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View Full Version : Dark Hair in Nordid: Norðvestrid Pigmentation Issues



Willowsprout
Monday, October 18th, 2004, 08:27 AM
[Attn: I split this off from the Nordic Beauties thread located herein: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=82925#post82925 (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=82925#post82925) . -- +Suomut+ ;) :) ]

For a small country its got a good number of nice looking people these perhaps are not the greatest examples.The dark hair is probably a result of the influence of Celtic folks in Iceland.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ic.html

Background:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/dictionary.jpg (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html#2028) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/graphics/listing.jpg (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2028.html)
Settled by Norwegian and Celtic (Scottish and Irish) immigrants during the late 9th and 10th centuries A.D.

Every Country has beautiful and not so beautiful woman to base it on a couple of pictures is really not fair.
P.S I find an English man's accent sexy .

+Suomut+
Monday, October 18th, 2004, 03:37 PM
For a small country its got a good number of nice looking people these perhaps are not the greatest examples....
Every Country has beautiful and not so beautiful woman to base it on a couple of pictures is really not fair.Indeed, IMO, most Icelanders I've ever seen are good-looking (you and yours included :thumbsup ). :) True, also, every country and ethnicity has both attractive and unattractive members. ;)


The dark hair is probably a result of the influence of Celtic folks in Iceland. Settled by Norwegian and Celtic (Scottish and Irish) immigrants during the late 9th and 10th centuries A.D.I consider this notion of dark-haired (whether brown or black) Icelanders being descendants of Celts to be an old-wives tale. I say this because there are now and have always been dark(brown or black)-haired folks in both Norge and Danmark (the 2 primary sources of Teutonic immigration to Iceland); thus, who's to say all modern dark-haired Icelanders owe their dark manes strictly to Ireland or Scotland?? No one can, it's all sheer (and often biased) speculation. ;) One must qualify which kind of dark hair one is talking about too. Brown is, of course, a form of dark hair. That said, both Scandinavia and the "British Isles" are chock-full of brunettes, so, in that since, Iceland is merely a reflection of BOTH areas in that regard. What is REALLY unusual is BLACK hair, since that hair color is VERY UNUSUAL among Norðvestrids. Like the young lady in the right of this Lazytown photo...

http://www.lazytown.com/media/content/products/products/eventsandmedia/economy/9.jpg

...perhaps she dyes (who knows)...but maybe she doesn't. Regardless, that kind of hair pigmentation (black) is very unusual among Norðvestrid ethnic groups (across the board...whether Teutonic or Celtic {e.g., I've only VERY RARELY seen black hair on Irish or Scottish folks in America--it's just VERY UNCOMMON}). The question I have is how has such hair color come about among Norðvestrids? Also, how many black-haired folks are there among Icelanders? Not very many, surely.


Also, the patently "semi-Mongoloid" (see below) individuals in Iceland are also a factor in the black-haired population therein. Björk is the epitome of that specific kind or 'race' of black-haired Icelanders http://unit.bjork.com/specials/pics/frame.htm ; http://unit.bjork.com/specials/pics/misc/10_2000Paper_Richard_Phibbs000.jpg . Now, you've been to Iceland, sweetheart, you tell me, how many "Björks" did you see while there!? lol ;) NOT MANY, I'm sure. ;) :)


Yes, there are many more beautiful women in Sweden, Norway and Denmark.The same deal that applies to Iceland/Icelanders also applies to these countries/ethnicities...what you say is true; but also, there are 'ugly' women from these countries too. ;) I know, I've seen 'em, and YOU have too! lol :P ;)


Iceland has a minority of black-haired individuals and some whom look suspiciously semi-Mongoloid (or Lapp). Even the Swedish ethnologist Nordenstreng mentioned that.Did Nordenstreng ever take the time to mention the similar-looking (black-haired suspiciously semi-Mongoloid {or Lapp}) individuals which exist (in fact and throughout history) in both Sverige and Norge? ;-) :-)

Glenlivet
Tuesday, October 19th, 2004, 01:10 AM
He did not claim that they are not found in Sweden or Norway. The population in Iceland is much smaller, and the outcome should therefore be more visible in the Germanic (Norse) and British Isles Celtic (and perhaps racially pre-Celtic) population.

Iceland do not have 1 cm under the Swedish-Norwegian average height, and on average, Breadth-Length Index (CI) under 80, under 7 % of brown eyes and Height-Length Index (HLI) under 72,5. Northern England, Scotland and Ireland do not have under 7 % brown eyes (on the anthropological maps that I have seen), but they do have the same tall average stature, BLI under 80 and HLI under 72,5. Ireland does not have blood allele q under 10 % (which mean less Scando-Nordid and more Western European Upper Palaeolithic, can be both from Palaeo-Atlantid and North-Atlantid populations). Iceland is therefore more pronouncedly Nordid than Scotland and Ireland, and probably also more than most regions of England, but not more than Central-Eastern Norway, and all of Sweden (except where there are Lapps, in the northermost region).

