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Hellstar
Thursday, February 13th, 2003, 08:07 PM
Through decades of physical Anthropology it has been widely acknowledged that the Dinarics have been showing resemblances to the Armenoid race (Armenians were dominating figures in the old Syrian kingdoms) The Dinarics shows resemblance to the Armenians which are more fine build in their constitution whereas the Dinaric are as tall as the central Nordish races, and with one exception of coal black niggers in Africa are to be counted as one of the tallest races found in the world as we know it. The Dinaric flat occipital, the long hooked depressed convex nose, parts of physiognomy are found in Armenians, The Dinarics are considerable larger people though, both the Dinarics & Armenoids shows nexus to a race from the Iranian high border landscape called the Plateau race, this Plateau race is more narrow faced and long sculled than the Armenoid race in contrast, the Armenoids race has more light pigmented individuals as well (due to perhaps EB interference in their gene poll) all this prior described races shows of cause links to the North Semitic tribes, this correlation is interesting in our understanding of their whole heir ship, I would like to dedicate this thread to the understanding of this race convergence.

I will here, say a few of the general traits among these races, and I will say the only divergence I know of among these races, and I hope we can solve more of the puzzle together,

Dinarics tend to be tall, heavy boned (yet slender) their musculature is medium and not as developed as in the Nordics, their legs are long and arms short, their hair pigmentation is darker than in the alpines even, their hair abundance is also of great amount. They tend to have wrinkles from the side of the nose down to the mouth ending, they appear with as tall foreheads as seen in Hallstatt Nordics, Dinaric chin often longer Than in hallstatt Nordics, Dinaric face shape is square rather than Rhombish or Oval as seen in the Hallstatt Nordics, sometimes dark massive eye brows, Dinaric skin seems to have this yellowish contrast (abit like the Alpine) perhaps just the skin blend of Mediterranean and Alpine after all, A Dinaric forehead is typical wide from the Alpine element, some True Nordics are even described as broad foreheaded also (I cant remember the source, sorry) but its my belieft that the Hallstatt forehead is more compressed from the cranium eye cage than effluenting sideways like the Dinaric forehead often do, the Dinaric nose is of cause long and leptorrhine, high bridged, but more concave and convex and slight more depressed than in the Hallstatts case, the Hallstatt nose can appear convex and depressed also, but its very typical with the long transition from nasal skeleton to the ending of softer parts, often with a thumb under the nose of a hallstatts will reveal if its convex enough, in the Dinaric nose, you will often see the convexity begin further up the nasal root than in the Hallstatts. The Dinarics have smaller eyes and the dark brown colour is dominant trait. Their eyes are not that small though, their eye signal self-defiance and slightly provoking signals and sometimes-even need for attention or self-loss.

Little is known about the next type which is the Iranian Plateau type, except they seem to be a even darker pigmented Dinaric type with perhaps some oriental interference and more Negroid hair, they appear eve more hooked nosed than the Dinarics, as hooked nosed as the old portrayed north Semitics (moderns term would be Ashkenazim Jews or east Jews) the Plateau race seems smaller build also, just like in the Armenians case, the Armenians have broader foreheads also as the true deviant among the 3 subtypes, plateau and Dinarics are long sculled and narrow faced but more in Plateau morphology, its a wonder to me why someone with long nose, tall forehead, long chin can appear medium face height compared to a standard Nordic Hallstatt which can have less chin and lesser forehead, the whole profile of Dinarics will explain, where the Nordic head goes more sloping all the way back, the Dinaric head top gradually exceeds the forehead conjecture.

As I said earlier, I want to study the convergence and divergence among these subtypes. HEIL

Von Braun
Thursday, February 13th, 2003, 09:41 PM
It looks like Armenoids as we know them today, including ashkenazim jews, resulted from mixing between eastern Dinarics and certain Mongoloid and sub-saharran strains. Is the jew Leonard Nimoy (Spock from Star Trek) a good example of such a mongrel? He is ashkenazim and looks very asiatic.

Keep in mind that there is a branch of ashkenazim jews that is no doubt a mix of this mix and East Baltics and/or certain other Nordish groups. So we have Armenoids (the aforementioned combination) and Armenoid-Nordic combinations (as yet unnamed), all of them mongrelized.

Razmig
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 01:47 AM
It looks like Armenoids as we know them today, including ashkenazim jews, resulted from mixing between eastern Dinarics and certain Mongoloid and sub-saharran strains. Is the jew Leonard Nimoy (Spock from Star Trek) a good example of such a mongrel? He is ashkenazim and looks very asiatic.

Keep in mind that there is a branch of ashkenazim jews that is no doubt a mix of this mix and East Baltics and/or certain other Nordish groups. So we have Armenoids (the aforementioned combination) and Armenoid-Nordic combinations (as yet unnamed), all of them mongrelized.
Arn't you an Iranian?

The fact that you categorized the Ashkenazis (Caucasians of Russia whome have no affiliation with Israel) with Semites is pretty stupid. The origins of the IE are of Hamatic (Indo-Hittite) and expressed the similarity between ancient Egyptian (influenced Hebrew very much so, as did Hittite) and Celtic.

This thread is a flawed observation of both subgroups.

Razmig
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 01:49 AM
It looks like Armenoids as we know them today, including ashkenazim jews, resulted from mixing between eastern Dinarics and certain Mongoloid and sub-saharran strains. Is the jew Leonard Nimoy (Spock from Star Trek) a good example of such a mongrel? He is ashkenazim and looks very asiatic.
Am I then to assume that all eastern europeans, middle easterners, and mediteranneans, as well as central europeans are mongrels? Hmmm... How is it that the Dinaric/Armenoid is a mixture with Mongoloids when there are more genetic similarities in the north (with Finns, and Lapps whome have rounded occupits) than with those in the Balkans and Anatolia (with exception for Turanid Muslim Turks). Remember the IE's spread from Anatolia into the Balkans, and not the other way around.

Awar
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 02:08 AM
AFAIK Leonard Nimoy is a Fin, not a Jew.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 02:12 AM
Remember the IE's spread from Anatolia into the Balkans, and not the other way around.

*They* lived maybe on both sides of the Bosporus and around the Black Sea which was on a much lower level than today, but can you enlighten me why considering they roots lay in the Natufian stock, why there aren't traces of IE languages or PIE in Palestine and the Near East, unless from much more posterior date than the spread of the first farmers and coming from the Russian Steppes in the North(Bronze Age)?

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Arn't you an Iranian?

