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Euclides
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 03:14 AM
http://www.osterholm.info/swedes.html

''There is strong evidence that Swedish predecessors were migratory Thracians, an aggressive refugee "boat-people" who first came from the ancient city of Troy. Located in northwest Asia Minor (present-day northwest Turkey), ''

Awar
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 03:19 AM
As I once mentioned, and everyone laughed at me.... Scandinavians came from the Balkans :P

I don't understand why they mention Thracians at all, because I think these migrations happened earlier, but... I think it's the only logical migration route.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 04:19 AM
This is an interesting article. It seems to rely on a lot of name-play. Also, the date for the Trojan war was about 1350 B.C. wasn't it? That places it far back in this chronology. This history of the Swedes moves right along and somehow reminds me of Robert Howard's "Hyporborean Age".

Vojvoda
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 04:31 AM
Interesting.Hm, Svianar.Reminds me of svinjar(swine-herder) in Slavic.I assume it's the same in Germanic? :scratch No offence to anyone,just playing with words here :)

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 09:06 AM
This is an interesting article. It seems to rely on a lot of name-play. Also, the date for the Trojan war was about 1350 B.C. wasn't it? That places it far back in this chronology. This history of the Swedes moves right along and somehow reminds me of Robert Howard's "Hyporborean Age".

The date for the the Trojan war is unknown, it depends both on chronology and on the level which you associate with the Trojan war.

(And the language of Troy is usually thought to be Luwian, and certainly not Thracian.)

Alkman
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 10:44 AM
As I once mentioned, and everyone laughed at me.... Scandinavians came from the Balkans :P

Do you see a resemblance between Dan-aeans and... Danish people?? :D

Milesian
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:34 AM
Do you see a resemblance between Dan-aeans and... Danish people?? :D


Interesting article.
One if the ancient peoples who settled in Ireland were the Tuatha De Danaan who were supposed to have come by way of from Greece. The Milesians (the last ancient invaders who brought Gaelic culture) were allegedly from Scythia, and the Picts were allegedly from Thrace.


The Cruithnians came from the land of Thracia; they are the race of Gueleon, son of Ercal Hercules. Agathyrsi was their name. Six brothers of them came at first, viz., Solen, Ulfa, Nechtan, Drostan, Aengus, Leithenn. The cause of their coming was this, viz, Policornus, king of Thrace, fell in love with their sister, and proposed to take her without giving a dower. They after this passed across the Roman territory into France and built a city there, viz., Pictavis, called a pictis, i. e. from their arms. And the king of France fell in love with their sister.



I couldn't help but smile at this line though -


The term Scandia comes from the descendants of Ashkenaz (grandson of Noah in the Bible). Known as the Askaeni, they were the first peoples to migrate to northern Europe, naming the land Ascania after themselves. Latin writers and Greeks called the land Scandza or Scandia (now Scandinavia). Germanic tribes, such as the Teutons and Goths, are considered the descended tribes of the Askaeni and their first settlements

:D ;)

AryanKrieger
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:44 AM
http://www.osterholm.info/swedes.html

''There is strong evidence that Swedish predecessors were migratory Thracians, an aggressive refugee "boat-people" who first came from the ancient city of Troy. Located in northwest Asia Minor (present-day northwest Turkey), ''
This is not history but meta-history and needs to be treated as such. I don`t know why it is so difficult to accept that Swedes originated from Scandinavia/Germania. Why do we continuously look for an extra-European homeland for the Aryan race?

Gareth
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:49 AM
Do you see a resemblance between Dan-aeans and... Danish people?? :D Etymology of Denmark (translated from German)

When the Angles of Jutes moved to England 400 AD they left a widely unoccupied land behind them. Scandinavians from the north moved forward and called it




Danmǫrk > Dänemark

Mark means 'borderland'
and themselves


Danir > Danes, lat. Dani (Jordanes 3)
It's not far fetched to relate the country's name to


mnd. dan, mhd. tan 'forrest'
just compare it to the neighbouring region in Germany


Holstein < Holsten (Pl.) < Holcete <*holt-satjas 'forrest dwellers'.