Lundman (Nordens Rastyper, p. 53, 1940) addressed the issue of dark hair in Iceland. Lundman wrote:

"Det på Island ofta förekommande mörka håret i förening med ljusa ögon kan möjligen komma från Sogn eller Voss, hellre dock från Irland - där den kombinationen är vanligare än på andra håll i Europa. Blodgruppsfördelningen liknar också mer västra Storbrittanien än Norge. Svaga inslag av norska alpiner, ja t. o. m. kanske lappar märkas här och där. I stort är dock islänningarnas hästammning ifrån Norges mera nordiska bygder oomtvistlig. - Färöarna som koloniserats kort före Island ha en liknande rassammansättning, dock ingår i den något mindre aristokratiska befolkningen ett något starkare inslag av norska alpiner."

My translation of the quote taken from Lundman (from Swedish to English):

The dark hair that occur in Iceland in association with light eyes may possibly come from Sogn or Voss, however rather from Ireland - where the combination is more common than in other parts of Europe. The blood group distribution also resemble western Great Britain more than Norway. Weak elements of Norwegian alpines, well, perhaps also including Lapps are noticed here and there. It is nevertheless indisputable that the Icelandic by large originate from Norway's more Nordid district. - The Faroe Islands that were colonised shortly before Iceland have a similar racial composition, yet a strong element of Norwegian alpines are part of the somewhat less aristocratic population.

This means that Iceland also have North-Atlantid from the British Isles. Dark hair, light eyes and tall stature is characteristic for the Scottish Highlands and Ireland (Lundman, Jordens Människoraser och Folkstammar, 1943). The North-Atlantid have dark hair in relation to their often light eyes (furthermore, Lundman wrote gray), but it should not be black. Lundman (Jordens Folkstammar, p. 31, 1988) describe their hair as very dark cendré (ashen). Lundman (Jordens Folkstammar, p, 66, 1988) also briefly mentioned the racial composition of Faroe Islands and Iceland:

"Färöarna likna både V Norge och Island. Det sistnämnda, som är bra undersökt, har starka nordatlantida inslag - ej minst märkbara i blogruppsfördelningen, som genom ett stort undersökningsmaterial måste anses nästan helt överensstämma med Irlands och NV Skottlands. (Så och Färöarna.). Tydligen har den delvis historiskt väl kända frivilliga eller "ofrivilliga" (trälar!) inflyttningen hit från dessa trakter varit större än man vetat. Dessutom har väl denna förtryckta klass, som så ofta annars, varit den barnrikare och därför så småningom övervägt. Till ögonfärgen är dock islänningarna ännu ljusare och har mer sällan konvexa näsor än dessa irländska "nordkelter". Skillnaden i typ mellan nordmän, islänningar och irländare är dock rätt ringa, kanske bortsett från hårfärgen - något som även generellt gäller skillnader mellan nordras och nordatlantid ras, så därur är ej så mycket att hämta."

My translation of the quote taken from Lundman (from Swedish to English):

The Faroe Islands resemble both W Norway and Iceland. The last-mentioned, that is examined well, have strong North-Atlantid elements - not the least noticeable in the blood group distribution, that through a large investigation material must be considered to almost entirely agree with Ireland's and NW Scotland's (thus also Faroe Islands.). Evidently the well known partially historical voluntary or "involuntary" (thralls!) immigration here from these districts been greater than what has been known. This oppressed class has moreover, as is often otherwise the case, been the more fertile and therefore came in majority little by little. To the eye colour the Icelandic are albeit still lighter and have less often convex noses than these Irish "North Celts". The difference in type between Northmen, Icelandic and Irish is nevertheless small, maybe apart from the hair colour - something that also generally apply to differences between Nordic race and North-Atlantid race, so there is not much to gain out of there.

Very dark hair in Sweden may have different origins. It does not come with the same type or even sub-race. It is Varid (South Lapp) in Northern Sweden. The origin is a form of Alpinid in Southernmost Skåne, Southern Sweden (through Danes?). The origin of dark pigmentation in the Inner Scandinavian folk stock is usually Tydal. Tydal is a robust, tall, proto-morphic type related to the primitive Mediterranids, whom according to Lundman in Southwestern Europe developed into (west)-Alpinids, but did not become reduced in Western Scandinavia and perhaps neither as Palaeo-Atlantids, which is how they are found as a racial remnant here and there in Western Europe (mainly in parts of Wales and Ireland). The Tydal type is nowadays hybridised with the incoming Nordids. The colouration of the Tydals is therefore not too dark, hair is very dark brown, but not black, Fischer 4, thus blackish brown, in the middle aged, probably coarser than among Nordids, albeit seldom not wavy. The eyes are are in all probability light brown or dark-mixed (in gray-green, not yellow-green), but is nowadays, as it seems, in only weakly hybridised Nordid individuals often dark gray (Saller no. S3). The skin is coarse and of some gray-yellow colour.

