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WotansVolk
Tuesday, September 21st, 2004, 03:52 AM
Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" - the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say. "There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2 500 years ago. But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking. Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula. "What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older... 6 000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters. He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added. But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.


Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw1094736421617B264

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, September 21st, 2004, 04:12 AM
I don't know what this guy is talking about. The Celts came from the Iberian peninsula in several waves. This DNA work doesn't throw any new light on anything.

Awar
Tuesday, September 21st, 2004, 04:40 AM
There's a whole 'nuther thread here on the same article.

Milesian
Tuesday, September 21st, 2004, 10:56 AM
The answer is simple.

The Irish, Scots and Welsh are certainly Celts.
Celtic is an ethno-liguistic term. They all speak Celtic languages and still retain Celtic customs. Therefore there can be no argument that they are Celts.

The Celts themselves were not a homogenous people, but a culture that spread from Denmark to Iberia and the Atlantic ocean to the Black Sea.
There are no "Celtic genes", so a genetic survey is meaningless.
Considering that the Celts were present in Iberia and migrated from there to the British Isles in one of their waves as the good doctor said above, genetic similarities are hardly suprising ;)

Awar
Tuesday, September 21st, 2004, 07:03 PM
Yes, I agree with what Milesian said.
For any modern ethno-linguistic family, the origins are in some
small group of people, a relatively small population, so,
genetically 99% of any people are not original Germanics, Slavs, Celts, etc.

Rex
Tuesday, September 28th, 2004, 01:01 AM
In this scottish journal you can read the article :


"We are not Celts at all but Galicians" :D


http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html

Newgrange
Tuesday, September 28th, 2004, 01:15 AM
Genes link Celts to Basques (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm)

Milesian
Tuesday, September 28th, 2004, 06:39 PM
Genes link Celts to Basques (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm)


Yup, as mentioned previously, there are genetic links between Iberian and the Celts of Britain and Ireland that is likely of Paleolithic origin.
This doesn't mean none of them were Celts (there were Celts and Celt-Iberians in Iberia too), it just means that the Celts at the very least did not eridicate the pre-Celtic populations but rather interbred with them.

Euclides
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 03:34 AM
Some Irish, some Scots and Welsh are Celts linguistically and culturally.But they are not celts in therms of race. They are genetically a pre celtic population related to Iberian Peninsula (and maybe North Africa ) from paleolithic origins.They were ''Celtized'' by Celtic Invaders from central Europe during the Bronze Age. They were the ''ulke-mediterraneans'' and probably spoke a language similar to modern basque, like the ancient Iberians ( before the IE invasions - Celtics , Romans and Germans ). An ancient scandinavian population can be also related to this old mediterranean spread.


I agree with the concept that in the most part of history the Celts were not a homogenous people, but a culture.The original celts were a probably fair group derived from the Battle-Axe people who mixed with many other groups during their conquers.

Milesian
Thursday, September 30th, 2004, 09:29 AM
Some Irish, some Scots and Welsh are Celts linguistically and culturally.But they are not celts in therms of race.

As far as I'm aware there was never a Celtic "Race", but rather a Celtic culture. It's homelands according to archaeology are along Switzerland, Austria, south western France and southern Germany. It may have appeared amongst Alpine peoples as likely as by some Battle Axe group.



They are genetically a pre celtic population related to Iberian Peninsula (and maybe North Africa ) from paleolithic origins.They were ''Celtized'' by Celtic Invaders from central Europe during the Bronze Age. They were the ''ulke-mediterraneans'' and probably spoke a language similar to modern basque, like the ancient Iberians ( before the IE invasions - Celtics , Romans and Germans ). An ancient scandinavian population can be also related to this old mediterranean spread.


I agree with the concept that in the most part of history the Celts were not a homogenous people, but a culture.The original celts were a probably fair group derived from the Battle-Axe people who mixed with many other groups during their conquers.

Euclides, is there anyway we can say for sure that Celts did not set foot in Britain or Ireland? There is historical documentation of a Celtic migration into Iberia as well as migrations into Britain and Ireland from there. Do you believe these accounts to be wrong? As there are no genetic markers for a heterogenous people such as the Celts, would I be correct in saying that we cannot use genetics to say one way or another that Celts did / did not migrate into these lands? Also, these markers are present in general (particulary Connaught) but not universal. Even moving from western Ireland to eastern Ireland we find it's prevalence declines.