Adam von Bremen 2,15 "Holcetae dicti a silvis quas accolunt = The Holsteiner are named after the forrests in which they live."

Marius
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 01:45 PM
This is not history but meta-history and needs to be treated as such. I don`t know why it is so difficult to accept that Swedes originated from Scandinavia/Germania. Why do we continuously look for an extra-European homeland for the Aryan race?

Because Aryan means extra-European. What is European for you? When and where was the first "European" human born? And how? Was he made by some Divinity? And if not, how did he arrived to be pale, since the believed first man found was not White and there is no relation to non-Whites, worse, non-Aryans?

Awar
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 01:46 PM
The Danube, Tuatha de Dannen, Teutons, Danes :P

Gareth
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 02:46 PM
Weren't the Danes called "black" vikings once by the Irish/British? This could derive from the aforementioned relationship between Dane and tan which was similar in meaning to the German word Tanne, Tannenbaum etc. (= fir/pine tree).

The Danube, Tuatha de Dannen, Teutons, Danes :P An etymologist would beg you on his knees to differ. ;)

"teut-
DEFINITION: Tribe.1a. Dutch, from Middle Dutch duutsch, German, of the Germans or Teutons; b. Plattdeutsch, from Old High German diutisc, of the people. Both a and b from Germanic *theudiskaz, of the people, derivative of *theud, people. 2. Suffixed form *teut-ons, “they of the tribe.” Teuton, from Latin Teutn, the Teutons, borrowed via Celtic from Germanic tribal name *theudanz. 3. Possibly Latin ttus, all, whole (? < “of the whole tribe”): total, tutti; factotum, teetotum. (In Pokorny tu- 1080.)"

"Danube River
Major European river, second in length only to the Volga. It begins in the Black Forest in Germany, flows through Austria and Hungary, and forms the border of many of the Balkan countries before ending at the Black Sea in Romania. It flowed through the heartland of the La Tene culture, which produced the earliest Celtic artifacts (6th-5th c. BCE).
Ironically, the etymology of the name becomes "river river"--Danube < Danuvius < Old Celtic Danu-yo < IE danu- "the river," which is also name of the Irish goddess Danu, regarded as the mother of the gods; it is likely also related to the name of the Welsh goddess Dôn, also regarded as the mother of the gods. It is possible that the Danube was regarded as a sacred river by the Celts, so much so that the gods were the children of the goddess of this important river."

No Code
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 08:27 PM
any chance that germanics were atlanto and mediterraind people that migrated to the north a long time ago ?

Oskorei
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:11 PM
Weird theory. If the Svea were descended from the Trojans, then how come that they didnt retain any of the Trojan religion, or language, or memory of the fall of Troy.

And how come there are no traces of the pre-Aesir and pre-Vanir religion that must have existed among the native Germanics? (I doubt that Hel and the giants were that original pre-Aesir pantheon, since the other IE peoples had pantheons that resemble and fit the Aesir very well.).

Awar
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 11:24 PM
Well, the native religions of Germanics, Celts, Balkanoids ( Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians etc. ) and Slavs was very similar.

The fact that they are so similar, yet so different, to me, implies that the carriers of these religions were once a single people who later split, and whose beliefs evolved with time, circumstances...

Northern Paladin
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 02:40 AM
http://www.osterholm.info/swedes.html

''There is strong evidence that Swedish predecessors were migratory Thracians, an aggressive refugee "boat-people" who first came from the ancient city of Troy. Located in northwest Asia Minor (present-day northwest Turkey), ''

Saying the Germanic homelands were in Asia is rather absurd. The last time I checked Swedes didn't resemble Greeks. Either in looks,religion, or culture.
Why can't we accept Sweden for what it is the womb of the Germanic tribes?

Zrinski
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 02:43 AM
Saying the Germanic homelands were in Asia is rather absurd. The last time I checked Swedes didn't resemble Greeks. Either in looks,religion, or culture.
Why can't we accept Sweden for what it is the womb of the Germanic tribes?

