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Siegfried
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 02:04 PM
Today, Dutch comedian and film maker Theo van Gogh has been murdered in Amsterdam. The killer shot and stabbed him repeatedly and left a letter behind with Islamic texts. Most likely the murder has been motivated by Van Gogh's criticism of Islam. The police has already arrested a suspect of Moroccan descent. One police officer and an innocent bystander were wounded as well.
First Fortuyn, now Van Gogh. My country is going down the drain. :(

Prussian
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 02:27 PM
Indeed a very sad thing to occur, it seems that in the times like these when individuals have the courage to be outspoken about the clear & obvious there will be loses among the few, however the hope lays in the fact that such individuals keep speaking out until the message is gradually heard on a larger scale thus giving birth to more just like ourselves, finally in this hope we see the seeds of fruitation, all we have to do is be persistent and tend to the crop, the goal? To make the seed grow into a grow into a strong oak.

Vetinari
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 03:07 PM
Today, Dutch comedian and film maker Theo van Gogh has been murdered in Amsterdam. The killer shot and stabbed him repeatedly and left a letter behind with Islamic texts. Most likely the murder has been motivated by Van Gogh's criticism of Islam. The police has already arrested a suspect of Moroccan descent. One police officer and an innocent bystander were wounded as well.
First Fortuyn, now Van Gogh. My country is going down the drain. :(

More news links on this murder:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041102/D863NRS80.html

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/a/2004/11/02/international0641EST0472.DTL

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3705691

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/02/udutch.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/11/02/ixportaltop.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3974179.stm

anti-climacus
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 03:25 AM
Absolutely despicable. Does the strong Jewish community in Amsterdam have problems with these extremists?

Awar
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 03:33 AM
Let's just hope this will alert the public of the growing Islamic threat.

Strengthandhonour
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 04:08 AM
Unnaceptable. Situation has grown so horrible in Europe, that not even native citizens of their own nations, can express their opinions without being harassed by a bunch of foreigners....

Tryggvi
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 09:54 AM
Today, Dutch comedian and film maker Theo van Gogh has been murdered in Amsterdam. The killer shot and stabbed him repeatedly and left a letter behind with Islamic texts. Most likely the murder has been motivated by Van Gogh's criticism of Islam. The police has already arrested a suspect of Moroccan descent. One police officer and an innocent bystander were wounded as well.
First Fortuyn, now Van Gogh. My country is going down the drain. :( Did you see Van Gogh's movie about Pim Fortyn? What was your impression? Is it worth to be watched?

Oskorei
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 12:38 PM
Apparently his throat was slit, halal-style. Many Islamic websites have also gone offline after the many approving comments that other Muslims posted after the murder. Apparently the webmasters didnt want ordinary Dutch to be able to read what goes on in the sick minds of their new "countrymen"...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3980371.stm

Siegfried
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Did you see Van Gogh's movie about Pim Fortyn? What was your impression? Is it worth to be watched?

I haven't seen it yet, but I intend to. The official premiere isn't until December though - and then only on the internet. It will be another two months before it will be in Dutch cinemas.
If you can read Dutch or have a translation program, here (http://www.telegraaf.nl/i-mail/12235541/Fortuyn-film_Van_Gogh_in_premi%E8re_op_internet. html)'s a source.



Does the strong Jewish community in Amsterdam have problems with these extremists?

Yes, there are occassional problems.



Let's just hope this will alert the public of the growing Islamic threat.

I just read in Trouw (a Dutch newspaper) that the killer may have been part of a fundamentalist Islamic network. It turns out Dutch intelligence services had been monitoring this guy for some time now.

Tryggvi
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 04:54 PM
I haven't seen it yet, but I intend to. The official premiere isn't until December though - and then only on the internet. It will be another two months before it will be in Dutch cinemas.
If you can read Dutch or have a translation program, here (http://www.telegraaf.nl/i-mail/12235541/Fortuyn-film_Van_Gogh_in_premi%E8re_op_internet. html)'s a source. Highly interesting, thanks. Please remind us -- in case you don't forget yourself. :lol

What about his documentation about Islam? How is it called? Can it be downloaded?

Siegfried
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Highly interesting, thanks. Please remind us -- in case you don't forget yourself. :lol

I'll try to remember ;)



What about his documentation about Islam? How is it called? Can it be downloaded?

It's called "Submission" and focuses on the treatment of women under Islam. He made it in coöperation with Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who abandoned Islam and is now a representative in the Dutch parliament. I'm not sure where it can be downloaded right now, but I do know Van Gogh intended to have it on his website; http://www.theovangogh.nl/ The website has been flooded since the murder though, so it's not available at the moment. There's just an... odd picture with some comments about his death.

Gentilis
Thursday, November 4th, 2004, 10:12 PM
First Fortuyn, now Van Gogh. My country is going down the drain. :(
Welcome to the club.

It wasn't so long ago that the mayor of Paris, Bertrand Delanoë, was stabbed by a deranged Muslim motivated by his religious convictions.