The fact that you categorized the Ashkenazis (Caucasians of Russia whome have no affiliation with Israel) with Semites is pretty stupid. The origins of the IE are of Hamatic (Indo-Hittite) and expressed the similarity between ancient Egyptian (influenced Hebrew very much so, as did Hittite) and Celtic.

The furthest east part of my family came from Germany. The farthest south came from France. The rest is English, Scottish, and some Swiss. Hence the meta-ethnicity you see displayed as "Germanic."

Ashkenazi do show a close relationship to Sephardics and Arabs when blood tests are taken. How can you be so sure that they are not actually a three-way mix: Armenoid, Arabid (e.g., Diaspora Hebrew---perhaps the ones who converted the Khazars via coming into contact with them in the eigth century), and some Mongoloid?

Razmig
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:33 AM
The furthest east part of my family came from Germany. The farthest south came from France. The rest is English, Scottish, and some Swiss. Hence the meta-ethnicity you see displayed as "Germanic."

Ashkenazi do show a close relationship to Sephardics and Arabs when blood tests are taken. How can you be so sure that they are not actually a three-way mix: Armenoid, Arabid (e.g., Diaspora Hebrew---perhaps the ones who converted the Khazars via coming into contact with them in the eigth century), and some Mongoloid?
How do you figure this? What blood tests are you talking about?

Razmig
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:38 AM
*They* lived maybe on both sides of the Bosporus and around the Black Sea which was on a much lower level than today, but can you enlighten me why considering they roots lay in the Natufian stock, why there aren't traces of IE languages or PIE in Palestine and the Near East, unless from much more posterior date than the spread of the first farmers and coming from the Russian Steppes in the North(Bronze Age)?
The Palestinians (Filistiny) are a tribe that migrated to the region from Thracia. As I've said before, Arab domination has forced all peoples to speak Arabic (such as Lebanon, Syria, Kurdistan, North Africa), and there is a difference between ancient Hamatic/Indo-Hittite (pre IE) Balkano-Anatolian language that spread into the region, and modern day evololved IE language. If you can see in this map, the IE speakers spread from Anatolia south to Iran, through Central Asia, then into Russia. Invading tribes somtimes don't take with them their tongue, in the case of the Hayksos (Hellenes) into Anatolia, they did bring with them language, the only lasting Phyrgo-Thracian language today (Armenian).

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/homeland.jpg

Razmig
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:46 AM
AFAIK Leonard Nimoy is a Fin, not a Jew.
You're wrong. :~( I don't like the way he looks, he's a Jew. :D

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:05 AM
I've just seen (haplotype?) studies that show that Ashkenazi and Sephardics are close relatives afterall, implying that Ashkenazi may well indeed be part Arabid (ancient Hebrew) afterall.

The whole issue of cephalic index comes into play here (Dinarics and unmixed Armenoids having high CIs while pure Arabids having low CIs, and Jews, being the mix of almost every Eurasian and even African thing under the sun, probably run the whole spectrum of CIs, just like they span the whole spectrum of other things like hair color).

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:36 AM
I think you are deeply wrong, Northstar. You are a person who shows an evident disgrace concerning Alpines and also Dinarids. First of all, you should be so kind to tell us your basis for your speculations concerning some resemblance between the Dinarids and Armenoids and Alpines.

Do you really think the small number of "pure" Nordids (if this really exist) are able or will ever be able to impose in this continent and in the whole world, just by themselves? Come on, if you really are a Nordid, you should make use of the thing called logic before posting such speculations.

Graeme
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Coon claimed that Dinarics were the result of a particular blending of Alpines with certain Meds sub types. The Noric being a further blend with Nordids.

I do feel that Dinarics became Armenids and Orientalids the further east one moves from SE Europe to Turkey and the Middle East. The skull shapes and nose shapes are similar.

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 02:11 PM
I do feel that Dinarics became Armenids and Orientalids the further east one moves from SE Europe to Turkey and the Middle East. The skull shapes and nose shapes are similar.

Really? Have you ever been in those place of which you're speaking with so much disgust? Have you ever know people from Central and Eastern Europe?

Well, I attach some photos to this message (me and a firnd of mine) and you tell me if I look so "Armenid and Orientalid".

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 04:29 PM
You do look Alpinid but one can see Karpathid features too, especially of the nasal shape.



Really? Have you ever been in those place of which you're speaking with so much disgust? Have you ever know people from Central and Eastern Europe?

Well, I attach some photos to this message (me and a firnd of mine) and you tell me if I look so "Armenid and Orientalid".

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Are Karpathids supposed to be Orientalid?

I do agree with Graeme if he is saying that there are people outside of Europe who are part Dinaric, part something else.

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:22 PM
Are Karpathids supposed to be Orientalid?

I do agree with Graeme if he is saying that there are people outside of Europe who are part Dinaric, part something else.

I can assure that Central Europe is in Europe and it is not a region inside the USA. And Romania is partly Central Europe, I think and I argue.

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:27 PM
I can assure that Central Europe is in Europe and it is not a region inside the USA. And Romania is partly Central Europe, I think and I argue.

I agree. I think the people in question here (and pretty much everywhere else in Europe) count as Dinarics. Look at McCulloch's stuff: he lists subtypes in each country, and never mentions Armenoids, but does mention Dinarics. Apparently Volksdeutscher uses "Karpathid" as a synonym to "Dinaric" when he talks about central Europeans.

Armenoids apparently are Dinarics who mixed with middle eastern elements.

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:33 PM
You do look Alpinid but one can see Karpathid features too, especially of the nasal shape.

Hallo, Volksdeutscher, wie geht's?

What do you understand exactly by Karpathid? I know about my nose form, somebody told me it was Dinaric. Well, my family is mostly mostly originating from Transylvania, where as I saw, the majority pure Transylvanians are alpino-nordid/borreby (the Romanians), ladogan-mongoloid (the Hungarians) and nordid (the Germans). The Gypsie minority is supposed to be part of the Dravidic subrace, but sometimes, even Pontids or non-fine Dinarics may be called Gypsies by people there.
There is also some Dinarid in Transylvania, but in smaller number, I think.

The rest of my family comes from Southern Romania, Wallachia. Well, there is somehow different, the bigger majority is formed of Dinarics and Pontids. Gypsies are somehow more integrated, even if not at very high degree. There is also a minority of Alpines.

The other regions of Romania, Moldova (I have no family from that region) is more Neo-Danubian in the North and more Dinarid-Pontid in the South. There is also a minority of Ladogans.

Dobrogea, the most SE part is formed mostly by Pontids, but there are also a number of Alpines, sometimes combined with Med.

Does this give to anybody an Oriental image? At least not to me.

I wait for your opinion, everybody.