I recently read that the Bell Beaker people also did not migrate to the British Isles and Ireland but merely their culture. There are also those who say that no Anglo-Saxons migrated to Britain either.
I'm growing skeptical that soon we will be asked to accept that no peoples migrated anywhere and everything is merely a product of cultural diffusion.

Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if a single Indo-European never set foot in the isles, but I just find it hard to believe that the historical acounts are wrong, that cultures and languages spread so far without a single Celt setting foot anywhere near the place and different phenotypes appeared without migrating peoples carrying them.

If the Celts inter-bred with pre-Celtic population, would it not be expected that Megalithic markers were still retained anyway? As we don't know what the genetics of the original Celts were (assuming they were even homogenous) then isn't it merely speculative to say they did or didn't migrate here or there as there is no plausible way to test that hypothesis genetically?

Newgrange
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:57 AM
The Iberian phenotype in Ireland and Scotland that we are talking about here can be seen in these pictures

http://www.celtic-paradise.co.uk/ImageGallery/uploads/FamousSuppoters/BillyConnelly.JPG http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/toby/billy_connelly/images/billy150.jpg Scottish comedian Billy Connelly
http://cine.eldiariomontanes.es/datos/protagonistas/fotos/protagonista151102_1.jpgIrish actor Stephen Rea
http://dudes.super-site-1.com/male-pics/josh-groban/josh-groban-005.jpg Irish-American singer Josh Groban
http://wborangecounty.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/cast3.jpg Irish-American actor Peter Gallagher
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/entertainment/0111/harrison.quotes/images/bob.geldof.jpg Irish singer Bob Geldof

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 01:36 AM
Actually, it's not only the darker types that have arrived from Iberia.... I think MOST Irish arrived from there some thousands of years ago.

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 09:59 AM
Rea and Gallagher look more like brunette Nordids to me.
Groban looks as if he may possibly be mixed with something else.
Geldof looks like Paleo-Atlantid (who are indeed connected to Berids in Iberia as well as Tydals in Scandinavia)
Connolly I think is probably Brunn (especially when seen in his younger days)

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 10:01 AM
Actually, it's not only the darker types that have arrived from Iberia.... I think MOST Irish arrived from there some thousands of years ago.

The Atlantids (Megalithic)and Bell Beakers (Bronze Age) probably did, and the Gaels (Iron Age) likely did as well.
The pre-Gaelic Celts, that is the Brythonic tribes, likely arrived from France and the Low Countries.

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 10:27 AM
Sure, but, if you go back to past long enough, you see that all R1b lineages come from a
small group of people from Iberia.

Hibernian ;)

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 10:33 AM
Sure, but, if you go back to past long enough, you see that all R1b lineages come from a
small group of people from Iberia.

Hibernian ;)

I'm sold :P
Still waiting for my first issue of Zoophiliac Hunter though ;)

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 10:57 AM
I can't start with the distribution. Some zoophile organizations ( FPETA, Shave the Whales ) complained against my organization.
I was sued by the Roma Catlick church. ;) :D

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 11:35 AM
What about the Ortho-Ox Church? :)

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 11:48 AM
The Ortho-ox church of zoophilia is currently celebrating the day of St.BoyGeorge, the dragonrapist. :D

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:19 PM
:rofl

Is there no end to their degeneracy? :D

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 12:45 PM
It seems to me (by observation only) that indeed there are paleo-atlantid or atlanto-mediterranean (as you wish to call it) types strikingly similar in both the Iberian Peninsula and Ireland though one characteristic is absent in the Ib. Peninsula: red hair. I think (only aplying logic here) that perhaps the red hair is a "nordic" trait which the irish have since there were waves of invasion/settling there that did not happened in Iberia.
Furthermore, alot of Iberians (Portuguese, Spanish and Basques) have the same traits common to the irish people, specifically hair colour, eye colour, complexion and shape, exception made perhaps when it comes to tolerance to high dosage of beer ;) (we are more adept at wine, mind you)...

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 01:47 PM
Yeah, not sure about red hair.
It's certainly not as prevalent in Iberia.