Waldgeist
Saturday, November 6th, 2004, 09:28 AM
When I found out about the (ritual) murder on Theo van Gogh, I was totally shocked. First Fortuyn, then Van Gogh, who's next? I heard some politician (can't remember who it was, though) say on the news that Holland has really lost it's innocence now. Well, fine with me. There has been too much "innocence" and tolerance in Holland. I hope that with this murder, all Hell breaks loose. There's no more time for tolerance! Away with religious fundamentalism! Away with the jewish government! It's time for revolution!

Siegmund
Saturday, November 6th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Tribute on Linnaeusstraat:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25056&stc=1

Siegmund
Saturday, November 6th, 2004, 02:19 PM
"Kabaalwake" op de Dam voor Theo van Gogh:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25062&stc=1

MORE (http://www.fotogeert.nl/theo/)

anti-climacus
Saturday, November 6th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Welcome to the club.
It saddens me to say that my country started this club.

Joe000
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 06:00 AM
In one of the articles about this murder, they interviewed one of the mourners. Her answer was very interesting, I thought. She said "The Muslims say they're scared. No, we're scared." What about anger? What about wanting justice? When is Europe (and America too) going to realize that Islam is our most dangerous enemy?

Waldgeist
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 10:49 AM
In one of the articles about this murder, they interviewed one of the mourners. Her answer was very interesting, I thought. She said "The Muslims say they're scared. No, we're scared." What about anger? What about wanting justice? When is Europe (and America too) going to realize that Islam is our most dangerous enemy?

Offcourse, there is a lot of anger in society, but a lot of people are also scared, because they know now that it might be risky to say what you think, especially when it's about muslims or the Koran. Freedom of speech was always something that was considered to be very important in Holland and now it's not such a self-evident thing anymore. That's one of the things that frightens people. Another one is, I think, the fact that some people are afraid of the reactions the murder on Theo van Gogh can have, that we will end up in a downward spiral of violence and that there will be even more polarisation between the Dutch and muslim population of Holland (Holland has a muslim population of approximately 1 million and on 16 million people that's a pretty substantial part) and that it will be even more hard to co-exist peacefullly together than it was in the past (something I can only hope, for I don't believe in integration and it's time that people will see what a threat the Islam is to Western society).

Wichmann
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 12:00 PM
There are more than 3 Mio people with a foreign background in the Netherlands!

Source: Statistics Netherlands

http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Table.asp?STB=G1&LA=en&DM=SLEN&PA=37325eng&D1=a&D2=0-2,127,133,198,216&D3=0&D4=0&D5=0&D6=a,!0-5&HDR=T,G3,G4,G2,G5

What has happened with Pim Furtyn's party?
Are there any other nationalistic or at least right wing party's in Holland?
Do you think they will profit from the anger in society?

Siegfried
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 12:14 PM
What has happened with Pim Furtyn's party?

It collapsed because of in-fighting after the death of Fortuyn. I think the party recently split in two or something, but I pay little attention to them.



Are there any other nationalistic or at least right wing party's in Holland?

There are four explicitly nationalist parties in the Netherlands, none of them represented in the national parliament. Ordered from moderate to radical:

Nieuw Rechts (http://www.nieuwrechts.nl)
Nieuwe Nationale Partij (http://www.nnp.nu)
Nationale Alliantie (http://www.nationalealliantie.com)
Nederlandse Volks-Unie (http://www.nvu.info)



Do you think they will profit from the anger in society?

They could if they would abandon the in-fighting which is epidemic among Dutch nationalists.

Waldgeist
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 01:44 PM
(..)

There are four explicitly nationalist parties in the Netherlands, none of them represented in the national parliament. Ordered from moderate to radical:

Nieuw Rechts (http://www.nieuwrechts.nl)
Nieuwe Nationale Partij (http://www.nnp.nu)
Nationale Alliantie (http://www.nationalealliantie.com)
Nederlandse Volks-Unie (http://www.nvu.info)


(..)

They could if they would abandon the in-fighting which is epidemic among Dutch nationalists.

Yeah, I really hope that the fighting among eachother from Dutch nationalist parties will stop soon, I know that it's always hard to agree on every point, but that's not necessary, what's more important is that you have a certain amount of respect for eachother instead of spreading rumours and lies about others. If we want to succeed, we have to find common goals and work together to achieve them and also we have to adapt to what's happening in society and anticipate where possible, so you can spark peoples interest in your party at times where people are most "vulnerable", most likely to go along with your ideas, for example in situations like the Van Gogh-murder, times of social unrest and discontentedness. And I say "we" because I'm a member of one of the above-mentioned parties. :D

Siegmund
Sunday, November 7th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Article commenting on the assassination from the Belgian separatist Vlaams Blok:

VAN GOGH EN HET VLAAMS BLOK-PROCES

Tweeënhalf jaar nadat vijf kogels een brutaal einde maakten aan het leven van de populaire politicus Pim Fortuyn zit Nederland opgezadeld met een tweede politieke moord. Theo van Gogh, bekend columnist en filmmaker werd in Amsterdam op klaarlichte dag op straat vermoord omwille van zijn overtuiging. Het land verkeert in zware schok na deze nieuwe aanslag op vrije meningsuiting en de democratie. Want dat het dit was, staat intussen wel vast.

