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Prodigal Son
Monday, March 24th, 2003, 05:33 AM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/north-euro-anthro/message/4128


From: Richard McCulloch <archon@r...>
Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: [north-euro-anthro] Re: Battle-Axe types




Before I discuss Joseph's post, I would like to address the
misconception, or misrepresentation, that either the SNPA or I classify
Ladogans as a partially Mongoloid type. I have never written this, nor
am I aware that the SNPA has written this. In fact, when this
misconception was raised earlier I made this point and said that the
SNPA does not even have a page for the Ladogans. I regard the Ladogans
much as I regard the Alpines and Dinarics -- as a Caucasoid race on the
periphery of the Nordish racial group. At the eastern side of its
geographic range the Ladogan race borders the geographic range of
Mongoloid peoples, and in this clinal zone there are partially Mongoloid
Ladogan elements, but in my opinion the Ladogan type as such should be
considered Caucasoid......

Full text of e-mail available at the link.

Nordhammer
Monday, March 24th, 2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Prodigal Son
Wrom: XCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFX
Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: [north-euro-anthro] Re: Battle-Axe types




Before I discuss Joseph's post, I would like to address the
misconception, or misrepresentation, that either the SNPA or I classify
Ladogans as a partially Mongoloid type. I have never written this, nor
am I aware that the SNPA has written this. In fact, when this
misconception was raised earlier I made this point and said that the
SNPA does not even have a page for the Ladogans. I regard the Ladogans
much as I regard the Alpines and Dinarics -- as a Caucasoid race on the
periphery of the Nordish racial group. At the eastern side of its
geographic range the Ladogan race borders the geographic range of
Mongoloid peoples, and in this clinal zone there are partially Mongoloid
Ladogan elements, but in my opinion the Ladogan type as such should be
considered Caucasoid......

I don't know why he pretends to be unaware of this. I posted to the old list before these questions, because his conception of a Ladogan is very different from SNPA's statement on their website.

-
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/gloss1.htm

LADOGAN RACE

Partly reduced, partly Mongolid brachycephal of the eastern forests of Russia and eastern Finland; seldom found in its true form, while two blended varieties, East Baltic and Neo-Danubian, predominate in eastern Europe, Russia, and the Baltic nations; belonging to the Upper Paleolithic group, and related to the Lappish type of northern Scandinavia; Alexander Lebed is a Russian Ladogan:
-

It's clearly stated it's partly Mongolid, not -oid, not -ish, but -id. I think McCulloch's take is that it's not a Mongolid, but similar to an Alpine having incipient Mongoloid traits. I would classify Tom Ridge as partly Ladogan in the latter respect.

Evolved
Monday, March 24th, 2003, 11:19 AM
Aren't they an archaic race dating from the times when Mongoloids and Caucasoids branched apart from one another? Don't they have a resemblance to the Ainu people?

http://languageportraits.net/panels/images/Ainu-Photo2.jpg
http://www.voicenet.co.jp/~jeanphi/ngo/indigenous/ainu/portrait_65.JPG
http://www1.sphere.ne.jp/mukyoku/ainu.JPG
http://www.frpac.or.jp/english/past_event/13/images/13kirimoto.jpg
http://toruko.com/japonya/resimlerle/images/eski_ainu_cifti.jpg
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/images/frontiers_image.jpg
http://www.samefolket.se/aldre_nummer/archive/shsamp8.jpg
http://www.unifi.it/unifi/msn/antrop/route/eura0007.jpg
http://cervantesvirtual.com/historia/TH/graf/s_ainu.jpg
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/arctic/duplicate1/ainu1.jpg
http://www.siue.edu/~dbrowne/350/ainu_couple.jpg
http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/japan99/ainuceremony01.jpg
http://www.isei.or.jp/books/75/Ainu.gif
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/HFeid/ainu.jpg
http://www.jipango.com/jipango/no7/images/dossier/ainu.jpg

Von Braun
Monday, March 24th, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by ladygoeth33
Aren't they an archaic race dating from the times when Mongoloids and Caucasoids branched apart from one another? Don't they have a resemblance to the Ainu people?


