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Taras Bulba
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 01:39 AM
...there is something I would like to ask you: would you happen to know anything about the Crimean Goths besides the accounts normally given about them such as the one on this link?
http://germa.germsem.uni-kiel.de/gotisch/krimgot.html

For instance, were they all carried off to slavery by the Turks, were they absorbed by the Crimean Tatars, or did they survive till the days of Stalin? I suppose there must be Ukrainian records of the goths and not just accounts by Westerners, and if so, where would it be possible to reference these? Actually, I'm interested in any information you may be able to provide!;)Well I have currently Ukraine: a concise encyclopaedia by Volodymyr Kubiiovych and Ukraine: A History by Orest Subtelny. I can consult these sources for the time being on what they say about the Crimean Goths.

Anyways....glad to know you're a Ukrainophile. :)

WestPrussian
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 01:46 AM
Well I have currently Ukraine: a concise encyclopaedia by Volodymyr Kubiiovych and Ukraine: A History by Orest Subtelny. I can consult these sources for the time being on what they say about the Crimean Goths.

Anyways....glad to know you're a Ukrainophile. :)That would be great! I doubt the goths are important enough to show up in some general history on the Ukraine, but yes, I am interested, so thanks in advance!

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 02:24 AM
Actually Ukraine: a concise encyclopaedia by Volodymyr Kubiiovych deals quite alot with race and phenotypes of the early Ukrainians and I do remember reading something about Goths or Nordics populating the area at one time.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, October 6th, 2004, 01:49 PM
I just read Ukraine: a concise encyclopaedia last night it does mention the presence of Goths in the Ukraine around the 2nd century AD but were conquered and eventually driven out by the Huns. Hope this info helps. :)

WestPrussian
Saturday, October 9th, 2004, 12:38 AM
I just read Ukraine: a concise encyclopaedia last night it does mention the presence of Goths in the Ukraine around the 2nd century AD but were conquered and eventually driven out by the Huns. Hope this info helps. :)
Thanks! Well it does show that Crimean Goths are not of great interest to Ukrainians ;( so I guess it helps in a way...of course most Goths left Russia and the Ukraine and went on to conquer the Roman Empire, but that's hardly anything new. I'm actually rather surprised that you never heard of the Crimean Goths who had their own kingdom there until the 18th century, but I guess Ukrainians have had other worries. Thanks again for taking the trouble of looking this up for me!

Regards

Taras Bulba
Saturday, October 9th, 2004, 05:14 PM
I'm actually rather surprised that you never heard of the Crimean Goths who had their own kingdom there until the 18th century, but I guess Ukrainians have had other worries.

No I wasnt aware of this. I've always read that it is was the Tatars who had the kingdom in Crimea untill the 18th century.

heidenbua
Tuesday, November 1st, 2005, 02:37 PM
German wikipedia tells:

Crimean Gothic language existed until the 16th century.


Krimgoten

aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie

Wechseln zu: Navigation (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krimgoten#column-one), Suche (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krimgoten#searchInput)
Die Krimgoten sind aus dem Teil der Goten (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goten) hervorgegangen, die sich im Jahre 257 (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/257) auf der Krim (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krim), am Schwarzen Meer (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzes_Meer) niederließen, wo sie zu Verbündeten Roms (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom) wurden. Sie machten Dori (http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dori&action=edit) zu ihrer Hauptstadt und hinterließen eine Reihe von Baudenkmälern, die Gotenburgen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotenburgen). Noch lange existierten gotische Fürstentümer auf der Krim, die Bevölkerung vermischte sich jedoch bald. Erst im 16. Jahrhundert (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/16._Jahrhundert) starb die krimgotische Sprache (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krimgotische_Sprache) (siehe auch: gotische Sprache (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotische_Sprache)) aus.
Das Dritte Reich leitete aus der Existenz der als deutsch empfundenen Krimgoten Besitzansprüche auf die Krim ab und benannte sie in Neugotland um.

Oswiu
Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 12:57 AM
So which other ethnos absorbed the Goths once they had lost their tongue? Were they staunchly Christian to the end? If so, I imagine they would most naturally have fused with the Pontic Greeks on the Peninsula. I suppose the 16th Century is far too early for them to have been absorbed by the equally Christian Russians, who were yet to reach the Crimea?

[[[Or, Gods forbid! Were any taken into the Tatar nation?!? Desperate times...?]]]