Multiculturele kater

De moord op van Gogh lijkt zijn onheilsboodschap dat de multiculturele samenleving dreigt uit te draaien op een "Belfast" te bevestigen. De verstandhouding tussen autochtonen en allochtonen stond de laatste jaren al zwaar onder druk en is nu helemaal zoek. De verdraagzaamheid was al te vaak een éénrichtingsverkeer en is uit de bocht gegaan. Het ziet er naar uit dat na de volksopstand die Pim Fortuyn ontketende in de stembus, alles terug in zijn oude plooi is gevallen. Het politieke establishment leek alweer in slaap gedommeld en in Den Haag was het "business as usual". Fortuyn heeft ervoor gezorgd dat het maatschappelijke debat over de mislukte integratie in alle hevigheid werd gevoerd en de politieke partijen zijn schoorvoetend gevolgd. Maar dat het tij nog niet gekeerd is, is na de moord op van Gogh opnieuw duidelijk. Zo bleek de allochtone dader te beschikken over de dubbele nationaliteit: de Nederlandse en de Marokkaanse. In een televisiedebat vroeg een journaliste van Turkse afkomst zich luidop af, hoe het mogelijk is dat de Nederlandse overheid zijn inwoners niet eenvoudig verplicht een ondubbelzinnige keuze te maken: "Je kan niet het één én het ander zijn" ... De Nederlandse liberale politicus Geert Wilders liet verstaan dat "de mensen het spuugzat zijn" en dat de politiek er maar eens eindelijk werk van moet maken om allochtonen die zich bezondigen aan zware criminaliteit hun Nederlandse identiteit weer af te nemen en stante pede het land uit te zetten. Tussen haakjes mag er hier op gewezen worden dat de CD&V in de marge van het debat over het vreemdelingenstemrecht in ons land, voorstelde om het systeem van de dubbele nationaliteit te versoepelen ...

Het regime heeft zich gehaast om de spontane volkswoede in Nederland 'in goede banen te leiden'. Politici van alle partijen drukten hun afschuw uit en riepen de bevolking op vooral geen 'voorbarige conclusies' te trekken. Vreemdelingenorganisaties hebben de laffe moord openlijk veroordeeld. Dat zou aanleiding kunnen zijn tot enige geruststelling, ware het niet dat nogal wat allochtonen voor camera en micro te kennen gaven dat Theo van Gogh het met zijn harde kritiek op de islam toch zelf gezocht had ...

Voedingsbodem

"De moord op van Gogh is gepleegd door een enkeling. Zijn motieven zijn onbekend, maar wel staat vast dat hij van Marokkaanse afkomst is. De al gespannen verhoudingen tussen de Nederlandse bevolking en de Marokkaanse gemeenschap komen door een krankzinnige daad van één man nog meer onder druk", schreef Jean Vanempten in zijn commentaar in de Vlaamse krant De Tijd.

Die visie is zonder twijfel politiek-correct, maar niet in de feiten. De 26-jarige dader was geen onbekende voor het gerecht en vertoefde in kringen van moslimfundamentalisten. Zo was hij bevriend met Samir A., een jonge Rotterdammer die enkele maanden geleden werd aangehouden omdat hij rondliep met plannen voor een aanslag tegen het parlement in Den Haag. Dat de motieven 'onbekend' zouden zijn klopt ook al niet en dat het gaat om een 'krankzinnige daad' is hoogst twijfelachtig. Theo van Gogh werd met meerdere kogels afgemaakt. Nadat het slachtoffer al op de grond lag, prikte de moordenaar met een mes een brief met islamitische teksten in zijn borst. De overheid weigert alsnog bijzonderheden over de inhoud van de boodschap bekend te maken, maar volgens NRC Handelsblad roept de dader op tot een heilige oorlog - jihad - tegen de 'vijanden van de islam' ... Dat alles wijst niet op een opwelling of 'krankzinnige daad' maar een zorgvuldig geplande, koelbloedig uitgevoerde en politiek-religieus geïnspireerde executie. Het heeft weinig zin om die verontrustende werkelijkheid niet onder ogen te zien of te verdoezelen.

Allochtone organisaties namen luidop afstand van de gruwelijke daad, maar dat neemt niet weg dat heel wat allochtonen even luidop zeggen 'opgeruimd staat netjes'. 'Van Gogh heeft erom gevraagd', iets wat nog veel meer vreemdelingen stilletjes schijnen te denken. In Nederlandse kranten verschenen boze reacties van progressieve leerkrachten die tot hun verbijstering moesten vaststellen dat de moord op van Gogh in hun gekleurde school op gejuich werd onthaald door allochtone leerlingen. Een ontnuchtering die even hard moet aangekomen zijn als de beelden van vreemde jongeren die na de aanslagen van 11 september in de straten van Nederlandse steden een feestje bouwden.

