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Prodigal Son
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 01:46 AM
One of the most perseverent myths lefts behind as a legacy of Dr. Carlton Coon's The Races of Europe is the alleged existence of a "Ladogan race" whose somewhat phenotypically Asiatic features are asusmed to be the direct result of Mongoloid admixture. Richard McCullough estimates that these "Ladogans" compose approximately 35% of the population of Russia, not to mention the "Neo-Danubians" and "East-Baltics" who supposedly are the result of Ladogan miscegenation with a lighter element. According to McCullough, 80% of Russians are either Ladogan, East Baltic or Neo-Danubian; this assumes that these Russians have sufficient Mongoloid admixture to alter their phenotype. Modern genetics disagrees:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

Superhaplogroup M represents Asian or East African admixture. Haplogroup L is sub-Saharan. Haplogroups A through D represent Asian or Amerindian admixture.

M and L A, B, C D Total
Bulgaria/Turkey 2.92% 6.86% 9.78%
European Russia 1.40% 3.72% 5.12%
Spain/Portugal 1.99% 2.27% 4.26%
France/Italy 2.42% 0.80% 3.22%
Germany 1.14% 0.57% 1.71%
Finland/Estonia 0.99% 0.50% 1.49%
Scandinavia 0.47% 0.32% 0.79%
England/Wales 0.47% 0.23% 0.70%
Scotland 0.11% 0.11% 0.22%
Iceland 0% 0.43% 0.43%
Ireland 0% 0% 0%

The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

--Joseph.

Ominous Lord Spoonblade
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 02:19 AM
I find it hard to believe that most Russians would have some mongoloid admixture. I don't think that none do...but I have always found that a bit hard to swallow. From a skeptical point of view...

Prodigal Son
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Vanessa
I find it hard to believe that most Russians would have some mongoloid admixture. I don't think that none do...but I have always found that a bit hard to swallow. From a skeptical point of view...

Mongoloid admixture among Russians is exremely rare in European Rssia. It is concentrated in Siberia and the Volga Region.

Evolved
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Did they really have enough time to evolve their own superficial Asiatic characteristics? :)

Why would Britain have dark people when across the sea from them, in the same climate, the people remained light? Doesn't make sense..


Originally posted by Prodigal Son
The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

Nordhammer
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Prodigal Son
One of the most perseverent myths lefts behind as a legacy of Dr. Carlton Coon's The Races of Europe is the alleged existence of a "Ladogan race" whose somewhat phenotypically Asiatic features are asusmed to be the direct result of Mongoloid admixture. Richard McCullough estimates that these "Ladogans" compose approximately 35% of the population of Russia, not to mention the "Neo-Danubians" and "East-Baltics" who supposedly are the result of Ladogan miscegenation with a lighter element. According to McCullough, 80% of Russians are either Ladogan, East Baltic or Neo-Danubian; this assumes that these Russians have sufficient Mongoloid admixture to alter their phenotype. Modern genetics disagrees:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/admixture.html

Superhaplogroup M represents Asian or East African admixture. Haplogroup L is sub-Saharan. Haplogroups A through D represent Asian or Amerindian admixture.

M and L A, B, C D Total
Bulgaria/Turkey 2.92% 6.86% 9.78%
European Russia 1.40% 3.72% 5.12%
Spain/Portugal 1.99% 2.27% 4.26%
France/Italy 2.42% 0.80% 3.22%
Germany 1.14% 0.57% 1.71%
Finland/Estonia 0.99% 0.50% 1.49%
Scandinavia 0.47% 0.32% 0.79%
England/Wales 0.47% 0.23% 0.70%
Scotland 0.11% 0.11% 0.22%
Iceland 0% 0.43% 0.43%
Ireland 0% 0% 0%

The superficially "Asiatic" features of most "Neo-Danubians", "Ladogans" and "East baltics" are due to convergent evolution, the same way that the superfically "Mediterranean characteristics of dark Brits are due to convergent evolution rather than Middle Eatsenr admixture.

--Joseph.