Your analogy has no sense. What does looks has to do with anything? Aryans(Indo-Europeans) moved from central Asia to Europe in waves. Swedes were no different.

Northern Paladin
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 02:43 AM
Well, the native religions of Germanics, Celts, Balkanoids ( Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians etc. ) and Slavs was very similar.

The fact that they are so similar, yet so different, to me, implies that the carriers of these religions were once a single people who later split, and whose beliefs evolved with time, circumstances...

What about Christianity,Islam, or even Buddhism? It's adherents aren't exactly racially homogenus.

Awar
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 02:56 AM
Saying the Germanic homelands were in Asia is rather absurd. The last time I checked Swedes didn't resemble Greeks. Either in looks,religion, or culture.
Why can't we accept Sweden for what it is the womb of the Germanic tribes?

Because the Germanic peoples didn't just appear out of thin air.
10.000 years ago, Sweden was an uninhabitable ice-block.



What about Christianity,Islam, or even Buddhism? It's adherents aren't exactly racially homogenus.


These religions are much newer, a phenomenon from a world completely different than the world when the first people entered Scandinavia.

Consider that now, there are some 6 billion people on the world,
while in 1918. there were just over 1 billion inhabitants.

Europe once was much less populated, much more forested, etc. etc.
There's no comparison of that world, to the post-Roman world, or to the modern world of quick transportations etc.

I'm pretty sure that there were no domesticated horses during the early
populating of Scandinavia. Not to mention the fact that Indo-European languages weren't the first in Europe or Scandinavia.

Northern Paladin
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:01 AM
Your analogy has no sense. What does looks has to do with anything? Aryans(Indo-Europeans) moved from central Asia to Europe in waves. Swedes were no different.

Don't we resemble our ancestors more than others. Isn't Race based on differences in Phenotype(looks).

Based on your kind of reasoning the Germanic Homeland could be traced to Africa!

Northern Paladin
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:04 AM
Because the Germanic peoples didn't just appear out of thin air.
10.000 years ago, Sweden was an uninhabitable ice-block.



These religions are much newer, a phenomenon from a world completely different than the world when the first people entered Scandinavia.

Consider that now, there are some 6 billion people on the world,
while in 1918. there were just over 1 billion inhabitants.

Europe once was much less populated, much more forested, etc. etc.
There's no comparison of that world, to the post-Roman world, or to the modern world of quick transportations etc.

I'm pretty sure that there were no domesticated horses during the early
populating of Scandinavia. Not to mention the fact that Indo-European languages weren't the first in Europe or Scandinavia.

Nevertheless the Germanic people were already a distinct group before Roman times.

Of course the people of Europe in Ancient times were more related to each other as the Gene pool was smaller than.

Awar
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:08 AM
Nevertheless the Germanic people were already a distinct group before Roman times.

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of who populated Scandinavia in the first place. The 'I' haplogroup, which originated in the Balkans, however, speaks for itself.


Of course the people of Europe in Ancient times were more related to each other as the Gene pool was smaller than.

A smaller gene pool, but also, greater distances between certain peoples,
or completely blurred lines between other peoples.

Zrinski
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 03:09 AM
Don't we resemble our ancestors more than others. Isn't Race based on differences in Phenotype(looks).

Our ancestors(and all white Europeans) came from Asia. Iran=land of the Aryans


Based on your kind of reasoning the Germanic Homeland could be traced to Africa!

Germanic homeland? :lol

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 07:36 AM
The date for the the Trojan war is unknown, it depends both on chronology and on the level which you associate with the Trojan war.

(And the language of Troy is usually thought to be Luwian, and certainly not Thracian.)

My understanding is that it is Troy 6, with Troy 7 being on the bottom. There has been some confirmation in Assyrian clay tablets naming King Priam and "Alexandros" (Paris) both of whom are claimed to have just died.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 08:18 AM
My understanding is that it is Troy 6, with Troy 7 being on the bottom. There has been some confirmation in Assyrian clay tablets naming King Priam and "Alexandros" (Paris) both of whom are claimed to have just died.

They werent Assyrian, but Hittite texts.