The Wallonian immigrants, led by the great Louis De Geer came with many skilled miners to Inner Scandinavia shortly after 1600. These were of mainly Nordid-Mediterranid-Alpinid (and traces of Dinarid, and other foreign strains) sub-races. They have brought with them darker shades of brown hair (and maybe even black or at least blackish brown, Fischer 4).

There is also black hair among tattar descendants. Tattare are a hybrid stock between Swedes, Gypsies (Romany) amd to a small extent Finns. The original Gypsies were a composite of south - and southwest Asian races. Tattare got except the original Indid-Arabid Gypsy type also strains of Veddoid (or Indo-Melanid or more likely of the Malid transitionary between these races). Traces of the latter type have been found in Dalarna. Indications that make us recognise tattare are the black hair, the extremely narrow face and the convex noses. (also head breadth under 140 mm for men belong here).

The main issue is that very dark hair (and absolutely not black) is not a trait from Svear and Götar (These are mentioned in Beowulf, Cornelius Tacitus or Jordanes).

:)






Did Nordenstreng ever take the time to mention the similar-looking (black-haired suspiciously semi-Mongoloid {or Lapp}) individuals which exist (in fact and throughout history) in both Sverige and Norge? ;-) :-)

SouthernBoy
Wednesday, October 20th, 2004, 03:17 AM
Does Lundman clump all aboriginal British inhabitants in the Nord-Atlantid and Paleo-Atlantid groups? Does Lundman include what Coon calls Brunn in his Paleo-Atlantid, I noticed a description about them being both ruggedly masculine and dark-haired?

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 07:14 AM
He seem to see a lot of that in the native Britons.

Lundman's Palaeo-Atlantid could be the same as Coon's Brünn. That is possible. I have not seen a description where he wite "ruggedly masculine", but they are coarse.

"Now we shall briefly outline the most important facts known to us of the still older history of the races of Europe. The present geographical distribution of these European races is shown in Map 17. The Palaeo-Atlantids are relatively unmixed and unaltered descendants of the Palaeolithic West European and North African Cro-Magnid race. The Cro-Magnids followed northwards the retreating ice boundary at the end of the Pleistocene. They lived as specialized hunters of the fauna inhabiting this part of Europe.
The Palaeo-Atlantids were never as depigmented as the Faelish and Scando-Nordid tribes who migrated after them. The latter two races have originated from other, later, closely-related Cro-Magnid proto-groups. The Faelids and Scando-Nordids were already at that time racially and culturally somewhat more highly developed. They gradually forced the Palaeo-Atlantids back into their present, barren places of refuge."

B Lundman, The Races and Peoples of Europe, chapter The racial history of Europe: an outline, passage The Origin of the Races of Europe, 1977.

He place them in Brittany, Ireland, Cornwall, western parts of Wales and the Scottish Highlands.

The anthropologist Renato Biasutti used Coon's examples of Brünn men and he call them Irish sub-race of Nordic. Lundman saw something separate in the Palaeo-Atlantids from Nordids. However, if we go back long enough in time hese western European populations should be related, as regards to Faelish and Scando-Nordid he wrote that "the latter two races have originated from other, later, closely-related Cro-Magnid proto-groups".

I believe that it is relevant for our discussion of Nordid origins (see above on Faelish and Scando-Nordid) to reproduce (slight change) a passage that I wrote in another post.

The physical anthropology of Western - and Southern Scandinavia, Northwestern Germany and the Low countries.

The kitchen-midden (køkkenmødding/kökkenmödding) culture, partially blended with Maglamose is the starting point of the Neolithic culture of Northern Europe. The cranias found in the kitchen-midden culture was without exceptiong long-headed and to the type of Cro-Magnon. Only a skull on Casmose on Själland is short-skulled. The short skulls are more numerous at the sites of Maglemose. But also here one can find long-headed of Nordid type. (Nilsen und Kossina, Indogermanen I.)

The kitchen-midden culture strectched over the Danish Islands, Jylland, Schleswig-Holstein and Southern Sweden. In Northern France, Belgium and Southern England we find a related culture to the flint culture in Denmark. What has been called The Nordic Stone Age - and Megalithic culture developed in the younger Stone Age from the kökkenmödding (kitchen-midden) culture. The Megalithic stone graves are found in Southern Sweden, Denmark and Northern Germany, a Neolithic cultural region.

