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Evolved
Thursday, September 9th, 2004, 07:53 AM
70 photo plates from 1878-1880, mostly of the Chukchi, here (http://www.grm.se/nordost/hemexp/album/foto1.htm), from a Swedish Arctic expedition. They have different types, some resemble South American natives while others look Mongolian. A few of the women look fair skinned, though it is hard to tell in black & white photos. Most of them have a typical dark, leathery skin.

http://www.grm.se/nordost/hemexp/images/kvapal44.jpg
http://www.grm.se/nordost/hemexp/images/kvapal47.jpg

One of my wacky, Cosmo-like ™ theories is that Mongoloids & Uralics are evolved and very specialized for cold climate, Negroids are evolved and very specialized for the hot climates, but Caucasoids take an intermediate position, and are not too specialized. And this is one of the reasons why Caucasoids are the most successful travellers and settlers of diverse climates. :)

Allenson
Thursday, September 9th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Wow. Look at the profile on this most interesting anthropological specimen. :-O

He reminds me of a picture that Coon had in his "The Living Races of Man" of a Tungus man.

Tungus info:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/T/Tungus.asp




Cool pic:

http://home.hetnet.nl/~bwijnandts/page_4_bestanden/yukaghir.jpg

A good pic for lg:

http://www.koryaks.net/images/armor.jpeg

Awar
Thursday, September 9th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Paleo-Mongoloids huh?

Milesian
Thursday, September 9th, 2004, 03:46 PM
That first pic should be the image dictionary definition of "Prognathism" :)

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, September 10th, 2004, 06:31 AM
Some say the Chukchi are the most cold adapted people in the world. Coon thought Caucasoids were adapted to dry weather, at least one dry season and that is why we have our noses. Nords are also adapted to reduced solar radiation and possibly cold. Mongoloids appear to be the most adaptable since they range from the Arctic to Monsoon Tropics--even the Equatorial Tropics if you count Singapore.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, October 11th, 2004, 05:10 PM
Some say the Chukchi are the most cold adapted people in the world. Coon thought Caucasoids were adapted to dry weather, at least one dry season and that is why we have our noses. Nords are also adapted to reduced solar radiation and possibly cold. Mongoloids appear to be the most adaptable since they range from the Arctic to Monsoon Tropics--even the Equatorial Tropics if you count Singapore.

At present, its not known wether Mongoloid features are cold adaptations. Dentally the north-east Asians and Americans seem to emerge from within south-east Asians, according to Oppenheimer so that the Jomon, the Ainu and the southern Siberians have a relationship with south-east Asians but also with western Eurasians and North Africans, in other words the mongoloid dentition seems to have moved north and the process was gradual. Suzuki also finds that north-east Asians are descended from the Upper Cave race, through the Neolithic North Chinese, while the southern Mongoloids are descended from the Liujiang race through the Neolithic populations of Southern China and northern Indo-China, and they grade into each other, because of the lack of a boundary (like the Sahara) to seperate the northern and southern East Asian moderns.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, October 12th, 2004, 10:28 PM
At present, its not known wether Mongoloid features are cold adaptations. Dentally the north-east Asians and Americans seem to emerge from within south-east Asians, according to Oppenheimer so that the Jomon, the Ainu and the southern Siberians have a relationship with south-east Asians but also with western Eurasians and North Africans, in other words the mongoloid dentition seems to have moved north and the process was gradual. Suzuki also finds that north-east Asians are descended from the Upper Cave race, through the Neolithic North Chinese, while the southern Mongoloids are descended from the Liujiang race through the Neolithic populations of Southern China and northern Indo-China, and they grade into each other, because of the lack of a boundary (like the Sahara) to seperate the northern and southern East Asian moderns.

But several finds in Laos preclude Mongoloid presence in South-East Asia before the mesolithic, when as by drops primitive Mongoloids(strangely lacking canine fossae and with low orbits) moved further south in a territory in possession by Negritos and Australoids(here, their traits show a softer structure and more rounded in form).
In the early neolithic seemingly the Negritos weren't completely overthrown by the newcomers, but composite types, morphologically more aptly attached to modern Mongoloids.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 13th, 2004, 08:07 PM
At present, its not known wether Mongoloid features are cold adaptations.

