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BodewinTheSilent
Saturday, July 20th, 2002, 10:43 PM
"Li Chi found the range of variation of the cephalic index of the Hou-chia-chuang male population to be a possible indication of the non-homogenity of the Hou-chia-chuang collection. C. S. Coon believed he saw in this population a mixture of Northern European and one or more Mongoloid types."

Kwang-Chih Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press, 1980), p. 332.


"Wheel making, a technology associated with war chariots, is the most interesting trait because it suggests an Indo-European invasion. With the Indo-Europeans, the horse enters history. Wherever these chariots appear, among Celts in the British Isles, or among Aryans in India, they are a sign of Indo-European conquest. It would be surprising if similar chariots found in the tombs of Shang kings did not signify the Indo-European conquest of Lung-Shan China and an outside stimulus for the rise of civilization there, of which the Shang dynasty is the first stage. Certainly the Chinese royal dragon is nothing if not a mythic transmogrification of the horse. Even the ancient Chinese word for horse, mar, suggests comparison with the Irish marc and the English mare."

Leon E. Stover, China: An Anthropological Perspective, (Goodyear Publishing Inc., 1976), p. 35.


Aryans: Culture Bearers to China
New Evidence Of Ancient European Migration to the Orient
by Mark Deavin

In July 1996 two students wading in the Columbia River at Kennewick, Washington, stumbled across the skeletal remains of a middle-aged European male. At first anthropologists presumed they had discovered a pioneer who had died in the late 1800's. But radiocarbon dating subsequently showed that the skeleton was a remarkable 9,300 years old. In fact, "Kennewick Man" is the latest in a series of ancient skeletal discoveries which are giving rise to the theory that some of the earliest inhabitants of North America were Europeans who migrated from the Eurasian continent via a land bridge in the Bering Sea near the end of the last Ice Age, about 12,000 years ago. Dr. Robert Bonnischen, director of the Center for the Study of the First Americans at Oregon State University, believes that "Kennewick Man" helps cast doubt on the accuracy of the term "paleo-Indian," which is usually used to describe this period of American prehistory. "Maybe some of these guys were really just paleo-American," he admits.

Of course, such facts pose a major challenge to the Politically Correct version of history, which promotes the idea that White Americans shamefully stole their country from its supposed Indian owners. Not surprisingly, therefore, attempts have been made to prevent the facts about "Kennewick Man" from being made public. Encouraged by the Clinton government, American Indians have made a claim on the skeleton using a 1990 Federal law intended to protect their grave sites. Their declared intention is to bury it immediately in a secret location and prevent further scientific examination and DNA testing. However, eight U.S. anthro pol ogists, who claim that the Indians and the Federal government fear the implications of the discovery, began a legal battle in October 1996 to prevent the secret burial from taking place.

In fact, "Kennewick Man" is an important addition to the growing body of evidence which suggests that during the period of the Upper Paleolithic, between about 10,000 and 35,000 years ago, Whites -- i.e., men indistinguishable from modern Europeans -- lived not only in Europe, but also in a band stretching across northern Asia to the Pacific. In Siberia and other eastern regions they were eventually displaced and absorbed by Mongoloid peoples, although isolated pockets of European genes have survived in northern Asia until this day. The mixed-raced Ainu people of Japan are an example.

The credibility of this theory has been dramatically strengthened in recent years by the remarkable discovery of more than 100 naturally mummified European corpses, ranging from 2,400 to 4,000 years old, in the Tarim Basin region of western China. Amazingly well preserved by the arid climate in the area, the mummies give evidence of a Nordic people with an advanced culture, splendidly attired in colorful robes, trousers, boots, stockings, coats, and hats. In one large tomb the corpses of three women and one man were discovered. The man, about 55 years old at death, was about six feet tall and had yellowish brown hair that was turning white. One of the better preserved women was close to six feet tall, with yellowish-brown hair dressed in braids.

Items found with the bodies included fur coats, leather mittens, and an ornamental mirror, while the woman also held bags containing small knives and herbs, probably for use as medicines. At Cherchen, on the southern edge of the Taklamakan Desert, the mummified corpse of an infant was found, probably no more than three months old at the time of death, wrapped in brown wool and with its eyes covered with small, flat stones. Next to the head was a drinking cup made from a bovine horn and an ancient "baby bottle" made from a sheep's teat that had been cut and sewn so it could hold milk. One male mummy even had traces of a surgical operation on his neck, with the incision being sewn up with horsehair stitches.

Several European mummies had in fact already been found in the Tarim Basin area early in this century, one of which was reminiscent of a Welsh or Irish woman, and another of a Bohemian burgher. All were dressed in fine clothing, including jaunty caps with feathers stuck in them that bore a striking resemblance to alpine headgear still worn in western Europe today. But these earlier discoveries, not much more than 2,000 years old, were dismissed as the bodies of isolated Europeans who had happened to stray into the territory and so were regarded as being of no cultural or historical significance.

Indeed, modern scholars, attuned to Politically Correct historical fashion, have tended to downplay evidence of any early trade or contact between China and the West during this period, regarding the development of Chinese civilization as an essentially homegrown affair sealed off from outside influences. Any diffusion of people and culture, moreover, was held to have been from east to west, with the Europeans being civilized by the Chinese. The very eminent prehistorian Gordon Childe, for example, in 1958 summed up European prehistory as being the story of "the irradiation of European barbarism by Oriental civilization."[1]

But the latest mummy finds in the Tarim Basin region are too numerous, too ancient, and too revealing to dismiss in this way. Most important, they have helped to reopen the debate about the role which Europeans played in the origins of civilization in China, with some archeologists again beginning to argue that Europeans might have been responsible for introducing into China such basic items as the wheel and the first metal objects. This is actually reaffirming theories that were advocated at the beginning of the century, but which were subsequently buried in an avalanche of Political Correctness. In 1912, for example, the distinguished Cambridge scholar A.C. Haddon noted in The Wanderings of Peoples the possibility that the progressive element of the old Chinese civilization was due to the migration of a semi-cultured people from the west.

Now, according to Dr. Han Kangxin, a physical anthropologist at the Institute of Archeology in Beijing, the skeletal and mummified evidence clearly points to the fact that the earliest inhabitants of the Tarim Basin region were White people related to the Cro-Magnons of Paleolithic Europe. This theory is supported by Dr. Victor Mair, a specialist in ancient Asian languages and cultures at the University of Pennsylvania, who stimulated the major search which found the mummies. He has emerged as the main advocate of the theory that large groups of Europeans were present in the Tarim Basin long before the area's present inhabitants, suggesting that Turkic speakers did not move into the area until about the eighth century B.C. Subsequently, he believes, the newcomers displaced the Europeans, although the major ethnic group in the area today, the Uygur, includes people with unusually fair hair and complexions.

Actually, evidence of a now-extinct Indo-European people who lived in central Asia has long existed. Known as Tocharians, they are described more accurately as Arsi, which is cognate with Sanskrit arya and Old Persian ariya, meaning "Aryan": "that which is noble or worthy." Their language, which has similarities to the Celtic and Germanic branches of the Indo-European tree, is recorded in manuscripts dated between the sixth and eighth centuries A.D., and solid evidence for its existence can be found as far back as the third century.

Despite the fact that Tocharian manuscripts are found only for the later period, linguists have isolated occasional Tocharian words embedded in manuscripts written in Gandhari Prakrit, a northwest Indian vernacular that served as the administrative language for large parts of the Tarim Basin during the third through the fifth centuries. Also, the Tocharians were earlier known as the Yuezhi (or Ruzhi), to whom references occur in Chinese texts as early as the fifth century B.C., within the time frame of the Tarim Basin mummies.

The Tocharians are vividly displayed in ancient wall paintings at Kizil and Kumtura (near the modern Chinese city K'u-ch'e, in the Tien Shan Mountains north of the Tarim Basin) as aristocratic Europeans, with red or blond hair parted neatly in the middle, long noses, blue or green eyes set in narrow faces, and tall bodies. The Yuezhi from the first century B.C. also are depicted in striking painted statues at Khalchayan (west of the Surkhan River in ancient Bactria). They too are shown to be Europeans with long noses, thin faces, blond hair, pink skin, and bright blue eyes. It is known from historical sources that during the second century B.C. the Greater Yuezhi moved from northwest China to Ferghana and Bactria, which lie on the far side of the Pamirs. From there they moved south across the Hindu Kush into Afghanistan and the northern part of the Indian subcontinent, where they founded the mighty Kushan empire. The latter, in turn, extended its power back into the Tarim Basin and with it spread Buddhism, which eventually reached China.

One hypothesis gaining increasing support is that the migration of these Indo-Europeans began with their invention of wheeled wagons. Working with Russian archeologists, Dr. David W. Anthony, an anthropologist at Hartwick College in New York, has discovered traces of wagon wheels in 5,000-year-old burial mounds on the steppes of southern Russia and Kazakhstan. This line of investigation has a direct bearing on the question of the European mummies in China because tripartite disk wheels similar in construction to those found in western Asia and Europe during the third and second millennium B.C. have been found in the Gobi Desert, northeast of the Tarim Basin. Similarly, spoked wheels dating to the early second millennium B.C. have been unearthed at a site nearby.

Most researchers now agree that the birthplace of horse-drawn vehicles and horse riding was in the steppes of Ukraine, rather than in China or the Near East. As Dr. Anthony and his colleagues have shown through microscopic study of ancient horse teeth, horses already were being harnessed in Ukraine 6,000 years ago. Also, wooden chariots with elaborate, spoked wheels have been shown to date to around 2,000 B.C. in the same area. In comparison, chariots do not appear in China until some 800 years later. Ritual horse burials similar to those in ancient Ukraine also have been excavated in the Tarim Basin, as well as remains of wagon wheels made by doweling together three carved, parallel wooden planks. Wagons with nearly identical wheels are known from the grassy plains of Ukraine as far back as 3,000 B.C.