Maybe you didn't understand what you read? Coon didn't say Ladogans are a result of real Mongoloid admixture, but "incipient", that is, evolved. He further states that all UPs have some degree of similarity to Mongoloids, although mostly by the largeheadedness and strong bone structure and nothing else. However Ladogans were thought to be more progressively evolved in that direction. Coon also speculated that Lapps were even further evolved in that direction than Ladogans, and were not from direct Mongoloid admixture. However, genetic studies proves that Lapps are halfway between whites and true Mongoloids.

McCulloch has also said that he even disagrees with Coon and there is nothing Mongoloid at all about Ladogans... so there you go.

And finally, Coon believed that all Mongoloids were proto-whites, which has somewhat of a corroboration by Rushton's work, being that Mongoloids broke away from whites about 40,000 years ago.

Ross
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Coon is not God of Anthropology, his work is one of many, and not the best... I don't insist it's because he was a poor scholar, just hadn't enough relevant data, esp. on Eastern Europeans (nobody had in those times... however, even than his sources were outdated, probably due to linguistic barrier).

There is perceptible Mongolid admixture in Eastern, Central and Northern Europe, and that's what we're talking about.

The main mistake of Mr. Coon is that he wrongfully believed that the main racial type of North-Eastern Europeans, labeled Neo-Danubian, is the result of intermixture between Nordics and Ladogans, while he clearly attributes, unlike Nordhammer says...a Crô-Magnon-like broad-faced, low-orbitted mesocephal, filling most closely the requirements of an ideal modern Finnish type; and a small-statured brachycephal with a long face and high orbits, which in some instances is at least partly mongoloid. As will be seen later, the sub-brachycephalic element in the Danubian population was probably related to these non-Mediterranean forest types. ...Ladogan "Race" to mixed Europid-Mongolid types, and indeed it's proven that the type found in Ladoga is Metis, and partially Mongoloid in origin.

The point is that Balts weren't of the Ladogan/Metis racial type, but of the regular UP type. In anthropological cluster they're even more Europid (theoretically) than other Europids, with massive heads and protruding noses. After Slavs, who were of the generalized BA type, have moved in they've mixed with the Balts. Somewhere Nordic strain is stronger, and somewhere Baltic (Moscow Slavs were indeed fully Nordic, unlike their western neighbours). Fully Europid territory of Russia is no significantly bigger now than it was 1000 years back...

But it's all pointless to argue with long dead Coon...

What's "incipient Mongoloidism"? Ladogan skulls are clearly partially Mongolid - flattish faces, small noses with small angles (25'')... Russians show quite the **opposite** characteristics... our nasal angles are greater, and faces are well profiled... yes, there's statistical flatness, statistical nasal dperession within Russia proper, but only on the periphery - to the East from Moscow, in the Volga-?Kama region, on southern shore of the Great Lakes...

Another interesting thing, that there are semi-Mongolid pockets in the eastern part of the Baltic States, and Prussian Germans have assimilated a lot of semi-Mongolid Prussians...

And yet another interesting thing is that the racial types of Northern Eastern Slavs, Neo-Danubian, if you like, is dominant in Northen Germany, esp. in NE Germany... forget about Borreby and Phalian types - they don't fit metrically (see Sheidt). The second German from the SNPA gallery is clearly of the Baltic/Neo-Danubian type... and the type is common in southern Scandinavia, and has close approximations even in Frisia... It seems this racial type is the most numerous blondish/Nordish type...


Heck, thousand books are written, racial boundaries are established with amazing precision, yet an outdated book rules in the Net

Ross
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 03:34 PM
Perhapds Nordhammer haven't read the entire TRoE?

(4) Ladogan: I propose to give this name to the descendants of the mesocephalic and brachycephalic forest-dwelling population of northern Europe east of the Baltic in Kammkeramik times. This type is a blend of a partly mongoloid brachycephalic element with a mesocephalic form of general Upper Palaeolithic aspect; these elements are seen in crania from Lake Ladoga and Salis Roje. (See Chapter IV, section 13, pp. 125-126.) Corded and/or Danubian elements are inextricably blended here, although the mongoloid and Upper Palaeolithic elements seem at present more important. In its present form this composite type shows two numerous variants:

You see, no "incipent mongoloidism" talk...