The ancient Gaelic tales speak often of blonde haired individuals, so I think we can say that blonde hair was present at least with the Celts and possibly before then. Not sure about red hair though.
Interestingly Tacitus recordes the Caledonii tribe of Scotland having red hair during the Roman occupation of Britain. Also interesting is that Tacitus believes this "proclaims a Germanic origin", which would lead one to believe that red hair was something Tacitus had previously encountered with the Germanic tribes of the continent and thus equated with them.
Perhaps it is a trait brought with the Celts or maybe even a UP trait

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:03 PM
I think it's an UP trait.

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:14 PM
Would you please elaborate on that? I've yet to see a complete thread/article about the different timetables of Europe, I mean, a correct explanation of the different historical period of Europe and the invasions/colonizations that occured. I know that some traits are related to the Upper Paleolitic, but which? And the people who existed there before the Paleolitic, which traits did they have?
Is the Long Barrow stock UP or what? Etc, Etc, etc....
Perhaps you guys/gals could shed some light into that...
Thanks in advance

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:18 PM
Do you mean a timeline for a specific region or for the whole of Europe.
As for the long-barrow people, I think they were a Neolithic people (who constructed the passage tombs) and were likely Atlantid in phenotype

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:24 PM
A complete timeline for the whole of Europe. I mean, it's simple to put things in term of "you look paleo-atlantid" but how to explain which stocks created that subrace and when did they originated, etc...
Kinda like a Beginner's Guide to Physical Anthropology...

Cheers ;)

Johannes de León
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:26 PM
Well, as for the red head, it's not a major trait around here for sure. However i have been noticing especially redheads in these latter days. To my surprise, I've spotted at least three different redheads on a daily basis, they were natural redheads, unless they have dyed their eyebrows too. This is far more than what I've expected.

I'm thinking on starting a survey, asking every redhead i find on the street about their ancestry. :)

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:33 PM
The pre-palaeolithic people were not 'people' since the palaeolithic age goes back before the time of homo sapiens. There were probably some Neanderthals, homo Erectus...etc.

btw. when someone speaks of UP's thats just talk about a robust, large-headed, large boned type found in Europe. It resembles the skeletons found from the upper palaeolithic era. It doesn't mean that there were no gracile Europeans who are of palaeolithic stock ( as opposed to Neolithic, used to label those who came 12.000-8000 years ago from the Middle East ).

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:00 PM
...
btw. when someone speaks of UP's thats just talk about a robust, large-headed, large boned type found in Europe. It resembles the skeletons found from the upper palaeolithic era. It doesn't mean that there were no gracile Europeans who are of palaeolithic stock ( as opposed to Neolithic, used to label those who came 12.000-8000 years ago from the Middle East ).
Therefore you (AWAR) have "typical" UP traits, right? At least you look like that description.

Then the neolithic stock were invaders from the east as opposed to the indigenous to europe UP stock?

Milesian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:03 PM
Yes, the Neolithic people were farmers and brought agriculture to Europe.
The previous UP people were hunter-gatherers whose diet was from hunting, fishing and foraging

Gil
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:15 PM
Then can we identify the IE peoples (indo european) with the Neolithic cultures? Or were the indo-european invasions later?

Awar
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 06:46 PM
There's some speculation about that.
The earliest date officially put on IE languages in Europe is 4000 years ago.
The Neolithic expansion was some 12.000 to 8000 years ago ( depending on the source ).

IMO, the IE languages did come with Neolithics. That's my opinion because the most archaic form of IE was found in Anatolia, and it was a Centum branch IE language.
The Centum branch once was more widespread inside Europe, but it was later pushed more into the west by the Slavic expansion ( Satem IE ).

Satem IE is considered a slightly newer form, and it's the language of ancient Thracians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Balts and even Sanskrit is Satem, so
I think it's safe to asume that the first expansions of Satem IE were closely related to Aryans, while Centum expansion into western Europe can be attributed to the people who later separated into Celts, Itals, Illyrians.

Euclides
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 08:26 PM
I think it's an UP trait.