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Marius, I would never mistake you for a middle easterner.

Alpines, Dinarics, Nordics, and probably every other European group came to Europe through the near/middle east. Nordics have just as much of a link to the middle east with hybrids showing up there with partial Nordic traits, as do Alpines, Dinarics, or gracile Mediterraneans do (as these types also have hybrid cousins in the near/middle east). The bottom line is you do not look like a contemporary middle easterner, rather you look like a mix of solely European strains to me.

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Marius, I would never mistake you for a middle easterner.

Hello.

I wanted to continue the previous post and say that after 1918, when all the presented regions unite, there were some population shift, from a region to another like in any other country, so now the landscape may be more uniform. It's a bit like the USA, I think. I don't know exactly the situation there.
First there were the American Indians, then Europeans arrived, but I am sure some mixture appeared, then some Afro-American arrived and now the Central-Americans. So, I think all this population shift gave place to important mixtures, which you may see somehow in Europe, also.

That's why I think each individual must be treated after his own value as a human being, which may be totally different of the average of his/her subrace or race.

Don't you think so?

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:18 PM
No, they are not. Orientalids are low skulled and long headed, and also much longer faced and leaner.


Are Karpathids supposed to be Orientalid?

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:30 PM
No, they are not. Orientalids are low skulled and long headed, and also much longer faced and leaner.

Also, to set things straight, are you using "Arabid" synonymously with "Orientalid?" The low skulled and long-headed thing sounds like a description of an Arabid, and I have also seen some sources use these terms synonymously, while others use "Oriental" in a very generic way to mean anything from the east. In that sense, all Europid subtypes have Oriental roots (albeit of varying distances in the past) since to get from sub-saharran Africa to Europe you pretty much have to go through the near east and middle east.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Es geht gut, danke.

What I understand of Karpathid is that it is a short headed and dark type that resemble Gorid (as your facial shape) as for certain facial characteristics. It is the same as the Litoral race of Deniker. However, the nose is larger than the Gorid (from Polish gora = mountain). According to the Swedish physical anthropologist Bertil Lundman it is due to ancient Armenid strains which he claim is also the view of Hungarian investigators. Lundman (1943) put it in a Taurid group where the sub races are Dinarid, mtebin (from Georgian mtebi = mountain) and the shorter Armenoid with a strongly fleshy nose, and the Karpathid which is supposed to be a relatively modern type. In 1977 he wrote that it "originated from mixtures of Mediterraneans with Armenids". In Jordens Folkstammar (1988), p. 50 Lundman wrote that ot could have arisen in ancient times through a mixture of NW Hungary's mine regions between the (already fairly Alpinid?) native inhabitants and mountain of Armenoid race.

The Karpathid type is common in Central - and Eastern Europe. I do not think that you would be out place in even some Swiss cantons.

Who claimed that Romania got even an Orientalid minority? I have met mostly ethnic Hungarians from Transylvania so it is difficult for me to say. I met a Turkish minority from Romania. This young man is tall, 198 cm and he has fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. He spoke Turkish and saw himself as a Turk from Romania, but I do not know all of his ancestry. That was quite surprising!

Well your people the Romanians are in Bessarabia, Moldau and Wallachia of mesocephalic, with all kinds of folk and races mixed Pontids, in Siebenbürgen often of the same mixture as in Galizien: short statured, short headed and high skulled with weakly hooked noses (rather an East Baltid-Karpathid type).

I read that the people in Dobrudscha are not Romanians. Is that true?



Hallo, Volksdeutscher, wie geht's?

What do you understand exactly by Karpathid? I know about my nose form, somebody told me it was Dinaric. Well, my family is mostly mostly originating from Transylvania, where as I saw, the majority pure Transylvanians are alpino-nordid/borreby (the Romanians), ladogan-mongoloid (the Hungarians) and nordid (the Germans). The Gypsie minority is supposed to be part of the Dravidic subrace, but sometimes, even Pontids or non-fine Dinarics may be called Gypsies by people there.
There is also some Dinarid in Transylvania, but in smaller number, I think.

The rest of my family comes from Southern Romania, Wallachia. Well, there is somehow different, the bigger majority is formed of Dinarics and Pontids. Gypsies are somehow more integrated, even if not at very high degree. There is also a minority of Alpines.

The other regions of Romania, Moldova (I have no family from that region) is more Neo-Danubian in the North and more Dinarid-Pontid in the South. There is also a minority of Ladogans.

Dobrogea, the most SE part is formed mostly by Pontids, but there are also a number of Alpines, sometimes combined with Med.

Does this give to anybody an Oriental image? At least not to me.

I wait for your opinion, everybody.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 07:11 PM
I am using Orientalid and Arabid interchangeably. I am using it to describe a specific type. The Arabid or Orientalid is remotely related to Insular (the West Mediterranid) which is common in Iberia. Both are long headed and low skulled, dark, long - and narrow faced with straight noses. B Lundman believe the low skulled Europids are derived from Cro-Magnoids whereas the high skulled types from the Brünn race.

By boat you can also get through the straight of Gibraltar. What about through the Mediterranean Sea?

There are usually claims that Southern Italy got a strong Orientalid element. Nevertheless, the remnant from the Arabs in Sicily is more Armenoid and Saharid than it is Orientalid.



Also, to set things straight, are you using "Arabid" synonymously with "Orientalid?" The low skulled and long-headed thing sounds like a description of an Arabid, and I have also seen some sources use these terms synonymously, while others use "Oriental" in a very generic way to mean anything from the east. In that sense, all Europid subtypes have Oriental roots (albeit of varying distances in the past) since to get from sub-saharran Africa to Europe you pretty much have to go through the near east and middle east.

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 07:13 PM
Are Dinaric and Karpathid mutually exclusive (a person cannot be classified as both), or can someone be classified as both?

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 07:32 PM
They share some characteristics. The composition is similar but not the same. What they share is the big and weakly to strongly hooked nose, flat occiput, high vault, short head and dark pigmentation.

I do not see the reason of classifying a person as both. It is difficult to define the differences as it is.

Lundman believe that Dinarid is a Pontid offshot. Coon seem to define Dinarid as a variable type.

"Apparently a brachycephalized blend in which Atlanto-Mediterranean and Cappadocian strains are important, with Alpine acting as the brachycephalizing agent in mixture. Borreby and Corded elements, also Nordic, appear to be involved in some regions." (The Races of Europe by Carleton Coon, Chapter VIII, section 6)

Cappadocian is according to Coon a small Mediterranid from Asia Minor.

