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Catterick
Friday, February 24th, 2017, 02:13 PM
Today I was reading some silly two year old Guardian piece about how the PlayStation made gaming "cool" by appealing to ravers in the mid 90s. Its wrong on three counts: the first is the MegaDrive was the first console to become mainstream, the second is the rave era was over before the PS1 was even launched, and the megaclubs are what killed it. Like megaclubs and sellout DJs annoyed hardcore ravers, PlayStation culture alienated a lot of gamers. (Not Glendennings fault so much as SCEA's).

The whole piece seems written by and for Glendenning's target audience: people well into their 20s who call themselves "youth" but go to work in suits. And then it starts praising Psygnosis omitting they were watered down and all but wiped out after the Sony takeover: besides most of their Amiga classics had been all image and no content. The whole thing is done to praise the British gaming industry which always was awful. So they need to rewrite history to make it look better than it really was.

The PlayStation one was ostensibly some great console. It was not. Compared to the visually better games of the SNES or Megadrive the graphics were ugly and drab. A step backwards till late in the PS1s life. Very few games from that era stand up very well today though people are still playing 2D Sonic on emulators, and Sony's success was all image over content. Ugh.

Not long ago there was a dumb documentary narrated by Charlie Broker about the history of games. The influence of Japanese gaming got brushed to one side although the 16 bit consoles revolutionised gaming, and US games like Doom got a mention, but Brooker was pimping British games more than anything. Rockstar began in Britain as DMA design so GTA got pimped in ridiculous arty farty terms: really, its played by chavs and Americans and any satire of America passes them by. Suppose Brooker had gone into more detail about the 16 bit console era and the success of Japanese games design, he would have to admit the fiddly controls and botched level design of many British games before that. The superior product won out: QED.

Oh and a murder simulator had a level set in some UK cathedral: kick ass? Really UK games are aimed at US audiences, nothing to get patriotic about if you have to scrape the barrel so hard in the first place.

Catterick
Saturday, February 25th, 2017, 03:45 AM
Heinrich Harrer pointed out to me most PS1 games were in 3D whilst most SNES games were 2D. This is true but there was less of a paradigm shift in Japan. Yes: globally the SNES was the winner but the MD was regarded as having the best arcade conversions to a home format - and original 2D titles. 2D did not die in Japan like it did in the west. Its decline in the west was the fault of SCEA and the imitation of its policies by Sega of America. This killed off interest in entire genres of gaming, and also Sega (the 2D/arcade console of choice was the MD). Also Sony was first to crack down on grey imports, shutting off easy access to Japan only titles. In that sense the PS (or rather SCEA) did untold damage by irrationally killing off an entire consumer base outside of Japan, correct?

This sounds strange to most people but SCEA banned 2D from its console because the PS1 was built to display polygons not sprites, so PS1 would look no better than 16 bit console displays if displaying 2D.

Finally: if you look at MD advertising it was aimed at ravers and recreational drug users. To the rave generation Sonic was not some cuddly animal mascot but digital surrealism. (Allegedly drugs inspired Sonic Team as well.) In order to present the PS1 as mature and edgy for the first time means ignoring not only gaming history but that of advertising as well.

The NES never caught on in Europe but in America it was most popular with under 13s. It was only ever mainstream in that sense which is not what we are talking about. The NES is responsible for the idea games are for children which still attaches to Nintendo today (misunderstanding their family based marketing). Oddly the idea that video games were once just for young children has crossed to the UK where it was never believed true.

Hersir
Saturday, February 25th, 2017, 09:51 PM
The first Playstation was the last console I had, I liked it a lot. I still play it from time to time, it's in our cabin in Norway. I only use it for Command and Conquer: Red Alert. When the console was still current generation, I used to play a lot of Tekken, Rayman and some other games. My first meeting with Warcraft was also on the console as they released Warcraft 2 for it. Red Alert on the Playstation had better graphics than the PC one.

Catterick
Saturday, February 25th, 2017, 11:51 PM
To be honest the popularity of the PS1 was fuelled by piracy. Though games like Tekken were ostensibly popular based on sales, most PS owners never played them.