A number of artifacts recovered from the Tarim Basin mummy burials have provided important evidence for early horse riding. These include a wooden bit and leather reins, a horse whip consisting of a single strip of leather attached to a wooden handle, a wooden cheek piece with leather straps, and a padded leather saddle of exquisite workmanship. This seems to confirm that the mummies belonged to a mobile, horse-riding culture that spread from the plains of eastern Europe. It also supports the growing belief of archeologists that the spread of Indo-European genes, culture, and language may be linked to the gradual spread of horse riding and the technology of horse-drawn vehicles from their origins in Europe 6,000 years ago.

These discoveries have extremely important consequences for understanding the origins of Chinese civilization, since the chariot has now been demonstrated to have entered China only around the middle of the second millennium B.C., at roughly the same time that bronze metallurgy and writing developed there. The evidence suggests, therefore, that wagons and chariots were introduced into China from the west by Indo-Europeans. It also shows that the European penetration of China did not begin with the opening of the transcontinental Silk Road trade route that history books usually place in the second century B.C., but at least 2,000 years earlier at the turn of the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, when the whole of Eurasia became culturally and technologically interconnected by migrating Europeans.

Actually, as early as 1951 the German archeologist Robert Heine-Geldern sought to show a series of similarities between the metalwork of Europe and China around 800 B.C. His evidence included horse gear, two-edged swords, socketed axes, and spearheads, which he believed originated in the Hallstatt and Caucasus metallurgical centers. Arguing that a "Pontic Migration" had taken place from Europe across Asia, he suggested that the Dongson culture of south China could best be explained as the result of influences carried directly from Europe during the 9th and 8th centuries B.C.[2]

Two years later the well known Russian archeologist S. I. Rudenko noted the existence of mummies with European features in the royal tombs of Pazyryk in the Altai mountains, dated to the 5th and 4th centuries B.C. This evidence was subsequently added to by John Haskins of the University of Pittsburgh, who argued that the Yueh-chih (an ancient Chinese name for the Tocharians) of the Pazyryk region of the Altai might have been related to the Celts of continental Europe.

Significantly, the Tarim Basin mummies have provided further evidence which supports Heine-Geldern's theory. Some of the grave goods found with the mummies strongly suggest a connection with the "socketed celt horizon," typified by socketed bronze celts (axes which have bent wooden handles inserted at the end opposite the blade) and other distinctive bronze objects, such as knives with zoomorphic handles. The "socketed celt horizon" is dated roughly 1,800 to 1,000 B.C. stretching across Europe and correlates well with certain facets of a horse-riding and chariot/cart culture which emphasized hunting with composite bows and perhaps crossbows.

Thus, new credence has been given to previously ignored and ridiculed theories for the origins and development of civilization in China. In light of the new evidence, Edwin Pulleyblank of the University of British Columbia recently argued that European influence may have been an important factor in the unification of the Chinese states and the establishment of the first centralized Chinese empire by Ch'in Shih Huang Ti in the year 221 B.C. He points to the external arrival on the Chinese steppe frontier of the military technique of mounted archery, first explicitly mentioned in Chinese sources in the year 307 B.C. In the west mounted archery appears with the Scythians, closely related to the Celts, who are first mentioned in Near Eastern sources around 800 B.C. and whose way of life is described at length by the Greek historian Herodotus. Ironically, it was the technique of mounted archery that defined the classic nomadism that dominated the European steppe and made possible the great steppe empires of the Xiongnu, the Turks, and the Mongols that later terrorized Europe.

Pulleyblank effectively suggests that European technology was copied by the Chinese and turned against its original inventors. Indeed, a suggestive analogy to the spread of mounted archery eastward to the borders of China can be seen in the way in which the acquisition of horses by the Indians from the Spaniards in Mexico and their use in warfare transformed the Great Plains of North America from the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries. This theory of Mongoloid imitation is also reflected in the many words of Indo-European origin in the earliest known layers of Sinitic languages. These include words for "horse," "track," "cart," "wheel," and "cow" and suggest further that it was Europeans who brought these things into China.

Textile samples from the late second millennium B.C. found in the Tarim Basin graves also provide evidence of the diffusion of European technological sophistication to China. One fragment was a wool twill woven with a plaid design which required looms that have never before been associated with China or eastern Central Asia at such an early date. Irene Good, a specialist in textile archeology at the University of Pennsylvania, has confirmed that the plaid fabric was virtually identical stylistically and technically to textile fragments found in Austria and Germany at sites from a somewhat later period.

Dr. Elizabeth J.W. Barber, a linguist and archeologist at Occidental College in Los Angeles and the author of Prehistoric Textiles (Princeton University Press, 1991), confirms that the Chinese did not use and did not even know twill, but obtained knowledge of the weave from the West, and only after the Han period. Significantly, there appear to be many connections between the Tarim Basin mummies and the 5,000 year old "Ice Man" found in the Austrian Alps in 1991. These include the type and style of clothing, personal artifacts, solar-religious symbolism, and tattoos for healing and decoration -- as well, of course, as the distinct racial commonality.

The evidence, therefore, increasingly seems to confirm a Celtic culture extending across Eurasia at least 4,000 years ago. As one academic, James Opie, an expert on design motifs in ancient rugs and bronze implements, has pointed out, it is highly significant that Celtic endless-knot motifs, swastikas, and animal-style decorations have been discovered from Europe, through Iran, to China. The religion of the Celts -- including the Scythians -- was solar, and three- and four-armed swastikas as solar symbols are an omnipresent element in Celtic art. Likewise, the Tarim Basin Europeans displayed a definite penchant for spiral solar symbols, painting them on their faces and engraving them on the bridles of their horses. This in itself suggests that they were Nordics who were and always have been worshippers of the sun and sky, and more generally of Nature. As Dr. Michael Puett, a historian of East Asian civilization at Harvard University, has argued, the Tarim Basin mummies reveal clear processes of a cultural diffusion from Europe outward.

All of this supports the thesis of the pioneering archeologist Colin Renfrew, who challenged the previously accepted idea that prehistoric culture began in the Near East or Central Asia and was only later "diffused" into "barbarian" Europe. It confirms that the cultural prerequisites for civilization are much, much older in Europe than has been acknowledged, and suggests that far from Europe being civilized from outside, it was rather the rest of the world, including Asia, which was civilized by colonizing Europeans.[3]


[1] V. Gordon Childe, Antiquity, 32 (1958), p. 70

[2] J. P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, London (1989), p. 59.

[3] Colin Renfrew, Before Civilization, New York (1974).

National Vanguard Magazine -- Number 117 (March-April 1997)

GreenHeart
Sunday, July 21st, 2002, 10:33 AM
Finally, someone else who knows about the mummies too! I like to consider myself an expert on that subject, and I really love to read about the history of our race! Especially interesting is the history dealing with the Indo-Europeans.

davison6
Tuesday, July 23rd, 2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
Finally, someone else who knows about the mummies too! I like to consider myself an expert on that subject, and I really love to read about the history of our race! Especially interesting is the history dealing with the Indo-Europeans. Well, let's start out with the basics. Did You know that Siberia was originally inhabited by Aryans? As we took over Western Europe we gradually let the Altaic peoples have Asia. The Tocharian mummies are actually late in Aryan history, and were returnees from central Europe. From the Ukraine we staged three invasions of Old Europe (the rather advanced Balkan civilization which had lived there since roughly 7500 BC). The first was in 4300 BC and from the literary evidence surviving in works such as the Voluspa combined with archeological evidence I deduce that we established an empire over a variety of tributary Old European states using their own political divisions against them. In 3500 BC a third wave of Aryans invaded, probably simply taking over the old empire, since there is little break in the archeological record. In 3000 BC the final wave invaded, but were repulsed back to the Ukraine, from where ceaseless attacks eventually caused the disintegration of the empire. Of course, that is my own interpretation of the literary evidence upon the archeological evidence. Orthodox scholars generally refuse to consider mythology as history and therefore ignore it for anything other than cultural studies. What is certain from the archeological record is that there was plenty of anarchy, and also the breakup of the Aryan nations seems to have begun at this time. The Centum-Satem division of Indo-European languages dates to roughly this time as Iranians, Slavs, and other Eastern Aryans began to move back towards the east again.

GreenHeart
Tuesday, July 23rd, 2002, 02:27 AM
It's fairly obvious that Aryans were in Russia! I never know they exact dates for al these different events, but I generally know about them and in what general sequence they happened.

davison6
Tuesday, July 23rd, 2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
It's fairly obvious that Aryans were in Russia! I never know they exact dates for al these different events, but I generally know about them and in what general sequence they happened. The Ukraine is agreed to be the last home of all three waves prior to invading Balkan Europe, but there agreement stops. Siberia, despite the incredible finds that have already been made there, is simply to vast and difficult to excavate. The first wave seems to have come in by a northern route, crossing the Urals and coming down the Volga. The next two waves seem to have come in south of the Urals, skirting the north shore of the Caspian. Certainly, this is the route the returning Indo-Iranian tribes took to go back east.

FadeTheButcher
Saturday, July 27th, 2002, 07:38 PM
interesting

OnionPeeler
Saturday, July 27th, 2002, 09:47 PM
This pattern of exploration and conquest is played out over and over again in big and small examples. Europeans reaching out and establishing by technical or military superiority new bases and finding new niches.

The two largest examples in history accompanied by massive movement of peoples were the Indo-Europeans and the Age of Discovery. The entire Western hemisphere now speaks Indo-European languages. Lesser movements include the Vikings and the Volks Wandering at the close of the Roman Empire. But there are many more examples.

Europeans indeed seem to have trouble surviving when 1) they lose their martial spirit and 2) stay in one place too long. This pattern of miscegination is also repeated over and over.

