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Johannes de León
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 04:40 PM
What are your favourites??? do you practice any kind of this sports?

Actually i practice Karate (Shotokan), Aikido, Muay Thai and a sport with a medieval sword that i can't remember how to say it in english!

Former sports: "Jogo do Pau" (traditional portuguese, the weapon is a really big wood stick), that olympic sport with the sword, i don't the name in english and at last, Judo (i only practiced it like a year, i don't like it!)

Taras Bulba
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 04:46 PM
I simply do grappling and submission fighting, those are my main fighting styles. I do boxing and punching once in a while, but my punches are weak(especially when compared to others). I also like fencing; both European and Japanese(which is called Kendo).

Johannes de León
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Fencing, i think that's it!!! i praticed that in the past!

here is a picture of the sport: http://www.fencing.net/templates/tdwfencingnet/images/blok2.jpg

Prince Eugen
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Kick boxing for me but now i'm interesting in Aikido!!!

Mac Seafraidh
Monday, April 26th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Professional Wrestling , Strongest Man Competitions , and Boxing


Also Street Fighting and Backyard Wrestling

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, May 25th, 2004, 07:41 AM
I did Kung-Fu for six years (16-22), boxing in my 30s to stay in shape, weight lifting (body building, Olympic lifts briefly). Now it is running, yoga and the heavy bag along with strength training (non-weight).

One other thing: every time I hit the beach it is the same old ego trip from my teenage years, is it big wave riddin' or just soup slidin'? Riding big waves are the ultimate human challenge, both physically and emotionally.

DrPest
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:06 AM
Hail,

my favourit Sports are Kickboxing and Thaiboxing.
A little bit force have. I didn't know, if it's the right name für (German:Kraftsport)
At the time I shoot with guns. I'm in a Contactor association.

Ok that's it

By
DrPest

Nordhammer
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:11 AM
Ninjutsu, bo staff, sword fighting, archery, knife throwing, horseback riding.

Nordhammer
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 08:14 AM
Check out the videos - http://www.teamryouko.com

Milesian
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 11:58 AM
I started off with Muay Thai, before moving onto Southern Chinese style Kickboxing. I was graduating onto Lau Gar Kung Fu and Filipino Stick Fighting, before my fickle nature came into play and the whole novelty wore off :)

I wouldn't mind learning that Irish Bata Stick Fighting though ;)

Turificator
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:06 PM
Boxe Francaise (Savate): straightforward, European and the only one I can practice!

Stephen
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 02:49 PM
Kempo all the way. ;)

Nordhammer
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 09:22 PM
I want to learn the gun kata from Equilibrium. :)

Taras Bulba
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 03:14 AM
[QUOTE=Nordhammer]Ninjutsu, [\QUOTE]

Problem with that martial arts is that so theres so much BS that its often hard to determine what is geniune and what isnt. IMHO, just read special forces/military manuals and you'll learn more from those than most Ninjutsu literature.

Nordhammer
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 04:16 AM
Ninjutsu,

Problem with that martial arts is that so theres so much BS that its often hard to determine what is geniune and what isnt. IMHO, just read special forces/military manuals and you'll learn more from those than most Ninjutsu literature.

Well, there are no laws in America as to who can open a martial arts school or write literature. So any jackleg can with no real certifications. Authentic Ninjutsu from Japan is the best martial art I've tried.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 06:16 AM
Milesian mentioned "Irish Stick fighting" and Turificator mentioned Savate. There are some mail-order courses in some sort of Russian martial art. There is Greco-Roman wrestling. Boxing was invented in Europe. All these are European and may have less mumbo-jumbo than the Asian martial arts. It would be great to have links to as many as possible as part of European Cultural Preservation.

Johannes de León
Saturday, May 29th, 2004, 08:36 AM
0Originally published in Os Portugueses e o Mundo, Conferência Internacional, VI Volume, "Artes, Arqueologia e Etnografia," date unknown.


http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2003/manlymisc03/Puxadores.jpg


An assembly of Jogo do Pau players, circa 1910



A LITTLE HISTORY

Jogo do Pau ("the stick game," or "stick-fencing") is a fighting style employing a simple staff, approximately the height of the player, in techniques of attack and defence. In the generic sense, stick fighting has been practised throughout the world and was refined as a practical technique in some European countries such as Portugal, France. England (quarter-staff) and also in the majority of Eastern countries, including India, China, Japan (bo-jutsu), Thailand, Vietnam and Afghanistan. In the latter nations that still preserve their medieval customs of combat, any tourist who ventures a little into the interior of the country can witness bloody individual combats, including inter-clan rivalries fought with staves.

Human beings have always had to fight to survive and humans have always employed tools. The simple stick was almost certainly among the first tools to be turned to martial purposes, as an instrument of attack and defence against animals. As societies evolved from the nomadic hunting and food gathering stage, conflicts arose; competition over resources, etc. boiled over into personal combat, and people created series of specific movements, attacks and defences, with their utilitarian sticks. The specific nature of these actions depended on geographic conditions, as well as cultural and other factors. This new fighting technique varied not only by country, but also by the length of the stick or staff most commonly employed. Few stick fighting methods were developed for staves over two metres in length.

Afghan and Indian forms of stick-fighting included training and combat with a wide variety of wooden weapons, of different lengths and timbers. Other forms, such as the English quarter-staff, probably so-called because the fighter gripped his weapon with his right hand one-quarter of the way along its length, employed robust hardwood staves. The quarter-staff was two meters long, requiring management with both hands; as with the Portuguese Jogo do Pau, it doubled as a sport and as a combat system.

However, the different techniques used for the diverse lengths of staff are very similar both throughout Asian countries, largely inspired by the Indian style, and in the majority of the Occidental countries, such as England and France. The various stick fighting styles and the combative matrix that they are part of (generally in the rural areas) each have a characteristic tone. This seems to be the result of deep cultural trends that define the degree to which agonistic aggression is related to a fundamentally ludic or "sporting" approach. The great difference between the Occidental and the Asian styles lies in the mentality with that they practise their techniques.

In Portugal one very rich technique was developed, adapted to a type of wood known as o varapau or cajado. As with the development of staff weapons in other countries, the pau was also part of the normal equipment of the field-worker, used as a walking stick or hiking staff and as an elementary weapon of self-defence itself against the aggression of people and animals.

As a defensive or offensive weapon, the stick is a so simple in form that few ethnologies include it in the category of "hand-held weapons". However, a good stick player is not afraid to face any adversary who uses these other weapons. The question is whether formalised stick fighting represents a specialised aspect of the use of the staff as a utilitarian tool, or if, contrarily, the utilitarian usage is simply an expansion of the "staff as weapon."

In the North of Portugal (all over Minho), the staff was used by young men patrolling their lands, by travellers, and by shepherds in the high mountain ranges. A variety of lengths and grips were employed. The staff grip would be shortened while ascending steep terrain, however when descending, the grip would often be lengthened. Thus the staff was often used as a walking stick, and even to vault over shallow streams. The shepherd perched on a steep slope and the merchant in the fair would lean on their staves, thus alleviating strain on their legs. Also the cow-herd used the staff to direct cattle, and, when necessary, to drive away wolves, as much in his own defence as in that of the cattle entrusted to his care. "The stick was only released from the hand when one went to talk with his sweetheart; then the stick was left at the door, to indicate that others had no business there." Moreover, in these lands the staff was the weapon par excellence, deciding the daily conflicts that sprang from rivalries between villages, love affairs, disputes over irrigation systems, and so-on.

Every boy felt himself to be a young man when he could fight with a stick and went with his friends on patrol: it was considered as fine a thing as being a knight armed for battle.

Who in Portugal did not hear tell of the stick-fights at fairs (not only in the North, but all across the country), where entire villages were consumed in bloody, mortal combats?

Also, pilgrimages and parties were always concluded with paulada (stick-fencing matches) between young men of different villages.

The stick was efficient beyond any doubt. When played well, it conferred great advantages to its wielder in a fight. Some stick-fights have become part of Northern Portuguese folklore. Here is the story of a battle towards the end of the 1800s, that took place in a fair in Galiza, as told by Xanquin Lorenzo Fernandez of Orense, in an article sent by him to the journal Comércio do Porto in 1950, entitled O Varapau ("the Stick".)

Fernandez writes:

It took place in the fair of Porqueiróz. This was an annual fair, a gathering of merchants from all across the judicial district and from elsewhere as well. The people of different villages took their cattle and their fruits, and it became one of the best fairs of the Galiza at that time. Once, for an unknown reason, a dispute started between some merchants and two Portuguese who, living as neighbours in those lands, went to Porqueiroz together. The dispute started, as always, at the "hour of sticks." One of the Portuguese, upon seeing danger, cried out to his friend:

-"Oh brother! Together back to back " And like this, each one with his stick, they had defended themselves alone against their attackers. Over much time they had remained firm, in spite of the many aggressors; little by little, they got rid of their adversaries; some were wounded and others, faint-hearted. It is fitting that they triumphed, who alone had "undone the fair." Such was the superiority of their skill in Jogo do Pau.

And he continues:

In all the rest of the Galiza, I am unaware of such weapon. Thus, it seems evident to me that it was an instrument of Portuguese origin; the fact of its usually being used in the border lands, not in the remaining portion of Galiza but otherwise being very common in Portugal.

The Jogo do Pau was, therefore, an integral part of life in Northern Portugal. Throughout the country there existed schools where groups of eager youngsters came to learn from old masters who were well paid for their lessons. It was considered proper for parents to send their children to these masters so that they learned this discipline, as part of their education; such was the esteem given to the Jogo do Pau at this time.

It was common in the long nights of summer to see groups of young people exercising with staves, in training sessions that often lasted almost until the break of dawn.

But this grand era of stick-fights in the fairs and pilgrimages was almost the final epoch. By the 1930s, Northern Jogo do Pau was in decline. There were several inter-related factors that caused this decay. After all the fights in fairs, the police authorities began to enforce laws that forbade the bearing of staves within festival enclosures. Also, emigration to foreign lands and migrations into the great cities, done generally at the bequest of the family heads who could not earn enough from the land that they cultivated, created a "generation gap" of puxadores (the name which was assigned to the Northern players).

On the other hand, the ease of acquiring firearms also contributed to the decline of Jogo do Pau, in that personal justice with the staff demanded intensive training, so that a weak person became powerful enough to trust the efficiency of his weapon.

Thus, for these and other reasons of little weight, this art of combat in the North of Portugal was reduced, leaving only small schools where groups of old players trained for exhibition games.

However, Jogo do Pau also underwent an important migration. After leaving the original nucleus of the Minho it swiftly passed through the capital, crossed the Tejo and became established in the Southern zone, mainly in Estremadura and Ribatejo.

During this journey there emerged a group of professional masters who traversed the country offering training in different locations. The most famous of these were the masters Calado Campos, father and son, known as pretos ("the one who is black"), who had taught from Minho to Setúbal. The most professional Jogo do Pau master was Joaquim Baú, who rode a mule across Portugal living only on donations exchanged for the lessons he gave.

Also, day-labourers of Minho and Trás-os-Montes who had travelled to the South of the Country had been greatly responsible for the transmission of Jogo do Pau to this zone. Since the end of the 1800s, Jogo do Pau had spread through Lisbon, where it found a new home.