Eén en ander roept vragen op. Hoe raken allochtone jongeren zo makkelijk aan vuurwapens? En wat maakt dat ze er schijnbaar zonder gewetensprobleem gebruik van maken? Wat bezielt allochtone jongeren, die - wat men ook mag beweren - het in het vrije Westen lang niet slecht hebben en hier alle kansen krijgen om zich te ontplooien (stemrecht incluis), om de wapens op te nemen en te gaan vechten in Afghanistan, Kasjmir of Irak?

Dodenlijst

Natuurlijk zijn niet alle moslims potentiële moordenaars of terroristen. Maar - om het met de woorden van de directeur van de Arabische zender Al Arabia te zeggen - de meeste terroristen zijn wel moslims. Het wordt tijd dat de politiek wakker wordt. Neem maar van ons aan dat de meeste politici nog altijd geen flauw idee hebben van wat er broeit in de multiculturele wijken van onzer grootsteden. Het is daar dat fanatieke moslimextremisten een vruchtbare voedingsbodem hebben gevonden.

In Nederland wordt de dodenlijst met de dag langer. Pim Fortuyn en Theo van Gogh werden al uit de weg geruimd. Gevreesd mag worden dat Ayaan Hirsi Ali het volgende slachtoffer wordt. Het liberale parlementslid van Somalische afkomst haalde in verschillende boeken zwaar uit naar de mishandeling van vrouwen en de schending van de mensenrechten in de islamwereld. Ze kreeg meermaals doodsbedreigingen en dook na het maken van een controversiële film met Theo van Gogh daarover, onder. Ook Geert Wilders moet vrezen voor zijn leven. De liberale politicus stapte op uit zijn partij omdat hij het niet eens is met de toetreding van Turkije tot de Europese Unie. Na kritische uitlatingen over de islam, doken op internet niet mis te verstane haatboodschappen op: "we gaan uw hoofd afsnijden" ...

Gelukkig is ons land tot op heden van politieke moorden gespaard gebleven, maar of dat reden genoeg is om op beide oren te slapen is nog maar de vraag.

Vrije meningsuiting

"Over Christenen en joden, en wat hun heilig is, kan je alles zeggen, want ze houden braaf hun manieren. Maar elke kritiek op de islam moet met de grootste omzichtigheid geuit worden", merkte Marc Van de Weyer terecht op in Het Belang van Limburg. Islamkritiek is gevaarlijk geworden en kan je je leven kosten. Dat is een dramatische zaak voor de vrije meningsuiting en het zo noodzakelijke debat over de integratie en de plaats van de islam in onze Westerse samenleving. Want onze waarden en normen, onze manier van leven, onze democratische vrijheden liggen in de weegschaal. De botsing van beschavingen - waarvoor niet alleen Huntington, maar ook Fortuyn, van Gogh én het Vlaams Blok altijd hebben gewaarschuwd - doet zich vandaag al voor in onze steden.

In de Vlaamse pers verschenen verontwaardigde commentaren van journalisten. Allemaal roepen ze op om de vrije meningsuiting te beschermen. "Als geweld leidt tot een gefnuikt debat over de organisatie van onze complexe samenleving, zijn wij allen gijzelaars. De vrije meningsuiting, hoe irritant ook, moet tot elke prijs verdedigd worden" (Bart Sturtewagen in De Standaard). "Vrijheid van meningsuiting is er niet in de eerste plaats voor meningen die ons welgevallig zijn, maar eerst en vooral voor die meningen 'die shockeren en verontrusten', zoals het in de arresten van het Europese Hof voor de Rechten van de Mens bij herhaling wordt uitgedrukt" (Yves Desmet in De Morgen).

Schizofrenie lijkt een hardnekkig kwaaltje dat wel vaker zijn kop opsteekt in journalistieke kringen. Volgende week dinsdag staat het Vlaams Blok in het aanslepende politieke proces wegens vermeend 'racisme' opnieuw voor de rechter. We hebben bij de veroordeling van het Vlaams Blok op 21 april in Gent geen pleidooi voor de vrije meningsuiting gehoord uit der mond van Sturtewagen of het zelfverklaarde 'geweten van Vlaanderen' Yves Desmet.

"Het debat (over de multiculturele samenleving en de islam) moet gevoerd worden in de stijl die iedereen het best past. Verzoenend, dialogerend, maar ook provocerend en uitdagend. Dat is één van de pijlers waarop onze samenleving berust", aldus een vermanende Desmet. 'Nou breekt mijn klomp', zou wijlen Fortuyn zeggen. Als er iemand is die jarenlang geen scheldwoorden heeft geschuwd om duidelijk te maken binnen welke krijtlijnen het debat over de multiculturele samenleving moest gevoerd worden is het Desmet wel. Wie het waagde om even buiten de lijntjes te kleuren, werd in zijn krantje publiek aan de schandpaal gespijkerd. Een vrij en open debat? Hallo?

Proces is moordaanslag

"We kunnen niet toestaan", schrijft Sturtewagen, "dat onder dreiging van geweld zaken niet meer kunnen worden gezegd. Ook stommiteiten, overdrijvingen en brutaliteiten behoren ertoe. Niet alleen wie netjes op zijn beurt wacht en met twee woorden spreekt, mag meedoen. Maar bij geweld ligt de grens."