Unravelling the past, however, is tricky. In Europe we can be fairly certain of a continuum extending back to Cro-Magnon but other areas the picture is still less complete. It would be nice to know what the racial picture looked like at the close of the Ice Age and after Neolithic diffusion. It would seem likely that Nordic Indo-Europeans were often overlaying Nordic non-Indo-European speakers. Modern Germanic languages, for example, include 30% non-Indo-European vocabulary (the word "ship" vs. IE "boat").

davison6
Monday, July 29th, 2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Triad
The two largest examples in history accompanied by massive movement of peoples were the Indo-Europeans and the Age of Discovery. The entire Western hemisphere now speaks Indo-European languages. Lesser movements include the Vikings and the Volks Wandering at the close of the Roman Empire. But there are many more examples.Including many which are now lost to history but are reconstructible. The third wave in particular produced a great number of Volkswanderung such as that which left the Tocharians (actually a first wave people, judging from the archaicity of their language) in Sinkiang.


Europeans indeed seem to have trouble surviving when 1) they lose their martial spirit and 2) stay in one place too long. This pattern of miscegination is also repeated over and over.I'm living proof of that. Now do all You die hards understand why I live in Japan?


Unravelling the past, however, is tricky. In Europe we can be fairly certain of a continuum extending back to Cro-Magnon but other areas the picture is still less complete. It would be nice to know what the racial picture looked like at the close of the Ice Age and after Neolithic diffusion.While the inhabitants of paleolithic Europe seem to have been a robust population very similar to modern day Europeans (and very different from the Mediterranean types that created the Old European civilization), to call them "Indo-European" is quite incorrect. Aryans are a nation, not a race.


It would seem likely that Nordic Indo-Europeans were often overlaying Nordic non-Indo-European speakers. Modern Germanic languages, for example, include 30% non-Indo-European vocabulary (the word "ship" vs. IE "boat").It is conclusively demonstrated that we learned much from the Old Europeans whom we conquered. Ship building was one of these crafts. Our peculiar genius lay in the uses to which we put it.

OnionPeeler
Monday, July 29th, 2002, 03:40 AM
"Aryans are a nation, not a race." Then there is properly no living Aryans. This statement can be turned around with equal validity in the absence of evidence.

With evidence, and since it is rather a matter of definition, I do indeed turn it around. Perhaps the only 'victory' to come out of WNism, the older scholars and modern genetics is that Aryan is [also] race. Even our enemies now use the term - though they spit it out as if it were pig meat. It is only the dogged and deconstructive hold outs who try to detach Aryan from a NW European benchmark. Genetic distances attest that the appearances of the early Tarim mummies is not fluke. This does not exclude graduated relationship (also genetically attested) and talk of 'purity' is ridiculous. But the Nordic referent is there as 'modern' Aryan whether it is liked or not. Even the conservative Parsi accept it.

As one, Davison, who professes a greater role for literary source this should be all the more apparent. The unmistakable references in Rig Veda, Homer, Persia are telling - as they were to 19th Century scholars. Flavius (blond) and Rufus (red) in early Latin would not have occured to a people which lacked the capacity to produce them.

The theory of multiple waves is interesting as I have often thought there were repeated movements rather than nice clean advances. The later wanderings of the Vandals and Visigoths would certainly suggest that mileage is not the paramount measure. The Keltic links of the Tocharians and Bangans are fascinating.

But I have to admit being more skeptical of literary source without alot of confimational evidence. Homer's Troy as a real place being a good example. Voluspa seems altogether too late to reveal early events reliably but I'd love to hear the evidence.

davison6
Monday, July 29th, 2002, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Triad
"Aryans are a nation, not a race." Then there is properly no living Aryans. This statement can be turned around with equal validity in the absence of evidence.You are right about this, of course. There is only the daughter nations, not the original Aryan nation. This doesn't mean that we can't revive it.


With evidence, and since it is rather a matter of definition, I do indeed turn it around. Perhaps the only 'victory' to come out of WNism, the older scholars and modern genetics is that Aryan is [also] race.Aryan isn't even a subrace, it is a part of the "Nordic" (I use the term here very loosely to denote tall blonde and blue eyed types) subrace of the white race. For all practical purposes, Finns are genetical identical to Aryans, yet they are not Aryans.

Who are the Bangans?

OnionPeeler
Wednesday, July 31st, 2002, 05:27 AM
OK. I see our split. Your focus seems to be on technical division in extant race classification, mine on the politically extended definition of Aryan.

I have no problem jumping between IE mythology, IE language, IE tribes and modern generic "whites" and calling them all 'Aryan' in their respective spheres.

You'll note that I used the term 'referent' and applied it to the Nordic sub-group - implying an idealized form which even that sub-group does not fully meet. One of the few things that WN's have broad agreement on is 'some kind of' eugenics. So Aryan is not just a present 'race' but a future one - idealized in form, beauty and intelligence-, which as you know, inspires stammering fear.

Many efforts, of course, have put forward a more techinical description of 'Aryan' race ranging from strict Germanicism to more inclusive genetic distance measurements (pick a referent).

It may be presumptuous on my part, but I suspect AryanDawn would prefer the latter method should we ever try to enumerate.

Oh, BTW, Bangans. IE-speaking people central north India. A piece on their language:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.abbi2.html

davison6
Wednesday, July 31st, 2002, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Triad
Oh, BTW, Bangans. IE-speaking people central north India. A piece on their language:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.abbi2.htmlWell, this is quite an interesting addition to my collection, thank You!

Rahul
Wednesday, July 31st, 2002, 04:25 PM
Bangan clans are just about 60 Kms from the place where I live.

I have been close to that place but could never make it there into those villages. I know a Bangan, whom I was helping when he was staying in my city. I felt a strong sense of tie with his mannerisms. Its still a living Aryan culture, but its facing extinction. I hope to do some recce to know about these people who live in the Greater Himalayas, on the border of Utteranchal and Himachal.

I have heard from my close friends of a Village called Sartoli and another Haryal(incidentally the very name of my grandmother's village in north west frontier India).

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, May 26th, 2004, 08:16 AM
Sick, overblowns who believe Iranians to be the source of all that is good and true. Get a grip. China had given it's influences to the West, through Aryana. I am not either ethnicity, just know what I am talking about.

ahxiang
Thursday, December 23rd, 2004, 04:33 AM
From: Bobo Huang
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:19:50 -0600
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I think all these arguments on (Han) Chinese origin are avoidable.
Historical records, including ethnic demographic history, are likely to be
some times imprecise and inconclusive. This leads to much controversy and
speculations. Paleoanthropology offers some insight and genealogy can
contribute. But, as genetics and paleo-genetics can provide more accurate
answers, these should be the main focus. This is not to negate others as
mentioned. They are still relevant to compliment the genetic analysis.
For example, in appearance or morphologically, most of the Brazillians
don’t
look like the Native American (Indian). Genetic analysis reveals something
quite different. The indigenous mitrochrondial DNA (female lineage)
contribution to the Brazillian population varies from 11% to 59%. Even in
some of the upper echelon of the supposedly more homogenous Whites, it
reaches as high as 33%. (Ref.1). A corollary study with DNA from the Y
chromosome (male lineage) of Columbian Mestizos pointed to a figure of
about
2 %.(Ref 2) This means historically it was mainly the European and to a
much
smaller extent African males who mated with the indigenous women to produce

the current Brazillian population. It strongly indicated that, in
consistent
with history, large numbers of the indigenous males were enslaved and
worked
to death/killed. And the excess native women were taken advantage by the
predominantly male European immigrants/invaders. It was also possible that
the native women preferred male European for survival reasons. This
contradicts the current academic apology that depopulation of the natives
was the result of diseases or lack of immunity to introduced diseases.
Diseases do not discriminate (whether you are male or female).

This aside, there are now enough genetic studies to answer this question
about (Han) Chinese origin. Perhaps, if all the Chinese ethnic groups are
to
be considered, more comprehensive and representative data are needed.
However, over the past few years, the Chinese genome project set up by
Stanford University and several Chinese Universities (Fudan University,
etc.) has done enough research to yield some results. (Ref 3)
Basically, genetic studies on Chinese, inclusive of many main ethnic
groups,
conclude that there are no European/Caucasoid genes in the Han Chinese. It
is easier and more definite to disprove substantial Caucasoid genetic
component in all Han Chinese. Also if there is any truth that there is
Caucasoid origin to Chinese, then significant amount of Caucasoid
mitochrondia DNA (female line) and Y chromosomal DNA (male line) has to be
present in all the Han Chinese. Even in the Uyghurs, the population only
possesses about 25 % identifiable Central Asian (more Turkish, not exactly
European) genetic markers.( Ref 3). The rest of their genetic markers are
more related to Northern Chinese/East Asian. This demonstrates that it is
more plausible to make a case that there were migrations outward from
central/north China rather than Central Asian infusion.(Ref 4,5)

In reality, the analysis of the genetic component of the Han and its mainly

Asian minorities is more complex. This is because genetically, the Asian
minorities (eg Tibetan) are more related to the Han than the Caucasian or
other minorities (eg.Kazaks) that have significant amount of Central Asian
genes. To track down the more closely related ethnic groups, more samples
(larger number of people from each group) and genetic markers have to be
analysed to reveal the minor differences. This is simply because it is
harder to differentiate individuals who are more alike genetically.
Besides,
interbreeding over the years further compromised the differences and so
complicated the picture. (Ref 4,5)

The following references used for this posting are available from website
like www.genetics.org (http://www.genetics.org/) Reasonable knowledge in genetics is required to read

and understand them.