In the city, under very different conditions to those of the rural Provinces, the "spirit" of Jogo do Pau was somewhat changed. Once free of the violent imperatives of its original time and place, the art adapted more towards sport and exhibition. The first gymnasium to teach this new form of the art were the Ginasio Real, today known as Ginásio Clube Português, the Atheneu Comercial de Lisboa and the Lisboa Ginasio Clube. Other than these centres, the traditional Quintais ("Yards") were still used for Jogo do Pau training. The Yards were enclosed by walls surrounding interior patios. These establishments could be found throughout Lisbon and in them were trained hundreds of players who received lessons from the master or the foreman of the school (style) of their choice.

These famous Yards were not, contrary to the popular supposition of the middle classes, mere hang-outs for rowdies and low-life. Working men, mostly villagers from Trás-os-Montes, Minho and other northern provinces, had a special taste for this exercise that was practised with admiration in the lands of their origin. The enthusiasm of these men in learning was always great because they appreciated education, and they were prepared to pay dearly in appreciation of the sacrifices made by the Masters. Therefore, the fee for a lesson lasting only 10 minutes corresponded to the daily wage of a labourer at that time.

It is easy to understand that a man who often did not earn more than four hundred réis per day by pulling rock out of a quarry, or five hundred or six hundred réis in any another circumstance, did not pay the master to satisfy vanity. But even in Lisbon the height of this art lasted only a short time due to various factors, such as the introduction of new and fashionable foreign sports. Because they were novel, these sports had come to captivate the younger generations, leading to a "lost generation" of Jogo do Pau players. If the art had not been preserved through the devotion of some individual players, Jogo do Pau (which is today being revived with great enthusiasm in homage to those heroic times of the old Puxadores) would have been in danger of becoming extinct. Therefore practically nothing had been written on the subject, all of the techniques having been transmitted orally, in the traditional way



links:
http://www.arscives.com/jogodopau/1.htm (some techniques, smaller-than-usual stick)
http://www.jogodopau.com/ (more sport, less traditional, lots of videos)

these links are all in english! :D

Bluterbe
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Hi,
[at first, sorry for my bad english:D ]
i'm interesst, which martial-art are you doing, and which does you favour.

I practice Jeet Kune Do, Panantukan [filipino-boxing], Kali [filipino stav- and knife-fighting].

Favours of mine are Kick-Boxing, Muay Thai / Thai-Boxing, Muay Boran, Jeet Kune Do, Panantukan, Vale-Tudo and Full-Contact-Karate.
Things like Ninjutsu, Ju-Jutsu, Kali, Boxing, Tae-Kwon-Do and some others are in my mind more for to practice your own techniks.

Regards, Philipp

Prince Eugen
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Kick-boxing and aikido!

Johannes de León
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Nowadays I don't have time to practise much, I still do some fencing (but with rapiers, not fencing swords) because I'm teaching my young brother. But here are the former martial arts I've practised.

"Jogo do Pau" (traditional Portuguese), Karate (Shotokan), Aikido, Muay Thai, and some with a medieval swords that i can't recall the name.

Olga
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 09:00 PM
What are the rules of jogo do pau?
I don't do any martial arts but I always wanted to. Unfortunately my health condition doesn't allow me to perform several types of sports, so I still seek the right one for me.

Johannes de León
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 09:22 PM
What are the rules of jogo do pau?
I don't do any martial arts but I always wanted to. Unfortunately my health condition doesn't allow me to perform several types of sports, so I still seek the right one for me. http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=122782&postcount=17

;)

Phill
Wednesday, September 29th, 2004, 11:56 PM
I know the ancient Scandinavian art of Kickyourass-Fu. It's quite effective.

AryanKrieger
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Kick boxing tends to have greater practical value in a self defence situation.

White Falcon
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 02:38 PM
I practice "run 'n' hide".

Milesian
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 04:26 PM
I done Kickboxing in the past, but IMO Muay-Thai is one of the most effective

Mistress Klaus
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 04:30 PM
I dislike any kind of Asian fighting styles. :D Same goes for Asian food.

Hellenic Eagle
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:01 AM
Boxing, Kick Boxing, Wrestling and Tae Kwon Do in the past. Also, Street Fighting ;) .

Olga
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:02 AM
ah I would have forgotten, I practice every martial art in TEKKEN. :)

Taras Bulba
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:26 AM
A combo of boxing and combat grappling.

Phill
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 01:13 AM
I dislike any kind of Asian fighting styles. :D Same goes for Asian food.

I pretty much agree. It's not that I'm anti-Asian or whatever... But I'm seriously starting to get sick of EVERYONE in the TV world knowing hardcore kung-fu. Yeah, it's impressive the first couple times through... but afterwards it starts to get just like... blah.

Just watch a movie called "The Five Fingers of Death" and it alone should explain things out perfectly. Everyone can jump twenty feet up in the air, punch through thick wooden pillars, or break through a solid tree with their forehead. It gets so boring and repeatitive it's not even funny - you only know who's kung-fu is better by when they jump in the air the victor will kick the other guy down then kick the shit out of him... and even then afterwards it could go the other way.

It's almost like basketball... if you're not tall, don't even bother playing. It's pretty much boiled down to who's the tallest, then who can learn to play basketball better and faster. It would be so much more interesting if they didn't allow anyone over 5'6" to play!

Evolved
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:18 AM
Judo, throwing people around looks fun.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:56 AM
I have done Kung-Fu and boxing. After awhile this all boiled down to two things. The first was physical culture or the value of the workout. The second was practical self-defense. The Chinese systems offer a great deal of body building value although it is not bodybuilding in the Western sense. The self-defense value is somewhat mixed. Boxing (western boxing) offers less in the way of changing the physical body although perhaps more in terms of getting ready for a particular fight. Boxing has a greater practical value but it is still not a one to one relationship because boxing is a sport. Boxing's value is also that it is done for real. In a "real" situation, Homo sapiens possesses much greater coordination with his hands than feet and this clearly shows in real world fighting. Also, simple, straight, direct moves are always better than complicated, "flowery" moves.

It seems to me that manytimes an actual fight or attack ends up on the ground in a mix of punching, wrestling, kicking, gouging and biting. Learing to cold-cock (knockout) the opponent with one punch lessens this possibility but it is always there and always an option if you chose it. Therefore, learing boxing as well as some sort of grappling art seems to me to be the ultimate in self-defense.

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 03:20 PM
Muay Thai, Kendo (I still practice it) and the portuguese Jogo do Pau or Varapau (which is a kind of "kendo" of portuguese origin).

Taras Bulba
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 07:34 PM
Asian martial arts are highly overrated these days. The problem is that they've become too ritualized to have any significant effect in real-life fighting.

People seem to forget that Europe has its own traditions of martial arts, and I just purchased an interesting magazine about unarmed combat methods of the Middle Ages. Just as effective(if not more) than anything the Shaolin monks practiced.

Johannes de León
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 07:51 PM
Asian martial arts are highly overrated these days. The problem is that they've become too ritualized to have any significant effect in real-life fighting.

People seem to forget that Europe has its own traditions of martial arts, and I just purchased an interesting magazine about unarmed combat methods of the Middle Ages. Just as effective(if not more) than anything the Shaolin monks practiced. Recently I have read a book in the library about Savate, I become quite interested in that, however I doubt I can find a good teacher outside France. :(

Can you please give more information on those Medieval unarmed combat methods?

Taras Bulba
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 08:10 PM
Can you please give more information on those Medieval unarmed combat methods?

Sure, Ive been meaning to post the article and the pictures anyways for some time. Hopefully it will be soon.

Well heres some links for you:
http://alliancemartialarts.com/medievallinks.htm
http://www.aemma.org/
http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/
http://www.the-exiles.org/

Heres a good site showing some of the techniques of medieval unarmed combat:
http://alliancemartialarts.com/techniques4.html

Bluterbe
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 12:28 AM
Yes, you are right with your answer, that most martials arts from asia are for our times today to overrated.
But, the south-east arts like Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Panantukan, Silat, etc. are in my opinion very good, because they are good brutality and not so acrobatik like some shaolin arts.
Ju Jutsu from Japan, Wing Tsun from China, Hapkido and Taekwondo from Korea are very good to in combination with direct arts like Muay Thai, Kickboxing, etc.

Flavius Julianus
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 11:12 AM
I am of the same opinion as Doctor Solar Wolff and Taras Bulba. A fight is a combination that starts with blows (and may end with them) but often ends with grappling and groundfighting.

Do not think that English boxing is at an enormous disadvantage because it does not use kicks. Its firm postures are an asset that is superior in a real brawl to showy acrobatic high kick martial arts (Bruce Lee himself started with a Southern Chinese Yang style which did not use kicks)
That is not to say that arts that use kicks are useless. Far from it. A few low kicks to the tibias can easily undermine most of an opponent's defensive capacities. A middle kick to the lever or the groin can puts an end to the story, too. A realistic fighter who does not use them should be prepared to receive some.

As for oriental martial arts, they have indeed been overvalued since a few decades mainly due to modern spectacular martial arts movies and series; so much so that they have become the norm of what we think real fight is all about.
Not that they are not efficient, provided you can make a difference between reality and fiction. The problem is that they are often too ritualized, as it has been said before, and an oriental martial artist is often unconsciously impregnated by the knightly fairplay habits of the dojo. It might prove fatal in a real fight, which often starts without warning, viciously, and not necessarily face to face at a 2 meter distance, or on the contrary coming after a long process of intimidation that paralyzes you.

In fact, the efficiency of a fighter lays not so much in the technique (a few simple techniques may be sufficient in most brawls) but in its mental attitude. To put it in a nutshell, you must be prepared to be attacked at any moment anywhere. Sounds paranoid ? Maybe, but real life is not a TV series.
There is a scene in Kurozawa's 'The seven samurais' which illustrates this. The leader wants to recruit able warriors and puts them to a test: each time one of his would-be mercenaries comes into the recruitment room, an accomplice hiding next to the door strikes him with a club. The leader makes his choice depending on the attitude and reaction of the candidate.
The best of them is ALWAYS on his guard when passing a door and is never caught by surprise and ready to counter-attack. The attitude of a warrior. The attitude of a survivor.
What ? It's a movie ? Well, indeed, but the proof that fiction is/was sometimes very well inspired.

The real problem that impedes many oriental (and western) arts) is not the style (there is not an unlimited variety of blows a human body can deliver) but the way they are taught today. More often than not, they have become sports. Useful in a brawl, but maybe not in a life or death confrontation.

Another problem, due to historical reasons (I shall talk about that in a future post if some of you are interested) is the mystification which has always accompanied oriental martial arts since their diffusion to the Western world:
they make you invincible, teach you surnatural secrets, give you quasi-magical powers, the vital points, make a weakling easily vanquish a brute etc, without effort. All that has been amplified by cinema, and according to the Chinese saying, 'a lie repeated thousandfold becomes a truth'.

Not that some real secrets do not exist, and they are jealously kept in the top inner circles. But 99.99% of lifelong martial artists will never hear of them. It has even led many quasi-top martial artists (7th/8th dan - more about the dan system and what it really represents later if you are interested) to believe "there are no secrets in martial arts but practice, practice, practice". True for most artists, and absolutely necessary before the "top ones" are told about some interesting stuff watched, experienced and analyzed by centuries of practice (= in real life or death situations such as war).

The last problem, in connection with the first one, is that most 'percussion oriental arts' do not really deliver the blows, such as in modern karate or kung fu (/wu shu), but stop them at a few centimeters of the targets. It might confuse such a martial artist in a real confontation insofar as he has no experience of real blows and how to take them, which can lead to disastrous consequences, physically and psychologically.
Same thing, to a lesser extent, for the blows if he does not train with a makiwara (punching board). Fortunately, most western styles and dojos have kept this excellent habit, which is superior to the traditional striking bag of boxe.