Zo is dat. Dat is ook altijd het standpunt geweest van het Vlaams Blok. Theo van Gogh heeft in het verleden heel wat scherpere dingen gezegd en geschreven dan wij ooit gedaan hebben. En toch werd hij nooit voor de rechtbank gesleept. Dat bewijst dat de bestaande racismewet in ons land een onding is en een bedreiging voor de vrije meningsuiting. Weg ermee, net als met het beruchte Centrum voor Gelijke Kansen en Racismebestrijding dat zich meer en meer ontpopte als censuurmachine van het regime!

"Bij geweld ligt de grens". Inderdaad. Wij dagen onze tegenstanders én de rechters uit om aan te tonen waar en wanneer wij ooit zouden opgeroepen hebben tot geweld. In een democratie moet alles gezegd kunnen worden, en mogen alleen daden strafbaar zijn.

Op 9 november velt de rechtbank oordeel over het Vlaams Blok. Die dag wordt beslist of de meningen in dit land nog vrij zijn. Of de multiculturele samenleving echte vrije meningsuiting verdraagt. In Nederland wordt die vrije meningsuiting met revolvers bedreigd door religieuze en politieke fanatici. In eigen land blijven de wapens voorlopig in de schuif, maar is het de regering zelf die bij middel van politieke processen tegen de grootste partij van het land de vrije meningsuiting op de helling zet. De wapens verschillen, maar het blijft wél een aanslag.

Frank Vanhecke
Voorzitter Vlaams Blok

Telperion
Monday, November 8th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Here's an article that touches on the broader issues raised by this appalling crime:




Europeans Face Tough Choices on Islam

Sat Nov 6, 5:28 PM ET
Top Stories - AP (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/addtomy/*http://add.my.yahoo.com/content?id=6054&.src=yn&.done=http%3a//news.yahoo.com/news%3ftmpl=story%26cid=514%26e=6%26u=/ap/20041106/ap_on_re_eu/europe_s_islamic_challenge)

By BRIAN MURPHY, AP Religion Writer

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Europe's complex interplay with Islam appears to stand at a tipping-point, and the slaying of a Dutchman who made a movie critical of Islam could indicate one direction in which it is headed. "The Muslims say they're scared," said mourner Nicolette Toering. "No, we're scared."

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041105/thumb.ny19211052303.netherlands_copycat_ beheadings_ny192.jpg (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041105/481/ny19211052303)
AP Photo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041105/481/ny19211052303)


Dutch authorities were investigating whether the chief suspect, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan man detained shortly after the attack, acted alone out of rage or had links to wider extremist networks.

A five-page letter pinned to the body of Theo van Gogh, brutally murdered Tuesday as he was riding his bike down a busy boulevard in Amsterdam, called for Muslims to rise up against the "infidel enemies" in the West.

Other messages — later left at the sidewalk shrine where the 47-year-old filmmaker's throat was slashed — dripped with equal venom against radical Islam. "Enemies live among us," read one missive in a bed of flowers, votive candles and crosses.

The attack has underscored the hard political and social choices that European leaders face about Muslims and the wider Islamic world.

In December, European Union (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22European%20Union%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=European%20Union)) leaders will decide whether to overlook widespread public objections and move ahead with membership talks with Turkey, a Muslim nation of about 70 million people and a galloping birthrate that could push it past Germany's population in a generation.

European police agencies have sharply boosted cooperation against suspected Islamic terrorist groups following the March train bombings in Spain that killed 191 people. Washington's European allies in Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq)) are reassessing their levels of military and commercial support following waves of attacks, kidnappings and beheadings blamed on Islamic militants.

EU officials last month signed the text of a proposed EU Constitution that still could face opposition from voters demanding a clear reference to Europe's Christian history.

But those big issues fade on the streets of many European centers. Here — even in places like tolerant Amsterdam — it's often expressed as a gnawing feeling that militant factions in Islamic immigrant communities are gaining ground and chipping away at values such as free speech and secular politics.

"There is a general feeling that a social collision is becoming inevitable," said Jan Rath, co-director of the Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies at the University of Amsterdam. "People think it's been building for years and now finally coming to the surface."

The landmarks along the way included the 1989 death threat "fatwa," or religious edict, against British writer Salman Rushdie for alleged insults to Islam in "The Satanic Verses," the rise of neo-Fascist movements, the assassination of Dutch anti-immigrant politician Pim Fortuyn in 2002 and France's ongoing showdown with Muslims over a ban on headscarves and other religious apparel in schools.

"My impression is the European voices that say, `Everyone is equal, but we are more equal than Muslims,' are growing," Rath said.

The Netherlands offers a good vantage point to gauge changing attitudes toward Muslim communities across Europe — which have grown more than 100 percent in the past 15 years, according to U.N. reports. Some sources place the Muslim population as high as 13.5 million in Western Europe, or more than 2 percent of the population, in addition to more than 6 million native-born Muslims in the Balkans.

