civ. is ancient Persia. ( not including the oldest civilizations ( neolithic agr; sumerian, assyrian ) which appeared in that area, and which are the precursors to everything else.

old Balkan civs are more in the vein of Illyrian, Thracian, Phrygian etc. ( proto-Hellenic ), as the Hellenic civilization was basically what became after the Balkan tribes encountered the Pelasgians. Not much more advanced than that of the Celtic, Slavic, Germanic, Scythian/Aryan peoples.

Egypt is something else.

Jack
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 04:33 AM
An essential middle-eastern civ. is ancient Persia. ( not including the oldest civilizations ( neolithic agr; sumerian, assyrian ) which appeared in that area, and which are the precursors to everything else.

Uh, Persia was an Aryan empire, not semitic.

Awar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 04:46 AM
Uh, Persia was an Aryan empire, not semitic.

It was heavily influenced by older Semitic civilizations like the Assyrian.
I labeled it as 'essential middle-eastern' because it lasted the longest,
it combined the elements of the first world civilizations of the area with
the elements of nomadic peoples who also lived in the area ( Cimmerians ),
and finally, it's influence shines through some aspects of the Islamic civilization.

The Sumerians were neither Semitic nor 'Aryan'.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 04:54 AM
It was heavily influenced by older Semitic civilizations like the Assyrian.
I labeled it as 'essential middle-eastern' because it lasted the longest,
it combined the elements of the first world civilizations of the area with
the elements of nomadic peoples who also lived in the area ( Cimmerians ),
and finally, it's influence shines through some aspects of the Islamic civilization.

The Sumerians were neither Semitic nor 'Aryan'.

I suspect the Assyrians probably didnt have Semitic racial origins, although they used Semitic languages later.

Awar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 05:05 AM
Yeah, I read a bit about the non-semitic origin of Assyrians, but
I thought it's not really important for this discussion.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Yeah, I read a bit about the non-semitic origin of Assyrians, but
I thought it's not really important for this discussion.

But in a way I think it is, because it shows how languages can be adopted without changing ethnicity. It seems that Greek was just one language in early Greece which caught on late and without a population replacement, like Semitic languages arrived in Assyria.

Mainland Greek civilisation is continuous from the Bronze Age, but not everyone in Bronze Age Greece was Greek at this early time. Its because of this reason that the origin of Greek civilisation was continuous with that in Anatolia and should be considered as Agean and more generally as a part of the Eastern Mediterranean, and the closest options in the poll are Mediterranean and Essentially Mediterranean.

Awar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Yes, but only in that period :)
Essentially mediterranean would mean that there's some
serious similarity goin' on between all the civilizations in the mediterranean
in all the eras. I just don't think there's such a strong connection between
the civs of Iberria/Spain, Carthago, the Levant, the Arabs, ancient and Islamic Egypt,
Aegean, Balkans, Apenines ( Etruscan, Roman and renneisance ) etc. etc.

So, in a word, no, I don't think there's such a thing as one all-encompassing med civilization. :)

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 07:21 AM
Yes, but only in that period :)

This time period is the origins of urban civilisation in Greece, so its the most important in defining Greece as a civilisation.


Essentially mediterranean would mean that there's some
serious similarity goin' on between all the civilizations in the mediterranean
in all the eras. I just don't think there's such a strong connection between
the civs of Iberria/Spain, Carthago, the Levant, the Arabs, ancient and Islamic Egypt, Aegean, Balkans, Apenines ( Etruscan, Roman and renneisance ) etc. etc.

There isnt one origin for Mediterranean civilisation, so I wouldn't talk about one Mediterranean culture, but Mediterranean does describe sevreal civilisations that have historical interactions. And many of those cultures which you mentioned share a traditional dependence on seasonal, Mediterranean rainfall to support their civilisations (though this doesn't apply to places like Arabia, Egypt or Mesopotamia) so theres a pattern of native cultural evolution through most of the Mediterranean.