Maybe we cannot be absolutely sure at the moment, but everything speaks for a cold adaptation, because so many features are not advantageous, not even neutral without thinking about their advantage in a cold environment.

I always said their was a basic, primitive strata of sapiens in Asia which was gradually replaced by Mongolids in the narrower sense.
Indians f.e. were to me never typical Mongolids, but rather people who fled because of the Mongolid pressure.

It sounds just logical that the highly selected and specialized core of the Mongolids (Sinid+Tungid) has even genetical differences compared to people less selected and still more defined by the older Homo sapiens strata both genetically and in their appearance.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, October 13th, 2004, 08:36 PM
I always said their was a basic, primitive strata of sapiens in Asia which was gradually replaced by Mongolids in the narrower sense.
Indians f.e. were to me never typical Mongolids, but rather people who fled because of the Mongolid pressure.

There was more than one race in Asia, this is known, and the situation in the Americas is also proved to be the result of more than one immigration. Even the idea of three seperate immigrations seems to be too simple, because there is diversity among early North Americans, and the "Australoid" types mignt represent two seperate groups with different racial origins.

Genetically the American types are distinct from the Neomongoloids who contributed to them, so I feel they shouldnt be considered to be a part of the same major race as the north-east Asian Neomongoloids.

Fierce_Dravidian
Friday, November 12th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Notice how extreme the forward malar prominence is on the gentleman in the first photo.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 05:16 AM
Notice how extreme the forward malar prominence is on the gentleman in the first photo.

Yes, Ive seen such developed malars in some Western Americans, too. Both craniometrically and genetically, the Chukchi are associated with American populations, so its not surprising theres a similarity.

Frans_Jozef
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 12:56 PM
A leathery skin tends to age prematurely certain population, like the Lapps; it might be some emergency adaptation to a drastic cold climate to protect the arteries, but straining them to in the process.

Their dark pigmentation might not have developed at that place, but a heritage of more southern origin, stucked to them and a practical resolution to higher UV-radiation.

But the structure and general shape of the vault, the strongly flattened occipital area, the bird-like prowess of the entire head, the malar prominence, the low-rooted nose, which hardly excites to an external cast, the subnasal prognathy bears continuity with the erectines, however a slight keeling of the vault in frontal view, the height and wideness of his face suggest either recent Eskimid admixture or that a NE Asian UP participated in the making of this population.

Fierce_Dravidian
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 06:09 PM
But this whole complex of "pale-asiatic" aborigines have their own interesting complex going on which is quite something else from our native Americans. I would imagine that some of his more aging kinsmen become more emaciated in appearence in that they progressively loose the cohesive subcutaneous adiposity that keeps the skin close to the anatomy of the faces, neck and other body parts and in this sense maybe some native Americans are comparable but then in this respect certain Yanomamo peoples age really well! without phenotypic emaciation. But still the forward facial prominence and lowness of the lower face of that gentleman is truly remarkable.

Fierce_Dravidian
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Now those native Highlanders in south America have the "bird-like" nasality don't they? I once offered an explation that the reasons for the nasality were for two reasons 1) It's the altitude which also alters the bodily proportions into something that is "barrel chested" and 2) the cool, dry- aridity of those mountainous places.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 06:25 PM
But this whole complex of "pale-asiatic" aborigines have their own interesting complex going on which is quite something else from our native Americans.

Well they're a seperate group from indigenous Americans, theyre just close to the Sinodont migration into the Americas.


I would imagine that some of his more aging kinsmen become more emaciated in appearence in that they progressively loose the cohesive subcutaneous adiposity that keep the skin close to the anatomy of the faces, neck and other body parts and in this sense maybe some native Americans are comparable but then in this respect certain Yanomamo peoples age really well! without phenotypic emcaciation.