Admittedly there are PS1 classics but many of them are well obscure, like Einhander. This is because of the SCEA policies more than anything: SCEA then as now hated 2D and back then they were anti-RPG as well. Anything arcade-genre is pretty much obscure outside Japan even were it released. Even franchises like Tekken at the time.

Catterick
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 12:18 AM
I would like to have been Japanese in the late 80s to mid 90s era. It was a heyday of arcade and home console games. Had I been, I might have had a career as a scorer. Nowadays such a career would do me no good of course. And it's bad to dwell on the past or what might have been.

Wulfaz
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 08:14 AM
http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/l/65364-age-of-empires-ii-the-age-of-kings-windows-other.jpg

I have never PS or X-Box or Nintendo, my best friend had these. I always use the PC. My best are the iconic game series the Age of series. The first Age of Empires was a good thing, but the real hit was the Age of Empires 2. The best computergame journalist in Hungary said that "I accept this to half-year an operation system".

https://screenshots.en.sftcdn.net/en/scrn/42000/42566/age-of-empires-ii-20.jpg

The Age of Empires 2 and its two expansion pack, the Conquerors and the Forgotten Civilisation have many well-created campaing or single battle, f.e. Joan D'Arc, Saladin, Frederick Barbarissa, Genghis Kan, Attila the Hun and the Native Americans. It has many civilisation, British, Byzantines, Kelt, Franks (French), Teutons (Germans), Vikings, Goths, Spanish, Saracens (Arabs), Persians, Turks, Mongols, Huns, Chineses, Japaneses, Koreans, Slavs, Hungarians, Italians, Indians, Mayas, Aztecs, Incas. Every civilisation has the own language in the game and an unique unit. The most famous are the Persian War Elephant, the Teutonic Knight or the English Longbowman.

Constantinople with the Roman/Byzantine Cataphract heavy cavalry.

https://msgpwebcdn.azureedge.net/ageofempires/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/3.jpg


Every group of the civilisations have the unique archtecture, f.e. West-EU, Middle-EU, East-EU, Middle-East, Far-East, Native Americans. In that age, 1998 when the Age of II presenced its sceinaro mod has fantastic options and settings what game never has before. The game has a map editor what is very easy to use. Furthermore it has a short lexicon about the Middle-Age and the civilisations.

Among the campaing missions are nice pictures and narration.

http://pcmedia.ign.com/media/news/image/AoEd0026.jpg

All these cause that older people nowadays plays with this game what far better than the following Age of Mythology or Age of Empires III, but these are fantastic game too.

The ultimate weapon is the Persian War Elephant. 40 can destroy a whole city.

http://www.forgottenempires.net/wp-content/uploads/elephants_army.jpg

Jäger
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 10:48 AM
I am not sure what your point is exactly, but SCEA's policy to neglect 2D spurred the 3D development, otherwise, many companies would just have kept making 2D games.
There wasn't much developer's knowledge about 3D which made the first attempts almost always clunky (esp. camera controls). Thus, as a general rule you can say that every PSX game which has a 2 in its name is better than the first iteration of said game. That is because that was when they basically released the same game again, with more experience in development (and consumer response).

The US gaming industry landed some of their biggest hits on the PS1 - in 3D - and these games were actually good.

Good arcade ports and 2D was the domain of the Saturn, and it was stomped by the PSX in the West. This is basically because western customers had a much more developed background in PC gaming (C64/ZX/etc.) than Japanese ones, and thus were more excited about a console which would play PC games rather than Arcade games (while often very good, they were usually designed to be coin eaters, and this didn't fly with the buy-once-play-as-much-as-you-like PC crowd). And the PC went 3D, so SCEA had to force 3D to make it more Pcyiy :)

Catterick
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 12:10 PM
I am not sure what your point is exactly, but SCEA's policy to neglect 2D spurred the 3D development, otherwise, many companies would just have kept making 2D games.
There wasn't much developer's knowledge about 3D which made the first attempts almost always clunky (esp. camera controls). Thus, as a general rule you can say that every PSX game which has a 2 in its name is better than the first iteration of said game. That is because that was when they basically released the same game again, with more experience in development (and consumer response).

The US gaming industry landed some of their biggest hits on the PS1 - in 3D - and these games were actually good.