So, in a word, no, I don't think there's such a thing as one all-encompassing med civilization. :)

But because of the historical ties between neighbouring civilisations in the Mediterranean, they can be described as being Mediterranean civilisations.

ogenoct
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 12:29 PM
Its because of this reason that the origin of Greek civilisation was continuous with that in Anatolia and should be considered as Agean and more generally as a part of the Eastern Mediterranean
So one could argue that modern Turkey is - in some way - a continuation of Greek civilization?

Constantin

Aristotle
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM
EYTYXEITE!
Hellenic. It says all.
Kindest Regards!

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 04:46 PM
So one could argue that modern Turkey is - in some way - a continuation of Greek civilization?

Constantin

Istanbul is a Greek city and the people of the Ottoman capital Istanbul are of Greek descent. The name of Istanbul comes from Constantinople through Stambul and the Ottoman Empire was the heir of the Eastern Roman Empire and of the old Greek east, but to me modern Turkey is a revolt against their Classical and Ottoman heritage.

Japetos
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 05:20 PM
It was a perfect multi-subracial synthesis.
I did not vote.

Hellenic Eagle
Wednesday, November 10th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Japetos, come on, why didnt you vote?

I put the last option especially for you, let me remind you of this option, in the hope that you will reconsider and honour my worthy poll: "I would have voted for a previous option, if I was not an ignorant fool.. "

ogenoct
Sunday, November 14th, 2004, 09:16 PM
modern Turkey is a revolt against their Classical and Ottoman heritage.
The same could be said about modern Greece (sans the Ottoman heritage, of course).

Constantin

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 15th, 2004, 07:54 AM
The same could be said about modern Greece (sans the Ottoman heritage, of course).

Constantin

Well State Nationalism is a corruption the same as Communism and Liberalism, you know we both agree on that. But because the Turkish Ottomans were a caste not an ethnic majority, Turkicisation was the more drastic of the two.

Γνώθι σεαυτόν
Wednesday, August 31st, 2005, 11:15 PM
Before I start to vote, what do you consider "Ancient Greek" ?
As far as I read most people prefer "hellenic", but as you also gave "Greek" as a possible answer I assume you talk about "hellenistic", but the hellenistic period started with Alexander the Great, if you want with his father Phillip of Macedonia.

But before this period you have also the classical one and the archaic one (and even before that the dark ages), so which one ? :D

Ardito
Thursday, November 25th, 2010, 04:52 AM
Just plain Aryan. Greek philosophy is, essentially, an intellectualised version of Vedic religion, with the metaphor and intuitive understanding replaced by rational argument, but communicating the same message.

Werwolfthron
Tuesday, February 1st, 2011, 03:10 AM
I think most people think of Classical/Periclean Athens when you say Ancient Greece so I would just say Athenian. The other city-states were quite different. I think Sparta could even be considered a separate civilization itself of sorts. The Hellenic period began with Alexander the Great and I would say it ended when the Roman/Byzantines adopted Christianity as a state religion.

Ardito
Tuesday, February 1st, 2011, 03:24 AM
The other city-states were quite different.

Most of them used a democratic constitution similar to that of Athens, if I recall right.


I think most people think of Classical/Periclean Athens when you say Ancient Greece so I would just say Athenian. The other city-states were quite different. I think Sparta could even be considered a separate civilization itself of sorts.

Sparta had a very different political constitution, but it was in the same close cultural grouping. They worshiped the same gods, spoke the same language, conducted war very similarly, etc. They were far too close to call truly different civilisations.



The Hellenic period began with Alexander the Great and I would say it ended when the Roman/Byzantines adopted Christianity as a state religion.

No. "Hellenic" just means "Greek". The Hellenistic period, the expansion of Greek culture to dominate the eastern Mediterranean, did, however, begin with Alexander. I'd say the expansion of Christianity into the Levant and north Africa was also an expression of Hellenism, Christianity being an essentially Greco-Roman religion.