Ref 1. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:444-461, 2000
The Ancestry of Brazilian mtDNA Lineages
Juliana Alves-Silva,1 Magda da Silva Santos,1 Pedro E. M. Guimarães,1
Alessandro C. S. Ferreira,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,2 Sérgio D. J. Pena,1 and
Vania Ferreira Prado1
1Departamento de Bioquímica e Imunologia, Universidade Federal de Minas
Gerais, Belo Horizonte-MG, Brazil; and 2 Fachbereich Mathematik,
Universität
Hamburg, Hamburg

Ref 2. Strong Amerind/white sex bias and a possible Sephardic contribution
among the founders of a population in northwest Colombia.
Carvajal-Carmona LG, Soto ID, Pineda N, Ortiz-Barrientos D, Duque C,
Ospina-Duque J, McCarthy M, Montoya P, Alvarez VM, Bedoya G, Ruiz-Linares
A.
Laboratorio de Genetica Molecular, Universidad de Antioquia, Medellin,
Colombia.


Ref 3. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 95, pp. 11501–11503, September 1998
Commentary
The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project
L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford,
CA
94305

Ref 4. Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans
into
Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age
Bing Su,1 Junhua Xiao,2 Peter Underhill,5 Ranjan Deka,7 Weiling Zhang,2
Joshua Akey,1
Wei Huang,3,4 Di Shen,1 Daru Lu,2 Jingchun Luo,2 Jiayou Chu,8 Jiazhen Tan,2

Peidong Shen,5
Ron Davis,5,6 Luca Cavalli-Sforza,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,1 Momiao Xiong,1
Ruofu Du,9
Peter Oefner,5,6 Zhu Chen,3,4 and Li Jin1,2,3
1Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston; 2Morgan-Tan
International Center for Life Sciences and Institute of Genetics,
Fudan University, 3National Human Genome Center at Shanghai, and 4Rui-Jin
Hospital, Shanghai Second Medical University, Shanghai;
5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, and 6Stanford DNA Sequencing
and Technology Center, Palo Alto; 7Department of
Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati; 8Institute of
Medical Biology, The Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences,
Kunming, Yunnan, China; and 9Institute of Genetics, The Chinese Academy of
Sciences, Beijing


Ref 5. Genetic Structure of the Chinese Populations
1,2Lin He, 1,2YongYong Shi, 1,2XinZhi Zhao, 1,2Lan Yu, 1,2Ran Tao,
1,2JunXia
Tang, 1,2Changshun Zhang, 1,2Bo Gao, 1,2Gang Chen, 1,2GuoYin Feng,
1,2YuJuan
La
1Bio-X Life Science Research Center, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, 1954
Hua
Shan Road, Shanghai 200030, China, 2Shanghai Research Center of Life
Sciences, 320 Yue Yang Road, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai 200031,
China

ahxiang
Thursday, December 23rd, 2004, 05:07 AM
There is no trace of 'White men' whatsoever in ancient China. The territory of Xinjiang, i.e., New Dominion Province, is a disputable area. Sima Qian could be wrong in assuming that Yuezhi people had lived around Dunhuang-Qilian. The mummies the Nordic dicks are talking about were found near Turpan or Urumqi.

In history, true, Ran Min had killed 200,000 Jiehu for their high nose bridge in 3-4th century time frame. Jiehu was merely one branch of the Huns, but the rest of Huns were just like us Chinese. That's why history said Jiehu was sorted out by high nose bridge. High nose bridge was not equal to White men. You had seen Indians, Pakistani, and Afghanistani. They all have high nose bridge, but they are not White men. People in Xinjiang, Afghanistan and Pakistan have relatively darker skin, the same way as Tibetans: Because they live on higher grounds, and because they live next to the desert. Similarly, hairy skin was not equal to White men. I had pasted a picture of the Ainu on my website at http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm (http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm) Once you see who the Ainu are, you understand what I mean.

I had a discourse on Tanguts, Qiangs [Tibetans], and today's Yi-zu minority. There were extrapolations about them. Epics claimed they pasted red color onto dark face. Should they have high nose bridge, that's because they, either relatives or ancestors of Tibetans, had historically lived in between Chinese and Xinjiang [New Dominion Province].

In the following, I will paste some of my studies

Rong's Possible Link To Qiangic People

Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago. Such racial demeaning approach led to claims that ancient Rong-di people were non-Mongoloid or that ancient Chang-di barbarian & Zhongshan-guo people were non-Mongoloid. A thorough perusal of ancient history only leads to one conclusion, i.e., ancient Rong-di people and their offsprings were ancestors of today's Tibetans. http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/cont...stract/20/2/214 (http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/2/214) carried an article about the new research paper by Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, claiming that "The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool". (Prof Wei Chu-Hsien, in China & America, had research into 'bat cave' drawings on Taiwan Island and concluded that ancient Taiwan aboriginals had migrated there from coastal China.)

http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#White-yi (http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#White-yi)

Emperor Fu Jian of Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394) called the Xianbei rebels 'Bai Lu', namely, "light"-skinned enemies [as commonly perceived]. Historians, including Cai Dongfan, speculated that Xianbei, whose ancestors fled to Manchuria under the Hunnic attack, MIGHT have possessed lighter skin; and a Japanese historian, who compiled China's 25 chronicles into commonly-readable series, had also pointed out that Jinn Dynasty wealthy in northern China liked to buy Xianbei women as concubines for the height. Having interpreted "Huangxu-nu of Xianbei" as "yellow-haired slave of the Xianbei nomads", I would conclude that <b>Xianbei 'Bai Lu' could merely mean white-colored clothing people by adopting Scholar Wang Zhonghan's linkage of ancient Bai-yi [White Yi] subgroup of Dong-yi [Eastern Yi] barbarians</a> to the tribal custom of wearing white-colored clothes.</b> In deed, today's Koreans, i.e., kinsmen of the Tungunzic Dong Hu, still had a tradition of wearing white robe.

Agrippa
Thursday, December 23rd, 2004, 01:26 PM
Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago.

This wording alone is very enlightening. How significant the Indoeuropean influence might have been is difficult to say, but to deny the fact that contacts and a certain cultural impact existed is absurd.

Again, even if it would be about the horse and certain tactics alone, its almost absolutely sure that IE domesticated and invented these techniques.

Aistulf
Thursday, December 23rd, 2004, 02:14 PM
The Chinese authorities haven't been trying to dissolve this part of history for nothing...

ahxiang
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 05:30 AM
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/970820/970820.web.pdf

You guys will now get genetical confirmation that Ainu have nothing to do with White men.

Aside from your absurd claim of Caucasoid origin or bearing for Chinese civilization, there was also the other absurd claim of Negroid origin. Both absurdities, in fact, shared the same roots of fallacies:



Prof Wei Chu-hsien did commit a fatal mistake in extrapolating on the tin decipher for the city of Wuxi ["no tin"] and polarized the Xia-Shang dynastic substitution as a fight between Mongoloid [Negroid to be in Wei's apparently blown-away alternative writing (http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/27/2700466.pdf)] and Caucasoid, i.e., a fallacy that scholar Luo Xianglin opposed. Do note that Wei was a student of Wang Guowei who fallaciously proposed the notion of linking 'Hua' to the Avars and 'Xia' to the Tu-huo-luo kingdom in Central Asia. Should Wei have adopted 'black fish' of the Yangtze Deta as the god of "dark-skinned" Shang people who moved to the Yellow River with the tin from Wuxi hill, then how could he reconcile the ancient claim that the father of Yu, i.e., Gun of Xia people, was named 'black fish'? Scholar Luo Xianglin pointed out that Frenchman Terrien Lacouperie was the first to propose the fallacious claim of Babylon as the "Western Origin Of The Early Chinese Civilization" in 1894. Wang Guowei just conveniently appropriated the Frenchman's absurd idea, and his student Wei Juxian carried it on. Ultimately, you, Clyde Winters, picked it up by treating it as a dog chew.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 05:45 AM
You guys will now get genetical confirmation that Ainu have nothing to do with White men.

Ahxiang, the Ainuids certainly share a common origin with the western Eurasians, and this is backed up by the genetics. Nobody has said the Ainu are modern Europeans, or that native Bronze Age Chinese were Caucasoid.

And nobody has suggested that Chinese civilisation was founded by Caucasoids, but that a Central Asian influence in the Bronze Age of China was important to Chinese culture, and that such a migration led to Xia state formation, either by conquest or by forcing a response to their raids.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Cultures and Ethnic Groups West of Chna in the Second and First Millenia B.C. , by Jettmar Karl.

We have seen the external diffusionist "Western Origins Theory' discarded except for a few very isolated traits." In this sentence, proclaimed during the Conference on the Origins of Chinese Civilization (Berkeley, 1978), Meacham (1983: 170-171) seemed to express the predominant opinion.

But the question remians whether these "very isolated traits" indicate ethnic movements of considerable political and demographic dimension. Perhaps we can appreciate their full importance by studying the counter-current diffusion of technical achievements of Chinese origin toward the West. They may be explained by trade, or as goods brought back by withdrawing invaders. Arguments will be presented in chronological sequence up to the end of the Sandai period. We should keep in mind that the better-explored areas (Soviet-ruled Middle Asia and south Siberia) lie more than 3000 km west of the Sandai territories. (Archaeological work done there rests upon broad and solid foundations, incomparable with the hastily done excavations in eastern Siberia.) Finds between the two areas, in Tibet, Sinkiang, Chinghai, and Kansu (now called Central Asia in the Sovient literature), are scanty, despite all the efforts of the last few years. The mechanism of contact will remian mostly unexplained.

THE THIRD AND EARLY SECOND MILLENNIUM B.C.

The Neolithic period of the western steppes (with very few and very late indications of a food-producing econmony) was included in the Kel'teminar culture. Along the uppercourse of the Yenisei an Aeneolithic culture called Afanasievo was observed and dated in the first centuries of the second millennium B.C. It was followed by a period known as the Bronze Age of the Steppes, when people lived from farming and stock-breeding, a period which is summarized under the name Andronovo culture (Jettmar 1966a). Loehr believed that the Afanasievo and Andronovo cultures of the steppes might have stimulated metallurgy in CHina (Loehr 1949). According to the unanimous opinion of our Soviet colleagues, the cultures of militant horsemen came into existence only at the beginning of the first millennium B.C.