Unlike the French or Spanish, the Dutch long had little direct contact with Islam apart from a colonial presence in distant Indonesia that ended in 1949. Muslim immigrants began arriving following World War II as reconstruction labor — as they did in Germany and other countries.

The workers, mostly Turks, assimilated well into Dutch society. Moroccans and other North Africans began arriving in the 1970s and 1980s, when more lenient laws allowed men to bring in their families.

But the situation in Holland was getting tougher. Jobs were more scarce — especially for the Moroccan immigrant children — and some politicians began trying to connect the rising crime rate with the swelling Muslim community: now about 1 million in a country of 16 million people.

Last year, a parliament member, Geert Wilders, pressed for a five-year ban on immigration from Turkey and Morocco. Dutch anti-terrorist agents, meanwhile, have intensified probes into alleged radical recruitment among young Muslims.

Van Gogh — a distant relative of the famous 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent Van Gogh — often tested the boundaries of free expression by denouncing Muslims in the most graphic terms. His last work, "Submission," a joint project with Somali-born lawmaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali, attacked the treatment of women under Islam.

The filmmaker's fans were as passionate as his detractors.

"He was trying to warn us about the dangers of radical Islam," said teacher Geert Plas as he visited the site where Van Gogh was ambushed. "Now maybe we'll listen. To me this is not just a small event. It's part of the World Trade Center and Madrid. We must see this."

The letter pinned to the victim's body also threatened death to Hirsi Ali, who has gone into hiding, and predicted the downfall of the "infidel enemies of Islam" in Europe, America and the Netherlands.

"The jihad (holy war) has come to the Netherlands," parliament speaker Jozias van Aartsen said.

The memorials that piled up on the dark brick sidewalk often crossed the line from sympathy to seething recriminations. "This is the true face of Islam," said a handwritten message. A framed poem called "Imam" ends with a stanza: "If you want to improve the world, start with yourself and your faith."

A banner waved from a fence: "Theo rests his case."

Christian prayer cards, crosses and biblical passages sat amid the flowers — a rare religious outpouring in one of Europe's most secular states.

"This doesn't just say something about the Netherlands," said Baukje Prins, assistant professor of social philosophy at Holland's Groninjen University. "It is an example of how international relations have become polarized."

At a mosque near the murder site, Friday prayers were dominated by talk of the slaying — sprinkled with worry about a possible backlash.

"We are in danger," a Moroccan man told a group of friends sitting in a circle on a carpeted floor.

"No, no," another man said. "We cannot give in to fear. This is our home now."

Moulay Idrissi listened and shook his head.

"I'm afraid. I can't deny it," said Idrissi, who emigrated from Morocco in 1978. "I feel respect for Muslims is falling away in Europe. When people have no respect, anything can happen."

A few hours later, suspected arsonists set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, but no injuries were reported.

A 22-year-old student, Abdul Salam, said he tries to tell Christian friends that Muslims have been in Europe since the Moors crossed into Spain in the 8th century.

"So I don't know what to think when people say I don't belong here because I'm Muslim," he said. "I was born here. I don't even speak Arabic. I am European. That's what I feel. That's what I am."

But Salam represents just one side of an internal struggle within Muslim communities in Europe, said Akbar Ahmed, a professor of Islamic studies at American University in Washington.

"Right now the West sees all Islam as a kind of monolith and wipes away all nuances," said Ahmed. "Some want to draw boundaries around Islam in Europe. Other Muslims want to deal with non-Muslims in a broad and tolerant way. It's not new to Islam. It's just new to Europe."

gorgeousgal2k2
Monday, November 8th, 2004, 05:07 PM
I just heard on the news that a muslim school in Holland had been partially blown up. While I understand why those people were so angry and why they did it, I think their action was completely stupid and it sunk to a very low level. It's a shame. :(

And didn't you just love the way the BBC referred to the Dutch mourners as "far-right protesters". They weren't, they were ordinary people. But oh yeah, only people on the "far right" get angry about racist murders of people who were only expressing their views :eyes. Silly me.

It's obvious what they're trying to do, they're just trying to demonise them by portraying them as racist "extreme right wingers". And nobody wants to be associated with evil, intolerant racists. It's just a way of silencing these people and making them out to be the ones at fault. :soap GRRRR.

Siegmund
Monday, November 8th, 2004, 05:15 PM
I just heard on the news that a muslim school in Holland had been partially blown up.
A brief wire story from Radio Netherlands:


A bomb exploded outside an Islamic school in the Dutch city of Eindhoven early this morning. The entrance to the school was badly damaged but no one was hurt.

Police believe the bombing is linked to the killing of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam last week. The filmmaker was stabbed and shot dead by a Muslim fundamentalist for his critical statements about Islam.

Over the weekend there were attacks on Islamic buildings in four towns and cities. In Rotterdam, Huizen and Breda attempts were made to set fire to mosques. In Amsterdam, an office used mainly by Moroccans was daubed with red paint. source (http://www.rnw.nl/news/news.html)
I agree with your comments on the demonization of individuals who find themselves shocked at brutal murders like this one. It's oh-so-consistent with the prevailing, politically correct multicultural media bias.