The usual identification of Homer's Troy is with level Troy VIIA, which is usually dated to around 1,200 BC, or around the fall of the Hittite Empire. A further confirmation of this is the mention in the Odyssey of the assault on Egypt, in the lifetime of Odysseus, which would make the Trojan War happen during the reign of Ramesses III, and the Hittite Empire is confirmed by the Egyptians at this time to have been laid waste, there were a lot of changes around that time in the region.

Oskorei
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 10:32 AM
Why can't we accept Sweden for what it is the womb of the Germanic tribes?
According to Julius Evola and the Indian scientist (?) Tilak, the Aryans (Germanics included) originated at or close to the North Pole, in a land called Hyperborea and/or Thule. After some sort of cataclysm that made Hyperborea uninhabitable, they had to migrate southwards. One wave into the Americas, and one wave into Europe.

Of course this was before recorded history though.

Athelf
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 01:17 PM
Here's a little information that I found about Sweden...

Sweden = 70% Hallstatt Nordic (Carleton Coon described Sweden as a refuge area for the classic Nordic race), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest coastal region, Upper Palelithic remains or UP), 10% Falish (most common in Dalarna (Kopparberg) and the southwest coastal region, UP+Nordic mix), 5% Tronder (most common near the central Norwegian border, UP+Nordic mix), 5% East Baltic (UP+Nordic mix) = 70% Nordic / 30% UP+Nordic mix (UP+N)

Awar
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 01:31 PM
1. If they had originated in the extreme cold of the north pole, they wouldn't be Swedes, but Yetis, or at least, they would look like Eskimoes.

2. Please, Athelf, that's an excerpt from McCulloch's guesswork. It's not a real information, because McCulloch is neither an anthropologist, nor has he been in any
of the countries he 'classified'.

Selchuk
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 10:27 PM
http://www.osterholm.info/swedes.html

''There is strong evidence that Swedish predecessors were migratory Thracians, an aggressive refugee "boat-people" who first came from the ancient city of Troy. Located in northwest Asia Minor (present-day northwest Turkey), ''

This is almost impossible. Culturally there is not any single relation with Trojans and Swedish people. Even in Roman times Germanic people could not build a city such as Troia and we have very well information about their living style via Roman historians. The oldest city in Sweden is said to be Birka dated back to 8th century, 2000 years after Trojan war.

AryanKrieger
Monday, November 1st, 2004, 10:38 PM
Our ancestors(and all white Europeans) came from Asia. Iran=land of the Aryans



Germanic homeland? :lol
Care to state your supporting evidence?

Evolved
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 01:28 AM
The majority of Europeans do not descend from Aryans at all, and those who do descend from Aryans (probably some Russians and Poles) are only partially Aryan. I always thought Scandinavians & Celts originated in Central Europe.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 01:49 AM
1. If they had originated in the extreme cold of the north pole, they wouldn't be Swedes, but Yetis, or at least, they would look like Eskimoes.


Oh really?
I never imagined the Inuit outshining every else in pilosity due to the freezing cold of Arctica: their skin is remarkeable smooth and lacking in body hair.

It's not so much that the Swedes would look as Inuit people as well the reverse, insofar they got cranial character highly comparable to Combe Capelle and Chancelade, both alledged to have contributed to the formation of the Nordic race.

The Blond Beast
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 02:21 AM
According to Julius Evola and the Indian scientist (?) Tilak, the Aryans (Germanics included) originated at or close to the North Pole, in a land called Hyperborea and/or Thule. After some sort of cataclysm that made Hyperborea uninhabitable, they had to migrate southwards. One wave into the Americas, and one wave into Europe.

Sounds like Welteislehre. :D

Awar
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 02:31 AM
btw. The word 'Hyperborea' is Greek, it used to label the peoples who lived north of them, not people from polar regions.

I hope you understand that the word 'Nordic' is an anthropology label for a certain type, the name doesn't refer to the origin of such types.

Hyperborean might sound all cool and stuff, but it's not the name of the ancient kingdom from where the Nordics came.

Conan is not a historical figure.