Can it be concluded that styles that really deliver blows are superior to 'restrained-blows' arts? Yes, in that they physically and psychologically get you used to receive blows. No, in that a blow delivered with gloves is not a real blow. It gives a good idea of what a blow is/feels like, but can also lead a fighter into dangerous delusion about the consequences of a real life strike, not to speak of the risks of wounding the fists. No, in the sense that closing one's hand into a fist might not be the best way of using it whatever a Westerner accustomed to "realistic" boxing may think.

The recent devellopment and study of fighting methods worldwide seem to have proven that 'real' blows styles were undoubtedly superior in fight to the former, such as in the K1 competitions, were Kickboxers and Thai Boxers have been reigning for a few years (I simplify).
However, a couple of months ago, a meeting between two teams of K1 fighters and Kyokushinkai karate fighters have shown the undeniable superioriy of the latter in both rule set confrontings.
Of course, one meeting does not prove everything, but one might wonder whether the combination of the realistic semi-contact/kick boxing method of Kyokushinkai karate with its more 'traditional' kihon-kata-kumite practice is not ahead on the way to realism and efficiency.

The sincere study of the real efficiency in a fight has been very seriously studied publicly for roughly 30 years, especially by the Westerners, who wanted to know once for all which method was the best and whether those oriental arts were serious or just fantasies. It seems most have been leaning towards the latter conclusion (which is good for our racial pride) although some bad surprises have happened now and then.

Now, another illusion had been develloped since the 60's among the martial arts world,

Flavius Julianus
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 06:33 PM
... the illusion of the preponderance of "percussion arts" (karate/kickboxing) over the grappling methods (judo/wrestling). After WWII, judo had been the first oriental 'martial art' crowned with the reputation of invincibility brought to the West, still confused with its direct ancestor, jiu-jitsu, modernized into judo by Jigoro Kano. In the 60's, new arrivers seized the crown: karate, and its Chinese forerunner, kung fu/ wushu. Bruce Lee movies greatly magnified that impression.

(there is a not well-known anecdote about Bruce Lee. As he was on the set of "the Green Hornet", the series that made him famous in the 60's, he took a bashing by Gene Lebell, a tough judo fighter and stuntman)

Until the 90's, when Ultimate Fighting Championship, stunned the world of martial arts as Brazilian jiu jitsu wrestlers brought helpless kickboxers to the ground and choke or armlocked them. Gracie family's jiu jitsu had entered the field and reigned for a while with their amazing spidery strategy of taking their opponent to the ground where they would vanquish them with their superior groundfighting techniques.

After a while, traumatized kickboxers started training in various methods including wrestling and, in turn, succeeding in getting the upper hand. The era of Mixed Martial Arts had started.

In the meantime, kickboxers and the like had learnt to rediscover how to keep grapplers at a distance, forced to get out of the 'I hit you, you hit me only' routine to which they had got accustomed, and of the modern karate myth of 'One punch should be sufficient to neutralize an opponent'. Mental attitude again.

Today, it seems MMA and cross training is the most efficient thing (until the next revelation).

Nothing new under the sun. Specialized martial arts (percussion/grappling/weapons) is a very modern trend dating back to Japanese Meiji era (end of the 19th century, roughly speaking).

Seing the end of inner feuds, martial arts masters feared their arts would fade into oblivion, created dojos and systematically codified their methods into so-called Dos (=ways), replacing the old jutsus (=techniques), themselves a weakened form of the original kakuto bugeis (=techniques of war) tested on the battlefields during centuries.

Many 'percussion' Chinese arts have kept take-downs and weapons, which may give an impression of confusion at first, a "jack of all trades, master of none" feeling which is quite deceiving.

Would not it be better to focus on something one is good at, instead of doing everything badly?

Well, for the modern man training twice a week, maybe. For the warrior of the past fighting on battlefields and ready to be attacked at the corner of the woods, no. On the contrary, it was a bunch of keys to his survival.

Does it mean Europe never develloped martial arts?

Since the end of WWII, the very term of martial arts has become a synonym of 'oriental -often unarmed- martial arts. Martial arts etymologically means 'the art of Roman god of war Mars', which is not gratuitous. Those very words have nothing oriental in fact.

As far as swordmanship is concerned, the Western world has a very rich, millenial history which has nothing to be envious of anybody, very far from it.

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals

http://www.thehaca.com/
As to unarmed combat, the modern Western man has been so brainwashed by the politically correct, incredibly ignorant, or spectacular, pictures industry into believing Europe has nothing to offer except 'out of fashion' English boxing or Greco-roman wrestling (about which there are a lot of things to say) that he thinks the usual TV series with high-kicking stuntmen is a real fight is all about.

Rather than writing a long paper, I will just put a few links (pictures) I invite you to check:

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/44.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/39.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/49.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/85.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/202.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/th19.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/th14.jpg


Do these pictures not evoke names such as tai otoshi, o utsi gari, o soto gari, ippon seoi nage, o goshi or kata guruma?

Or Mae geri?

I have not found another of a tomoe nage (spectacular stomach throw), but you get the idea. Same thing with 'karate' kicks and dagger against unarmed fighting. There are plenty of them in our litterature.

Just dig and you will find...

These pictures are drawn from two medieval and Renaissance handbooks recapitulating age old techniques used on medieval battlefields which were common knowledge at the period. There exists older manuals depicting or describing such techniques. Older than any equivallent Japanese or Chinese treatise.

Western masters such as Tallhoffer had their own 'salles d'armes', traditions, schools and students.

Research is quite recent in this field, and not broadly publicized for obvious reasons

Scholars have serious grounds to think a good part of them inherited the awesome Greek pancrace (=total fighting; UFC and K1 are childish games compared to what is described by ancient writers, such as that Dramoxenus being denied victory in finals because he had disembowelled his opponent with hardened hands) and pugilat. Pancrace was dating back well before 700 BC. Some experts suspect that Alexander the Great's soldiers who invaded India brought it there, where it was not forgotten and passed to China through legendary high cast (=white) Bodidharma, who according to Indian and Chinese lore, brought martial arts to the first Shaolin temple.

It would be silly to force an origin of oriental martial arts into Europe out of racial chauvinism since every people has develloped its own methods according to similar needs, but as you can see, according to modern research, this possibility is far from being ridiculous.

So, what would be my choice for modern self defence?

For blows: Thai boxing (Muay thai), or one of its brothers kick boxing, full contact or Savate (French boxing). The latter are not allowed elbows, and a few others. I listed them in decreasing order of 'what is permissible'. Keep in mind it is not a question of 'who is the best', but a question of what is allowed by the rules of sport competition. So, you will have to complete your arsenal easily by picking up a few open hand techniques and elbow/knee/tibia strikes in the manuals of other methods. Use your common sense rather than the opinion of a 'master'.

Kyokushinkai karate, the hard style of karate, is a must, too, and you might discover things not taught in the more modern styles which will make you efficient even at 60, but you will need a lot of time, probably a life.

http://www.dolph-ultimate.com/

For take-downs and ground fighting: Jiu jitsu (Brazilian if possible, but do know the Gracie family has just rediscovered efficient techniques and training methods long forgotten or hidden by the Japanese original; a proof that intelligence, common sense and experimentation are THE way), or judo or a form of wrestling. There again, do not hesitate to cross train without a gi/kimono and to pick up techniques of other methods.

Of course, this choice may be different depending on whether you are a strong man, or a petite woman, young and vigorous, or older.

Just remember there will always be something for you, but do not nurture illusions of omnipotence.

A good mental attitude is the best martial art, if you had to choose only one.

Kaledfwlch
Sunday, October 3rd, 2004, 06:01 PM
I've done karate kyokushin for 8 years. I also did judo for 2 years and some boxing :) . All of them were effective. I also consider muay thai, wresting, brazilian jiu jitsu, savate for effective martial arts. Now I usually train with boxing bag and do some weight lifting :) .

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 08:28 AM
... the illusion of the preponderance of "percussion arts" (karate/kickboxing) over the grappling methods (judo/wrestling). After WWII, judo had been the first oriental 'martial art' crowned with the reputation of invincibility brought to the West, still confused with its direct ancestor, jiu-jitsu, modernized into judo by Jigoro Kano. In the 60's, new arrivers seized the crown: karate, and its Chinese forerunner, kung fu/ wushu. Bruce Lee movies greatly magnified that impression.

(there is a not well-known anecdote about Bruce Lee. As he was on the set of "the Green Hornet", the series that made him famous in the 60's, he took a bashing by Gene Lebell, a tough judo fighter and stuntman)

Until the 90's, when Ultimate Fighting Championship, stunned the world of martial arts as Brazilian jiu jitsu wrestlers brought helpless kickboxers to the ground and choke or armlocked them. Gracie family's jiu jitsu had entered the field and reigned for a while with their amazing spidery strategy of taking their opponent to the ground where they would vanquish them with their superior groundfighting techniques.

After a while, traumatized kickboxers started training in various methods including wrestling and, in turn, succeeding in getting the upper hand. The era of Mixed Martial Arts had started.

In the meantime, kickboxers and the like had learnt to rediscover how to keep grapplers at a distance, forced to get out of the 'I hit you, you hit me only' routine to which they had got accustomed, and of the modern karate myth of 'One punch should be sufficient to neutralize an opponent'. Mental attitude again.

Today, it seems MMA and cross training is the most efficient thing (until the next revelation).

Nothing new under the sun. Specialized martial arts (percussion/grappling/weapons) is a very modern trend dating back to Japanese Meiji era (end of the 19th century, roughly speaking).

Seing the end of inner feuds, martial arts masters feared their arts would fade into oblivion, created dojos and systematically codified their methods into so-called Dos (=ways), replacing the old jutsus (=techniques), themselves a weakened form of the original kakuto bugeis (=techniques of war) tested on the battlefields during centuries.

Many 'percussion' Chinese arts have kept take-downs and weapons, which may give an impression of confusion at first, a "jack of all trades, master of none" feeling which is quite deceiving.

Would not it be better to focus on something one is good at, instead of doing everything badly?

Well, for the modern man training twice a week, maybe. For the warrior of the past fighting on battlefields and ready to be attacked at the corner of the woods, no. On the contrary, it was a bunch of keys to his survival.

Does it mean Europe never develloped martial arts?

Since the end of WWII, the very term of martial arts has become a synonym of 'oriental -often unarmed- martial arts. Martial arts etymologically means 'the art of Roman god of war Mars', which is not gratuitous. Those very words have nothing oriental in fact.

As far as swordmanship is concerned, the Western world has a very rich, millenial history which has nothing to be envious of anybody, very far from it.

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals

http://www.thehaca.com/
As to unarmed combat, the modern Western man has been so brainwashed by the politically correct, incredibly ignorant, or spectacular, pictures industry into believing Europe has nothing to offer except 'out of fashion' English boxing or Greco-roman wrestling (about which there are a lot of things to say) that he thinks the usual TV series with high-kicking stuntmen is a real fight is all about.

Rather than writing a long paper, I will just put a few links (pictures) I invite you to check:

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/44.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/39.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/49.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/85.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/202.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/th19.jpg

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/th14.jpg


Do these pictures not evoke names such as tai otoshi, o utsi gari, o soto gari, ippon seoi nage, o goshi or kata guruma?

Or Mae geri?

I have not found another of a tomoe nage (spectacular stomach throw), but you get the idea. Same thing with 'karate' kicks and dagger against unarmed fighting. There are plenty of them in our litterature.