Good arcade ports and 2D was the domain of the Saturn, and it was stomped by the PSX in the West. This is basically because western customers had a much more developed background in PC gaming (C64/ZX/etc.) than Japanese ones, and thus were more excited about a console which would play PC games rather than Arcade games (while often very good, they were usually designed to be coin eaters, and this didn't fly with the buy-once-play-as-much-as-you-like PC crowd). And the PC went 3D, so SCEA had to force 3D to make it more Pcyiy :)

What Jager said is the sort of nonsense talked by people with no background knowledge about this subject. Yes SCEA prompted 3D developments, but this was artificial and it spread to Sega. The Saturn was better for arcade ports and 2D yes: but they imitated SCEA's policy on 2D games, which killed Sega. PC gaming was new to most people when Doom caught public attention, the gaming computer of choice was the Amiga 500 then 1200. Amiga games often imitated console titles and Amiga titles were often ported to the MD. Again as with the PS1 the Amiga was a pirate friendly format and quality was often low despite a few classics. Before competition from the Japanese, controls were often fiddly and atrocious level design saw players having to restart and reload when they fell into traps caused by design oversight.

The damage caused by SCEA and Stolar (at both Sony and Sega) was so over the top that to this day, fans of Japanese games in the West still import only from Japan. If SCEA was finally scrapped it would do no good.

Jäger
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 04:22 PM
PC gaming was new to most people when Doom caught public attention, the gaming computer of choice was the Amiga 500 then 1200.
Amiga was a PC in the wider sense, that I didn't follow the "IBM PC" definition exactly was obvious with my examples: C64/ZX-Spectrum. The point is still valid though: Non-Arcade/Non-Console Gaming was more common in the West, with a longer tradition.
I.e. the C64 was a great success in the West, with many games available, but not in Japan.


The damage caused by SCEA and Stolar (at both Sony and Sega) was so over the top that to this day, fans of Japanese games in the West still import only from Japan. If SCEA was finally scrapped it would do no good.
What damage? You mean they could have made even more money? Enough is not enough I guess.

Catterick
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 07:12 PM
You mean a home computer not a PC (IBM PC and compatible). Europe did not compete in the arcade business but Americans did - Midway, Data East. And Japan had her MSX home computer format. So no this isn't about western gaming being computer based and Japanese gaming being console based. That is another misconception, and it seems true today because arcade-inspired games design is near-exclusively Japanese now, or such games are "retro". Yet in Japan they continued to develop these genres, the games are not "retro". And the near-death of arcade-inspired gaming outside Japan can be blamed on SCEA. The death of Sega caused by Stolar's policies - that he claims he was pressured to implement - was the end of arcade type games in the west. So I think that's damage unless you approve of gaming being murder simulators, GTA, chav racers and FIFA (each re-released every year).

Jäger
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 07:28 PM
You mean a home computer not a PC (IBM PC and compatible).
Indeed.


And Japan had her MSX home computer format.
Which wasn't as successful nor had as many games as the C64, the ZX-Spectrum, the Amiga 500, etc.
You did not refute my statement, that Western customers wanted a console which rivaled the home computer, not the arcade, partly because that's where many memories of games came from.
In Germany - one of the biggest gaming markets (at that time at least) - I am not even sure if we ever had Arcades, certainly not in any considerable number.


And the near-death of arcade-inspired gaming outside Japan can be blamed on SCEA. [...] So I think that's damage unless you approve of gaming being murder simulators, GTA, chav racers and FIFA (each re-released every year).
"Arcade inspired" is a rather broad term, and I agree, the current state is indeed damaged, but the first EA Sports titles were born during the SNES area, and some titles were actually good (2/3-D), the same goes for the chav-racer "Need for Speed" which declined simply due to endless recycling with only cosmetic additions.
Yet, this is a more general problem in my opinion, since we can see the very same development with movies. I am not sure if I would mainly blame SCEA on this, then again, they also produce movies, don't they? :D

Catterick
Sunday, February 26th, 2017, 07:57 PM
Well I admit I am one of those Japan only people. ;) I like linear games that test reflexes which rules out Western games.

I think the last good Western game on a (then) current gen console, was X2.