In fact, it´s an UP trait. There are 6 knowed mutations for red hair, and one of them is very common in British Islands.It´s possible that in the past we had two UP populations living in Brithis Islands : The first were the ''paleo-meds'' or ''ulke-meds'' , they are related to modern basques and the expansion of a group from the northern Spain refuge after the LGM ( Last Glacial Maximum ) that entered Iberian Peninsula, British Islands and also Scandinavia. They spoke a language similar to modern basque. The second group, aslo a cro-magnon derived is related to N-central Europe and the fair Brünn race. It´s possible that this two groups were living togheter in BI before the IE invasions, andf we can link the Red hair to this Brunn race.

But we also know that Red hair was present among the Germanic and Celtic tribes tribes of the continent : both IE groups that mixed with the autocnous Brünn race in Central Europe .So the Red Hair in BI can be related also to IE invasions ( Celts ) that bought the diluted Brünn element .Yeasr later this trait became common through genetic drift, isolation and sexual selection.

In resumen :Red hair is a UP trait that in BI can be related to pre-celtic populations, Celtics , or both.

Euclides
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 08:48 PM
If the Celts inter-bred with pre-Celtic population, would it not be expected that Megalithic markers were still retained anyway? As we don't know what the genetics of the original Celts were (assuming they were even homogenous) then isn't it merely speculative to say they did or didn't migrate here or there as there is no plausible way to test that hypothesis genetically?


Megalithics were just a small elite of agriculturalists with probably Iberian origins . According with Cavalli-Sforza their genetic markers were not found (yet), probably because they were a small population or because they were nor genetically different from others. Maybe Megalithics were paleo-meds who adopted the agriculture by Neolithic influence.

Euclides
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 09:21 PM
As far as I'm aware there was never a Celtic "Race", but rather a Celtic culture. It's homelands according to archaeology are along Switzerland, Austria, south western France and southern Germany. It may have appeared amongst Alpine peoples as likely as by some Battle Axe group.


Is difficult to talk about a Celtic race, also because their mixed a lot during their spread. In fact Celtic culture originated along central europe, the alpine region . Broca considered the Celtic race as the synonym of Alpine race , but C.Coon considered original celts as being nordic. Maybe central european celts were a mixed population of alpines conquered by a fair-Battle-Axe group who impose them the IE language. The celts who migrated to BI were also probably mixed.

Newgrange
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 10:22 PM
Rea and Gallagher look more like brunette Nordids to me.
Groban looks as if he may possibly be mixed with something else.
Geldof looks like Paleo-Atlantid (who are indeed connected to Berids in Iberia as well as Tydals in Scandinavia)
Connolly I think is probably Brunn (especially when seen in his younger days)I'm just assuming Groban is Irish American based on his surname,I do not know his complete ethinc background, the same with Gallagher.

Euclides
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 11:23 PM
-----------------------------------------------

Vitor
Saturday, October 2nd, 2004, 11:48 PM
that is not the typical basque I guess...
when I say not typical I mean that!

Newgrange
Sunday, October 3rd, 2004, 12:59 AM
I changed previous post because picture was not displaying correctly.
I was not implying that I thinlk she represents the phenotype of the Basque population.

cruhmann
Saturday, October 16th, 2004, 03:24 AM
People who live in the Celtic- and formerly Celtic speaking regions of the British Isles, as well as Central Europeans from areas settled by the Celts in ancient times, vary considerably from place to place. This is due to the fact that wherever Celts settled in Europe they found and mixed with other races who were already there. The first Celts were likely either Danubian or Battle-ax in racial type, and then Hallstatt Nordic, after these two races mixed with each other somewhere in central or eastern Europe. The area in which this mixture took place was probably not very large, and as they spead from this area to the north, south and west they encountered all kinds of other races (Alpine, Bell-Beaker, Med, probably other Battle-ax people and Danubians, etc.). They mixed with these various types, and in some areas of central Europe a distinct type arose which many taxonomists call the Keltic Nordic subtype. This type was predominantly Hallstatt Nordic, but with a large admixture of Apine and Bell-Beaker, and lesser mixture of Med, Berid, etc. This type became dominant in some parts of the Rhineland, the southern Netherlands, Belgium and northern France, especially in the river valley areas. In the more mountainous regions, the non-Nordic types were more dominant. Coon believed that there were some Borreby and Battle-Ax elements involved in the formation of the Keltic type, and that may be true, especially in the regions mentioned above. However, that was probably not true for the Keltic Nordics of Switzerland and Austria noted by McCulloch. As a portion of these Kelts moved into the British Isles, they encountered a significant number of people already there, and these people belonged to several Mediterranean subtypes, including the taller Atlanto-Meditteranean type, as well as some pre-Meditteranean brunette types. They also found in some parts of northern England and Scotland small pockets of Zoned-Beaker peoples (Borreby + Battleax + Bell-Beaker) who had come from the Netherlands and/or western Germany through the Netherlands. As they pushed into Ireland, especially in the western part, these Celts came into contact with large-headed, heavy-set Brunn-like types and mixed with them too. You can see then, that the term "Celt" or "Keltic", when used as an ethnological term, refers to a people who are as varied as the Slavs or Germanics. When used as a racial term, it generally refers to a Nordic subtype to which a number of the early central European Celts belonged, and this type is to some extent preserved today in certain areas of southwest Germany, northern Switzerland, southern and central Netherlands, and here and there in Belgium and northern France. It also occurs frequently in western England, Wales, southwest Scotland and eastern Ireland, both in a relatively unaltered form, as well as strongly mixed with both pre-Celtic and post-Celtic (Germanic) elements.