Just dig and you will find...

These pictures are drawn from two medieval and Renaissance handbooks recapitulating age old techniques used on medieval battlefields which were common knowledge at the period. There exists older manuals depicting or describing such techniques. Older than any equivallent Japanese or Chinese treatise.

Western masters such as Tallhoffer had their own 'salles d'armes', traditions, schools and students.

Research is quite recent in this field, and not broadly publicized for obvious reasons

Scholars have serious grounds to think a good part of them inherited the awesome Greek pancrace (=total fighting; UFC and K1 are childish games compared to what is described by ancient writers, such as that Dramoxenus being denied victory in finals because he had disembowelled his opponent with hardened hands) and pugilat. Pancrace was dating back well before 700 BC. Some experts suspect that Alexander the Great's soldiers who invaded India brought it there, where it was not forgotten and passed to China through legendary high cast (=white) Bodidharma, who according to Indian and Chinese lore, brought martial arts to the first Shaolin temple.

It would be silly to force an origin of oriental martial arts into Europe out of racial chauvinism since every people has develloped its own methods according to similar needs, but as you can see, according to modern research, this possibility is far from being ridiculous.

So, what would be my choice for modern self defence?

For blows: Thai boxing (Muay thai), or one of its brothers kick boxing, full contact or Savate (French boxing). The latter are not allowed elbows, and a few others. I listed them in decreasing order of 'what is permissible'. Keep in mind it is not a question of 'who is the best', but a question of what is allowed by the rules of sport competition. So, you will have to complete your arsenal easily by picking up a few open hand techniques and elbow/knee/tibia strikes in the manuals of other methods. Use your common sense rather than the opinion of a 'master'.

Kyokushinkai karate, the hard style of karate, is a must, too, and you might discover things not taught in the more modern styles which will make you efficient even at 60, but you will need a lot of time, probably a life.

http://www.dolph-ultimate.com/

For take-downs and ground fighting: Jiu jitsu (Brazilian if possible, but do know the Gracie family has just rediscovered efficient techniques and training methods long forgotten or hidden by the Japanese original; a proof that intelligence, common sense and experimentation are THE way), or judo or a form of wrestling. There again, do not hesitate to cross train without a gi/kimono and to pick up techniques of other methods.

Of course, this choice may be different depending on whether you are a strong man, or a petite woman, young and vigorous, or older.

Just remember there will always be something for you, but do not nurture illusions of omnipotence.

A good mental attitude is the best martial art, if you had to choose only one.


Gene Lebell had a cabin in a small mountain community in which I once lived. He trained selected individuals in what he called "combat judo", mostly other stuntmen. The story goes (verified by more than once source) that Lebell once worked on the set of a movie starring Steven Segal. Evidently, nobody really respected Segal because after filming was over Segal challenged, rather rudely, any stunt man to fight who didn't think he (Segal) was mister-macho. Lebell quietly stood up and they went at it. After a couple moves an ambulence was called and they took Segal away, unconcious.

MarquisKobold
Sunday, October 10th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Actually i practice Taekwondo and Hapkido, in the future if i find a good school i might do some Shotokan Karate.

jab
Friday, November 5th, 2004, 11:47 PM
Modern Katate styles in competion fly like a butterfly sting like a bee thats good. However in Wing chun styles of Kung Fu are not so good . Chow Gar southern china Praying mantis in a bone breaking up close street fight. They have a great (Chow gar) bone hardening technique. This originated from the shaolon monks . I have seen them practice chi . breathing exerices with hand movements calling up power from th Earth through your body. I can't explain it but it works . They then break rocks with bare hands. hypnotised i think when they lie on a bed of nails. akiekido for restraining people taking an angry man prisoner.. and nobody has mentioned weapons . :snake samourai sword for me
bushido. Lastly a code of honour that the Jap :halo ettieque has is good for discipline and keeps their national warrior spirit alive. :~( we have nothing like that in boxing or wrestling great ape hype . maybe fencing has but i don,t know. :tombstone Perhaps we have lost in Europe the Knights Chivalry and swordsmanship. ave 18

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, November 11th, 2004, 07:45 AM
I am of the same opinion as Doctor Solar Wolff and Taras Bulba. A fight is a combination that starts with blows (and may end with them) but often ends with grappling and groundfighting.

Do not think that English boxing is at an enormous disadvantage because it does not use kicks. Its firm postures are an asset that is superior in a real brawl to showy acrobatic high kick martial arts (Bruce Lee himself started with a Southern Chinese Yang style which did not use kicks)
That is not to say that arts that use kicks are useless. Far from it. A few low kicks to the tibias can easily undermine most of an opponent's defensive capacities. A middle kick to the lever or the groin can puts an end to the story, too. A realistic fighter who does not use them should be prepared to receive some.

As for oriental martial arts, they have indeed been overvalued since a few decades mainly due to modern spectacular martial arts movies and series; so much so that they have become the norm of what we think real fight is all about.
Not that they are not efficient, provided you can make a difference between reality and fiction. The problem is that they are often too ritualized, as it has been said before, and an oriental martial artist is often unconsciously impregnated by the knightly fairplay habits of the dojo. It might prove fatal in a real fight, which often starts without warning, viciously, and not necessarily face to face at a 2 meter distance, or on the contrary coming after a long process of intimidation that paralyzes you.

In fact, the efficiency of a fighter lays not so much in the technique (a few simple techniques may be sufficient in most brawls) but in its mental attitude. To put it in a nutshell, you must be prepared to be attacked at any moment anywhere. Sounds paranoid ? Maybe, but real life is not a TV series.
There is a scene in Kurozawa's 'The seven samurais' which illustrates this. The leader wants to recruit able warriors and puts them to a test: each time one of his would-be mercenaries comes into the recruitment room, an accomplice hiding next to the door strikes him with a club. The leader makes his choice depending on the attitude and reaction of the candidate.
The best of them is ALWAYS on his guard when passing a door and is never caught by surprise and ready to counter-attack. The attitude of a warrior. The attitude of a survivor.
What ? It's a movie ? Well, indeed, but the proof that fiction is/was sometimes very well inspired.

The real problem that impedes many oriental (and western) arts) is not the style (there is not an unlimited variety of blows a human body can deliver) but the way they are taught today. More often than not, they have become sports. Useful in a brawl, but maybe not in a life or death confrontation.

Another problem, due to historical reasons (I shall talk about that in a future post if some of you are interested) is the mystification which has always accompanied oriental martial arts since their diffusion to the Western world:
they make you invincible, teach you surnatural secrets, give you quasi-magical powers, the vital points, make a weakling easily vanquish a brute etc, without effort. All that has been amplified by cinema, and according to the Chinese saying, 'a lie repeated thousandfold becomes a truth'.

Not that some real secrets do not exist, and they are jealously kept in the top inner circles. But 99.99% of lifelong martial artists will never hear of them. It has even led many quasi-top martial artists (7th/8th dan - more about the dan system and what it really represents later if you are interested) to believe "there are no secrets in martial arts but practice, practice, practice". True for most artists, and absolutely necessary before the "top ones" are told about some interesting stuff watched, experienced and analyzed by centuries of practice (= in real life or death situations such as war).

The last problem, in connection with the first one, is that most 'percussion oriental arts' do not really deliver the blows, such as in modern karate or kung fu (/wu shu), but stop them at a few centimeters of the targets. It might confuse such a martial artist in a real confontation insofar as he has no experience of real blows and how to take them, which can lead to disastrous consequences, physically and psychologically.
Same thing, to a lesser extent, for the blows if he does not train with a makiwara (punching board). Fortunately, most western styles and dojos have kept this excellent habit, which is superior to the traditional striking bag of boxe.

Can it be concluded that styles that really deliver blows are superior to 'restrained-blows' arts? Yes, in that they physically and psychologically get you used to receive blows. No, in that a blow delivered with gloves is not a real blow. It gives a good idea of what a blow is/feels like, but can also lead a fighter into dangerous delusion about the consequences of a real life strike, not to speak of the risks of wounding the fists. No, in the sense that closing one's hand into a fist might not be the best way of using it whatever a Westerner accustomed to "realistic" boxing may think.

The recent devellopment and study of fighting methods worldwide seem to have proven that 'real' blows styles were undoubtedly superior in fight to the former, such as in the K1 competitions, were Kickboxers and Thai Boxers have been reigning for a few years (I simplify).
However, a couple of months ago, a meeting between two teams of K1 fighters and Kyokushinkai karate fighters have shown the undeniable superioriy of the latter in both rule set confrontings.
Of course, one meeting does not prove everything, but one might wonder whether the combination of the realistic semi-contact/kick boxing method of Kyokushinkai karate with its more 'traditional' kihon-kata-kumite practice is not ahead on the way to realism and efficiency.

The sincere study of the real efficiency in a fight has been very seriously studied publicly for roughly 30 years, especially by the Westerners, who wanted to know once for all which method was the best and whether those oriental arts were serious or just fantasies. It seems most have been leaning towards the latter conclusion (which is good for our racial pride) although some bad surprises have happened now and then.

Now, another illusion had been develloped since the 60's among the martial arts world,

Kung-Fu is like an ascending spiral staircase, you can only see a few steps ahead of you. But, Bruce Lee, was thinking "upper body" and was not firmly grounded in his martial arts. This doesn't mean I could kick his ass, far from it, but I can pick out his weaknesses.

What Flavius Julianus is saying is the truth. Most fights are in the dark, drunk, and on a slippery surface. They last seconds. Train accordingly.

The Blond Beast
Thursday, November 11th, 2004, 11:39 PM
I'm partial to Shorin-Ryu.

Enotro
Friday, November 12th, 2004, 11:23 PM
most effective and less-ethical is IMHO Nin-jutsu.
About European Arts, there's a good knife art, I don't know the name, but is still practiced in Sicily by some old men. Maybe someone know that

Somebody can find this interesting:
In the ancient rituals of Italian local mob, there's the Tirata, a way to estabilish supremacy between young angry picciotti. Weapons are a knife and a mirror, one in each hand; the mirror is used to "blur the perception" of the enemy. The goal is not to kill, but to cut the other's face permanently to mark him as a loser. That's why in Italy we use to point a man as a gangster sliding the pointed thumb over the face, simulating a cut.

Wiskard
Sunday, December 26th, 2004, 08:47 PM
Hail to yours all.

maybe would be almost interested in the Science and Art of NOVA SCRIMIA.

www.novascrimia.com (http://www.novascrimia.com/)

A system of modern Self Defence, with ANY weapon and disarmed, of purely European, specifically from Italian Martial Tradition.

A little trailer of "battagliola", full contact fighting with non-lethal but 250g 90 cm long stick..

http://www.novascrimia.com/ois/filmati/L_001.mpeg

Valete Optime.


Wiskard

JohnKeppler
Monday, December 27th, 2004, 04:08 AM
Karate (Japanese Goju-Ryu), which I've done for 16 years, boxing - a relatively new passtime, and in case those don't do the trick, I usually carry a good knife, some peppper spray and a 45-calibur gun (thankfully the gun laws are lax where I live).

Phlegethon
Monday, December 27th, 2004, 03:17 PM
I did some boxing and wrestling (free style) in high school and 14 years of judo and jiu-jitsu till I switched to my own technique: Tunnelinyourface.

Wiskard
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 12:17 PM
Hail to you all!

Has anyone knowledge of some ETNIC own martial art in Europa?
Please write down infos and eventually web site address.

we don't remember our tremendous effectiveness and spiritual connection with European Way to God Mars, because of "cultural melting pot" of every aspect of the life.. that someone tried to bestow upon Europeans.

