PDA

View Full Version : Cro-Magnon/Phalian vs Bruenn



Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 03:54 PM
Phalian/Cro-Magnon types

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Phalian

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:00 PM
Phalian *

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:01 PM
Phalian **

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:04 PM
Phalian (in the middle)

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Phalian (in the left)

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:29 PM
So it were classical Phalian/Cro-Magnon types, but how's about Bruenns? Does anybody have "ideal" pics of Bruenns?

That's how Bruenns look like, in my opinion (see below).


Both races (Phaians and Bruenns) have long heads, broad and long faces, long noses, but Bruenns more flattish faced, and Phalians are more wide-faced (thus lower CI), Bruenns have narrower jaws and Phalians have wideer jaws, and, probably, Bruenns tend to be leptorrhine, and Phalians tend to be mesorrhine - so it's not one race., also Phalians are Cro-Magnons and not Nordic/Borreby mix...

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Same Bruenn - essentially Brunnoid look, IMO

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Same Bruenn

Also it seems that Bruenns, unlike Phalains, have sloping foreheads, and very (?) high-skulled, and jaws are long.

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 04:41 PM
But other Bruenns from Coon's TRoE are not high-skulled, so, perhaps, he's predominatly Battle-Ax after all?

Stríbog
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 08:57 PM
So are Brünns and Phalians just two different types of Cro-Magnon? I wonder, because I always doubted the "Phalian = Halstatt + Borreby" theory. Phalians are more muscular than either Halstatts or Borrebies, and have heavier facial bone structure than either. Are Cro-Magnons that light pigmented though? How long ago did Cro-Magnons differentiate from other Nordish subgroups? Did they originate in Northwestern Europe?

GreenHeart
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 09:36 PM
According to "Races of Man" Cro magnons orginated 30,000 years ago in what is now central Europe.......

Ross
Friday, January 17th, 2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by NordischesBlutundEhre
So are Brünns and Phalians just two different types of Cro-Magnon? I wonder, because I always doubted the "Phalian = Halstatt + Borreby" theory. Phalians are more muscular than either Halstatts or Borrebies, and have heavier facial bone structure than either. Are Cro-Magnons that light pigmented though? How long ago did Cro-Magnons differentiate from other Nordish subgroups? Did they originate in Northwestern Europe?

For sure, they're different.

Phalians are not Hallstatts + Borrebies.

The truth is clouded...

Stríbog
Saturday, January 18th, 2003, 03:30 AM
So there were and are blonde and blue-eyed Cro-Magnons?

Hellstar
Saturday, January 18th, 2003, 03:33 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=12225

Is somehow Phallien, but predominantly Hallstatt*

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=12226

Phallien but notice the East Baltic strain in this woman.

That's how Bruenns look like, in my opinion (see below).
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=12229

this type is a very unique type dont you think?
I dont find him overall representing for Brünn but yet he has some real interesting Brünn features.

Both races (Phaians and Bruenns) have long heads, broad and long faces, long noses, but Bruenns more flattish faced, and Phalians are more wide-faced (thus lower CI),

Not that long noses but alright get your point.

if that guy above is your prime example of a brünn then your statement about brünns having more flatten faces makes no sense compared to the phalliens.

and no Brünn have low Cephalic Indexes not Phalliens, why are wrongly saying that?

Bruenns have narrower jaws and Phalians have wideer jaws, and, probably, Bruenns tend to be leptorrhine, and Phalians tend to be mesorrhine

I dont agree that about your nasal index comparing. I think its much the same, what concerns yours comparing about jaws then I agree that phalliens have wider jaws.

so it's not one race., also Phalians are Cro-Magnons and not Nordic/Borreby mix.

Im beginning to find similar speculation my self.

I think Phalliens might not have anything to do with Nordics and borrebys afterall.

Also it seems that Bruenns, unlike Phalains, have sloping foreheads, and very (?) high-skulled, and jaws are long.

true jaws/chin seems longer sometimes in Brünns but your forehead theory Hmmm, I seen many phalliens with tall foreheads compared to Brünns small foreheads, I also find Phallians more intelligent.

But other Bruenns from Coon's TRoE are not high-skulled, so, perhaps, he's predominatly Battle-Ax after all?

Yep his certainly unique, Interesting thread you made.