He wrote under the same chapter that, "The difference between the Armenoid and the Dinaric is that here it is the Irano-Afghan race which furnishes the Mediterranean element, brachycephalized by Alpine mixture."

I wonder if Coon mean a Pontid by Atlanto-Mediterranean. I must say that at least Coon tried to explain the origin in a more satisfactory way than Lundman does. But if Borreby and Corded elements and Nordid is involved in some regions then I wonder if one should any longer call that a Dinarid.

The brachycephalisation is the main problem. That is probably in some cases a result of that almost all sub races (less so in the England and Sweden) were affected by a brachycephalisation during the Middle Ages.




Are Dinaric and Karpathid mutually exclusive (a person cannot be classified as both), or can someone be classified as both?

Von Braun
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 07:40 PM
@ Volksdeutscher: In regard to the first point about boats, I was exluding that a priori when discussing ancient migrations.

Did you once classify me and my mother as a Karpathid? My mother is 100% German, and on sub-racial percentage breakdowns for Germany that I have seen, there is no category called "Karpathid" (nor is there for any other European country). I find it hard to believe that Karpathids are common in central Europe yet McCulloch has no category for them. Is it possible that you are labelling several Dinarics as Karpathids, or perhaps that McCulloch rejects this label and uses only Dinaric?

Also, I have been told by almost everyone (almost a dozen different informed opinions) that Dinaric is my predominant element. There is not even an option for Karpathid in the profile. What do you make of all of this?

Loki
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 08:31 PM
The Palestinians (Filistiny) are a tribe that migrated to the region from Thracia. As I've said before, Arab domination has forced all peoples to speak Arabic (such as Lebanon, Syria, Kurdistan, North Africa), and there is a difference between ancient Hamatic/Indo-Hittite (pre IE) Balkano-Anatolian language that spread into the region, and modern day evololved IE language. If you can see in this map, the IE speakers spread from Anatolia south to Iran, through Central Asia, then into Russia. Invading tribes somtimes don't take with them their tongue, in the case of the Hayksos (Hellenes) into Anatolia, they did bring with them language, the only lasting Phyrgo-Thracian language today (Armenian).

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/homeland.jpg

Razmig, this is but one theory on I-E origins. And, not a very commonly held one. Interesting, nevertheless. Kinda reminds me of Christian Identity maps, detailing the supposed migration patterns of the "Lost Ten Tribes". ;) Of course, these C.I. people got all their dates wrong, too - since I-E people have been in central and northern Europe thousands of years before the Assyrian capture of Israel around 700 B.C.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Physical anthropologists do not have the same terminology. Is your mother a South German?

Here is a quote from Jordens Folkstammar (1988) by Bertil Lundman, "N Ungern och Karpaterna har stark blanding med östbaltiska, (öst-)alpina och ställvis dinThora typer, samt ej minst en, ända in i södra Schlesien förekommande, småväxt och kortskallig samt mörk "karpatid" lokaltyp. I can give the following translation, N Hungary and the Carpathians have a strongly mixed with East Baltic, (east-)Alpine and sometimes dinaric types, and not the least, existing as far as southern Schlesien, small in growth and short headed and dark "karpatid" local type.

McCulloch follow Coon and he does not use that term. You can make a thread about it, like "am I Dinarid or Karpathid?". People tend to disagree but I guess that you are Dinarid if most people have classified you as such. As far as I can remember your father do not look Dinarid.




@ Volksdeutscher: In regard to the first point about boats, I was exluding that a priori when discussing ancient migrations.

Did you once classify me and my mother as a Karpathid? My mother is 100% German, and on sub-racial percentage breakdowns for Germany that I have seen, there is no category called "Karpathid" (nor is there for any other European country). I find it hard to believe that Karpathids are common in central Europe yet McCulloch has no category for them. Is it possible that you are labelling several Dinarics as Karpathids, or perhaps that McCulloch rejects this label and uses only Dinaric?

Also, I have been told by almost everyone (almost a dozen different informed opinions) that Dinaric is my predominant element. There is not even an option for Karpathid in the profile. What do you make of all of this?

norda
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 08:52 PM
Armenoids apparently are Dinarics who mixed with middle eastern elements.
The answer on such statement you can find in Armenia. http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
Genetically they share genes with 3 main European hgroups but the most important HG9 (probably responsible for "Armenoidal" influences) element is the strongest among Beduins. Another words "genes of Beduins" are responsible for "Armenian look" and later "dinaricization" of SE Europe.

Awar
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 08:59 PM
The answer on such statement you can find in Armenia. http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
Genetically they share genes with 3 main European hgroups but the most important HG9 (probably responsible for "Armenoidal" influences) element is the strongest among Beduins. Another words "genes of Beduins" are responsible for "Armenian look" and later "dinaricization" of SE Europe.

Actually, I doubt that. How would you explain the existence of Dinaric and Dinaric-like people everywhere from Basque country, France, Britain, Germany, Balkans, Ukraine and everywhere else...including Scandinavia.

norda
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Actually, I doubt that. How would you explain the existence of Dinaric and Dinaric-like people everywhere from Basque country, France, Britain, Germany, Balkans, Ukraine and everywhere else...including Scandinavia.
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/lundraces-map18.jpg
Map 18. Early migrations of the races of europe (Lundman, 1957) (Natufids = Prae-South-Mediterranids)

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Dinarids in Scandinavia? They must be a very very small minority. Do you have any examples?



Actually, I doubt that. How would you explain the existence of Dinaric and Dinaric-like people everywhere from Basque country, France, Britain, Germany, Balkans, Ukraine and everywhere else...including Scandinavia.

berschneider
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Another words "genes of Beduins" are responsible for "Armenian look" and later "dinaricization" of SE Europe.
Amazing. Do you mean Armenians then colonized the rest of the continent how did that "dinaricization" (whatever that is) occur?

By the way, that genetic map is fascinating, that Connacht place in Ireland is quite incredible if you really think about it.

Marius
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Es geht gut, danke.

I read that the people in Dobrudscha are not Romanians. Is that true?

1. So I am more Alpinid or more Karpathid?

2. Well... The history is like that. I will start from a rather newer ancient times. The teritory of the actual Transylvania (Siebenbürgen), the West of Wallachia and the North of Moldavia, parts of NW Hungary and Eastern Slovakia were populated by Daces (they are a special branch of Thraces). They were conquered by Romans in 106. The Romans retreated on 265. Before and after the change between these Daces and the Romans were so powerful, as we may say that including the Roman domination time, a new people was formed, daco-romans, the ancestors of Romans. Well, the Romans retreat because of the very often invasions. Because of the same reason, Daco-romans, remained without protection forces and authorities in front of invasions, often went up to the mountains, where they lived till their number increased so much, as they where forced to get down. This took some centuries. But the fortifications they built, getting down, could not protect them so they were conquered by Hungarians. Which dominated the region till 1918.