She may have a point. Perhaps they are a stagnant strain that has been in existence since around the time of this split. That would explain them having traits from both races.

This theory reminds me of the duck-billed platypus, which is an evolutionary stagnant type, representing an intermediate form between reptiles and mammals.

Nordhammer
Monday, March 24th, 2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by ladygoeth33
Aren't they an archaic race dating from the times when Mongoloids and Caucasoids branched apart from one another? Don't they have a resemblance to the Ainu people?


I'm not sure how useful the classification is really. IMO, if racial classifications can't be used in a productive manner then they should be thrown out. It has to have some relevance in our modern times. A "pure Ladogan" is very rare if even exists, so then it's not very useful as far as I can tell. Someone could actually be 1/4 Mongoloid and be classified as Ladogan, so it becomes confusing.

Take Tom Ridge for instance, his baby pictures look actually Mongoloid, as LadyGoeth can attest. Is it just incipient or real? We cannot know for sure without further evidence.

Ladogans aren't a recognized ethnic group as far as I can tell, so studying them doesn't seem possible in a real way. Lapps on the other hand are a real group and they have been studied, genetically too. Coon thought that Lapps were similar to the Ladogan idea, Europeans evolved in a Mongoloid direction and no history of real Mongolid invasion exists. But we see that genetically, they are actually hybrids, whether by admixture or by evolution - they are indeed half Mongolid.

GreenHeart
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 08:29 AM
People who border with mongoloids in the east and white people in the west (the clinal zone), who have many mongoloid traits.... Remnants of the split, or just a mix? It's not a hard question....

Anyone who thinks that these people aren't mixed are just using wishful thinking. And they are also usually slavs :rolleyes:

Evolved
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 09:27 AM
Richard McCulloch isn't a Slav. :)

To be mixed with Ladogans is the same as being mixed with Alpines or Mediterraneans. Finland & Germany has plenty Ladogan admixture, is a Ladogan German or Finn more "Aryan" (or whatever word you prefer) than a Ladogan Slav? :rolleyes:

I showed you that Germany used share a border with Russia (and Finland still does), but you had no comment on that.

GreenHeart
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by ladygoeth33
Richard McCulloch isn't a Slav. :)

To be mixed with Ladogans is the same as being mixed with Alpines or Mediterraneans. Finland & Germany has plenty Ladogan admixture, is a Ladogan German or Finn more "Aryan" (or whatever word you prefer) than a Ladogan Slav? :rolleyes:

I showed you that Germany used share a border with Russia (and Finland still does), but you had no comment on that.


McCulloch is doing something most people also know about and do, he's changing the facts to fit the moment, probably to avoid offending some moronic slavs.

It doesn't matter much that Germany bordered once with Russia, Germans have always been proud people and have always hated mixed russians and other slavic muds. Germans generally stick to their own kind. Just ask any modern German what they think of the Russians who terrorize Germany - the same bloodline of those who helped betray the land of my ancestors to Poland and other slavic lands- the people who have been against us from the beginning and remain so today.

Not that I hate all Russian things, I liked the Nutcracker and Anastasia :gift

Tore
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 09:31 PM
People who border with mongoloids in the east and white people in the west (the clinal zone), who have many mongoloid traits.... Remnants of the split, or just a mix? It's not a hard question....

You make a good point.

Yet the population lying between true Europid and Mongoloid peoples are those East of the Urals, who, as you pointed out, have acquired some mongoloid blood.

Such peoples are generally Altaics, Mari, or mixed Ladogans.

Pure Ladogans, however, can be said to be generally Europid due to their prevailingly light pigmentation. These Ladogans are the ones by which are found largely in Slavic populations.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Trønder
You make a good point.

Yet the population lying between true Europid and Mongoloid peoples are those East of the Urals, who, as you pointed out, have acquired some mongoloid blood.

Such peoples are generally Altaics, Mari, or mixed Ladogans.

Pure Ladogans, however, can be said to be generally Europid due to their prevailingly light pigmentation. These Ladogans are the ones by which are found largely in Slavic populations.