Euclides
Saturday, October 23rd, 2004, 09:16 PM
'' What seems clear is that neither the mtDNA pattern
nor that of the Y-chromosome markers supports a substantially
central European Iron Age origin for most
Celtic speakers—or former Celtic speakers—of the Atlantic
facade. The affinities of the areas where Celtic
languages are spoken, or were formerly spoken, are generally
with other regions in the Atlantic zone, from
northern Spain to northern Britain. Although some level
of Iron Age immigration into Britain and Ireland could
probably never be ruled out by the use of modern genetic
data, these results point toward a distinctive Atlantic
genetic heritage with roots in the processes at the end
of the last Ice Age.''

source : ''The Longue Dure´e of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe''
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75:000–000, 2004

Katera
Friday, October 29th, 2004, 04:23 PM
The Ortho-ox church of zoophilia is currently celebrating the day of St.BoyGeorge, the dragonrapist. :D
O jebote! Ti, matere mi, nisi normalan! :lol:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

Euclides
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 12:51 AM
-----------------------------------------------



''This supports the view that the change from
bronze to iron and the introduction of Celtic material culture
into the British Isles did not involve a significant intrusion
of peoples (Laing and Laing 1990; Raftery 1994). ''

Milesian
Sunday, October 31st, 2004, 01:01 AM
''This supports the view that the change from
bronze to iron and the introduction of Celtic material culture
into the British Isles did not involve a significant intrusion
of peoples (Laing and Laing 1990; Raftery 1994). ''


Does Paleolithic genetic markers rule out the possibility of Celtic genetic input? Is Central european genetics exactly the same as it was 2500 years ago?

Germaniathane
Saturday, May 13th, 2017, 03:33 AM
Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" - the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say. "There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2 500 years ago. But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking. Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula. "What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older... 6 000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters. He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added. But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.


Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw1094736421617B264

Wrong!Wrong! Irish, Welsh, Scottish are all Celts predominantly descended from Indo-European speakers who brought Celtic languages to the Isles via Central Europe during the Bronze Age. The most common Y-DNA in Ireland, Wales and Highland Scotland is the R1b-L21/S145 (Atlantic Celtic branch).

Indo-European
Wednesday, July 26th, 2017, 03:00 AM
Wrong!Wrong! Irish, Welsh, Scottish are all Celts predominantly descended from Indo-European speakers who brought Celtic languages to the Isles via Central Europe during the Bronze Age. The most common Y-DNA in Ireland, Wales and Highland Scotland is the R1b-L21/S145 (Atlantic Celtic branch).

I have read the same recently. R1b (along with R1a) is now believed to have spread from the Russian Steppe in the Bronze Age with the Indo-Europeans (or Proto-Indo-Europeans) who migrated across Europe. The reason Basques now have such a high incidence of the Proto-Celtic R1b-P312 is due to Proto-Celts who likely conquered the ancient people in the modern day Basque regions. Basque mtDNA has higher frequencies of Mesolithic and Neolithic lineages which could explain why they retained their non-Indo-European Basque language. And in any event, R1b-L21 is not so common among Basque men. The Atlantic Celts are a different branch of R1b.