Leofric
Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 01:06 AM
The last speakers of Eastern Germanic languages of whom we know were heavily Hellenized — one was even a native speaker of Greek who had learned Gothic as a second language. I would guess that the Crimean Goths were mostly assimilated into Greek culture. But others might know better than I.

Oswiu
Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 01:24 AM
I wonder were there mass emigrations from the Cimmerian Peleponesos when the Turkics took over? That way, the descendants of the last Goths would now be found in Greece proper [most likely after a few centuries stop over in Asia Minor before the population exchanges of the 1920s].
I know a few Greeks stayed behind near the Sea of Azov [one such lady was my doctor in Moscow - a very nice person], but how many stayed on the Krim?

Bluterbe
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 08:02 PM
I wonder were there mass emigrations from the Cimmerian Peleponesos when the Turkics took over? That way, the descendants of the last Goths would now be found in Greece proper [most likely after a few centuries stop over in Asia Minor before the population exchanges of the 1920s].
I know a few Greeks stayed behind near the Sea of Azov [one such lady was my doctor in Moscow - a very nice person], but how many stayed on the Krim?

In 18th century christians (incl. Goths) were settled through russia from the Krim to the Sea of Azov. These Goths must have finish in the greeks. The others that stayed on the Krim were assmiliated in the muslim tatars, but have spoken there gotic language some years after the evacuation of the christs from the Krim.

Oswiu
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 08:42 PM
The others that stayed on the Krim were assmiliated in the muslim tatars, but have spoken there gotic language some years after the evacuation of the christs from the Krim.
Do you really think that some Tatars are the descendants of the Goths? Do we know for sure that this 'Evacuation' was complete? Was it a recorded historical event, for example - do we know which Khan enacted it and why? If it was still in living memory in the time of the Russian conquest, then any possible 'false converts' to Islam could easily have reverted to their older affiliations. Lots of Christians in Anatolia survived underground for many decades, and are possibly still there.
If some Goths were indeed Tatarised, and one would assume Islamised too, then they may just as likely have assimilated into the invading Russian society. Was there much mixing of Tatar and Russian under early Russian rule in the Crimea?

Klegutati
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 08:31 PM
Crimean Tatars of the Steppe (mainland Ukraine), are mixed Turkics, and Mongols, but the Coastal Tatars, are descended from Goths, Greeks, Scythians, Sarmatians...:thumbup

Goth Tetraxit
Sunday, January 3rd, 2010, 03:20 PM
Dear friends, if the theme interesting for you yet, I can to write something on it. There is an interestnig Russian book on this theme - "Crimean Gothia", by A. Pioro.

Catterick
Monday, April 18th, 2016, 05:35 PM
There is a myth that certain Tatar or Cossack groups round Crimea are particularly Gothic therefore Germanic. Common sense says there be truth in this same as Tatars often have Alan origins, but appeal to descent from ancient Goths has been mostly a political thing.

Luminous Terror
Tuesday, August 27th, 2019, 09:59 AM
Calling them Goths is something of a misnomer. Crimean Gothic is indeed east germanic but it's not actually descended from Gothic

Þoreiðar
Tuesday, August 27th, 2019, 12:20 PM
Calling them Goths is something of a misnomer. Crimean Gothic is indeed east germanic but it's not actually descended from GothicI had to read up on this, and found that there seems to be some contention in academic circles of both the origin of the 'Crimean Goths' (as a distinct ethnos) and 'Crimean Gothic' (as a language).

On the Wikipedia page of Dory/Doros/Mangup (the past capital of the Crimean Goths), it says; "According to the 6th-century Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesarea, the region of Dory or Doros was settled by those Ostrogoths who refused to follow Theodoric the Great in his invasion of Italy in the 490s, marking the beginning of the Crimean Goths and their homeland, Gothia."

While a Flemish ambassador to Constantinople, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, wrote a report on the on the Crimean Goths in 1595, stating that he could not determine whether the they and their language was descended from Goths, or another Germanic tribe and language.

Indeed, there seems to be a good amount of evidence pointing to Crimean Gothic language originating from either West or North Germanic languages, instead of old Gothic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic#Identification_and_classi fication

Luminous Terror
Wednesday, August 28th, 2019, 02:10 AM
I don't buy the idea of Crimean Gothic being West or North Germanic. Its core vocabulary shows clear East Germanic features. Personally, I think it's an East Germanic language with western influence