Its no use talking sense to NP88. She calls anyone living in Russia a "Slavic mud." I for one am sick of the anti-Russian hatemongering on this board. I am leaving. Good luck to all the good people here.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, March 26th, 2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
McCulloch is doing something most people also know about and do, he's changing the facts to fit the moment, probably to avoid offending some moronic slavs.

Or maybe he is "Changing the facts" not to offend Finns and Swedes who have significant Uralic ancestry as well.



It doesn't matter much that Germany bordered once with Russia, Germans have always been proud people and have always hated mixed russians and other slavic muds.

LOL, yes that must be why the people of East Germany are almost entirely of Slavo-Baltic derivation.


Germans generally stick to their own kind. Just ask any modern German what they think of the Russians who terrorize Germany - the same bloodline of those who helped betray the land of my ancestors to Poland and other slavic lands- the people who have been against us from the beginning and remain so today.

Really? Since when do Russian terrorize Germany NP88?


Not that I hate all Russian things, I liked the Nutcracker and Anastasia :gift

I don't hate all massive cheekboned, partly Mongoloid (through Finnish ancestry) Nazi-wannabe high-school students; I just think they are stupid.

GreenHeart
Thursday, March 27th, 2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Prodigal Son
Its no use talking sense to NP88. She calls anyone living in Russia a "Slavic mud." I for one am sick of the anti-Russian hatemongering on this board. I am leaving. Good luck to all the good people here.

Good luck to which "good people", Ross? Your fellow red untermenschen?

Oh no I used a bad word... tsk tsk... :rolleyes:

Glenlivet
Thursday, March 27th, 2003, 11:50 PM
Here I agree with you. I don't like anti-Russian sentiments either. Especially if they cannot be backed up with facts.

It's hard to deal with those that have flawed ideas, either deliberately or not. I thought that we are here to make all those of Europid racial descent feel welcome. Then we have those that might prefer a certain group within the Europid racial region, but that is anther discussion.

Comments like "Slavic mud" or such are very silly. I know how most Russians look like and the issue is to show it to others that don't know it with examples that can represent a land of around 145 (and I don't know how many millions are ethnic Russians) million well.

I don't know how large the population of "Ladogan", East-Baltic or Aisto-Nordics are. Russia is one of the most Nordic countries on the earth if Aisto-Nordics make a significant percentage of the population, and then we could argue what Nordic is.

Maybe you have a map from Bunak and you can then tell us about the folk stocks in Russia. I only know that Chernigov (but that is little Russia, and nowadays northern Ukraine, my info is from Lundman in 1943) have a lot of Gorids.

But I associate Nordic facial features with the Trönder (who are common in eastern Norway and southern Norrland, north of the Inner Scandinavian folk stock in Sweden, and they are also numerous in the very east of Sweden, near the capital, except the Västmanlandics who are the dominant type in the Uppland region, who Lundman considered to be a Phalian variety) and the Aisto-Nordic type. The Gothic (Göta type) Nordics who are only dominant in SW Sweden are lower-skulled and have more ash-blondism, weaker and more retreating jaws and shorter body stature and they are more gracile. There are not many differences other than that.

I will show you pictures of them when I have scanned pictures from "Dala-Allmogens Antropologi" by Bertil Lundman.






Originally posted by Prodigal Son
Its no use talking sense to NP88. She calls anyone living in Russia a "Slavic mud." I for one am sick of the anti-Russian hatemongering on this board. I am leaving. Good luck to all the good people here.

Evolved
Friday, March 28th, 2003, 06:53 AM
Who are his "fellow red untermenschen?" Communists and Nazis are both failures and neither are worth emulation. I'm certainly a superior human. :D

He seems to take issue with anyone who points out mongoloid traits in Russia, myself included. Has a problem with my Know Your Ladogans site, even though it's irrelevant to Russia-bashing. :rolleyes:

I think he purposely wants people to hate him so he can be a victim and post his "victim of slavophobia" threads. All he does is make actual incidents of slav-bashing seem trivia to people. The boy who cried wolf. x_nono

The only people I notice posting anti-Slav things: NordicPower88, Yggrasil, Reno and Arno. Von Braun made some FACTUAL statements regarding the geographic region known as Russia having mongoloid types, something everyone knows.