Ross
Saturday, January 18th, 2003, 10:15 AM
Is somehow Phallien, but predominantly Hallstatt*

No, of course not Hallstatt

Phallien but notice the East Baltic strain in this woman.

However, Guether didn't notice and used this pic as the prime example. I fail to see any mongoloidism too. As I've many times said EBs are not a race...

this type is a very unique type dont you think?

yes, must be a rare look - well, perhaps they're all assimilated, because Irish Bruenns are all Borreby-looking

he look essentially NORDISH

if that guy above is your prime example of a brünn then your statement about brünns having more flatten faces makes no sense compared to the phalliens.

Long headness doesn't mean dolichocephaly... Phalians are much more widefaced, but Bruenns (at least this one) seem to be more flattish faced. I've seen many long and narrow faced semi-mongoloids with nevertheless flattish faces...

and no Brünn have low Cephalic Indexes not Phalliens, why are wrongly saying that?

Scandinavian ones tend to be dolichocephalic... both are long-headed - ~ 200mm

I dont agree that about your nasal index comparing. I think its much the same, what concerns yours comparing about jaws then I agree that phalliens have wider jaws.

That's simple - on average narrower heads mean narrower noses - and Bruenns are more narrow faced than Phalians, while both are long-faced.

I think Phalliens might not have anything to do with Nordics and borrebys afterall.

Nordic-Bruenn connection must be strong

Stríbog
Saturday, January 18th, 2003, 08:29 PM
How hairy are Brünns, and how light is their pigmentation?

cosmocreator
Saturday, January 18th, 2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Ross
The truth is clouded...


Isn't it always.

Tore
Thursday, January 23rd, 2003, 11:43 PM
Phalians and Brunns share many traits, both being derived from the Cro-Magnon stock, yet is rufosity included here?

An individual I know who went to Denmark told me that he saw many redheads, yet being the Jew that he is, I was more than skeptical regarding his claim.

Can anyone solve my little dilemma?

cruhmann
Saturday, April 24th, 2004, 03:08 AM
So are Brünns and Phalians just two different types of Cro-Magnon? I wonder, because I always doubted the "Phalian = Halstatt + Borreby" theory. Phalians are more muscular than either Halstatts or Borrebies, and have heavier facial bone structure than either. Are Cro-Magnons that light pigmented though? How long ago did Cro-Magnons differentiate from other Nordish subgroups? Did they originate in Northwestern Europe?

This is not true. Phalians are not more muscular than Borrebies, and do not have a heavier facial bone structure. The Borreby type, in it's original form, only occurs in individuals, and not as entire populations. The purest Borrebies are found on Fehmarn island, Germany and the Jaeren district of southwestern Norway, and in these places the Borreby blood is about 65-70%.
The Borreby type is tall to very tall, brachycepalic (ave. about 85), very heavy-boned, very muscular, with a tendency to be fat, especially in middle and old age. The face is of moderate height and very broad with a squarish shape.
The Bruenn type, in it's original form was also very tall, taller than even the Borreby, and also very heavy-boned and muscular. The face was very long and also broad, and the nose is very broad and somewhat flattish. The head form is dolichocephalic (ave. low-mid 70s). Most individuals today who are labeled as Bruenn are actually Bruenn mixed with other types. There are a few individuals in western Norway and along the coast in southwest Sweden who are nearly perfect representatives of the original type.
I think that in northern Germany and northern Netherlands there is some Bruenn in the mix, especially in Friesland.
So the Phalian probably does have some Bruenn mix, but is still primarily Hallstatt + Borreby. Northern Germany, and this would include northern Westphalia, are primarily sub-brachycephalic on average, maybe mesocephalic in some areas. Phalians range from mesocephalic to brachycephalic, and average sub-brachycephalic.
The Anglo-Saxon and Troender subtypes have more Bruenn than the Phalian, but they also have some Borreby mix, along with Hallstatt and Corded.
The Phalian is generally shorter-faced than these other types, except in individuals where a type of dinaricization has occured, producing a type with brachycephalic Borreby head and longish and narrower face.
As for the so-called Irish Bruenns, I am not sure how much they are actually related to Scandinavian/German Bruenns. There may be some relationship there, but to what extent I'm not sure. They look different to me, and they are more meso- to sub-brachycehalic, but these differences could be due to mixture with other types. Who knows if the Bruenns of the Paleolithic period were a relatively pure race or a mixture of 2 or more types?
I don't really see much Bruenn in Westfalen (Westphalia), but I could be wrong about that.
It may be that some race experts are bunching several subtypes together based on head form or some other characteristics. Like putting Bruenns or Bruenn-mixes together with Borreby/Hallstatt in one group because they share a few common characteristics. Sometimes a mixture of two races can produce characteristics already found in another race.