Oskorei
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 09:45 AM
btw. The word 'Hyperborea' is Greek, it used to label the peoples who lived north of them, not people from polar regions.

I hope you understand that the word 'Nordic' is an anthropology label for a certain type, the name doesn't refer to the origin of such types.

Hyperborean might sound all cool and stuff, but it's not the name of the ancient kingdom from where the Nordics came.

Conan is not a historical figure.
Of course the Hyperboreans didnt call themselves Hyperboreans, or Nordics. The historical distance is so vast that the name they used has been forgotten. It isnt impossible that they called it Thule though, since that name figures in both the Americas (the Aztecs claimed to be descended from Tula if Im not mistaken) and Europe (Thule, Ultima Thule). My point is that there are these legends of polar origins among most "Aryan" peoples, and also some Amerindian peoples, and Evola and Tilak tried to reconstruct the origins of that.

Conan doesnt belong in the Hyperborean age, he belongs in the Hyborian age if we are to believe RE Howard ;)

Didnt Hyperborea label the people who lived the most to the north though, not just any northern peoples?

Awar
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 09:55 AM
Nordics are not cold adapted. Nothing about their build is.
Eskimoes, on the other hand, or penguins are. Notice the short legs :D

Awar
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 10:47 AM
@Oskorei:

Blondism :D
http://www.aad.gov.au/asset/unusual_penguins/half_colour_royal.jpg

Oskorei
Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004, 10:56 AM
@Oskorei:

Blondism :D
http://www.aad.gov.au/asset/unusual_penguins/half_colour_royal.jpg
Hyperborean super-nord, possibly with some UP:icist admixture.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 04:14 AM
Nordics are not cold adapted. Nothing about their build is.
Eskimoes, on the other hand, or penguins are. Notice the short legs :D

What kind of climate are Nords adapted to than? Temperate?

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 05:54 AM
Nordics are not cold adapted. Nothing about their build is.
Eskimoes, on the other hand, or penguins are. Notice the short legs :D

A type can be cold adapted and long-limbed under certain circumstances, and besides Nordics and the first moderns from Europe, this applies to the North American plains and to the interior of Terra del Fuego.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 05:59 AM
What kind of climate are Nords adapted to than? Temperate?

Awar's point is that he expects populations to be shorter and stockier the further they are from the tropics, but he's wrong.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 09:04 AM
Awar's point is that he expects populations to be shorter and stockier the further they are from the tropics, but he's wrong.

Care to elaborate? Miss know it all. ;) And with all seriousness I know you do!

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, November 3rd, 2004, 12:45 PM
Care to elaborate? Miss know it all. ;) And with all seriousness I know you do!

Well think of what I wrote, its about what these populations have in common. "A type can be cold adapted and long-limbed under certain circumstances, and besides Nordics and the first moderns from Europe, this applies to the North American plains and to the interior of Terra del Fuego."

The Plains Indians were famously hunters of American bison, and the interior Fuegans were hunters of guanaco (the coastal Fuegans who didn't hunt guanaco had a stockier build), and Upper Paleolithic Europeans were hunters of the megafauna and many early moderns from Europe are from the Central European plains. Where we find them in a cold climate, long-limbed proportions seem to be those of hunters of large game in plains.

According to Weaver, the pelvis and the shape of the femur are a better indicator of climate than the limb proportions. His comparison of pelvis shapes in modern populations found that there was a seperation reflecting a difference in climate, between Aleutians, British and Inuit from colder climates, and Australians and Subsaharan Africans from warmer climates.

In his analysis of femur shape using these populations but adding neanderthals and near-moderns from Palestine, he got the same arrangement but the near-moderns grouped with the warm climate moderns, and the neanderthals were within the cold climate moderns.

Cold adapted femur bones show larger femoral heads and distal ends relative to length, thicker and rounder shafts, and lower neck-shaft angles, and the cold adapted pelvis form has wider pelvic apertures, longer pubic bones, more flared and more posteriorly rotated iliac blades, more laterally pointing anterior-superior iliac spines and more anteriorly located iliac tubercles.