During all this time, other invasions, as cumans and slavs arrived in the current region of Wallachia and Moldavia. So new mixtures arrived this way, before the forming of the Middle Age Principates.

For Dobrogea (Dobrudja) the things were always different: when the other regions were populated by Daces, Dobrudja had pure Thraces on its terittory. Soon enough, the Greeks created some ports to the Black See. Then the Romans got the region well before the regions populated by Daces. Then it has been maintained as part of Byzance. Soon after the fall of Byzance it become an integrated part of the Otoman (Turkish) Empire. It remained so till 1877, when it has been attached to Romania (which did not include Transylvania at that moment yet). Well, Romanians procedeed to some population shift to Dobrogea, taking Romanian families from the mountains departments of Wallachia and giving them lands in Dobrogea.
During the World War II, Romania procedeed to important Turkish minority deportation from the Northern Dobrogea to the current NE Bulgaria (at that time called Quadrilater and part of Romania). This has been done as a direct consequence of the Vienna dictate. But of course, they couyld have moved all the possible mixed families. Anyway the miwed families completely adopt today the Romanian way of life, though there are currently around 30.000 muslims in Dobrogea, of Tartar or Turkish descent (Romanian population is around 23 millions). And of course, due the mobility of current times, now Dobrogea is mostly inhabited by Romanians, Turks remain a colored and exotic minority.

Agrippa
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:16 PM
My personal impression is that Karpathids are just a typical Carpathian Eastalpine-Dinarid mix.

Awar
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:40 PM
@Norda

That map shows the Neolithic influence in Europe. The Neolithic spread of farming also saw some gene-flow come from the middle-east, but, as you see, it's not an Arabid influence, since all the regions suffered lots of invasions, and thus, the 'purest' neolithic population remained in the region that suffered the least invasions ( least other genetic influx ).

The Neolithic gene-flow was present in all the areas where the map points, the much later Arabian conquests were of a much lesser spread and much lesser genetic impact ( due to the fact that Neolithic Europe was much less inahbited than in Medieval times ).

@Volksdeutscher

I said Dinaric-like.

Look at the example of Aran islanders. If you came to visit the Balkans, you'd see lots of such men and women, especially in and around Albania, even with red hair etc.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Yes, Albanians can be blond too but their features are more often than not very Dinarid. I thought that you claimed that Scandinavia got Dinarid or Dinarid-like people. You said "including Scandinavia".

Coon wrote in the chapter of Ireland "In The Races Of Europe":

"The planoccipital, brachycephalic, aquiline-nosed Dinaric element, if it were ever brunet, must also have lost its original pigment association; today it is frequently red haired."

I can understand what you mean as Coon's Keltic Nordic got Dinarid as for a component. I have seen many Balkan people. I know that some have a pigmentation and even facial features that resemble some people on the British Isles. Nevertheless, the skulls are much higher and the vault is not the same. So in modern times the populations may share an ancient racial element but the whole composition of the respective folks are different. It is single traits that they share, e.g. nasal prominency. I guess that it is more difficult to separate individuals than it is with a comparison between the populations.





@Volksdeutscher

I said Dinaric-like.

Look at the example of Aran islanders. If you came to visit the Balkans, you'd see lots of such men and women, especially in and around Albania, even with red hair etc.

norda
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 09:59 PM
That map shows the Neolithic influence in Europe. The Neolithic spread of farming also saw some gene-flow come from the middle-east, but, as you see, it's not an Arabid influence, since all the regions suffered lots of invasions, and thus, the 'purest' neolithic population remained in the region that suffered the least invasions ( least other genetic influx ).

The Neolithic gene-flow was present in all the areas where the map points, the much later Arabian conquests were of a much lesser spread and much lesser genetic impact ( due to the fact that Neolithic Europe was much less inahbited than in Medieval times ).
I do hope that nobody was offended. Of course we could not call earliest migrations “Arabic” moreover genetic and racial drift have changed whole picture greatly.We should also take maternal genes into account. But still genetic proves connections between Middle East and Europe.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Marius, I would never mistake you for a middle easterner.I don't think he looks middle eastern either.

Awar
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Yes, Albanians can be blond too but their features are more often than not very Dinarid. I thought that you claimed that Scandinavia got Dinarid or Dinarid-like people. You said "including Scandinavia".

Coon wrote in the chapter of Ireland "In The Races Of Europe":

"The planoccipital, brachycephalic, aquiline-nosed Dinaric element, if it were ever brunet, must also have lost its original pigment association; today it is frequently red haired."

I can understand what you mean as Coon's Keltic Nordic got Dinarid as for a component. I have seen many Balkan people. I know that some have a pigmentation and even facial features that resemble some people on the British Isles. Nevertheless, the skulls are much higher and the vault is not the same. So in modern times the populations may share an ancient racial element but the whole composition of the respective folks are different. It is single traits that they share, e.g. nasal prominency. I guess that it is more difficult to separate individuals than it is with a comparison between the populations.

Yep, I think it's common for Europeans east of France to have much higher vaults than those west... I think the low vault's got everything to do with a western Cro-Magnoid component from N.Africa.

The tallest vaulted Europeans in the east are Borreby and Borreby-like UP survivors, so I gather that this is the primary component for tall-vaultedness.

BTW. When I said Keltic-Nordic, I MEANT Keltic-Nordic... you should visit some time, it's really weird. I have a friend who's of the type I was speaking about... low-vaulted, long, straight nose, light-blonde hair, extremely light eyes etc. etc. Most frequently, this type is present in villages.

Awar
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:18 PM
I do hope that nobody was offended. Of course we could not call earliest migrations “Arabic” moreover genetic and racial drift have changed whole picture greatly.We should also take maternal genes into account. But still genetic proves connections between Middle East and Europe.

I hope I didn't seem offended... Without the Neolithics, we'd still be eating Mammoth burgers with sabretooth sauce :D

berschneider
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 10:34 PM
The answer on such statement you can find in Armenia. http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
Genetically they share genes with 3 main European hgroups but the most important HG9 (probably responsible for "Armenoidal" influences) element is the strongest among Beduins. Another words "genes of Beduins" are responsible for "Armenian look" and later "dinaricization" of SE Europe.

and... by looking at "your" map I see that Armenians have hg16 (yellow) which is also by looking at the map is associated with Finland and which no other neighbour of Armenia(ns) has.

Can you explain its presence?