Valete Optime.

SiegUmJedenPreis
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Ninjitsu...definitly ninjitsu.

Ninjutsu ( 忍術 ), also called shinobi-jutsu ( 忍び術 ), is a collection of techniques originally practiced for espionage purposes. It includes methods of spying, confusing enemies, and gathering information. Ninjutsu can also involve training in disguise, escape, concealment, geography, meteorology, medicine, and explosives. Practitioners of ninjutsu have in the past been seen, at least in legend, as assassins for hire, and have been associated in the public imagination with other activities which are considered criminal by modern standards. Even though it was influenced by Chinese spying techniques, ninjutsu is believed by its adherents to be of Japanese origin.

Utgard-Loki
Saturday, January 1st, 2005, 04:02 AM
I did Wing Tsun for 2 years . I had one Free Fight Expirience with
a Jiu Jitsu pupil in the End i managed to hit him in the Face ( Both Fists
smashed from the Left to his Face) and his
Theeth were causing a lage wound in his Cheek, ( Fight over ).

For my Personal Enjoyment i do now train Aikiken ( Aikido with Swords ).
I like the Movements and Enjoy the Atmosphere. I also read
Eiji Yoshikawas Book about Miyamoto Musashi ( Japanes Samurai Fencer )
and its just great to learn the same Techniques that Historical Figures have actualy invented.

If i would met a heavier or greater Foe in a Real Life combat , i would try to
strike first . If the Situation calls for it i would use weapons.

@ Flavius Julianus : Do you have Expirience with Vital Points ? Clearly
a Punch in the Solarplexus will Hurt, so will a strike at the Throath, but what´s about the "cool Stuff" , for Example what Sean Connory does in
" Die Wiege der Sonne " ( stunning People with certain Atemi Techniques ).

Vespasian
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 01:44 AM
I have had experience in Wing Chun, some other kung fu style, combat grappeling, and Muay Thai. I also practice western style i.e. fencing, knife fighting, and drawing from concealed carry.

Oskorei
Thursday, January 20th, 2005, 12:44 AM
Hail to you all!

Has anyone knowledge of some ETNIC own martial art in Europa?
Please write down infos and eventually web site address.

we don't remember our tremendous effectiveness and spiritual connection with European Way to God Mars, because of "cultural melting pot" of every aspect of the life.. that someone tried to bestow upon Europeans.

Valete Optime.
Haven't tried this myself, but apparently there is an Icelandic form of wrestling called glima.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/glima.html

Seems to be more on Western Martial Arts here:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/westernarts.html

I'll try to find a good text on the old Norse Martial Art Stav (Staff) and translate it as well.

Lidvick
Wednesday, January 26th, 2005, 03:10 AM
I do kickboxing and if that doesn't work then I do crazy beserk frenzy attack, basically punching and attacking crazy psychotic sort of way it has work on some thugs in my neighborhood and after I threw them across on the concrete they got the message so I can't be that bad haha.


I have been in kickboxing for about 4 years.

I have been recently looking into Bojitsu practicing the Bo stick , since I happen to be a fan of learning the sword and such. The Bo stick is just about as efficient as a sword and you can use a basic walking stick in the same manor.

Call me old fashion but I love axes too hackin and all that.

I know this is a Martial Arts Forum but come on who doesn't like swords and axes? :D

Mjölnir
Wednesday, January 26th, 2005, 03:37 PM
All for me can i say i stay secure in Life...:D ;)

(edited by M.,):evil

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, January 29th, 2005, 08:38 AM
All for me can i say i stay secure in Life...:D ;)

This is just about perfect. What is lacking here? "2 long Bows"--so he even gets a workout!

Huzar
Friday, February 4th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Muay thay = powerfull, and adaptable to caucasian race

Jeet kune do = very pragmatic art. usefull for street fighting

BOXE = the most lethal western fight system
kung fu = fascinating

Polaris
Sunday, February 6th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Ninjitsu, Kendo, and Judo are some of the martial arts I admire. I took Karate for about a year but the teacher that I had happened to be one of the worst. After karate it was Kendo at a local dojo, I tried to join up but then I really didn't have the time to go to the classes. Then, after that I tried to privately practice Ninjitsu, which was very difficult. Some of the techniques were almost like a "pipe dream" and it took me about two months to perfect getting on my roof in under 15 seconds and stealth walking. :D

USS Dixiecrat
Monday, February 7th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I practice a form of fighting called "U pisso me offu, me knocku your teethu out" Yeah that was cheesy, but I always go for the knock out punch. I am a heavy hitter, and if I can't hit you, I will tackle you, and smash you into the nearest wall. Then I will sit on top of you and bash your face in.:D

shockgrrrl
Saturday, February 12th, 2005, 08:55 AM
I like various kinds of Kung Fu mostly. Plus Akido looks very interesting.

maria
Wednesday, February 23rd, 2005, 08:03 AM
I train Hapkido: Korean selfdefense; no rules - always referring to a real street-situation.

antifa-BERLIN
Saturday, May 28th, 2005, 03:38 PM
hapkido is the selfdefense art of tea-kwon-do, like tkd it isn´t effektive.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, May 29th, 2005, 12:16 AM
I practice a form of fighting called "U pisso me offu, me knocku your teethu out" Yeah that was cheesy, but I always go for the knock out punch. I am a heavy hitter, and if I can't hit you, I will tackle you, and smash you into the nearest wall. Then I will sit on top of you and bash your face in.:D

Yea, this is my worst nighmare. The guy who tells you he has a black belt and then wants to take his shoes off before fighting---I can't wait for those guys. Most real fighting isn't pretty and it usually ends quickly. I don't want to take heavy punches and I don't want to get hit with the other guy's opening move. Longer fights almost always end up on the ground.

Kaiser_Schutze
Sunday, May 29th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Kick Boxing.

Josep Conrad
Friday, June 17th, 2005, 11:21 PM
I spent four years practising karate (shotokan), till I watched a fill named Casino and a little man Joe Pesci using a pen as a knife against a fellow. I thought then I had been losing my time, the same kind of feeling when Indiana Jones met two guys withs swords and shoots them but guns are not allowed here but knives are. So I´ve been practising with a special knife fist intended to collect roots but with a sharp razor, this knife concealed could cause serious and mortal wound on a confident attacker who would not even feel the blade through his main artherias till late. Of course it is not always possible to carry a weapon on you and for most of us it is impossible to master techniques which carry long years of practice and self-sacrifice when there is food to put on the table but we still have our minds and our potentials and our wills not to be overcome, so think everytime about what is around you, what you could use as a weapon, if it would be effective or not, think, thought and will are our main weapons, think for a while how dazzled Goliath would feel about that little man David with the string in his hands. (No sensei ever come to teach him about it).

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, June 19th, 2005, 07:43 AM
I spent four years practising karate (shotokan), till I watched a fill named Casino and a little man Joe Pesci using a pen as a knife against a fellow. I thought then I had been losing my time, the same kind of feeling when Indiana Jones met two guys withs swords and shoots them but guns are not allowed here but knives are. So I´ve been practising with a special knife fist intended to collect roots but with a sharp razor, this knife concealed could cause serious and mortal wound on a confident attacker who would not even feel the blade through his main artherias till late. Of course it is not always possible to carry a weapon on you and for most of us it is impossible to master techniques which carry long years of practice and self-sacrifice when there is food to put on the table but we still have our minds and our potentials and our wills not to be overcome, so think everytime about what is around you, what you could use as a weapon, if it would be effective or not, think, thought and will are our main weapons, think for a while how dazzled Goliath would feel about that little man David with the string in his hands. (No sensei ever come to teach him about it).

Twice, people have pulled knives on me. Once, I went to the hospital since I didn't see the knife. The other time I waited until he put the knife down and then beat him to a pulp. The first time I leaned the hard way that if you attack with a knife you should never display the knife first. In fact, I later learned that the knife blade should be painted black so that it is harder to see. The problem with a knife is that your opponent may chose to pick up a weapon and any weapon with a longer reach--any bat or stick or metal construction rod, even a rock, has greater range than a knife and you lose. In the end, any weapon is only an extension of your body, your hand, even a gun, and so works best by surprise.

Todesritter
Sunday, June 19th, 2005, 10:03 AM
I find that most of the time strangers who wish to fight me can be turned aside by looking them sincerely in the eye and asking, 'Are you sure you want to do that? Most of the time they think didn't really want to do that after all.

That said, I have been learning some martial arts since I was about 5 years old. Both of my parents learned, trained and taught Shotokan, my father becoming and instructor and attaining his black belt.

After I started to become a big guy, and found that I was extremely durable, even for my size, I decided for philosophical reasons I wished to learn finesse, and unfortunately 'Big Guy-Fu' can still advance you in Shotokan without your really learning the things you are weakest at.

I studied many other things, and eventually gravitated toward JKD, Sambo, and finally Wing-Chun, which was developed, legend has it, buy a female monk, and of the arts it is said to make the most of it for a small person like a woman or a child and be the hardest for someone to really learn who is large and has learned to depend on strength. So now I learn to be subtle, and un-learn to be strong for sake of discipline; strong is good sensitive is stronger. Tai Chi can also be adapted nicely into a combat synergy with another fighting style, or on its own after 10 to 15 years of practice and application exercises.

I mostly don't need it though, I have worked as club security in the town I went to university in, and we were not supposed to hit the 'clients'. I found it was better to let them hit you; a man was angry that I grabbed his punch from the air when he was going to hit another customer he had called a homosexual. He wound up a hay-maker punch for my face, and I told him 'NO', but he went ahead and punched for my nose. So I let him, and bowed my head slightly, and his punch landed on my forehead, and he apparently broke his hand. The fellow was not a rocket scientist, and decided to throw the left exactly the same way, to the same effect in frustration. My skin on my forehead kinda itched a little bit.

Stupid people make me sad.:(


Twice, people have pulled knives on me. ... Agree: the knife fighter is very deadly, at least the skilled ones. If you do not know what your are doing, and are lucky enough to be faced with a stupid person with a knife, who shows you they have the blade, and don't have to fight them for some reason, run.

The most dangerous knife fighters have also mastered slight of hand, and can effectively fight like a boxer or kick-boxer, but as the blade is alternately invisible, or in left or right hand, you never know if the next punch is just a punch, or a knife stroke at your throat, or a clever feint with the blade positioned to slit your wrist as you try to protect where you think the punch/blade was aimed.

Huzar
Tuesday, June 21st, 2005, 06:39 AM
THAI martia arts, are the most lethal of the world, imo.

Polaris
Tuesday, June 21st, 2005, 07:32 AM
I have been reading about a military martial art developed for Chinese Law Enforcement called CQC. Supposedly the moves are VERY lethal. :D

Josep Conrad
Tuesday, June 21st, 2005, 11:21 PM
In any case I haven´t got the time to dedicate to martial arts, I can´t spent my working time on karate anymore and as a White-man I know I need some kind of self-defence, in a previous post I wrote about knive fighting but I was discouraged by the later opinions, in any case I would like to know if anyone could advise me something easy to learn , of course it is clear not to handle a gun.

Nightmare_Gbg
Monday, June 27th, 2005, 06:43 PM
The one i use the most is jujitsu.easy to use in cramped quarters.