This culture had its centre in the West Baltic countries and stretched out over the North German lowlands and south to the mountains in Mitteleuropa, well, all the way to the Alps, where the youngest layers of "pålbyggnader" (Pfahlbauten) in the Swiss and Austrian Alps, evidently bear evidence of a Nordic element.

The racial condition (see Schliz and Åberg) of most Nordid North Germanics go back to Cro-Magnon (long-headed, low-skulled, vertical facial profile, jaw not jutting, high-rooted nose, strongly developed chin, broad and low face, and broad and low orbits). Only a form of Trönder, the Hälsingland (West-Baltid), is evidence (with their significantly higher skulls) of a stronger (not fully!) component from the Battle Axe people who came from a southeastern stream.

The most essential characteristics are the long skull form with a jutting occiput, long narrow face with not projecting cheekbones, developed browridges, a somewhat sloping forehead, high, narrow nose and a developed chin. Alongside this in Denmark's and Sweden's stone dolmens and passage-graves yet another type, with a lower face and compressed orbits it reminds us of the Cro-Magnon. It is also found with the traits of the type with longer face. So we see two long-headed types, that in a composition created the Nordid, in that some characteristics, that been genetically dominant, took over. (see Krauss-Kreitschek: Raskunskap, 1926)

In this way the Scando-Nordid (Göta, Trönder and Västmanland, which can be seen as a variety of Fälish according to the Swedish anthropologist Bertil Lundman) and Fälish (or Phalian/Faelid) varieties, which various physical anthropologist named in more or less similar ways, have been formed. The Southwest Scandinavian (where Göta predominate) folk stock is closest (look at haplotype frequencies, I recommend a page by a certain Ken Nordtvedt) to the Fälish which predominate in Northern Germany west of Elbe.

SouthernBoy, thanks for bringing up the subject.






Does Lundman clump all aboriginal British inhabitants in the Nord-Atlantid and Paleo-Atlantid groups? Does Lundman include what Coon calls Brunn in his Paleo-Atlantid, I noticed a description about them being both ruggedly masculine and dark-haired?

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 07:26 AM
"One of the main problems is that of the origin of the Icelanders: did the greater part of the colonists come from Norway as the Landnámabok tells us, or from Ireland? The second alternative seems to be supported by sereological works [Bjarnson et al 1973; Constandse-Westermann 1972; Walter and Pálsson 1973], which all point at the similarity of the Icelanders with Irish and Scottish people. Thompson (1973), on the basis of serological data, calculated the Norse contribution to the population of Iceland at 2 to 7 percent. But this is in contradiction no only to the Landnámabok, archaeological findings, and the Scandinavian language and traditions of the Icelanders, but also to physical-anthropological data: measurements and particularly pigmentation of the Icelanders resemble more closely those of the Scandinavian peoples than of the Irish (Pálsson 1974; Pálsson and Schwidetzky 1973d)."

Ilse Schwidetzky, Physical Anthropology of European Populations, Mouton Publishers, 1980.

Dedicated to Willowsprout and +Suomut+.

SouthernBoy
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 11:09 PM
Thank you Volksdeutscher. I have been unable to find that information. I enjoy hearing sources cited other than the limited "The Races of Europe" on the Society for Nordish Physical Anthropology website. I would be interested to get a copy of some of Lundman's works, although I do not know if it would be difficult to obtain one in English. Thank you again Volksdeutscher! :)

Glenlivet
Friday, October 22nd, 2004, 09:02 AM
You have me to translate passages.

My wish is to make an anthropological website some day, using Lundman's material to a large extent, mainly about Nordid types. I think that he is one of the best for understanding the physical anthropology of Scandinavia (well maybe even the Nordic countries, in the geographical, not racial sense). The Nordic spirit is in Lundman. He wrote in a concise and orderly manner. From the pictures I saw of him he was Göta type.

It is easy to get his books in Scandinavia. They are sold through antique bookstores. His last book is from 1988. Some of his books are in German. Do you know German?

A lot of the beginning with some important terminology in physical anthropology are from Swedes like Retzius and Lundborg. Sweden had the first biggest racial institute (Rasbiologiska institutet or Statens institut för rasbiologi) in the world supported by the government at the time.

:)


I would be interested to get a copy of some of Lundman's works, although I do not know if it would be difficult to obtain one in English.

SouthernBoy
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 02:36 AM
I have mores questions for you Volksdeutscher. Does Lundman try to explain why the Paleo-Atlantid are less depigmented than the Faeish and Scando-Nordids, were they more coastally settled than Scando-Nordid and Faelish? I have read before that the supply of vitamins in fish halts depigmentation, I realize that this theory has been debunked by several authors but would like to include it. It appears to me that Paleo-Atlantids are more physically evolved to live in Europe, what is your thoughts on this? Why do you think the hair is darker amongst Paleo-Atlantids, but the eyes are mostly light-mixed?