Catterick
Saturday, March 4th, 2017, 10:41 PM
Here a games journo is at it.

https://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/email-dark-age-of-shmups/

Did you know there were no distinct games genres in the 1980s? And that all western shooting games were non-linear and arena based? I learned this from that blog post.

What a load of rubbish.

The letter is right: niche genres specialise upon pandering to a declining audience. Score shooters are great but they aren't entry level. At some point the income from such genres dries up as old fans drop out, and the genre dies - like Irem and others dropped out. Old arcade design was aimed at attracting casual players and hooking them with the learning curve so people would keep paying coins. Even in the quintessential arcade genre this was lost. Infinite continues and game saves are part of the problem because they undermine the efforts at designing a learning curve.

Then comes the obligatory bit about the Western shmups dying first but also evolving into FPS. Why did arcade genres die even on home consoles in the west? Hint: SCEA. How are faceless space marines less accessible than spaceships? The FPS hasn't got its controls right yet: as 3D goes, spaceships were better for accessibility right back to the first ancient Star Wars license with its vector graphics.

Catterick
Saturday, March 11th, 2017, 01:36 PM
Another is that I keep seeing the Sega Saturn dismissed: they even repeat lies such as the Saturn having only two games that sold over two million copies. Even if it is just because the Saturn received slightly inferior PS1 ports they can't simply dismiss the Saturn, whilst praising the PS1 as a classic console for having the exact same titles. The hatchet job on Sega still won't die back after all these years.

I hate Western games, the Western games industry and the people who play them. PS1 was to blame more than anything. That and certain people infiltrating Sega.

Before, Jager said "arcade inspired" would be a broad term. He is wrong. I was referring to reflexes based gameplay, linear design, immediate accessibility down to simple controls and a learning curve of difficulty (for example: finite continues).

Jäger
Sunday, March 12th, 2017, 08:38 AM
Another is that I keep seeing the Sega Saturn dismissed
I do not see this. It is mostly praised because of its excellent shmup library.


Before, Jager said "arcade inspired" would be a broad term. He is wrong. I was referring to reflexes based gameplay, linear design, immediate accessibility down to simple controls and a learning curve of difficulty (for example: finite continues).
I was not wrong, you just simply gave a real definition. With a definition you can make any broad term tight. That's the very idea of a definition, but without it the term stays broad.

In any case, this definition is very much contrary to Japanese RPGs, so I don't see a Western-Japanese dichotomy here.
Even more so, since your definition fits perfectly for Pong - a Western game :D .

I already told you, Western gamers grew up with home computers rather than arcades, the most paramount difference being the controls. This spawned a very different tradition of gaming. Of course, you are free to reject it, to each his own, but it doesn't make the industry damaged (not for this reason, but I agree it is damaged), it just makes you egocentric.

Catterick
Sunday, March 12th, 2017, 02:07 PM
Well I already said the Japanese had home computers: they obviously have ROGs. But the success of Japanese home games outside Japan was mostly down to their expertise with designing arcade PCBS. True the US had such an industry (though it became imitative of the Japanese), but the UK did not. In that sense arcade genres are Japanese games. They certainly feel that way nowadays.

Another odd thing I keep reading is that consoles killed arcades: though they made a dent in arcade attendance, it's a notion proved false already. The cost of new PBS and cabinets outside Japan made it prohibitive for arcades to keep current, whilst Japanese arcades are conveniently located for commuters. The effects of consoles were hitting by the time SF2 was released and it temporarily reversed the trend, globally: consoles did not replace the social experience of arcade gaming at all, and arcades can fight back with killer apps - where there still are arcades. The decline of arcades removed sociality from popular gaming, and it left a hole. Maybe the death of consoles will boost the arcades again.

Interestingly Ubisoft (France) are making arcade cabinets I have seen in Peru. Though the games were of no interest imagine Japan exporting cabs at a better price to stimulate the market outside Japan.

But more interestingly in Internet cafes there are young people - aged about 15 to 29 or so - playing esports here. They were competing and helping one another learn. One or two of them looked nerdy - most of them did not. They were socially functional as they communicated round the screens. What does that remind you of? Paradise lost.