Research in recent years has led to two main conclusions. First, the Neolithic cultures of the steppes of Central Asia and Kazakhstan (Vinogradov and Mamedov 1975) do not give the impression of great radiation from their centers. In this respect they are clearly different from those existing in the steppes west of the River Ural (i.e., in Europe) during the fourth and third millennia B.C. Since the Mesolithic substratum in the East is rather archaic (Matjusin 1976), and since transition to a productive economy takes place much later than in the steppes between the Urals and the River Dnieper (Yamno or Kurgan Culture, Merpert 1977), it is an error to look for sources of the Kurgan Culture in the East (cf. Gimbutas 1975--as far as Lake Balkash!).

Secondly, the name Andronovo Culture ought to be used with great caution in the future, inasmuch as it suggests a uniform ethnic substratum of Indo-Iranians or Iranians, which cannot possibly he maintained (Itina 1977). Only marginal groups influenced by the Timber Grave Culture, for example, the Novokumak complex between the Rivers Ural and Tobol (Sintasta, Gening 1977; Smirnov and Kuz'mina 1977) made use of chariots and perhaps spoke an Indo-Iranian idiom. Farther to the East were peasants evolving from a local substratum, for example, in East and Central Kazakhstan (Cernikov 1960).

The Soviet archaeologists have observed cultures of superlocal importance that are arranged in two zones north and south of the steppes belt, that is, in the forest zone and its marginal areas, as well as in the oasis regions of the south and southeast marginal of Middle Asia.

THE SOUTHERN ZONE

In northern Afghanistan and the bordering parts of the Soviet Union, in the regions called Margiana and Bactria in antiquity, burials and setlements, fortresses and cult places have been excavated in recent years (Sarianidi 1973; 1974; 1976; 1977a; 1977b; Sarianidi, Terekhova, and Cernykh 1977; Askarov 1977). Numberous cemeteries, alas, have been robbed in recent times (cf. Amiet 1977; Ghirshman 1977; Tosi and Wardak 1972). The excavations give evidence of a group of cultures apparently beginning in the third millennium B.C. (earliest radiocarbon dates 2280 B.C). They cannot have come into existence due to the expansion of tribes from Turkmenia and Gorgan eastward only, as was at first believed, for they contain elements betraying contact with civilizations in the interior and on the northwest margin of the Iranian Plateau. Amiet (1977) quite rightly lays stress on an Elamian component. On the other hand, affinities to India, to Harappa, and to contemporary cultures as well as later ones cannot be overlooked.

The so-called Margiano-Bactrian Archaeological Complex was surrounded by a similarly dynamic periphery. This became evident in Bactria itself (P'jankova 1974; Mandel'stam 1968), in the Bukhara region (Kuz'mina 1958; Askarov 1963), and in Ferghana where a hoard was found as early as 1894 (Khak). This hoard contained a pin with a head representing a milking scene (Zadneprovskij 1962:52-55).

It is tempting to connect the Margiano-Bactrian archaeologcial complex (and many bronzes which came as stray finds from neighboring areas (Kuz'mina 1966) with East Asia: Amiet even proposes to derive the so-called Nestorian seal-amulets (Hambis 1954) from the stamp-seals of Bactria.

In later research (and not under the immediate impact of the rather revolutionary radiocarbon dates of bronze finds in Southeast Asia), fresh attempts will certainly be made to trace Western influences on the rising metallurgy of China. It will then be necessary to analyze this complex. I will not attempt it here, since the situation is not as yet clear. I will confine myself to the remark that all earlier refutations of such influences (which were based on an evaluation of the scanty Andronovo material) are to be abandoned. Here in the south, types are represented that might have been of importance to Archaic China, for example, one-edged knives and knife-shaped picks to be inserted into a wooden staff. If the Caucasian dagger published by Hajek really was found in China, it certainly belongs in this context as does the strange dagger from Rasit (Pogrebova and Clenova 1970).

THE NORTHERN ZONE

IN the northern zone, the progressive cultures with incipient metallurgy are Krotovo and Samus' (between the Rivers Ob and Irtys) as well as Okunev in the Minusinsk Basin, an island of steppe on the Upper Yenisei surrounded by forested mountains (Molodin 1977). Examples of pottery with affinities to these cultures are said to have been observed in Inner Mongolia on Chinese territory (Clenova 1977; KK 1964[1]: 2). Engravings where found on stone slabs which were used as building- material in burials of the Okunev Culture. Two stylistic groups can be discerned: a realistic one, representing bulls and men with bird-masks, and a schematic one, the essential motifs of which are a horned mask with three eyes and a symbol of the sun (a ring with four tips). Neither of these two styles is known in other cultures of the forest zone. The realistic style could possibly be derived from the south of Central Asia (Matjuscenko 1977). The schematic one may possibly have a relation to "cryptic magic," which was presumed to have been the background of some painted designs of the Yangshao Culture in Kansu (Chang 19777:110-132; cf. Formozov 1969: 109, 194).

The affinities are significant, since there is a Mongolid component of Central Asian origin in the Okunev population (brachycephalic skulls) (Ivanova 1966). Within the framework of this northern complex, a center of bronze casting and metal trade arose that later influenced Eastern Europe. Large ceremonial knives with ends decorated by elaborate figures, and sometimes even with a whole scene, come from important sites (Seima, Turbino) west of the Urals. (Clenova 1972, pl. 69).

Such designs may ultimately depend on the Margiano-Bactrian archaeological complex (Khak!) for their origins. On the other hand, an affinity of these knives to the long ceremonial knives of the Shang dynasty (cf. Karlgren 1945) has been maintained again and again (clenova 1972:135-138), and for good reason. Socketed spearheads with two loops (non-existent in the south) and socketed celts belong to the same complex.

The existence of a trade and imgration zone along the southern margin of the Taiga could have been the basis of parallel developments and borrowings that allowed scholars to suppose the existence of a Ural- Altaic linguistic family.

In the beginning of the second millennium B.C. or perhaps even before this, Europids as well as the Okunev people lived in the Altai (Alekseev 1961). The Afanasievo Culture must be attributed to this strain of people, since it was (long ago) suggested to have Western affinities. As far as we know, peoples of Western appearance could also have come from the south, from the active periphery of the Margiano-Bactrian archaeological complex.

THE LATE SECOND MILLENNIUM B.C.

In the second half of the second millennium B.C. the Margiano-Bactrian archaeological complex went through further development. Perhaps the ceremonial axes and elegant socketed celts, which Sarianidi (1977b) illustrated, belong to a relatively late phase, that is, the end of the second millennium B.C.

Horses and Chariots

Astonishingly, there are no hints of intense horse-breeding activity in Bactria. This makes even more important the fact that in vast parts of the steppes and the adjacent mountain ranges (in the foreland of the Karatau, in the Pamirs, in the Mongolian Altai) rock carvings of chariots have been discovered during the last few years (Lattauer 1977). There is a tendency to connect them with the eastward expansion of at least one of the cultures summed up under the name Andronovo. In ornamentation as well as in the form of the chkeekpieces there is a clear affinity with the Mycenaean Shaft-Graves (smirnov and Kuz'mina 1977).

Considering the destruction of most cemeteries in Afghanistan (where only ceramics and metal objects were spared), the apparent absence of horse bones, horse gear (with bone cheekpieces), and carts is not decisive. Soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the Shang rulers came from the West, as well as the ceremonial significance of the chariot itself. The finds of Sintasta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber (exactly as in China), as well as the conventionalized rock carving, confirm this thesis, which was also accepted by von Dewall (1964).

The Karasuk Culture

After the long phase of "Andronovo Type" cultures, the Karasuk Culture was formed in southern Siberia. The pottery shows affinities to several groups in Middle Asia and Kazakhstan (Grjaznov 1966; 1970). Metal implements and weapons depend on models developed in the Sandai neighborhood, represented by the oldest stratum of the so-called Ordos bronzes. In one of my first articles (1950), I tried to bring evidence to defend Kiselev, who upheld this thesis after being a scientific adviser in China (Kiselev 1949; 1960). At that time, I believed that the expanding civilization of China had led to a displacement of barbarian neighbors.

Today, we must consider something that puzzled the late Soviet physical anthropologist G.F. Debec, according to one of his last letters. The skulls of the Karasuk necropoles are very similar to those of the much earlier Okunev burials (Clenova 1977). This fact perhaps solves the riddle of the "flight" into the Minusinsk Basin so far away: There were traditional connections with this area, which was surrounded by mining districts. Therefore, we find a certain continuity between Okunev-Samus' metallurgy (reflected in Seima-Turbino) and that of Karasuk. The exact date of the displacement cannot be fixed.

Meanwhileit has become fashionable to state that the "Central Asian," that is, Ordos-Karasuk metallurgy (cernykh 1976) had largely influenced the armament system of East European tribes of the tenth and ninth centuries B.C. (Terenozkin 1975).

THE FIRST MILLENNIUM B.C.

Tribes participating in the battles that led to the shift of power from Shang to Chou certainly reveal cultural traits of East European origin, either because they were immigrants themselves or because they had accepted innovations of immigrants. As I have shown several times (Jettmar 1966b; 1970), this becomes perfectly clear from the material expanded on by von Dewall (1966). She did not acknowledge it herself before the finds of Pai-fu, Ch'ang-p'ing, a northern suburb of Peking (LL 1976 [4]), where made. Three burials in wooden chambers belong to the transition period from Shang to Chou, according to the radiocarbon date (1120 B.C.) At that time the region belonged to the state of Yen. The victorious Chou installed a new dynasty there, whose symbol could be a prototype of the "tamgas" used during later periods by the peoples of the steppes (Vajnberg and Novogorodova 1976). The daggers are of a form known from the Ordos region, and may have belonged to the guards accompanying the new rulers.