Perhaps it should be a subject for a different topic though.

Allenson
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 11:43 PM
Really? Have you ever been in those place of which you're speaking with so much disgust? Have you ever know people from Central and Eastern Europe?

Well, I attach some photos to this message (me and a firnd of mine) and you tell me if I look so "Armenid and Orientalid".



No, you look Alpinid to me.

norda
Wednesday, April 7th, 2004, 11:55 PM
and... by looking at "your" map I see that Armenians have hg16 (yellow) which is also by looking at the map is associated with Finland and which no other neighbour of Armenia(ns) has.

Can you explain its presence?

Perhaps it should be a subject for a different topic though.
Actually small presence of Hg 16 among Armenians is nothing surprising as neighbouring Russians and Ukrainians share it also but in larger percentage.
btw There is a special part of Skadi: Genetics & Human Microbiology. You are welcome.
http://www.forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=88

berschneider
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Actually small presence of Hg 16 among Armenians is nothing surprising as neighbouring Russians and Ukrainians share it also but in larger percentage.
btw There is a special part of Skadi: Genetics & Human Microbiology. You are welcome.
http://www.forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=88
but if you look at your map (or any map) by Caucasus separates Armenia from Ukraine and Russia - Georgians and different groups of Northern Caucasus are in between, and neither of them has Hg 16 in tangible "volume," in fact Armenia does not have share a common border either with Ukraine or Russia, has no direct geographic contact and as far as I know has been incorporated within Russian empire relately late.

Von Braun
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 01:29 AM
Physical anthropologists do not have the same terminology. Is your mother a South German?

...

McCulloch follow Coon and he does not use that term. You can make a thread about it, like "am I Dinarid or Karpathid?". People tend to disagree but I guess that you are Dinarid if most people have classified you as such. As far as I can remember your father do not look Dinarid.

Actually I am trying to figure out what parts of Germany are in my mother's ancestry at the moment, in the Germanic Ting. I have been told me, she, and her family look Bavarian or Austrian, but there is conflicting information, as I have heard Protestant Germans were in the north and Catholic Germans were in the south; my mother's family is all Lutheran. My guess is I probably have some ancestry from all over Germany on my mother's half. This would explain the secondary Nordish traits that others have pointed to, like the blonde hair as a baby and my eyes.

As for my father, he is an Atlantid-UP mix, probably from France and Britain respectively (and even he probably has some Dinaric buried in his genome but not expressed becuase he is partially French as well as Swiss). Anyway, everyone who knows my family, and also people who have only seen pictures (like Stribog) say that I overwhelmingly take after my mother's side of the family, agreeing with "the Dinaric with minor Nordish [lg calls it brunet Noric]" assessment that my mother and I have received. As for what I have reveived from my father: apparently I "missed" his Atlantid part and got the minor UP observed in me from him (I am high skulled and have a CI of ~ 82).

My listing of myself as a predominant Dinarid in my profile seems very appropriate, correct?

Von Braun
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 01:39 AM
Actually, I doubt that. How would you explain the existence of Dinaric and Dinaric-like people everywhere from Basque country, France, Britain, Germany, Balkans, Ukraine and everywhere else...including Scandinavia.

This is precisely my reasoning. An analagous situation would be if my brother had married a northeast Asian woman (though he did not, his wife is completely western European like we are) and me having neices and nephews that look kind of like me, yet still significantly different. It would be illogical to assume that me and my hypothetical neices and nephews came from some sort of recent source and somehow they and their people evolved one way and me and mine evolved another. Obviously, this is the same as the dynamic in the larger issue, whereby the most eastern Dinarics mixed with Asiatic and Semitic elements. Occam's Razor, the powerful principle of parsimony, would point to simple mixing, as Armenoids share traits with Europeans and with contemporary middle easterners and live in between these two groups.

Von Braun
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 01:47 AM
If I undersatnd correctly, Neolithics are ancesteral to today's gracile Mediterraneans (i.e., not associated with any recent non-European invader genes). The Neolithic farming revolution was approximately 10,000 years ago, correct? Would this mean the common ancestor of Neolithics/modern gracile European Mediterraneans and today's Arabs lived a long time ago ( > 10,000 years)? This would make sense, because as volksdeutscher noted, the relation between the two groups is distant.

Glenlivet
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 01:53 AM
I wish you the best of luck in finding out more about your geneaology. All people are much blonder as children.

I have heard that Austria got a very dark Dinarid type. I have not seen it for myself except for a textbook example from Birket-Smith, a man from the Tyrol. I guess that you could pass for an Austrian. There is no single type in that region though. But Njörd would know more about that.

A CI of around 82 is longer headed than what one would expect from solely Dinarid. To determine the Height-Length Index is impossible as most anthropologists agree that the method taken from the ear is not so accurate. It is taken on cranias from the nape. One can only assume that you are high skulled.

I remember a long and narrow face, flattened occiput, pale skin, dark brown hair (?), green eyes, a prominent and slightly convex nose (downturned tip?), and a stature below average? From what I can remember you could, from your phenotype alone, fit in most of Central Europe and the British Isles, mainly in the western parts. One can perhaps find your look more than anything else in France. I cannot remember all of your facial features. Maybe the man you mostly resemble in your family is your maternal grandfather. Is he taller than you? You could ask Agrippa. He should know more about the regions where your ancestors emigrated from.

As for this Nordish thing. I suppose that you could fit in what they call the Peripheral Nordish category.



Actually I am trying to figure out what parts of Germany are in my mother's ancestry at the moment, in the Germanic Ting. I have been told me, she, and her family look Bavarian or Austrian, but there is conflicting information, as I have heard Protestant Germans were in the north and Catholic Germans were in the south; my mother's family is all Lutheran. My guess is I probably have some ancestry from all over Germany on my mother's half. This would explain the secondary Nordish traits that others have pointed to, like the blonde hair as a baby and my eyes.

As for my father, he is an Atlantid-UP mix, probably from France and Britain respectively (and even he probably has some Dinaric buried in his genome but not expressed becuase he is partially French as well as Swiss). Anyway, everyone who knows my family, and also people who have only seen pictures (like Stribog) say that I overwhelmingly take after my mother's side of the family, agreeing with "the Dinaric with minor Nordish [lg calls it brunet Noric]" assessment that my mother and I have received. As for what I have reveived from my father: apparently I "missed" his Atlantid part and got the minor UP observed in me from him (I am high skulled and have a CI of ~ 82).

My listing of myself as a predominant Dinarid in my profile seems very appropriate, correct?

Awar
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 02:05 AM
A CI of around 82 is longer headed than what one would expect from solely Dinarid. .