Ross
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 03:39 PM
And, Joseph, please stop talking about epicanthus - it's frequence 0,1%, and only in Volga-Kama and Great Lakes regions.

Prodigal Son
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by ladygoeth33
Did they really have enough time to evolve their own superficial Asiatic characteristics? :)

Yes. Once upon a time Alpines were considered partially Mongoloid because of their brachycephaly. THat theory has sinc ebeen discredited as well.


Why would Britain have dark people when across the sea from them, in the same climate, the people remained light? Doesn't make sense..

Read what genetics has to say about dark Brits here. (http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/1.html) If you have problems with modern day genetics, I suggest you take it up with someone else.

--Joseph.

Ross
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Joe,

Dark Brits are not UPs, they're Meds...

cosmocreator
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Ross
and indeed it's proven that the type found in Ladoga is Metis, and partially Mongoloid in origin.

The point is that Balts weren't of the Ladogan/Metis racial type, but of the regular UP type.

There are people here in Canada that are called Metis. They are an Amerindian/European mix. The European generally being French or Irish.

Prodigal Son
Friday, February 7th, 2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Ross
Joe,

Dark Brits are not UPs, they're Meds...

Wrong, Ross.....


http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/1.html

Prodigal Son
Saturday, February 8th, 2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by Ross
And, Joseph, please stop talking about epicanthus - it's frequence 0,1%, and only in Volga-Kama and Great Lakes regions.

Interestingly enough, the frequncy of epicanthic eyefolds is higher in Belarus, which has a significantly lower rate of Mongolid admixture than even European Russia.

Klegutati
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Maybe you didn't understand what you read? Coon didn't say Ladogans are a result of real Mongoloid admixture, but "incipient", that is, evolved. He further states that all UPs have some degree of similarity to Mongoloids, although mostly by the largeheadedness and strong bone structure and nothing else. However Ladogans were thought to be more progressively evolved in that direction. Coon also speculated that Lapps were even further evolved in that direction than Ladogans, and were not from direct Mongoloid admixture. However, genetic studies proves that Lapps are halfway between whites and true Mongoloids.

McCulloch has also said that he even disagrees with Coon and there is nothing Mongoloid at all about Ladogans... so there you go.

And finally, Coon believed that all Mongoloids were proto-whites, which has somewhat of a corroboration by Rushton's work, being that Mongoloids broke away from whites about 40,000 years ago.

I believe that even Mongoloids have those features because of Siberian mammoth hunters, who evolved that way.. Even when you think about it Y-chromosome haplogroup N(Ural) is brother to O (East asian)... Living in Siberia for so long did cause both Mongoloid and Lappoid evolved their phenotypes from climate.. If you obviously think of the "Out of Africa" theory..:D :thumbup

Weg
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Could someone post a pic of this so called "Ladogan type" if it ever exists?

vingul
Tuesday, July 18th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Could someone post a pic of this so called "Ladogan type" if it ever exists?

Mostly Lappoid ("Ladogan") from Coon, showing Europid admixture:

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/gloss-lappoid.jpg

The Lappoid or "Ladogan" type exists, and it is typified by Finno-Ugric tribes such as the Khanty. It is the result of intermediate development (mostly through cold adaptations, e.g. borealization) showing para-Mongoloid as well as para-Cro-Magnoid features, and has internalized both fully developed Mongolid as well as Europid more recently. In Europe it is mostly found in solution with Europids.

The "myth" is simply the refusal of certain NEE's to acknowledge the presence in their populations of a strain which cannot be considered strictly Europid (it is not strictly Mongolid either).

Here is a Lapp woman; the Lapps in their most unmixed form are a reduced strain of mostly Lappoid extraction:

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/lappid.jpg

cartouche
Tuesday, September 26th, 2006, 06:54 PM
Baltic nations and Finns DO have a very high Uralic (mongoloid) admixture in the paternal Y-chromosome lineage (Y-haplogroup N). Eastern Europeans are, in general, descendants of paleolithic mammoth hunters from today's Ukraine, who expanded north after the last ice age.