If he's antiracist and communist, why does he want to prove how Nordic Russians are? And why does he care what you think, NordicPower88? That's what I don't get. He must really value your opinion. :)


Originally posted by NordicPower88
Good luck to which "good people", Ross? Your fellow red untermenschen? Oh no I used a bad word... tsk tsk... :rolleyes:

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, November 27th, 2004, 04:41 AM
This Ladogan type is the worst defined of all "types". Does anybody have a picture of the type skull or a diagram of it? How can we properly discuss this without knowing what we are talking about? Not only is the Ladogan type ill-defined but its sub-types, Lapp, and Neo-Danubian have been argued. The only deriviatve which we all seem to agree on is the East Baltic.

Gareth
Wednesday, December 1st, 2004, 04:39 AM
This Ladogan type is the worst defined of all "types". Does anybody have a picture of the type skull or a diagram of it? How can we properly discuss this without knowing what we are talking about? Not only is the Ladogan type ill-defined but its sub-types, Lapp, and Neo-Danubian have been argued. The only deriviatve which we all seem to agree on is the East Baltic. lg found this picture of a Lapp skull:
http://da2.uib.no/asp/voy2002/bilete/voyb166.jpg

The Ladogan race still remains obscure though.

K.Falk
Thursday, January 20th, 2005, 11:40 PM
Does this woman belong to this category?

Schutzstaffelor
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 05:22 AM
She may have a point. Perhaps they are a stagnant strain that has been in existence since around the time of this split. That would explain them having traits from both races.

This theory reminds me of the duck-billed platypus, which is an evolutionary stagnant type, representing an intermediate form between reptiles and mammals.

what do you mean, remnants of a mongoloid/caucasoid split? the yellows are different from the whites just as much as blacks are. it doesn't matter that yellow tend to have lighter skin.

Allenson
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 03:22 PM
Does this woman belong to this category?

She looks East Baltid to me...

Allenson
Friday, January 21st, 2005, 03:35 PM
what do you mean, remnants of a mongoloid/caucasoid split? the yellows are different from the whites just as much as blacks are. it doesn't matter that yellow tend to have lighter skin.

Do you think that the major races evolved completely independent of one another?

Hardly. Whilst the biological reality of race is evident enough to me, it is equally evident that we all, when traced back far enough through the genetic record, come from a common stock.

Very generally speaking, the genetic record has pointed to the idea that there is a major division between sub-Saharan Africans and everyone else (Caucasoids, Mongoloids, etc.). So, there indeed was a time before Caucasoids and Mongoloids differentiated from one another and there also seems to be some remnent populations that appear, phenotypically, to still display this physical type.

Lastly, you won't hear from Von Braun anymore here. You'll notice that he is a "banned individual". He can however be found at the N0rdish P0rtal.

cruhmann
Saturday, January 22nd, 2005, 01:56 AM
According to Coon, the Ladogan subtype itself was fomed from a mixture of two earlier types, one a wide-faced low-orbitted mesocephal Cro-Magnon-like type, the other a small-statured, long-faced brachycephalic type with high orbits, which in some instances was at least partly Mongoloid. The first type, according to him, was the most common element in the blend.

Triglav
Saturday, January 22nd, 2005, 04:12 AM
According to Coon, the Ladogan subtype itself was fomed from a mixture of two earlier types, one a wide-faced low-orbitted mesocephal Cro-Magnon-like type, the other a small-statured, long-faced brachycephalic type with high orbits, which in some instances was at least partly Mongoloid.
Genetically speaking, this thesis doesn't hold water. There is no significant Mongoloid admixture in the areas where the so-called "Neo-Danubian" type is supposed to be present.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, January 23rd, 2005, 08:38 AM
Yes, Coon doesn't make sense on this one. What does McCulloch say?