Esports and other gaming bars do not even compare. The games are not the focus: customers don't take gaming seriously there. Mana Bar and Meltdown were founded by nerds for nerds and gaming media hyped them as bringing games to a popular audience, but in practice neither intent panned out. Such places teem with chattering class hipsters. And of course I notice the gaming media had to bring the word "mature" into it, which is the biggest myth of all (that people ever thought "games are for kids" in the first place).

I have never understood why gamers themselves buy this, because they must remember otherwise. It only applies to the NES era in North America. In Japan games always had a wider demographic: in the UK no one cared till the 16 bit era, when the games were first made popular with the rave generation. That was not little children. Then eventually the console with the widest demographic in the UK, was the Wii - with its cutesy graphics and shunning of "maturity". Whilst ten year olds played the "mature" games on the 360. The irony. But people still talk as though gaming is - or ever was - kids stuff. This is maybe the most annoying media lie about games, that is totally false and never corrected. But I can't pinpoint the origins of the perspective in the UK. I actually asked Glendenning once if he had intended to alienate teen gamers: he said no, so Glendenning is not to blame. (I suspect it began with the PS1 era zeitgeist nonetheless.)

I'm repeating a couple of points here but all these things blur together and all the falsehoods prop one another up.

Catterick
Monday, March 20th, 2017, 12:22 AM
The history of games was rewritten because it is the poitless rather than Orwellian trend in pop culture journalism. By chance I found this criticism of the trend. Is it just an absence of fact checking followed by mindless plasgiarism?

"But all those nodding dogs with fuck all to say, they're the "experts" now. The simplistic, smugly flippant nature of what passes for media commentary on popular culture is testament to that. Everyone else is excluded from the discourse, because God damn it, they complicate things."

http://thequietus.com/articles/15092-blur-parklife-anniversary-review/

Even the Charlie Brooker documentary (How Video Games Changed the World ) was blatantly false historiography, and Brooker is a pro games journo from PC Gamer. Nothing bad was said about the gaming industry through its history, and less still about the past problems of the British gaming industry. Very unlike Screenwipe and Newswipe. Its treatment of the subject was very shallow as either culture journalism or the history of a medium. Didn't even touch on electronic video games having two separate design roots prior to the non-dedicated home consoles, that inexactly correspond to subcultural differences between HC/PC and console users. this is not a minor problem - to gloss over fundamental things in a history.

Catterick
Friday, April 28th, 2017, 07:29 PM
I am not sure what your point is exactly, but SCEA's policy to neglect 2D spurred the 3D development, otherwise, many companies would just have kept making 2D games.

Reading back through old threads I want to analyse this. Why is 3D good and especially at a time when it was so underpowered? A lot of people think games went 3D a console generation too early, and you agreed early PS games look awful, correct?

The SCEA ban on 2D games was due to the console's rushed production meaning that it could only display pseudo-2D. And the silly ban excluded titles with 2D gameplay, if the graphics looked polygonal rather than simulating 2D sprites. A distinction must be made between the 2D look, and the 2D gameplay. though, the banning of the former in America (and in effect the UK) led to a decline of the latter.

Anyway, the good news is the PS4 is flopping even in Japan. And along with the PlayStation brand will soon die Sony. Amid their awful treatment of consumers and their shit tier net security. Good riddance. Sumer is icumen in? If it won't undo the damage Sony caused at least we can enjoy watching it die.

Jäger
Sunday, April 30th, 2017, 10:34 AM
A lot of people think games went 3D a console generation too early, and you agreed early PS games look awful, correct?
More or less.
However, the advantage of going into 3D early was not looks, but the gameplay. People simply didn't know how to design levels and controls for 3D. The computer had different peripherals (mouse and keyboard) so the ps1 was an excellent testing ground. It paved the way for good 3D games, even during its own life cycle. As I said, you can basically call every title with a "2" in it better than its precursor, you could literally watch the evolution of 3D games.
And that the PS2 was the most successful console of all time wouldn't have happened without PS1.
Commercially, Sony did everything right.


The SCEA ban on 2D games was due to the console's rushed production meaning that it could only display pseudo-2D.
There is nothing wrong with "pseudo-2D" (I think it is factually more correct to call anything we view on a 2D screen pseudo-3D). It is just a matter of programming.