Thus, the "Baltic type" is mostly an Ukrainian palelithic man (R1a1) mixed with Uralic-speaking mongoloids (N).

The highly discussed "Pontic type" in today's Ukraine is the same paleolithic man from Ukraine (about 50%) mixed mostly with Central Europeans (25%) and various other racial stocks.

As for "mongoloids", we should distinguish between MONGOLIDS (Mongols, Buryats) and MONGOLOIDS (Uralic-speaking people, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Siberian nations).

Mongolids are direct descendants of the first modern humans, who settled in East Asia during the Middle Paleolithic era, and were related to modern Australian aboriginals (Y-haplogroup C). Later they were probably pushed to Mongolia by people, who are related to modern Ainu (Y-haplogroup D).

About 35 000 years ago, mongolids dwelled in Mongolia and "Ainoids" in today's China and the Amur region. Then a big population change came: Hunters of the Cro-Magnoid stock (Y-haplogroup K) from Central Asia penetrated into southern Siberia following the herds of the megafauna and simply took some paleomongolid women. Soon they separated: one part remained in southern Siberia (Y-haplogroup N), while the second one (Y-haplogroup O) headed for southern China, where they survived the last ice age and subsequently expanded mainly south to Indonesia. Their current descendants are people speaking Chinese-Tibetan and Austronesian languages.

Another cromagnoid wave, the Proto-Indians (Q), also stayed in the Altai region for some time, and took some paleomongolid women, although obviously not in such numbers. Soon they set out for north-eastern Siberia, from where they later settled the American continent.

Hence, some Asian people and American Indians are not "true mongolid" at all. They could be called "mongoloid". They are a result of mixture between Cromagnoids and paleomongolids.

I think we should start to correct the archaic anthropological nomenclature according to modern genetic data and to get rid of all the mess. Old anthropologists like Coon, Lundman and others certainly did the best, what they then could, but they implemented a lot of misleading anthropological terms for people, who have nothing in common genetically. The worst case is the "Mediterranean/Mediterranoid type", a term for people of a very different origin (in fact, at least three genetically distinct groups), who may have something in common anthropologically, but not genetically.

Mercator
Tuesday, November 7th, 2006, 02:04 AM
This map shows where the Ladoganish race lives. Red areas indicate hotbeds of Ladoganish activity. Orange areas indicate high to moderate levels of Ladoganish activity. Yellow areas indicate some minimal Ladoganish activity. Green areas indicate no real Ladoganish activity among the native populations:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/Morton_XXI/europe.gif

The Ladoganish Race
Russia, Belarus and Ukraine: 40% Corded Nordic, 50% East Baltic, 5% Pontic, 5% Alpine = 50% Ladoganish Finland: 20% Nordic, 70% East Baltic, 10% Lappish = 80% Ladoganish Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania: 30% Nordic, 70% East Baltic = 70% Ladoganish Poland: 40% Nordic, 20% Dinaric, 30% East Baltic, 10% Alpine = 30% Ladoganish Hungary: 40% Dinaric, 20% Alpine, 20% East Baltic, 10% Nordic, 10% Turanid = 20% Ladoganish Croatia: 50% Dinaric, 25% Alpine, 15% East Baltic, 5% Nordic, 5% Turanid = 15% Ladoganish Sweden: 45% Nordic, 50% East Baltic, 5% Cromagnoid = 50% Ladoganish Iceland: 40% Nordic, 35% Lappish, 20% Keltic, 5% Inuitoid = 35% Ladoganish Saamiland: 80% Lappish, 10% Nordic, 10% Alpinid = 80% Ladoganish
http://www.geocities.com/ladoganish/

János Hunyadi
Tuesday, November 7th, 2006, 05:33 AM
http://www.geocities.com/ladoganish/


Did Lg make that site? :D

Mercator
Tuesday, November 7th, 2006, 07:43 AM
Did Lg make that site? :D

It seems:D The title is a joke:



M A R C H ___ O F ___ T H E ___ M I D G E T S




a History of the Ladoganish Race