Siegfried
Monday, November 8th, 2004, 05:31 PM
It's just the beginning. I think few Western European countries have as much potential for a national revolution as the Netherlands. Fortuyn uncovered the tip of the iceberg. There have been occassional attacks on mosques for a few years now. It's just getting bigger. There are areas in the big cities where Whites simply can't go. Just recently there was a news item about a White family in Amsterdam which was forced to leave their darkening neighbourhood by non-White gangs. The Dutch section of Stormfront is the biggest non-American subforum there, and arguably the most active; the 'hard core' of the members meet on a rather regular basis. There are four explicitly nationalist parties, two of which are represented in local councils in Rotterdam. Clashes between nationalists and anti-fascists are becoming more common and more extreme. The latest march of the neo-National-Socialist NVU (http://www.nvu.info) ended with the arrest of 200 anti-fascists.
There's certainly potential here; it just needs to be channeled and organised.

gorgeousgal2k2
Monday, November 8th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Who the fuck would get upset about a sign saying "thou shalt not kill" btw?

Tryggvi
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Repatriate all non-Germanics, and The Netherlands will be a beautiful, tolerant, open-minded, freedom-conscious, peaceful, and safe country with no problems.

Stríbog
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 02:15 AM
Repatriate all non-Germanics, and The Netherlands will be a beautiful, tolerant, open-minded, freedom-conscious, peaceful, and safe country with no problems.


What about the Dutch people with French surnames? ;)

The Blond Beast
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 04:52 AM
Who the fuck would get upset about a sign saying "thou shalt not kill" btw?

Perhaps Jewish Israelis, who know that oppression through murder is Israel's only buttress against dissolution. ;)

Siegfried
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 08:00 AM
What about the Dutch people with French surnames? ;)

Traitors and mongrels, all of them ;)

Stríbog
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 09:10 AM
Traitors and mongrels, all of them ;)

Here's one Dutch girl with a French name with whom I wouldn't mind "mongrelizing" :D

http://www.eliseboulogne.com/windows/fhm/1.jpg

http://www.eliseboulogne.com/windows/fhm/6.jpg

http://www.eliseboulogne.com/windows/fhm/2.jpg

http://www.eliseboulogne.com/windows/fhm/4.jpg

Waldgeist
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 09:21 AM
Repatriate all non-Germanics, and The Netherlands will be a beautiful, tolerant, open-minded, freedom-conscious, peaceful, and safe country with no problems.Sounds great, a good reason to keep on fighting for! Sadly, a lot of people are only talking about how Holland is going down the drain and how things must change, but aren't undertaking any actions. We must unite, there's always something you can do! Even if it is just becoming a member of a right-wing party (for example the Nationale Alliantie :D http://www.nationalealliantie.com/and supporting them financially! Nothing is in vain!

Siegmund
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Repatriate all non-Germanics, and The Netherlands will be a beautiful, tolerant, open-minded, freedom-conscious, peaceful, and safe country with no problems.


Sounds great, a good reason to keep on fighting for! Sadly, a lot of people are only talking about how Holland is going down the drain and how things must change, but aren't undertaking any actions. We must unite, there's always something you can do! Even if it is just becoming a member of a right-wing party (for example the Nationale Alliantie :D http://www.nationalealliantie.com/and supporting them financially! Nothing is in vain!
The following two photos show what's ultimately at stake:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25383&stc=1


OR
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25384&stc=1

Waldgeist
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 11:29 AM
The following two photos show what's ultimately at stake:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25383&stc=1





ORhttp://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=25384&stc=1Exactly! If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your (Germanic) children! Unity is the key to succes!

Dante Alighieri
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 01:36 PM
First I thought the second picture was made on the Westbank. But I looked again, and I see it's Amsterdam! :-O :(

Siegmund
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 02:39 PM
First I thought the second picture was made on the Westbank. But I looked again, and I see it's Amsterdam! :-O :(
Yes, you can tell from the building in the background. That's what makes it so scary.

Waldgeist
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004, 07:07 PM
Yes, you can tell from the building in the background. That's what makes it so scary.

Damn, you're right! I only just noticed it! Apparently Amsterdam is not only jew capital of Europe, but also palestinian capital of Europe... :-O

Death and the Sun
Monday, April 18th, 2005, 08:57 PM
http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050413/111339810000.html


The man suspected of killing Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh made his first public appearance Wednesday since his arrest more than five months ago, walking into court with the help of crutches before briefly addressing the judges.

Mohammed Bouyeri, 27, took a bullet in the leg during a shootout with police minutes after Van Gogh was shot and stabbed to death on a busy Amsterdam street on Nov. 2. The defendant has spent several months at a medical clinic where doctors sought to evaluate his mental condition.


Van Gogh's outspoken criticism of the treatment of women in some Muslim communities which he expressed in newspaper columns and in his short film "Submission" offended many Muslims.

Bouyeri allegedly shot Van Gogh repeatedly, ignoring his pleas to spare his life, and then slit his throat and used a second knife to pin a five-page note to his chest.