And the silly ban excluded titles with 2D gameplay, if the graphics looked polygonal rather than simulating 2D sprites.
Competing consoles like the Jaguar, the 3DO, the Amiga CD32 and the Saturn did not have hardware acceleration for 3D, and they got all smashed by the psx. So there was a demand for 3D from the consumer. Thus even without the ban, I do not think it would have played out much differently. In Japan there was no such ban, and good 2D titles are not plenty there either, I can think only of 3: Panzer Bandit, Little Ralph and Harmful Park.
The rest is more or less just about Arcade ports, Sony America did right in going for fresh games.


A distinction must be made between the 2D look, and the 2D gameplay. though, the banning of the former in America (and in effect the UK) led to a decline of the latter.
Well, I am not sold on the idea that the ban is the only reason. In the early 90s live video was the big thing, and EA even built a whole console around this (the 3DO), it didn't do jack to decline or incline anything! It just flopped.
The reason it worked with Sony was because 3D was immensely sought after by the consumer. Since video game companies want to make money, they would have given them 3D, it's just that simple.

What we have now are countless of Indie game developers copying 8 and 16 bit graphics and 2D game play, that's because these kind of games can actually be designed/implemented by one or two persons easily.
So we certainly of tons of 2D game play nowadays. Due to restrictive licensing issues, those games are usually released (mostly) only for the PC.
The lesson: consoles always chase after the PC ;)


Anyway, the good news is the PS4 is flopping even in Japan. And along with the PlayStation brand will soon die Sony.
What is the competition? The PC?
In any case, the PS4 is not doing super well, but it is still no commercial failure.


Amid their awful treatment of consumers and their shit tier net security. Good riddance. Sumer is icumen in? If it won't undo the damage Sony caused at least we can enjoy watching it die.
I wouldn't mind.

Catterick
Sunday, April 30th, 2017, 04:33 PM
If people simply didn't know how to design levels and controls for 3D, surely that confirms it was risky and premature.

The PS1 brought the origins of what in the UK we call the chav gamers: racing and soccer games had always existed, but people played other things as well before the PS1. When the PS1 took off amid a resurgence in birds, balls and booze culture, the average PS1 owner played little or anything else. Perhaps this is the commercial success of Sony (yuck) because the mentality of the casual/chav gamer is still afflicting us now.

The PS1 is actually well known for shootingu titles. Its just that the West did not recieve them.

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/phenominal-playstation-ps1-2d-shooters-shmups-library

And the Euroshmup (Apidya, Project X, SWIV) was well loved and huge on the Amiga and the 16 bit consoles: I still don't understand why it died other than licensing hostility.

Indie games cost nothing and attract no real attention: they are not taken seriously and those with retro graphics seem aimed at hipsters rather than games fans. Meanwhile niche bullet hell games can slow down current gen consoles - cutting edge not retro.

Jäger
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 11:06 AM
If people simply didn't know how to design levels and controls for 3D, surely that confirms it was risky and premature.
Yes, but the first step had to be done sometime, it would have been the same 10 years later, just with better graphics most likely.


The PS1 brought the origins of what in the UK we call the chav gamers: racing and soccer games had always existed, but people played other things as well before the PS1.
As I said, the old 2D games were implemented by one or two man teams wiht a low 6 figure budget (if at all), contrarily, an AAA 3D title needs a 20 - 30 man team and a 7 figure budget. You want to minimize your risk with such an investment, so they copy what worked well for them. We can observe the same with movies nowadays, I don't think this is structurally the fault of Sony.


The PS1 is actually well known for shootingu titles. Its just that the West did not recieve them.
Again, 95% of them are arcade ports, Harmful Park I already acknowledged.


And the Euroshmup (Apidya, Project X, SWIV) was well loved and huge on the Amiga and the 16 bit consoles: I still don't understand why it died other than licensing hostility.
I don't understand either. I think the market was too saturated, too many games in general.


Indie games cost nothing and attract no real attention: they are not taken seriously and those with retro graphics seem aimed at hipsters rather than games fans.
Shovel Knight was quite a success. Even on the PS4. As you said yourself, the cost return is higher, because of the low production cost.