Interesting... then I know no Dinarics :) ( I measured the heads of most my friends and relatives :D)

My CI is 78... btw.

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 02:14 AM
If I undersatnd correctly, Neolithics are ancesteral to today's gracile Mediterraneans (i.e., not associated with any recent non-European invader genes). The Neolithic farming revolution was approximately 10,000 years ago, correct? Would this mean the common ancestor of Neolithics/modern gracile European Mediterraneans and today's Arabs lived a long time ago ( > 10,000 years)? This would make sense, because as volksdeutscher noted, the relation between the two groups is distant.

Gracil Meds of today have at least two definite sources, an eastern which came with the Natufians/Cardials and Danubian migrations and a western branch that emerged in West Europe from the Laugerie-Chancelade types, more protomorphic and coarse-boned in physiognomy.
You cant keep them apart in view of the vault height and LHI as some Scandinavian physical anthropologist would like to arrange Europe's racial composition on some idea of a bi-polarity of stocks.
Both are high-vaulted, the demarcation line is simply a matter of how far a certain race has gone through a gracilization process.
Danubian paedomorphic Meds from the Linearband, Stichband and Roessen culture are compatible with no other existing European branch.
In time, however, the differences between the small-set mediterranoids of either clade have sufficiently converged to group them together.

Razmig
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 09:18 AM
Coon claimed that Dinarics were the result of a particular blending of Alpines with certain Meds sub types. The Noric being a further blend with Nordids.

I do feel that Dinarics became Armenids and Orientalids the further east one moves from SE Europe to Turkey and the Middle East. The skull shapes and nose shapes are similar.
How can this be if Orientalid (mediterannean) is a seperate sub-race of the Europid race. Remember, it originally follows:
Nordid
Armenid
Ibbero-Insular
Lappannoid

Razmig
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 09:22 AM
Really? Have you ever been in those place of which you're speaking with so much disgust? Have you ever know people from Central and Eastern Europe?

Well, I attach some photos to this message (me and a firnd of mine) and you tell me if I look so "Armenid and Orientalid".

Your idea of the Armenoid is twisted and wrong. Grouping the Armenoid/Dinaric (hooked nosed) with an Orientalid (straight nosed mediterannean) proves to me that theres nothing to worry about. You simply do not know anthropology. :D You look like an Armenoid from Armenia, I as an Armenian do not like Caucasian Armenians, but then again they share the same name.

Razmig
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Razmig, this is but one theory on I-E origins. And, not a very commonly held one. Interesting, nevertheless. Kinda reminds me of Christian Identity maps, detailing the supposed migration patterns of the "Lost Ten Tribes". ;) Of course, these C.I. people got all their dates wrong, too - since I-E people have been in central and northern Europe thousands of years before the Assyrian capture of Israel around 700 B.C.
It's the one theory that is the stem of all other theories. The "north east european origins" of IE are so that the bulk of the IE's remained there for some time, there is no doubting the origins of the IE's and their migration patterns.

Razmig
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 09:25 AM
The answer on such statement you can find in Armenia. http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873
Genetically they share genes with 3 main European hgroups but the most important HG9 (probably responsible for "Armenoidal" influences) element is the strongest among Beduins. Another words "genes of Beduins" are responsible for "Armenian look" and later "dinaricization" of SE Europe.
Bedouins are simply meds, sub-saharans, and share such a relation with Greeks...If you cared to study the map, at the bottum right it even tells you that it has absolutely nothing to do with racial relation...but rather weather/climate/elevation (as i have so many times stated, along with the differences in human bone sizes). Of coarse, a gradual effect would take place as it has in all aspects of life.

Razmig
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 09:59 AM
I don't think he looks middle eastern either.
I think he looks Earthian.

Marius
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 10:32 AM
Your idea of the Armenoid is twisted and wrong. Grouping the Armenoid/Dinaric (hooked nosed) with an Orientalid (straight nosed mediterannean) proves to me that theres nothing to worry about. You simply do not know anthropology. :D You look like an Armenoid from Armenia, I as an Armenian do not like Caucasian Armenians, but then again they share the same name.


I don't know who is in the comparing photo and I do not claim I would be such a great expert in anthropology. If you are, then I can only congratulate you.
My unformed opinion is that there are only a few common characteristics between my photo and the one you compare it to. The head form is not the same, my head is more rectangular, especially in the superior part, even in in its inferior part may look similar. The form of the front is also deeply different, I think. Of course, it remains the color of the skin, also, which is much lighter in my case. A general conclusion would be that I am also more brahycephalic than the person in the photo.
So, I think we are quite different, even if some resemblance may be also found, but this can be done with almost everybody in Europe, if you like.
Even if there some people like the person in the photo in Romania, I think he would look foreigner for sure.

And second, I was not at all reffering to what you previously said, by saying those things concerning Central and Eastern Europe.

Von Braun
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 10:45 AM
I wish you the best of luck in finding out more about your geneaology. All people are much blonder as children.

I have heard that Austria got a very dark Dinarid type. I have not seen it for myself except for a textbook example from Birket-Smith, a man from the Tyrol. I guess that you could pass for an Austrian. There is no single type in that region though. But Njörd would know more about that.

A CI of around 82 is longer headed than what one would expect from solely Dinarid. To determine the Height-Length Index is impossible as most anthropologists agree that the method taken from the ear is not so accurate. It is taken on cranias from the nape. One can only assume that you are high skulled.

I remember a long and narrow face, flattened occiput, pale skin, dark brown hair (?), green eyes, a prominent and slightly convex nose (downturned tip?), and a stature below average? From what I can remember you could, from your phenotype alone, fit in most of Central Europe and the British Isles, mainly in the western parts. One can perhaps find your look more than anything else in France. I cannot remember all of your facial features. Maybe the man you mostly resemble in your family is your maternal grandfather. Is he taller than you? You could ask Agrippa. He should know more about the regions where your ancestors emigrated from.

As for this Nordish thing. I suppose that you could fit in what they call the Peripheral Nordish category.

I heard that *many* if not *most* white toddlers have blonde hair. So I guess only whites count as people, since you did say "all people..."
:D

You are correct about my hair and eyes. As for the occiput is not flat but merely less prominent than it could be. As for my nose, I guess prominent is relative, but I have seen much more prominent noses, and the nose consists of line segments forming almost 180 degree angles (so yes, slightly convex)---lg refers to this as a "wavy" nose (as opposed to one line segment or a simple arc). As for my height, I am only an inch or two below the American mean for men. Yes, my mother's father is taller than me by about 4 inches. I think there is Alpine ancestry on my mother's mother's side, as some of my male cousins, who are 100% German, are my height or even an inch or two shorter than me (and ironically I also have one female amazon cousin who is 6' tall on that side of the family too, and some of my male cousins and my two brothers are taller than me).