Of decisive, importance are four horn psalia or cheekpieces (KK 1976: fig.18, 4) with three perforations, the middle one perpendicular to the others, which were found together with horse bits made of bronze in grave M2. They correspond to a type known in the Early Iron Age (Belogrudovsk and the Early Cernolessk cultures) of the forest steppes in the Dnieper regions (Terenozkin 1958; 1965; Grakov 1977). The date is twelfth to ninth centuries B.C. A similar cheekpiece was found in a slab-grave in Transbaikalia; among the so called Ordos bronzes there is a replica in metal (Jettmar 1970).

The process can be seen as follows: In the generation of the Chou conquerors some troops of the army used metal snaffles (which continue) and horn prongs or bone as crossbars instead of the Shang-time bridle (cheek-plate and plaited leather forming the bit). The latter innovation was abandoned for a while and replaced once more by cheek-plates. Remembrances are preserved in the decorations. Only after several intermediary forms (von Dewall 1966) did the technically superior combination of metal toggles with only tow openings and metal snaffle appear.

Warrior Attacks and Royal Burials

Toward the end of the ninth century B.C. the Chou dynasty had to cope with the attacking Hsien-yun. Prusek (1971) tried to show that this attack aimed at the heart of the kingdom and was executed by mounted warriors. These events should be compared with the almost contemporary invasions of the Cimmerians and the Scythians in the Near East, with which Prusek suggested some kind of connection

With the excavation of the Arzan kurgan in Tuva this suggestion becomes substantial. The kurgan is not only the greatest but also the very oldest princely burial of the Asian steppes (except perhaps for the totally deprived mausolea of Tagisken). The federation that buried their king together with about 160 horses in the middle of his attendance of high-ranking and richly ornamented persons much have had their pasturelands in western Mongolia. The king had tribes under his rule whose ethnic differentiation is reflected by varying systems of horse gear (Grjaznov and Mannaj-ool 1972; 1973a; 1973b; 1974; 1975). Forms not as yet known have been found there.

In the plan of the burial, rituals of manifold origin were combined. Among them was the exposure of the dead above ground in wooden troughts or chests (as was done until only recently by the Kafirs of the Hindukush, and also in the Tarim Basin until the Han period). The soil under the structure was left intact. The central chamber was surrounded by a model palace-town. The tradition of such palace-towns, with rings of surrounding habitations (3 zones, partite in 9 sections), is documented at its earliest in the Margiano-Bactrian archaeological complex (Sarianidi 1977a). A much later monument of this kind of is Koj-Krylgan-kala in Choresmia (Tolstov and Vajnberg 1967).

The model of the palace-town (diameter 80m, height up to 3m) was made of wooden beams and was included in a round platform of stone. One of the boulders was recognized as a fragment of a "stag-stele." The kurgan itself can be dated in the seventh century B.C. at the latest (on account of the weapons and ornaments showing archaic animal style); the stag-stele had already been broken and was treated carelessly, so it must be considerably older, and the style of decoration as well. Moreover, the tribes united here into a confederation certainly had an independent "prehistory" allowing the formation of separate systems of horse gear, meaning that mounted warriors already existed in Mongolia before, say, the tenth or ninth centuries B.C.

Terenozkin (1976) has collected plausible arguments of an immigration of the Pontic Scythians coming from the East. Kyzlasov (1977) thinks that their ancestors were a Saka tribe living in east Kazakhstan.

In any case we now know that the mobilization of the population of the eastern steppes and their transition to a life as mounted warriors began earlier than was thought before. It is convincing that the impact of the Hsien-yun was a consequence of this mobilization. On the other hand, if the contact took place very early, then we can explain how some stylistic patterns rooted in certain regions of China were incorporated in the archaic Animal Style. Surely the curled animal belongs to this East Asian heritage.

Continuing East-West Interaction

The contacts between East and West which began here did not break off. In this way Animal Style motifs of Near Eastern origin were mediated to the Far East (Artamonov 1971a). In such as interply, tribes with Europid features and Mongolids form a zone of manifold and competing cultures belonging together in essential characteristic aspects. Such cultures side by side are clearly to be seen in Tuva (Grac 1967; 1975). Western Mongolia was in the hands of Europid groups as far as we know (Volkov 1974). Evidently the famous kurgans of the High Altai (Rudenko 1953; 1970) were created by tribes who had their winter grazing-grounds farther south on what is today Chinese territory. It is not possible to demonstrate relations in great deal in this paper, but two examples may be mentioned.

First, in the Pazyryk kurgan no. 2, one of the horses had a kind of frontlet carved in horn andn painted red and yellow (Jettmar 1964: pl. p. 91). It is clearly derived from a metal prototype already attested during the Shang Period. Second, perhaps due to Chinese influence, objects made of cast iron were used in various areas of the steppes during a short period during the fifth century B.C. (Jettmar 1970)

Yueh-chih -- The Far Eastern Heritage

Perhaps many of the existing affinities are difficult to understand, since sites of the Yueh-chih (for a while the most important and most troublesome neighbors of the Chinese) have not as yet been identified in their old eastern homelands (Maenchen-Helfen 1945; 1957).

Soviet archaeology may be of some help to us here. In Khalcajan, a dynastic sanctuary of the Kushans, a relief of high artistic value displays a solemn act of alliance. The men of one of the participating groups were characterized by Pugacenkova (1971) as follows:

There is a marked, artificially inflicted deformation of the skull, particularly noticeable in side-view: the occiput is flat, the receding forehead bulges in a triangle over the bridge of the nose, lending a rather stern look to the faces of the men, young and aged alike. The faces are thin, the straight nose is not large. The dark eyes of average size have no trace of epicanthus, but their corners are outlined in black towards the temples; this, coupled with the high cheek-bones, lends the faces a certain "Tartar" look. The specific trimming of the black hair does not occur among other ancient peoples: the hair, bound by a strap, rises over the forehead, is combed away from the ears and clipped below them: the small arrow-shaped moustache frames the upper lip: there are side-whiskers.

This group apparently formed the light cavalry, without any armor, as seen on another relief.

The men of the second group have none of this "Tartar" look: long mustaches fall over clipped pointed beards. When one of them is depicted among the riders, he as well as his horse wears heavy armor. A lance ias seen in the horseman's hand.

Pugacenkova compared the sculptured heads of the first group (evidently those who were in a somewhat superior social position) with the face on the coins of Heraos, who was of Yueh-chih origin and who is considered to be the ancestor of the early Kushan kings. She thinks that fraternization between the nomad invaders and the Bactrian nobility of Iranian origin belonged to the political aims of Heraos, and that his success in this respect is depicted here.

In my opinion, the main scene could even portray a double marriage which united a local dynasty with that of Heraos. This would explain how the Bactrian language prevailed over the idiom of the immigrants.

In any case, it seems certain that the traditional appearance of the Kushan nobility is splendidly presented here. The representations of horsemen that can be seen in applique on felt-canvas found in the Pazyryk kurgan no. 5 bear certain similarities. The scene, may times repeated, shows a rder before a goddess on a throne--a motif well known in Scythian contexts. The fifth kurgan is of course much earlier than Khalcajan (fourth century B.C.?), and the differences are considerable, but one sees the black hair (without cap), the mustache (here twirled upward) and the flying mantilla. The rider sits on a horse with crenelated mane (Maenchen-Helfen 1957).

A second motif decorating these canvases is even more informative, as it shows the fight of a sphinx (with antlers) against a fantastic bird. The outlines of the bodies are traansformed into curvlinear designs with scrolls, which are very well known from Chinese textiles of the Han period (cf. Lubo-Lesnicenko 1961). In spite of this, the decor was certainly not made by Chinese, as the choice of material (felt) shows. Up above, the sphinx wears his mustache in the same "national" fashion as the horseman before the goddess. (Pugacenkova could not explain the fact that among the noblemen of Heraos a sphinx was to be seen on the reliefs of Khalcajan.)

In her dissertation, Pause recognized that the allegedly Chinese embroidery found in this kurgan (which formed a design of double tendrils with twigs of flower-buds and birds) does not correspond to Chinese prototypes of this period (see Lubo-Lesnicenko 1961, pl. XLIX). Similar observations could be made about the pictures of swans (executed in felt) that decorated the canopy of the funeral chariot, which had four wheels and was, according to Littauer (1977), a variation on the Chinese model.

All these elements, non-Chinese but Chinese in appearance to one familiar with Animal Style, had been known for quite some time. It is also remarkable that on a saddlecloth in the same kurgan (and in the fighting scene between the sphinx and the fantastic bird) the medallions with "Greek crosses," one of the main simbols of the Cimmerians appear (Jettmar 1964: 112; Terenozkin 1976). But the consequence was not seen: The "local culture in the Chinese periphery" (where the style originated) was that of the Yueh-chih. Perhaps one of the pair buried in kurgan no. 5 belonged to this people.

I do not think them to be remnants of the legendary proto-Indo-Europeans of Central Asia, but they may have been relatively late immigrants, that is, the very element among the Western barbarians who had wondered the farthest. Their flight to Middle Asia after the victory of the Hsiung-nu was a sort of return.

Perhaps belt-plaques showing landscapes originated in the same milieu. This would explain a Western element of the costume, the fez-like wooden helmet with staff in order to bind up the pigtail of the woman, which is also know from Pazyryk kurgan no. 5 (Artanomov 1971b; Grjaznov 1961). But as plaques of this kind were found over a vast area, such a thesis is difficult to prove. Many of these things found over a vast area, such a thesis is difficult to prove. Many of these things found from Shensi to as far as Liaoning in the East may have been exports or booty (Cheng-Te-k'un 1963).