I dont know about how well different populations age differently to each other to comment about this. I would have imagined that the opposite was true, that the cold-climate populations would preserve subcutaneous apidosity for longer, as a cold adaptation.


But still the forward facial prominence and lowness of the lower face of that gentleman is truly remarkable.

Yes, it is. I imagine that he must be an extreme example.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, November 13th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Now those native Highlanders in south America have the "bird-like" nasality don't they? I once offered an explation that the reasons for the nasality were for two reasons 1) It's the altitude which also alters the bodily proportions into something that is "barrel chested" and 2) the cool, dry- aridity of those mountainous places.

The breadth of the nasal bones is affected by humidity, yes. Its also been suggested that the volume of the frontal sinuses is affected by climate, though the evidence for this isn't strong because of the Kish sample grouping with samples from Melanesia and the Philippines, instead of with the populations of Egypt and Baghdad, and because a Peruvian desert sample was also out of line with this suggestion.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 07:28 AM
The breadth of the nasal bones is affected by humidity, yes. Its also been suggested that the volume of the frontal sinuses is affected by climate, though the evidence for this isn't strong because of the Kish sample grouping with samples from Melanesia and the Philippines, instead of with the populations of Egypt and Baghdad, and because a Peruvian desert sample was also out of line with this suggestion.

Neanderthals had huge sinuses and long, wide noses (this means absolutely big noses). This was the same in Iran as it was in Germany. The two climates could not have been the same. Neanderthals had plenty of time for selection. Why were the noses so similar in such divese climates?

Also, if the Neanderthals lived in a sub-glacial climate as do the Chukchi, why don't they have the same body structure? A professor in college, I forget the name, lived with the Alaskan eskimo each summer. He reported that they were small people but not fat and short-bodied. He said they were lean and muscular. I asked him about the rules of Gloger or Bergmann (I forget which deals with body proportions) and he simply said he didn't know why this was. What's up here?

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, November 16th, 2004, 08:12 AM
Neanderthals had huge sinuses and long, wide noses (this means absolutely big noses). This was the same in Iran as it was in Germany. The two climates could not have been the same. Neanderthals had plenty of time for selection. Why were the noses so similar in such divese climates?

I think this will be related to a common origin in a colder climate, though I imagine the nasal breadth of the neanderthals from the different climates differs from each other.


Also, if the Neanderthals lived in a sub-glacial climate as do the Chukchi, why don't they have the same body structure? A professor in college, I forget the name, lived with the Alaskan eskimo each summer. He reported that they were small people but not fat and short-bodied. He said they were lean and muscular. I asked him about the rules of Gloger or Bergmann (I forget which deals with body proportions) and he simply said he didn't know why this was. What's up here?

Actually, the pelvis and femur of neanderthals was similar to cold adapted moderns, so theres a physical similarity. I wrote about this "According to Weaver, the pelvis and the shape of the femur are a better indicator of climate than the limb proportions. His comparison of pelvis shapes in modern populations found that there was a seperation reflecting a difference in climate, between Aleutians, British and Inuit from colder climates, and Australians and Subsaharan Africans from warmer climates.

In his analysis of femur shape using these populations but adding neanderthals and near-moderns from Palestine, he got the same arrangement but the near-moderns grouped with the warm climate moderns, and the neanderthals were within the cold climate moderns.

Cold adapted femur bones show larger femoral heads and distal ends relative to length, thicker and rounder shafts, and lower neck-shaft angles, and the cold adapted pelvis form has wider pelvic apertures, longer pubic bones, more flared and more posteriorly rotated iliac blades, more laterally pointing anterior-superior iliac spines and more anteriorly located iliac tubercles."

I can tell you what the rules mean, but I cant comment on the difference between the cold adaptations in the Chukchi and the Classic Neanderthals.

Bergmann's rule suggests that animals in populations in cold climates are larger and more robust than those in populations in warm climates, however a lot of exceptions dont follow Bergmann's rule. But Gloger's rule isn't relevant here because it's about pigmentation.