Glenlivet
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 11:34 AM
I should have said most, but keep in mind that I had a Northern European (from Iceland-Ireland to Northwestern Russia) perspective in my mind. Blondism is not as common in other regions and as you probably know hair blondism is mostly common in SW Finland and W Estonia whereas often times the most florid complexions come with relatively dark hair as is common in Ireland, among a people with more golden shades.

Well yea, one can assume that a person is speaking about "whites" on a board for "European Cultural, Racial and Spiritual Preservation" :). Most of us had blond hair as toddlers. It can sometimes change, especially during the first years of life, from red to more yellow shades and vice versa, but it usually darken to medium brown as for adults. As I have understood even in Spain the most common hair colour is dark brown and not black. The hair texture and the series of hair shades are better distinguishing racial markers.

It is mainly Nordids (and even more so among East Baltids) who retain the childhood blondism. There are Assyroids with light hair. I have seen them with my very own eyes. Some of them have hair which is lighter than many Brits. However, the texture and shade of the hair is different, not to speak about the different facial features. East Baltids should have most of the blondism, and secondly Nordid populations. R Nordenstreng claimed that it is in Inner Scandinavia (mainly Dalsland, Närke, Jämtland, Härjedalen etc.) that one can find the most pure Nordid population as the coasts of Norway and Sweden were "stripped" off of that with the Viking journeys throught Europe. Dalsland is also a region with a very high ratio of ash blondism and blue eyes, the predominant type being Götatyp. There is another region with a high frequency of blondism, and that is Anglo-Saxon lands in the Dutch North Sea coast to Schleswig-Holstein and Jylland (also Jutland/Jütland). Northern Poland, Belarussia and Western Russia have also a lot of hair blondism, but according to the sources that I have read a lower ratio of light eyes when compared to Northwestern European populations.

I have not seen many North Atlantid children with white-blonde hair as is found among many Swedish children. The main difference between them and Scando-Nordids (and perhaps Phalian too) is also the hair colour.

Wavy is probably the same as a concavo-convex nose. That can be Nordid too, but mostly with a "button" or a small bulb at the tip. It is important to see whether the person in question got other features that fit in too. It is useless to take out single traits and then ascribe them to this or that sub race or type. Traits can of course be shared while the overall phenotype is different, so it is the convergent set of features in combination with the pigmentation that make up the type. Stature is highly variable, and head size can change from generation to generation due to nutrition.

6' female makes me think of very tall and long-ledded Dutch women. That is really tall for a woman. The source of that is usually Nordid or Dinarid. Mountain people tend to be taller, but not always. Most of the Balkans, especially Montenegro got a population with many tall people, as does the Netherlands (more so in the northern provinces) and Scotland.



I heard that *many* if not *most* white toddlers have blonde hair. So I guess only whites count as people, since you did say "all people..."
:D

As for the occiput is not flat but merely less prominent than it could be. As for my nose, I guess prominent is relative, but I have seen much more prominent, and the nose is two line segments forming almost a 180 degree angle at the nose bone (so yes, slightly convex)---lg refers to this as a "wavy" nose (as opposed to one line segment or a simple arc). As for my height, I am only an inch or two below the American mean for men. Yes, my mother's father is taller than me by about 4 inches. I think there is Alpine ancestry on my mother's mother's side, as some of my male cousins, who are 100% German, are my height or even an inch or two shorter than me (and ironically I also have one female amazon cousin who is 6' tall on that side too, and some of my male cousins and my two brothers are taller than me).

Razmig
Friday, April 9th, 2004, 10:40 AM
I don't know who is in the comparing photo and I do not claim I would be such a great expert in anthropology. If you are, then I can only congratulate you.
My unformed opinion is that there are only a few common characteristics between my photo and the one you compare it to. The head form is not the same, my head is more rectangular, especially in the superior part, even in in its inferior part may look similar. The form of the front is also deeply different, I think. Of course, it remains the color of the skin, also, which is much lighter in my case. A general conclusion would be that I am also more brahycephalic than the person in the photo.
So, I think we are quite different, even if some resemblance may be also found, but this can be done with almost everybody in Europe, if you like.
Even if there some people like the person in the photo in Romania, I think he would look foreigner for sure.

And second, I was not at all reffering to what you previously said, by saying those things concerning Central and Eastern Europe.
Of coarse you will look different, you are not his brother. His face is longer than yours however, and chin is not as weak as yours. Your ear shape, and eyes are almost exactly congruent, as well as the distance between the root of your nose and the hair formation at the tip of your scalp. You however have darker eyes than the individual, and a weaker/gappy beard. The picture I have posted was a very dark picture which I had to lighten, but nevermind his skin tone. Am I to assume you would find a Greek a foreigner to you??? I think the fact that you have more fat in the face makes you seem more brachy, but have you even measured your cap size?

You can be from anywhere. Spain, Portugal, Romania, Bulgaria, Armenia, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Syria. Your confusing straight nosed, round occupited Orientalid (a branch of the Eastern Mediterannean race which inhabits Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Sicily, Greece, Bulgaria, N.Africa, Spain, N.Iraq, Palestine etc with convex nosed, flat occupited Armenoids and Dinarics...the fact that you look Armenoid/Dinaric+Alpine makes you very much a Karpathid (would be found in Romania), and you look like types from the Caucus as well (such as Georgia).

Razmig
Friday, April 9th, 2004, 10:49 AM
6' female makes me think of very tall and long-ledded Dutch women. That is really tall for a woman. The source of that is usually Nordid or Dinarid. Mountain people tend to be taller, but not always. Most of the Balkans, especially Montenegro got a population with many tall people, as does the Netherlands (more so in the northern provinces) and Scotland.
One of the tallest men in the world was from Turkish Armenia (a genetic mutation that is pretty common in Yugoslavia, Armenian Turkey, parts of Korea, S. Africa, and the Netherlands).

I'm afraid all we have now are basketball players like Sultana Kosein (7'11) http://www.acb.com/acb2/fotos/6447_3_10568_3.jpg , and Armen Ogannessian (7'2). My grandfather was a Galacyan from the Turkish city of Polatli (also where I am from) and he was 7'5...I however am a foot shorter =( do to my mothers medium stature (5'9) stature. There are also very Tall Thessalians, as well as southern Arabs (one example would be Usahm Ibn Ladin (6'4 to 6'6). Maybe hes got Sub-Saharan in him?