Few objects decorated in the Animal Style occur in assemblages found in northern Bactria. They belong to the time when nomadic tribes settled there after the conquest and combined local ceramics with weapons and implements they had brought with them (Mandel'stam 1966; 1975a). The small ornaments show intensive affinities to finds from Ch'en-pa-erh-hu-Ch'i, in the region of Hailar near the border of Transbaikalia (KK 1965 [6]). Perhaps one tribe of the Yueh-chih was displaced to the borders of Transbaikalia during the great exodus of their Hsiung-nu overlords to the north.

THE HSIUNG-NU

The Burials of T'ao-hung-pa-la

T'ien Kuang-chin (Kaogu Xuebao 1976 [1]) has assigned the burials of T'ao-hung-pa-la (south of the region) where the dead lie with their heads to the north and similar finds in the same region (e.g., Fan-chia-yao-Tzu, Holingol; WW 1959 [6]) to the Hsiung-nu. At the same time he protested strongly against the tendency not to differentiate the cultural groups in Manchuria, and against the merging of all complexes of this kind into a universal "Scythian Culture," being merely an unscientific device, useful only for the imperialistic theories of aggressors.

My impression is that T'ao-hung-pa-la may really represent an early stage of Hsiung-nu-Culture. The predominance of Western (from Altai and Tuva) and northern elements (from the Slab Grave culture mentioned earlier) is striking, and may have produced conditions where the Hsiung-nu were able to make the transition from the tribe to state earlier than their neighbors in regions farther to the east, such as the Hsien-pi. In addition, as is known from the historical sources, the Hsiung-nu were strongly influenced by the Yueh-chih, who lived at their southwestern borders. Embroideries on a tapestry found in Noin-Ula but only preserved in fragments (Rudenko 1962/1969, pl LX-LXIX) show male heads similar to those of the Heraos family. One recognizes horse gear, clothing, part of a weapon, all of which belong to the same complex. Such embroideries were considered to be imports from Bactria.

On the other hand, the immense cemetery of Hsi-ch'a-kou (comprising 500 burials, but only partly excavated) was assigned to the Hsiung-nu (WW 1957 [I] and WW 1960 [8-9]). On the basis of Chinese coins found there, the graves can be dated to a rather short span during the first half of the first century B.C. According to the prevailing opinion among Soviet scholars, the Hsiung-nu had by then already transferred their main camps to the lands north of the Gobi (Minjaev 1975). The question is whether the ethnic identification is correct or not. The differences are indeed essential, not only with regard to older Hsiung-nu monuments of the region, but also in relation to finds belonging to relatively well-known settlers in Transbaikalia (Konovalov 1975; 1976). Many of the warriors from Hsi-ch'a-kou were buried with sword-blades of Chinese manufacture, but some of them had hilts made according to their own taste, perhaps strictly following the model of the previous period. There are also affinities (cheekpieces with a knob at the end) leading to toe complex whcih we assign to the Yueh-chih. But in any case, neither weapons nor ornaments are identical to those found in Transbaikalia.

Alternatively, were the people of this burial site barbarian allies of the Chinese, at whose disposal they placed superior weapons? How can one explain this difference? Were the warriors of Hsi-ch'a-kou members of a sort of task force much better equipped than the steelers in Transbaikalia--and perhaps recruited from various tribes? A comparison with the results of the export of arms (as practiced by the modern superpowers) comes readily to mind. In any case, the one-edged sword brought by the Huns to Europe may be derived from Chinese blades, such as those found here (Werner 1956).

On Soviet territory west of China, finds were made that may have belonged to garrisons of the Hsiung-nu. To these may be assigned graves near Mount Bajdag in Tuva (Mandel'stam 1975b) and others in Mongolia (Ulangom; see my German translation of Novgorodova et al. 1982).

The Tastyk Culture

As yet unvolved remains the puzzle of the Tastyk Culture in the Minusinsk Basin. Kyzlasov (1960) explained the apparent differences between Tastyk and the preceding Tagar Culture as pertaining to the heritage of immigrants from northwesetern Mongolia expelled by the Hsiung-nu at the beginning of the second century B.C. But at least some of the newcomers much have previously settled in the immediate borderlands of Han China. In the graves were found wooden animal figures, imitating the well-known grave figures and ceremonial umbrellas. The graphic art of the Tastyk people was perhaps imitating the "narrative" Han reliefs (Grjaznov 1971).

Summary

Enormous discoveries have been made in the field of East Asian archaeology in recent years. It has been confirmed that a major group of hightly active cultures existed there for a very long time, and that their interaction gave rise to the Chinese civilization.

Concertration on these problems has meant that in the new edition of Kwang-chih Chang's book the paragraphs dealing with the steppe peoples now seem very conservative. But in fact there are too many new materials and perceptions in this field. My bibligraphy of 1964, reprinted in 1967 (cf. Kwang-chih Chang 1977: 396) is out of date and does not deserve further consideration.

The rapidly expanding and ever-growing China had not only to deal with its periphery as before (e.g. the Ti, cf. Prusek 1971: 209-228), but also to interact with immigrants from the "Far West". New syntheses cannot overlook this fact, which is intimately connected with the question: Which waves of influence brought Western culrual goods such as wheat and barley to East Asia? The unexpected finds made in the soil of northern Afghanistan reveal the lack of information on many parts of Inner Asia and the continuing instability of our present state of knowledge.

POSTSCRIPT

When intense studies backed by fresh radiocarbon and thermoluminescent dates (Barnard 1975) indicated that the ancient civilizations of China-- growing up in different ecogeographical zones but united by frequent interactions--had deep and strong roots in the local earth, many competent scholars shared the tendency to consider China an almost independent theater of culture. Communications with rival theaters were not ruled out but were estimated to be rather unimportant during crucial periods. This attitude became obvious at the most interesting Conference on the Origins of Chinese Civilization, held at Berkeley, 26-30 June 1978, and in the resulting volume edited by Keightley (1983).

Due to the normal mode of scientific progress, after such a peak of general agreement a backlash will sooner or later follow. The tide must change, for only then shall we get a well-balanced result. In fact the backlash, or let us say the necessary complement, came almost immediately. This article was one of the conference papers not included in Keightley's volume. (I myself propsed that Keightley publish instead my review of a work by Krjukov, Sofronov, and Ceboksarov [1978], which presents the Soviet approach to a closely related problem--the origin of the Chinese people. In the meantime, two more volumes of this kind have appeared [Krjukov, Majavin, and Sofronov 1979 ; Krjukov, Perelomov, Sofronov, and Ceboksarov 1983].) Today this paper seems almost prophetic, However, it remains for me to point out certain aspects that are corroborated by new findings.

Evidence of Early Diffusion

One of the essential ideas of my article is that not the steppe belt itself but the areas such of it--northern Afghanistan and parts of Soviet and Chinese Central Asia--have to be studied to find evidence for migrations and early diffusion. This is substantiated now by a considerable number of observations. The Western scholar will find a most useful synopsis in the volume The Bronze Age Civilization of Central Asia edited by Philip L. Kohl (1981). Only one sentence from the introduction may be quoted (Kohl 1981: xxiii): "Present evidence is far from conclusive but suggests that food-producing cultures of the 'Middle Eastern type' may have spread from southern Turkmenia to the borders of Xinjiang, China, as early as the third millennium B.C. and may have provided the backdrop for the exchange of materials, such as silk and metals, between two major culture areas." (In fact, silk was found near Sapallitepa, north of the river Oxus, in graves belonging to the second millennium B.C.--Askarov 1977:726.).

I am convined that it is only due to the political situation that evidence is still "far from conclusive." 1. Regular digging in northern Afghanistan came to an end, and many promising sites and graveyards have since been plundered. (Jettmar 1981).

2. The site of Sarazm, situated on a flood terrace of the Zeravshan River and evidently revealing something like a Bronze Age metropolis, ought to be studied by means of large-scale excavations, with specialists for related complexses joinging the team. international coolaboration had been planned, but there is no hope that is can be implemented in the near future.

3. Excavation of prehistoric sites in the Tarim Basin would be most promising. The material should be studied by specialists in Bronze Age civilizations in order parts of Central Asia. Routes to the Far East must have crossed this region.

4. Observations indicating metallurgical centers of Western type in Gansu fit this picture, according to a short but highly interesting article by S. Kuczera. He stated in his concolusion that "some of those cultures are so close, chronologically and geographically, to the early Chinese dynasties that it is necessary to raise (and eventually resolve) the question of their mutual contacts and the possible influence of the Gansu centre of metal-making on the Shang-Yin civilisation. The most general conclusion that can be drawn from everything discussed above is that the correct understanding of the early periods of human history in the middle reaches of the Huanhe River, on the one hand, and Central Asia (outside China), on the other, is hadly possible without the knowledge and study of Gansu material" (Kuczera 1982:66)

W.T. Chase (1983:106) mentioned that some of the "contenders for the earliest Chinese metal objects" were produced not only by casting but also by additional hammering-definitely a Western trait. Moreover we are told: "There is something about all of these finds, and especially those from Gansu, that reminds us of the hoards and grave goods found on the steppes of central Asia. In fact, some of the later Gansu material has a definite stylistic affinity to central Asian decorative bosses and belt plaques. The shapes of the early knives, especially that from the Majiayao Culture (3000 B.C.), are very close to the Shang knives found at Anyang which show Siberian influence, and the Gansu macehead is closely paralleled by stone maceheads from South Russian and the Caucasus, suggesting a central Asian affinity." (cf. Jettmar 1980.)

The Importance of the Okunev Culture

In the northern fringes of the steppe belt, I stressed the extreme importance of the Okunev Culture which had on the one hand connections with the Far East and, on the other, definite links with the south of Central Asia.