The note threatened Islamic holy war against nonbelievers, and was addressed to lawmaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who wrote the script for Submission.


Mainstream Muslim groups condemned the killing, but Bouyeri is viewed as a hero by some, especially in the country's poorest immigrant neighborhoods.

Gustavus Magnus
Monday, April 18th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Mainstream Muslim groups condemned the killing, but Bouyeri is viewed as a hero by some, especially in the country's poorest immigrant neighborhoods.

Of course. :speechles

Stig NHF
Tuesday, April 19th, 2005, 07:30 AM
Uhm....Are you defending a liberal? Great job, I'd say to the Maroccan.

The Horned God
Tuesday, April 19th, 2005, 08:07 AM
Uhm....Are you defending a liberal? Great job, I'd say to the Maroccan.

Even if Van Gogh held the most repulsive liberal views, his murder is to be condemed because, firstly, he did not deserve to die in that manner, nor at the hands of a foreigner and secondly, no Muslim should dare to interfere in european political matters. They have their own homelands and those of them who are residing in Europe should respect european ways whether they agree with them or not, just as non-Muslims are required to do while residing in Saudi Arabia.

Todesritter
Tuesday, April 19th, 2005, 08:56 AM
Europeans should be allowed for a few generations to explore and reject abject Liberalism, without it being an inroad to their 'guests' assassinating their culture, and biology from within.

Stig NHF
Tuesday, April 19th, 2005, 03:58 PM
After several hundred years they haven't done shit with it, so in my opinion we need the "help" of the moslems to make progress.

Death and the Sun
Tuesday, April 19th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Uhm....Are you defending a liberal? Great job, I'd say to the Maroccan.

No, I'm not defending him. In fact I know very little about this person. I just wanted to bring this news article to your attention.

However, I DO defend even the liberty of liberals to hold the views they do without Muslim scum slitting their throats.

Theudanaz
Monday, July 11th, 2005, 06:02 PM
Accused Van Gogh Killer Won't Defend Self

By TOBY STERLING, Associated Press Writer 39 minutes ago

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The accused killer of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh walked into court with a Quran under his arm at the start of his trial Monday and defied judges by refusing to defend himself.

Police escorted Mohammed Bouyeri into the high-security courtroom as dozens of spectators looked on from behind a glass barrier.

Dressed in a flowing tan robe and a black and white checked headscarf, he listened carefully to the proceedings, stroking his beard. He refused to answer judges' questions but at one point quoted an Arabic prayer. Later, he left the courtroom with the Quran raised above his head.

Prosecutors say Bouyeri, who was born in Amsterdam to Moroccan immigrants, attacked Van Gogh on an Amsterdam street Nov. 2, shooting him six times before cutting his throat.

The killing was seen as an act of terrorism because Van Gogh was a prominent critic of Muslim fundamentalism. The killer left a five-page note — fixed on the corpse with a knife — filled with religious ramblings.

Bouyeri, 27, faces a maximum life sentence if convicted in the slaying.

His trial is being closely watched in a nation once proud of its cultural diversity but now shaken by an act of violence which has tested relations between the Dutch and 1 million Muslim immigrants.

Bouyeri confirmed his identity for the three judges, but his lawyer, Peter Plasman, has said his client does not recognize the authority of the court and would not mount a defense of the charges.

"My client wants no defense by him, nor on his behalf, and that's a very thoroughly considered decision," Plasman said. "This is probably the last thing I'll be saying at this trial."

Van Gogh's mother and sister briefly addressed the court, but the defendant avoided eye contact, only looking up briefly when they took the stand.

"The brutal murder left a gaping hole in our family, a hole that will never be filled," his sister, Josien van Gogh, said in a quavering voice. "I hope that (Bouyeri) gets the heaviest possible punishment. But on Nov. 2, we were already given a life sentence."

Judges read a conversation police recorded between Bouyeri and his brother while he was in detention, in which Bouyeri said, "I swear by Allah, if there was a death penalty, I would beg for it."

A psychological evaluation found he was sane and fit to stand trial. University of Amsterdam professor Rudolph Peters, called as an expert witness, said Bouyeri had adopted progressively more radical views in the 18 months before the killing.

"My conclusion is that Mr. Bouyeri saw himself as an instrument of God," he testified.

Van Gogh, a distant relative of the artist Vincent Van Gogh, was apparently targeted because he offended Muslims with his 2004 short film "Submission." In it, a veiled female narrator tells the fictional first-person stories of four women who suffer physical and sexual abuse in Muslim households.

Van Gogh's killing set off a wave of attacks on mosques and Islamic buildings, and a handful of retaliatory attacks on churches in a country once known for its peacefulness and tolerance. Twelve men accused of belonging to a radical group with Bouyeri, known as the Hofstad Network, are awaiting trial on terrorism charges.

The Dutch intelligence agency AIVD believes that fundamentalist groups are recruiting in Holland among immigrants who are Muslims. More than 50 terrorism suspects have been arrested here since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. All but two were acquitted of major offenses.

Tensions between Muslims, who make up about 6 percent of the population, and others reached a fever pitch in the days after the killing, but have since cooled.