RusViking
Saturday, April 24th, 2004, 06:47 PM
I might be able to be of some help here. My FTDNA results match, and so far the only match in their database, a strong Upper Paleolithic signature. Basque, Dal people of Sweden, some in Croatia, the original people of the Canary Islands. Previously, and before the results were back, some of the folks, with pictures, in the Nordish forum classified my brother and myself as Brunn. My ancestors probably came from Sweden, a thousand years ago via Italy. There are blondes and redheads in Cromagnon. Celtic now apparently has the same genetic signature. My dentist years ago commented that he had never seen such a dense jaw bone in all his years in dentistry. The result of an x-ray. But we are in solution with Nordic and Med. I have never heard of Phalian. I will investigate. We are big, but lean. Over 5'10" to 6'1". Naturally very muscular. Large noses but not Semitic type. Red and blonde previously in family history but reddish brown now. Green/hazel eyes. I only talk about this now because I never felt Italian, if that makes sense, and journeyed two and a half years to make sense of who we are. However, there is a strong North Africa connection...Berbers especially. This haplotype, if not careful, can be confused with such. However, their physical characteristics are decidedly different. Took much research to figure this all out because FTDNA hadn't a clue. Out of space, will wait for questions.

Euclides
Sunday, April 25th, 2004, 02:58 PM
So it were classical Phalian/Cro-Magnon types, but how's about Bruenns? Does anybody have "ideal" pics of Bruenns?

That's how Bruenns look like, in my opinion (see below).


Both races (Phaians and Bruenns) have long heads, broad and long faces, long noses, but Bruenns more flattish faced, and Phalians are more wide-faced (thus lower CI), Bruenns have narrower jaws and Phalians have wideer jaws, and, probably, Bruenns tend to be leptorrhine, and Phalians tend to be mesorrhine - so it's not one race., also Phalians are Cro-Magnons and not Nordic/Borreby mix...


So , according with your oppinion Phalians are more close phisically to Borreby and Brunns more similar to Hallstatt Nordics

Euclides
Sunday, April 25th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Phalian *


This girls looks leptorrine...

Euclides
Sunday, April 25th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Phalian (in the middle)


The guy in the middle looks Bruenn , not Phalian ( according with your oppinion )

Glenlivet
Sunday, April 25th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Phalians have steep foreheads, the hair tend to be of the golden series of blond, thus inclining to be reddish in shade. A minority are red headed. As is common among Nordid adults the hair darkens with age. The most common colour among adults is still a golden medium brown. The eyes are according to Günther more grey than blue. The face is squarish and the vault is very low. The body is heavy and at least the men are very tall. The shoulder and hip breadth are greater than e.g. Göta and Trönder. Also the nose is shorter and broader, and the tip is often blunt. The thighs are also longer.

They also have deep-set eyes and very strong browridges that form a mound over the eye sockets. The cheekbones are fairly strong. The lower jaw is strong too, as is the chin.

In Lundman's scheme the Phalian type is part of the Nordid sub race. I believe that is reasonable, some Nordids have more of this or that ancient element. Phalian is important when one want to understand the origin of the Nordid sub race, whether they are Corded-Danubian as Coon postulated or gracilised Cro Magnons. The low skull of (west)-Nordids indicate the latter theory.

Phalian is localised to Western Germany. However, there is a variety of it in Central Sweden called Västmanland type. The type is more common for Germanic people in Continental Europe than it is among Scandinavians, excluding some Danes. Southeastern England have also this type, probably through Saxons, who are by many authors (e.g. Dutch anthropologist Nyessen, although he does not name them as such) described as Phalian or Phalian-like. In fact, Nyessen's description of the Reihengräber type among Groterpians approximate the Phalian anthropometric dimensions. Some might call that type Anglo-Saxon.