Joermungand
Monday, June 27th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I did 8 years of Boxing , then i did about 50 Barenuckle fights , wich was really hard. Now i think im somekind of hardened. Really hard hitting and take some good punshes helps i think *G*

Fenris
Sunday, July 3rd, 2005, 05:36 AM
I did boxing and wrestling for a good long while, studied some karate (three different styles, including Goju-Ryu), Tae-Kwon-Do, found a guy who taught what he said was ninjutsu (looked authentic, guy really knew his stuff), but my all-time favourite is Muay Thai kickboxing, its savage and overpowering style is perfect for guys of large build and small build alike, and with myself being 6'3" and weighing 260lbs, it was the best style I've studied. I studied it under one of the 3 men responsible for bringing the style to the West in the 80s, Master Sken. Devastating style, with everything from kicks and punches to knees, headbutts, elbows and throws (albeit the latter are rather rudimentary).

I'd really like to try Aikido or Jujitsu though.

Sigurdr
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 02:01 PM
I like Take Won Do and Bushido("the way of the warriors")

Vespasian
Saturday, July 30th, 2005, 06:22 AM
The best and most efficient combination is boxing and catch-as-catch-can wrestling, covers all bases.

itsallaroundyou
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 01:48 PM
As soon as someone gets in close to you, or both opponents are on the ground, all your graceful, pretty karate moves are useless. Wrestling is THE most versatile and effective form of self-defense. It is by far the hardest to defend against.

Any fight I have been in against a non-wrestler has been ended quickly. Drop your level, shoot and go for a single or double leg take down will catch non-wrestlers off guard every time, ESPECIALLY if they are worrying about what kind of fancy spin kick to do next.

Successful UFC contenders are primarily wrestlers.

Vespasian
Wednesday, August 24th, 2005, 11:32 PM
I favor Muay Thai and Chin Na. However I think any fluid striking art (boxing, kick boxing, savate, or zipota as opposed to more ridge style like karate) should be supplimented with the grappling arts like wrestling.

Berserkin_Dwarf
Saturday, August 27th, 2005, 05:13 AM
I do re-enactments so I am proficent in medieval axe, spear and sword warfare. I used to be pretty proficecent in the fine art of back of the bar bare knuckle fightin.

bd


:otter

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, August 30th, 2005, 01:13 AM
As soon as someone gets in close to you, or both opponents are on the ground, all your graceful, pretty karate moves are useless. Wrestling is THE most versatile and effective form of self-defense. It is by far the hardest to defend against.

Any fight I have been in against a non-wrestler has been ended quickly. Drop your level, shoot and go for a single or double leg take down will catch non-wrestlers off guard every time, ESPECIALLY if they are worrying about what kind of fancy spin kick to do next.

Successful UFC contenders are primarily wrestlers.


Hence why grappling fighting arts are my preferences(that and boxing are best forms IMO). ;)

In fact some time ago, Grappling magazine had an article dedicated to this, how to defeat a martial-artist and especially their fancy kick moves.

MJOL
Tuesday, August 30th, 2005, 09:18 PM
I started by Kung-Fu when I was in my late teens, then went on to Nin-Jutsu and "Combat Nin-Jutsu"...to finally practise and teach a somewhat individualized form of what people call "self-defense"...

We have no more pre-arranged "attack/defense" scenarios, we try to learn all their is to learn about how the human mind deals with violence, combat psychology, adrenalin, body mechanics and their weaknesses, physical "codes" that reveal the imminence of violence, etc...

Many martial arts are just that, martial arts...their practise has many benefits, but you can only really "learn" how to fight in real fights, not on a tatami, the tatami is an illusion...

You can learn how to utilize your body and discipline it through the practise of martial art, but true violence can include edged or blunt weapons or "sucker punch" experts...what really counts is awareness and pre-emptive striking of the ennemy...the three SSS's...stealth, speed, surprise.

Most of my students have never lost a real fight because a lot of our training is based on correct "danger assessment" and deception of the ennemy... we learn to detect an imminent attack, then strike first... and if we can't, we train to strike only very few target areas (less than five) at high speed while deflecting the ennemy's attack...we always carry two long steel pens (legal and deadly)... very efficient against multiple attackers when utilized properly.

Kind of boring eh?...Ha!

Better to spend more time with one's family and friends and have fun amongst our folk than wander too often into places we know very well to be potentially dangerous, just my two cents....

If it can help somebody out, remember to always try to strike the eyes as a primary target and you will drop monsters...an aggressor almost always insults you or antagonizes you verbally before striking... that's the exact moment you choose to restore a healthy climate of peace to your environment:)

The goal is to win, not fight...you fight when you didn't react like you should have...when you made a mistake...there is no such thing as a fair fight, the only fair fights are the fights you win.

MJOL AC

Huzar
Thursday, September 8th, 2005, 01:15 PM
I started by Kung-Fu when I was in my late teens, then went on to Nin-Jutsu and "Combat Nin-Jutsu"...to finally practise and teach a somewhat individualized form of what people call "self-defense"...

We have no more pre-arranged "attack/defense" scenarios, we try to learn all their is to learn about how the human mind deals with violence, combat psychology, adrenalin, body mechanics and their weaknesses, physical "codes" that reveal the imminence of violence, etc...

Many martial arts are just that, martial arts...their practise has many benefits, but you can only really "learn" how to fight in real fights, not on a tatami, the tatami is an illusion...

You can learn how to utilize your body and discipline it through the practise of martial art, but true violence can include edged or blunt weapons or "sucker punch" experts...what really counts is awareness and pre-emptive striking of the ennemy...the three SSS's...stealth, speed, surprise.

Most of my students have never lost a real fight because a lot of our training is based on correct "danger assessment" and deception of the ennemy... we learn to detect an imminent attack, then strike first... and if we can't, we train to strike only very few target areas (less than five) at high speed while deflecting the ennemy's attack...we always carry two long steel pens (legal and deadly)... very efficient against multiple attackers when utilized properly.

Kind of boring eh?...Ha!

Better to spend more time with one's family and friends and have fun amongst our folk than wander too often into places we know very well to be potentially dangerous, just my two cents....

If it can help somebody out, remember to always try to strike the eyes as a primary target and you will drop monsters...an aggressor almost always insults you or antagonizes you verbally before striking... that's the exact moment you choose to restore a healthy climate of peace to your environment:)

The goal is to win, not fight...you fight when you didn't react like you should have...when you made a mistake...there is no such thing as a fair fight, the only fair fights are the fights you win.

MJOL AC


You're sage. I agree completely on every single point of your post

J.B. Basset
Friday, September 9th, 2005, 12:35 AM
I never had time to learn except how to use my hands and feet, my hands as fists to hit and my feet to flee in case...but I have learnt quite a lot reading this thread. Try to put some of these tricks when I go to the bar.;)

Fenris
Tuesday, September 13th, 2005, 04:40 AM
I've heard some stirrings about a "traditional old Norse martial art" by the name of Glima from a Swedish friend of mine, purportedly nothing to do with "Stav," the modern martial art based on Nordic mythology and religion.

Has anyone here heard of it? If so, what have you heard?

æþeling
Thursday, September 15th, 2005, 08:07 PM
From experience I have never favoured martial arts. I have been in enough situations to see that most practitioners would not stand much chance against an experienced street brawler.

Fenris
Friday, September 16th, 2005, 12:45 AM
From experience I have never favoured martial arts. I have been in enough situations to see that most practitioners would not stand much chance against an experienced street brawler.


I agree with regards to some of the flashier or more rigid styles like Tae Kwon Do or Shotokan Karate, but with regards to the arts that hit closer to home with regards to brawling, such as Muay Thai with its emphasis on the "short game" and clinches as well as being able to take a real punishing, and Aikido with its emphasis on using the momentum of your opponent against them and ways of combating multiple opponents, I'd have to disagree. A brawler, however experienced, is just that, a brawler, and while he's got a brute force and savagery advantage over rigid or showy styles, a skilled Thai Boxer or Aikido practitioner for example would have a wealth of knowledge on how to handle a less disciplined opponent.

To clarify a bit further:

Muay Thai literally breaks you down until you can't take any more, the main elements of training at first - and that persist throughout your studies - involve simply teaching you to take an absolute pounding without flinching, and then you get taught to dish it out right back, with close-range techniques that will leave an opponent with broken ribs at the very least, and a broken neck at the worst, as well as teaching techniques to keep an opponent OUT of clinching range. it's one of the quintessential "power" styles. It's difficult pointing out good examples of seeing Muay Thai used in fights without going outside Thai culture, but a great movie reference to see how much of a brawling style it is, check out the original, Thai cut of Ong Bak (the Western release cuts a lot up and manages to do a good job of ruining some of the grittier fight scenes).

Aikido is a "passive" style, specifically intended to be used against aggressive opponents who come in fists a-flailing. Sure, let the guy take a swing at you, you WANT him to hit you - or at least attempt to do so - because you know a dozen different ways of turning that punch into him flying face first into a brick wall, or turning his swing into an armlock that'll result in him getting a broken elbow. A great example of this kind of style is Steven Seagal. Actors have cited that fighting against him even in a choreographed scene is terrifying, because he really IS that fast. Now, while it's unlikely you're going to wind up as good as he, a few years studying Aikido and you'll be able to telegraph a haymaker and turn it into a broken arm without too much trouble.

There are other styles which are more brawl-oriented than others, such as the Russian "Systema," and from what I hear, Krav Maga too is a rather efficient style - though I've not had the opportunity to research either in great depth.

Anyone with more experience in such styles - or in general - please feel free to elaborate, confirm or point out flaws in my points.

Speaking from personal experience with regards to brawls however, I'll say this: A combination of wrestling and Muay Thai is the most efficient combination I've found from the styles I've studied for dealing with a fight, as more often than not it WILL end up at clinch range, so being able to rely on such close range maneuvers as rib-crushing knees and brow-splitting elbows, as well as knowing how to move on the ground and incapacitate your opponent while escaping from attempted incapacitation yourself, is of the utmost importance.

My advice: Fight dirty. Gouge the eyes, punch or crush the throat, pulverise the groin, strike under the arms in the sensitive rib areas, shove two fingers in his mouth and yank his head sideways by hooking your fingers in his cheek, try to break his elbows or knees or any other joint that's feasibly within range. Do what you can to fight and survive - you're no good to yourself or your folk if you're dead or crippled.

æþeling
Saturday, September 17th, 2005, 05:28 PM
I am a dirty fighter. I have to be. I am lith but muscular but I weigh only 9.5 stones. Not the best build for up close and personal. Which is an assumption that a lot of opponents I have faced have made. I like closer fighting styles as the aim is to end the fight as quick as possible with as little harm to yourself as possible.

:hveðrungur:
Wednesday, September 21st, 2005, 07:19 PM
Wrestling (folkstyle, freestyle and greco, ive done em all), Boxing, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are all combat arts ive had training in. Especially good in the wrestling and boxing, was wrestling from the age of 6 till about 17 competitively. IMHO it's always best to mix up tried and true fighting arts instead of following McDojo teachings.

maskedhate
Sunday, October 2nd, 2005, 07:25 AM
I practice Wing Tsun (EWTO) and I think it´s very effective...

Yes, i think WT is the most efective fighting system for street fights...

-The "chain punch" is a powerful and fast weapon, if you start hitting your oponent, then he is lost.

-The kicks aren`t complex at all.

-There are non defense, the atack is the defense, you will atack when your enemy enters in your range...