Meanwhile I discovered a group of petroglyphs in the Indus Valley, near Chilas, that is connected with the engravings of the Okunev Culture by the main motifs and stylistic peculiarities. In addition to one report on my findings (Jettmar 1982: 298-302), others are forthcoming. It is not improbable that during the third and early second millemmia B.C. there were relations over thousands of kilometers, perhaps due to migrations of cattle-keeping Early Nomads. Other connections leading in the same direction were observed by Stacul (1977:251-252) and the Allchins (1982:111-116).

The Karasuk Culture

For the time that saw the emergence of the warlike Northern Nomads, the Karasuk period, Huttel took up my hint that a restudy of the development of the bridling system in China from Shang to Chou would be most rewarding. His paper (1979) comes to exactly the same conclusions as I expressed at the Berkeley conference.

No comments are needed on the later parts of my study. The discovery of a royal necropolis in northern Afghanistan (Sarianidi 1983) representing a dynasty rivaling the preimperial Kushans is of extreme importance. But these rulers were perhaps Saka, not Yueh-chih. Other Soviet studies are more pertinent to the problem I dealt with, but their discussion would need a separate article.

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 06:37 AM
And nobody has suggested that Chinese civilisation was founded by Caucasoids, but that a Central Asian influence in the Bronze Age of China was important to Chinese culture, and that such a migration led to Xia state formation, either by conquest or by forcing a response to their raids.

I've consistently questioned the methodology of these people touting 'evidence that Aryans brought culture to China.' Some mummies in a remote, isolated province do not constitute a cultural invasion. China was civilized before the Aryans were organized enough to have an impact, anyway. People need to get over this whole "white people created everything good ever."

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 10:24 AM
I've consistently questioned the methodology of these people touting 'evidence that Aryans brought culture to China.' Some mummies in a remote, isolated province do not constitute a cultural invasion. China was civilized before the Aryans were organized enough to have an impact, anyway. People need to get over this whole "white people created everything good ever."

This isnt about the presence of "Celtic" people in Xinjiang which wasnt then a part of China. And from what I know, most of them werent even that Celtic-looking anyway, but Pamirid. The archeological evidence suggests that there was ethnic influence from the west reaching China through Xinjiang at this time, causing the Bronze Age in China. In Xinjiang as in China, wheat and bronze first appear at this time.

Maybe the influence on China wasnt from Indo-Iranians or even Tocharians (I suspect that the migration from the Pamirs into Xinjiang at around eight centuries later, mignt have introduced Tocharian language into Xinjiang), but theres lots of evidence that cultural influences arrived from a western direction, and thoughh they could have entered China through trade, it fits the evidence that drying of the climate caused migrations towards the east that reached China.

ahxiang
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 04:32 AM
The following is what I had replied to a reader. It will serve some purpose to diffuse the wild claims that the West had considerable input into the Chinese civilization. Note that China, burials prior to 21st BC had already contained "copper utensils". Shang Dynasty's bronze heavily utilized tin from either Southwest China or the tin hill from the Yangtze River mouth. The brilliant bronze technology is something no other civilization in the whole world could match.


=======================
The writings on Huns, Turks & Mongols were mostly workings 2-3 years ago while I was taking advantage of the slacks available at my old job in HP. Recently, I had added a few paragraphs to prehistory, & Xia Shang dynasties, mostly for sake of diffusing an ongoing propoganda of slamming Chinese civilization via a digging-in of the mummies in Chinese Turkistan.
As to the Silk Road, I want to offer some points for you to construe my thinkings. I fully understand the role played by the Silk Road in history. However, there were at least two more roads that could have more important roles than Silk Road 2000 years ago. We called "Zhang Qian's Trip To Central Asia" in 138 BC, http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#ZhangQian as something "opening up the vacuum". Why so? Zhang Qian was the first government official who was sent on a mission to the West though Chinese classics had descriptions of remote lands even earlier, which were most likely acts by individual travellers or merchants, other than Zhou King Muwang's rondevous wuth Queen Mother of the West on Mt Kunlun. However, Zhang Qian informed us that he saw in Afghanistan some Chinese bamboo products that locals said were shipped over from India. It proved that the route through Southwestern China was more feasible and practical than the Silk Road across the Deserts. Certainly, we know the sea routes also existed between Rome and China, by which the silk had actually been shipped rather than via the more precarious land of conflicting statelests and tribes. When General Li Guangli campaigned against Dawan (Kokand?, Fergana Valley) in 104 BC, he lost majority of tens of thousands of troops on the first try, and had to return with less than 20% of the forces in about 2 years timeframe. The Silk Road was not even something the Tang Chinese could manage initially. If you had read the records of Tang Monk Xuanzhuang, you would understand why he almost died in desert due to lack of water and oasis. Monk Xuanzang's accounts clearly pointed out that along the deseat road was piles of skeletons. Even after he passed the desert, he still had to face raiding banditry once a while. People who claimed nomadic propogation of horse and cavalry would propose a northern belt route. Should we read Chinese records, then we often encountered passages like the nomads losing 6-7 out of 10 people and cattle during some storms. Even Zhizhi Chanyu Huns had lost quite some of their fighters during the relocation to Kang-ju territory. While Zhizhi Chanyu stationed in Jiankun territory, Kangju (Sogdia) king intended to attack the Wusun Statelet with the Hunnic assistance. Kangju (Sogdia) king sent an emissary to Zhizhi, with a gift of several thousands of camels and horses. On the way to Kangju (Sogdia), Zhizhi Chanyu lost quite some people due to cold weather. About 3000 remnants arrived in Kangju territory for tha alliance. So, you could tell it was never a freidnly environment on the steppe, and it is hard to construe any trade between the West and East. In contrast, hsitorical Chinese records points to Chinese Trukistan as the source of jade and diamond, not to mention horses.
An incidental word about Chinese Muslims. This is in regards to your request for me to take a look at 'Muslim in China'(in Han) by Ma Zh'h Pe. I understand that Northwestern and Western China had been the sphere of Islam. A similar propoganda going on in regards to Chinese Muslims would be to claim that those people were descendants of Arabs, Persians or Jews. It really shows the complexity of the issue since the three groups of people, as we know, had totally different religious origins. This claim, like the mummies, had made the water muddy, and led to the acknoledgement of some Chinese Muslims that they were not Chinese at all. This issomething academics need to set it right while researching into this area. I once read Sidney Shapiro's writing. I did not deny the existence of Central Asians or Muslims of Central Asia origin in history; however, their presence inside of China would be limited to a few outposts on the frontier, or some posts in garrison cities, or some ghetto in commercial centers. As to Chinese muslims, a good history would be shown at http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Aug/72893.htm

ahxiang
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 04:39 AM
The writings on Huns, Turks & Mongols were mostly workings 2-3 years ago. Recently, I had added a few paragraphs to prehistory, & Xia Shang dynasties, mostly for sake of diffusing an ongoing propoganda of slamming Chinese civilization via a digging-in of the mummies in Chinese Turkistan.

As to the Silk Road, I want to offer some points for you to construe my thinkings. I fully understand the role played by the Silk Road in history. However, there were at least two more roads that could have more important roles than Silk Road 2000 years ago. We called "Zhang Qian's Trip To Central Asia" in 138 BC, http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#ZhangQian as something "opening up the vacuum". Why so? Zhang Qian was the first government official who was sent on a mission to the West though Chinese classics had descriptions of remote lands even earlier, which were most likely acts by individual travellers or merchants, other than Zhou King Muwang's rondevous wuth Queen Mother of the West on Mt Kunlun. However, Zhang Qian informed us that he saw in Afghanistan some Chinese bamboo products that locals said were shipped over from India. It proved that the route through Southwestern China was more feasible and practical than the Silk Road across the Deserts. Certainly, we know the sea routes also existed between Rome and China, by which the silk had actually been shipped rather than via the more precarious land of conflicting statelests and tribes. When General Li Guangli campaigned against Dawan (Kokand?, Fergana Valley) in 104 BC, he lost majority of tens of thousands of troops on the first try, and had to return with less than 20% of the forces in about 2 years timeframe. The Silk Road was not even something the Tang Chinese could manage initially. If you had read the records of Tang Monk Xuanzhuang, you would understand why he almost died in desert due to lack of water and oasis. Monk Xuanzang's accounts clearly pointed out that along the deseat road was piles of skeletons. Even after he passed the desert, he still had to face raiding banditry once a while. People who claimed nomadic propogation of horse and cavalry would propose a northern belt route. Should we read Chinese records, then we often encountered passages like the nomads losing 6-7 out of 10 people and cattle during some storms. Even Zhizhi Chanyu Huns had lost quite some of their fighters during the relocation to Kang-ju territory. While Zhizhi Chanyu stationed in Jiankun territory, Kangju (Sogdia) king intended to attack the Wusun Statelet with the Hunnic assistance. Kangju (Sogdia) king sent an emissary to Zhizhi, with a gift of several thousands of camels and horses. On the way to Kangju (Sogdia), Zhizhi Chanyu lost quite some people due to cold weather. About 3000 remnants arrived in Kangju territory for tha alliance. So, you could tell it was never a freidnly environment on the steppe, and it is hard to construe any trade between the West and East. In contrast, hsitorical Chinese records points to Chinese Trukistan as the source of jade and diamond, not to mention horses.

An incidental word about Chinese Muslims. I understand that Northwestern and Western China had been the sphere of Islam. A similar propoganda going on in regards to Chinese Muslims would be to claim that those people were descendants of Arabs, Persians or Jews. It really shows the complexity of the issue since the three groups of people, as we know, had totally different religious origins. This claim, like the mummies, had made the water muddy, and led to the acknoledgement of some Chinese Muslims that they were not Chinese at all. This issomething academics need to set it right while researching into this area. I once read Sidney Shapiro's writing. I did not deny the existence of Central Asians or Muslims of Central Asia origin in history; however, their presence inside of China would be limited to a few outposts on the frontier, or some posts in garrison cities, or some ghetto in commercial centers. As to Chinese muslims, a good history would be shown at http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Aug/72893.htm