And more important..Military forces of many countries include it in their close combat training

Antonio
Saturday, October 8th, 2005, 03:58 AM
ill tell you waht... most fights end up on the ground... yes, a majority of the fights end up on the ground. Not only do I wrestle my opponent... but i also using grappling moves to take him down. I personally use a DROP STEP that basically you go for the legs and you take the person down. Sure... the person may sprawl, or cut the side of your face with a weak jab... but i myself have gotten into many fights... and each fight i get into ends up a wrestlign fight.

1 move the drop step is a good move... and if someone is pushing me away and backing up to avoid it, then i just grab an arm and JERK it towards me then NAIL the drop step.

I also like using the high-crotch, russian single, using angles... and even the old greco roman style HEAD THROW. Many different kind of takedowns... not only that, im experienced in using moves on the ground to pin my opponents.

Yea... you may be able to kick, sure you may punch real well, but a majority of all fights ends up on the ground... i assure you.

Absolut
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 10:07 AM
from the arts ive had experience with...

taekwondo, more or less useless, expecially on larger attackers, very fun to learn though

thai kickboxing, much more useful, fairly simple, lots of elbow and knee practice, very well rounded style

wingchun (doing this now) undisputed level of philosophy and simplicity, extremely effective and powerful if practiced properly, and understood

wrestling - no formal training, comes naturally, wrestled constantly throughout my entire school years :) so i guess you could say 12 years of wrestling :)

western boxing - underated, deadly on the streets

brazilian jujitsu - secret weapon, yet to learn any of this yet, but in the real world the last place you wanna be is on the floor i think, thats the easiest way for his mates to kick you in the back of the head or something (could get nasty)

Krabat
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 12:36 PM
As soon as someone gets in close to you, or both opponents are on the ground, all your graceful, pretty karate moves are useless. Wrestling is THE most versatile and effective form of self-defense. It is by far the hardest to defend against.

Any fight I have been in against a non-wrestler has been ended quickly. Drop your level, shoot and go for a single or double leg take down will catch non-wrestlers off guard every time, ESPECIALLY if they are worrying about what kind of fancy spin kick to do next.

Successful UFC contenders are primarily wrestlers.

I have done Karate in the past. but that does not mean that it is my faforite. You probably have got a point with the wrestling dough. Al this Karate stuff comes from Asia and wrestling generally from Europ, and Europ has had some great worriors in its history and schwingen a type of wrestling is a sport of Switzerland and the Swiss had some great battels against the Hapsburgers.

Nordraserei
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 01:16 AM
I prefer Aikido. One of the best Aikido fighters:
http://movies-by-actor.com/Steven_Seagal.jpg http://www.bubbygram.com/performers/ssegaldatx.jpg

svenskfinsk
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 12:56 PM
Been thinking either Muay Thai, Kickboxing or Kravmaga. What do you people think?

Maybe all three? :laugh:

ikki
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 02:06 PM
or just plain old boxing or wrestling. Those are martial arts too ;)

Death and the Sun
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 07:22 PM
Plain ol' boxing or Krav Maga are the most practical for self-defence purposes.

I think Savate or kickboxing are the most demanding from the fitness perspective.

Sigurd
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 07:29 PM
I'd not go for an Asian one. Go for any from our folk. Even if it be re-enactment.

perkele14
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 07:43 PM
Been thinking either Muay Thai, Kickboxing or Kravmaga. What do you people think?

Maybe all three? :laugh:

Muay Thai would most likely be the best option, "Krav Pengar" being the worst. ;)

Loki
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 07:50 PM
Stav (http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/stav.html) is the Northern folkish alternative of a 'martial art'.

Thobjorn
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 11:27 PM
kickboxing and that sort of thing is hard on the joint's. i dont see any problem with boxing, and greco-roman wrestling. :viking1:

svenskfinsk
Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005, 02:30 PM
or just plain old boxing or wrestling. Those are martial arts too ;)

Forgot those since everyone I talk to seems to be doing either muay thai, kravmaga or kickboxing. :P


Plain ol' boxing or Krav Maga are the most practical for self-defence purposes.

That's the impression I got too.


I think Savate or kickboxing are the most demanding from the fitness perspective.

All the better :beer-smil


I'd not go for an Asian one. Go for any from our folk. Even if it be re-enactment.


Stav (http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/stav.html) is the Northern folkish alternative of a 'martial art'.

I feel connected enough with our folk and ancestors already and I had in mind something more practical :) But that would be interesting to try out, if it's legit and available in Sweden.


Muay Thai would most likely be the best option, "Krav Pengar" being the worst. ;)

What do you mean by "krav pengar"? Do you think they try to rip people off their money? :icon1:


kickboxing and that sort of thing is hard on the joint's. i dont see any problem with boxing, and greco-roman wrestling. :viking1:

Wrestling seems to rely on body weight and I'm 184/75 kg so maybe that isn't the best for me heh.

PS: Admin, I would remove that hidious flag I got if I could. :redface:

Lundi
Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005, 03:34 PM
PS: Admin, I would remove that hidious flag I got if I could. :redface:

:thumb001: Done by lovely BW

perkele14
Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005, 07:04 PM
What do you mean by "krav pengar"? Do you think they try to rip people off their money? :icon1:


Krav Pengar?

Well, legend has it that it was developed by a blind Beirutian beggar, and the system
is based on continuous attacks on the opponents wallet. The name of the game is to
BS the opponent by marketing them created illusions of learned hand-to-hand combat.;)
(eternal thanks to Hollola :D )

Any similarity with Krav Maga (http://industrialgothic.com/safety/kravmaga.html) and a Israeli Grand-master here is purely coincidental.;) But seriously, I really wouldn´t call it a martial-art. Collection of under-belt techniques and eye-gouging yes, but I thought you wanted to get in shape as well... another link (http://www.muaythaionline.net/links/thaiboxing.html)

bocian
Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005, 07:23 PM
While on the topic of Martial Arts I thought I'd share a video clip of quite possibly the greatest MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) fighter of all time-- Fedor Emelianenko, undefeated with the exception of one stoppage due to a cut. If you're on a slow connection, I assure you it's worth the wait for the download. :)

He has beaten practically everyone there is to fight in the sport (Minotauro, Crocop, Coleman, Schilt, Arona, etc.), with the exclusion of the best fighters from the dung heap known as the UFC, which he would without a doubt destroy. :cool:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4609381522811996320

The fights are basically in chronological order, from his early days in the RINGS organization, to his latest bouts in Pride FC (Crocop fight not included). Neat soundtrack too, even if a bit cheesy. It gets really good from the halfway point.

As you can see, his success depends on his wide variety of skills and tactics-- great stand up, beautiful Judo/Sambo throws, superb 'ground & pound', excellent submission skills, and an uncanny ability (instinct if you will) to get out of trouble.

The above would also be my answer to the question-- a variety of stand up and ground fighting.

svenskfinsk
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 08:48 AM
:thumb001: Done by lovely BW

I concur. She very lovely! Feels good to be back with the flag of heroes! :P


Krav Pengar?

Well, legend has it that it was developed by a blind Beirutian beggar, and the system
is based on continuous attacks on the opponents wallet. The name of the game is to
BS the opponent by marketing them created illusions of learned hand-to-hand combat.;)
(eternal thanks to Hollola :D )

Any similarity with Krav Maga (http://industrialgothic.com/safety/kravmaga.html) and a Israeli Grand-master here is purely coincidental.;) But seriously, I really wouldn´t call it a martial-art. Collection of under-belt techniques and eye-gouging yes,

:D I hope the Finnish army units who are learning Krav Maga get good at "under-belt techniques and eye-gouging" then ;)


but I thought you wanted to get in shape as well... another link (http://www.muaythaionline.net/links/thaiboxing.html)

Fair enough. Why Muay Thai over kickboxing? :icon1:

Bocian: That was a nice video. Have you been able to train MMA yourself?

bocian
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 03:38 PM
Bocian: That was a nice video. Have you been able to train MMA yourself?

For a couple of years I actually did a lot of fighting, starting out by organizing boxing matches with my friends, then moving up to include wrestling and eventually MMA type fights, with these friends, and their friends, etc. Nothing too serious, but it was a lot of fun, though it resulted in a broken nose and fractured cheek bone. :) Though I would say I came out unscathed most times.

As for official training, I attended a Kung Fu academy for a short while, but it wasn't really my cup of tea, and after only a few lessons I quit. I also had a great book with various holds and techniques, which believe it or not actually tought me a great deal, I can't remember the name of the book though. Of course, actual experience fighting is the best training one can possibly get.

Commando
Wednesday, January 4th, 2006, 06:29 AM
i used to be a boxer some years ago,and i still working this.of course it is not a martial art,but for me, it is the best way to defence.
i prefer not to allow anyone come close to me,so i can take advantage of the technics of boxing...i believe that if i want to have any chance of ''winning'' i have to beat first,and if i have to beat first,i beat from distance.
also i have found very useful some grabs, that some friends of mine that are in police special forces have shown and taught me...

Ahren_
Wednesday, January 4th, 2006, 09:50 AM
i used to be a boxer some years ago,and i still working this.of course it is not a martial art,but for me, it is the best way to defence.
i prefer not to allow anyone come close to me,so i can take advantage of the technics of boxing...i believe that if i want to have any chance of ''winning'' i have to beat first,and if i have to beat first,i beat from distance.
also i have found very useful some grabs, that some friends of mine that are in police special forces have shown and taught me...

Yes I utilize boxing techniques as well. I have noticed when I fight experienced fighters, they either tend to rush me and take me down, or they will keep their distance and try to reek havoc on my face. This is where keeping your distance with an effective jab is key. Being very quick is important while keeping the gaurd loose and far enough from the face.

When I find myself in those uncomfortable close quarter situations, elbows really are the most effective way to disable the opponent. I Have been in few fights, 3 to be exact, and all I can say is when that fear hits you, fall back on some form of practice.

Wjatscheslaw
Friday, January 6th, 2006, 09:44 AM
I favour of dropping Atom-Bomb's, because they always hit their epicentrum.:rotfl

Ahren_
Friday, January 6th, 2006, 10:06 AM
I think the FurtzWaffen is also very useful.

nordic_canadian_male
Thursday, January 12th, 2006, 03:22 AM
I think no individual martial art is superior, but when you combine the most effective ones into a new fighting system much like the new mixed martial artists have done, then you have something complete. I'd combine boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and muay thai boxing, however I do believe boxing and wrestling are superior to the other two.

I wonder if anyone has any knowlegde of medievel fencing or sword and buckler fighting. These men refined their craft to such a degree that they achieved victory over much more numerous 'savages'. I've never read of this on this forum which isn't a good thing, this being an european forum.

Wjatscheslaw
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 08:59 PM
I think no individual martial art is superior, but when you combine the most effective ones into a new fighting system much like the new mixed martial artists have done, then you have something complete. I'd combine boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and muay thai boxing, however I do believe boxing and wrestling are superior to the other two.

I wonder if anyone has any knowlegde of medievel fencing or sword and buckler fighting. These men refined their craft to such a degree that they achieved victory over much more numerous 'savages'. I've never read of this on this forum which isn't a good thing, this being an european forum.

Effective&Silent ones.

But seriously saying,
1. The less restrition's an martial-art have, the more effective it will. Most freedom to act. Most freedom to win (esp. in real-Life ;) )
2. Boxing is good forever, Muay Thai have enough freedom, and possibly smth else.

Dr.Fausto
Thursday, February 9th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Hello! :D

I practice Tai chi chuan, Aikido , tae kwon do and others but i dont have a preference when figth in free style.

Every situation is different and requeriments are news in every case.

On the sites open and against a small oponent i prefer Tkd tecniques.

When the movements are restricted using Taichi maneouvers.:fnun:

My favorite tactic is run and hide to ambush.:P

So long and forgive my english!

æþeling
Wednesday, February 15th, 2006, 05:34 PM
Starting Friday I will begin practising Jujitsu.

Jack
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 01:12 AM
I did nine years of Shukokai Karate (I got my junior black belt at sixteen, then quit because it was repetitive), it was pretty good. Other than that, marksmanship is also a good sport :thumbup

At some point I wouldn't mind taking up boxing.

thunarsson
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 01:36 AM
My advice: Fight dirty. Gouge the eyes, punch or crush the throat, pulverise the groin, strike under the arms in the sensitive rib areas, shove two fingers in his mouth and yank his head sideways by hooking your fingers in his cheek, try to break his elbows or knees or any other joint that's feasibly within range. Do what you can to fight and survive - you're no good to yourself or your folk if you're dead or crippled.

This is the best advice I've heard on this thread. Fighting dirty might not be honorable but it has saved my life on many occasion's.:thumbup
PS-Master the preemptive headbutt it usually ends a fight before it starts!

Neophyte
Friday, May 26th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Traditional military H2H; aka. Defendo, Silent Killing, or "Englische Gangstermethoden". :D

Runenhammer
Sunday, May 28th, 2006, 10:01 PM
im learning "jun-fan kung-fu" myself so i think this is the best martial art.. :D

Eberhardt
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 04:34 PM
I tried Kenpo Karate a few years back because I wasn't as racially aware back then and actually preferred Asian influenced ways of life over Germanic, Celtic, etc. Northern European basically. Though after a while of taking that class I realized that by using simple street fighting techniques, or brawling, I could much more easily get out of the certain situations that were being practised. So what I like to do now is gather as many different fighting styles as I can from watching UFC or Pride FC.

When you drop the whole Asian martial art style you realize that real fights just don't play out as they do in the "dojo." Sure it's a good learning experience for young boys or girls, but I will always believe that a less refined or stylized fighting conquers the set martial art. A boxer that learns wrestling techniques from a peer for example is a much more well-rounded and capable fighter than the typical "Martial Artist."

None of this is meant to offend anyone who enjoys the Martial Arts. More power to you, but everyone is titled to an opinion.

Aistulf
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 05:42 PM
I do medieval sword fighting Huscarl style (viking broadsword) as a part of my early medieval re-enactment, don't know if it is seen as a martial art, but I personally see it as a martial art.
there are 2 types of styles of fighting in the viking re-enactment scene; Huscarl style where every part of the body is seen as a hit point and you need to be totally armoured.
Normal style (aka Jomsborg style) where you are not allowed to strike on head, neck, lower arm, lower leg and hands. This style is commonly used at re-enactment battles.

Utopian
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 10:36 PM
When you drop the whole Asian martial art style you realize that real fights just don't play out as they do in the "dojo." Sure it's a good learning experience for young boys or girls, but I will always believe that a less refined or stylized fighting conquers the set martial art. A boxer that learns wrestling techniques from a peer for example is a much more well-rounded and capable fighter than the typical "Martial Artist."



If a typical run-of-the-mill street fighting beat out the "martial artist" it would merely speak volumes of the lack of quality and skill of the "martial artist" in question. Anyone can box or wrestle or fight as a crazed mob would. But the true champion imposes his will on his opponent, on his own terms.

The martial arts are like books; they are tools which in the right hands are capable of producing something great and beyond the ordinary. But it requires a lot of work, dedication, and concentration, plus an almost superhuman will to realize anything close to their full potential.

Now just because a person went to some martial arts school ($) on the corner for a few years it doesn't by any means make him a martial artist. There are people who naturally belong to a warrior caste and then there are those who don't.

Pragmatiker
Wednesday, June 7th, 2006, 11:21 PM
I prefer the self defence based arts instead of the budo-sports things.

I do wing chun and fma. Wing chun cause I like it and fma (in my case a kali style) cause it contains everything, close combat, weapons, groundfighting,....

Other arts I would do if I had to change for some reason would be Krav Marga, Systema, JKD, BBT, and of course other FMA styles.

Milesian
Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Uisce Bheatha Bata Rince

wilde-jager.
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 04:20 AM
I study Jujutsu and the Germanic berserker philosophies, in an effort to reaffirm and augment my own natural fighting ability and will.

Samurai/Ninja are of course revered, so why not find out what they knew and learn it myself and--

The Berserkers were feared even among the Romans.

I believe that everything should have a second chance.

:D

SineNomine
Saturday, September 2nd, 2006, 12:48 PM
So far I've tried Wing Chun Kung Fu, and I liked what I saw. However, in the future I want to try out the Krav Maga (or perhaps Shaolin Kung Fu) and combine it with Aikido and the Bone Martial Arts (koto/gyokko ryu). The combination should be lethal. Anyone who is familiar with Tekken should know it as the basis of Nina's style too. :D It would involve a lot of time and practice though.

Veritas Æquitas
Saturday, September 2nd, 2006, 05:32 PM
I grew up learning Olympic Karate, but I prefer this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyxs9r73RLU) martial art.

Elgar
Wednesday, October 3rd, 2007, 09:42 PM
I trained in karate (Wado Ryu and Shukokai) for four years and I boxed for six months at university. Boxing's great fun and fantastic for self-defence, but a little bit rough for my liking - when sparring I'd almost always end up with an injury of some sort.

I'm now considering starting karate again and training at a local sambo club (Russian wrestling and mixed martial arts).

Fafner
Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 12:10 AM
Well, I've been lazy for a long time, so right now I'm doing nothing :p. But I used to do Muay Thai (aka Thai Box, but do not compare it with Kick Boxing, althought many people think it's the same :() but I had to stop for personal issues. However sometimes I practice at home. :)

Huzar
Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 08:39 PM
I trained in karate (Wado Ryu and Shukokai) for four years and I boxed for six months at university. Boxing's great fun and fantastic for self-defence, but a little bit rough for my liking - when sparring I'd almost always end up with an injury of some sort.

I'm now considering starting karate again and training at a local sambo club (Russian wrestling and mixed martial arts).



I practice BOXE actually.............yes there are many injuries in boxing. But it's natural. And that's the most important thing : you experiment ,on your body, what a REAL fight could be. Many Injuries.

However i understand your desire of something different form Boxe.........something of more refined.

In this case, my advice is : KYOKUSHIN ( as tyle of Karate). Is the MOST terrible Karate.........Full contact.

Beornulf
Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 08:42 PM
I tried Kyokushin recently, it's softened down from when my father and uncle did it. My uncle was Australasian champion (for his weight division I believe) at one stage.

I'm interested in finding something that's a little more European. What would be the best?

Elgar
Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I practice BOXE actually.............yes there are many injuries in boxing. But it's natural. And that's the most important thing : you experiment ,on your body, what a REAL fight could be. Many Injuries.

However i understand your desire of something different form Boxe.........something of more refined.

In this case, my advice is : KYOKUSHIN ( as tyle of Karate). Is the MOST terrible Karate.........Full contact.

I'm not really a fighter, despite living in a very rough area. Boxing is a very aggresive combat sport, and though I appreciate that it is an art, you're correct in thinking that I would like to persue something more refined.

There are no Kyokushin clubs locally, and thus I will endeavour to train in another style of karate - plus my objective is not to become a hardcase. Sambo is a European art (please note Beornulf), similar to Judo, though it also has stand-up techniques similar to kickboxing, this will be my fitness and self-defence training.

Huzar
Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 09:38 PM
I was going to propose THAI boxing..........but i see you're searching (both you) something more European.


Hmmm...........you see, there are MANY arts theoretically.......but often it's impossible since there isn't a club near you.....so i could suggest some others, but i don't know if it's a valid help.


SAVATE (french kickboxing. Refined, European and really valid).

Besides consider a thing : often a single art isn't usefull in all contests...some are valid on the "long distance" some other in the short distance. Some others in the groundfight (Brazilian JuJuitsu)

Matamoros
Friday, October 5th, 2007, 09:01 AM
I practiced Judo for a few years, but that was more of a grappling/throwing sport.

I'm interested in starting a martial art or boxing which is useful. When I say useful, I mean it would make me more likely to succeed in a fight. Any suggestions?

United Faith
Friday, October 5th, 2007, 09:04 AM
I practiced Judo for a few years, but that was more of a grappling/throwing sport.

I'm interested in starting a martial art or boxing which is useful. When I say useful, I mean it would make me more likely to succeed in a fight. Any suggestions?

Muay Thai/Thai Boxing.

Martial Arts is so fun. I practice Aikido, I have done a little of Krav Maga (which I will be starting again soon), Systema, a little Muay Thai and "street fighting".

Elgar
Friday, October 5th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I practiced Judo for a few years, but that was more of a grappling/throwing sport.

I'm interested in starting a martial art or boxing which is useful. When I say useful, I mean it would make me more likely to succeed in a fight. Any suggestions?

I remember reading one of Geoff Thompson's articles (he's the consummate martial artist) and he was asked 'if you could practice one art what would it be?', he replied that for self-defence purposes, it would be boxing. However he elaborated that he would never train in just one art and said that the second art he'd practice would be judo and the third Muay Thai.

I have read his biography and he's had hundreds of fights and is a proper headcase, however he has found God and is now a decent bloke - www.geoffthompson.com - though a little strange and even sanctimonious. He's now trying to produce films.

Here's a free ten minute drama of his called The Bouncer:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=18486896

Matamoros
Sunday, October 7th, 2007, 01:32 AM
Thanks for the replies United Faith and Sir Elgar. I'm going to check out places in my area and see which courses they offer. :)

housecarl
Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:18 AM
I practice Boxing and MMA. Both are great they keep you in excellent condition and prepared for any type of trouble you may encounter.

Cuchulain
Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 01:03 AM
I spend 10-12 hours a week practicing with my lightsaber while blindfolded, and can shoot lethal energy beams from my fingertips.

Huzar
Friday, October 19th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I practice Boxing and MMA. Both are great they keep you in excellent condition and prepared for any type of trouble you may encounter.


Igreed.

Boxing plus Muay Thai (and Kyokushin Karate) is the best combination.

i'd add Bjj (Brazilian Ju Jutsu) for the groundfight. Very important in the street fight.

Elgar
Sunday, October 21st, 2007, 09:44 AM
I practice Boxing and MMA. Both are great they keep you in excellent condition and prepared for any type of trouble you may encounter.

Boxing's certainly handy for a fight and MMA (if it includes wrestling and kicking) is also very good, I'm sure you know how to look after yourself.

There's a sambo/MMA club in Glasgow...I think I should go along.

United Faith
Sunday, October 21st, 2007, 10:12 AM
Boxing's certainly handy for a fight and MMA (if it includes wrestling and kicking) is also very good, I'm sure you know how to look after yourself.

There's a sambo/MMA club in Glasgow...I think I should go along.

The problem I find with people who practice Boxing and/or MMA is that they concentrate on the upper parts of the body. They never watch their legs. This makes it very easy to beat them.

But you know... better than nothing. :p

ChaosLord
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 10:31 PM
I've done Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, and Jujitsu.

gebo-wunjo
Sunday, August 22nd, 2010, 02:17 AM
I like qi-gong - the soft variety. I am not interested in the hard type.Too much physical content with others. Last teacher was a perv, so I quit... long story. I will eventually find a decent teacher.

Sindig_og_stoisk
Sunday, August 22nd, 2010, 09:34 AM
I practice Krav Maga. It is arguably the most straight-forward and efficient way of learning how to defend yourself in a realistic fight.