Meanwhile niche bullet hell games can slow down current gen consoles - cutting edge not retro.
Well, that's hardly a valid point, any baldy coded program can slow down anything.

Catterick
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 02:37 PM
Yes, but the first step had to be done sometime, it would have been the same 10 years later, just with better graphics most likely.

And this was wrong, because? A lot of genres were hit by 3D. It was unforgivable and it needs undoing.

Jäger
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 04:01 PM
And this was wrong, because? A lot of genres were hit by 3D. It was unforgivable and it needs undoing.
Huh? I didn't say it was wrong, that was my point. 3D in 1991 in 2001 or in 1981, neither of these times is "wrong".

Catterick
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 04:15 PM
Huh? I didn't say it was wrong, that was my point. 3D in 1991 in 2001 or in 1981, neither of these times is "wrong".

You said it "had to be done", as in engineered by someone. Why?

Had things stayed 2D (which they partly have, in Japan) why would it be worse? The wole 2D/3D controversy nowadays is because the shift feels forced, and a lot of people resent it.

(Retro aesthetics like Shovel Knight are a step backwards: one can do better sprites now than an 8 bit console! Retro arcades and reto gaming bars are similarly a nostalgic fad, not looking forward. And as theme pub fads go, that for gaming was extremely short: normal pubs started to imitate having consoles in them, shortening the fad. Retro won't bring 2D back.)

Jäger
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 06:13 PM
You said it "had to be done", as in engineered by someone. Why?
Otherwise you can't get experience with 3D, someone had to try it out, or are you saying you want no 3D games at all?


Had things stayed 2D (which they partly have, in Japan) why would it be worse? The wole 2D/3D controversy nowadays is because the shift feels forced, and a lot of people resent it.
I am not sure, I doubt it had been worse, but certain game design concepts which are fun would not have been possible to implement in 2D.
I am no fan of Sony's 3D only policy, I like 2D games as well as 3D ones.


Retro aesthetics like Shovel Knight are a step backwards: one can do better sprites now than an 8 bit console!
I agree.


Retro won't bring 2D back.
Not directly, but the relative success of those games certainly gave confidence to better 2D implementations like "Bloodstained".

Catterick
Monday, May 1st, 2017, 06:51 PM
Well its not like Japan saw it as either/or. The question is why 2D died in the West (hurting Japan in the process). Since this is about the Western industry and the death of 2D is one way in which it diverged from that in Japan, I don't think Bloodstained is relevant. He is continuing Castlevania without the intellectual property in Japan, and Japan is not against 2D: 2D is not retro over there, or Vanillaware would be considered retro. Castlevania itself continued in 2D on the Nintendo handheld format as you know.

I do not mind the existence of 3D games but I object, as I said, that the death of 2D in the west felt forced. Not even Japanese titles were imported (RPGs had the same problem as shootingu). In that sense I harbour a grudge, as I already stated. 3D platform games are not platform games at all and most 3D genres like the FPS and anything third person with manual camera angles, does not interest me at all. The best 3D games were Panzer Dragoon and the like (IMO).

"3D ruined games" is a useful catchphrase for a suite of disastrous changes that hit the industry and subculture at the same time. So I'm going to stick with it even if not 100% true. I do wish that the PS1 era had not happened. Not just the Playstation, or Sony entering the industry. Sega and Nintendo made awful (but different) decisions at that time. Sega died and Nintendo entered self-imposed irrelevancy. The next disaster after the triumph of the chav gamer, was the rise of online gaming culture (yuck).

Catterick
Tuesday, May 9th, 2017, 05:16 PM
Is it true as Jäger said that the PS1 had brought home computer type games to consoles? Please think: the "euroshmup" died, Sensible Soccer failed to get sales on the PlayStation though it had been the best selling Amiga title before that. The most obvious heir to the Amiga and the like was surely the home PC, not the PlayStation. Is true that things like GTA and Tomb Raider took off: but the sandbox had been sparse on the home computers and Tomb Raider represents a new genre, the 3D "platformer".

Catterick
Thursday, May 11th, 2017, 08:31 AM
I found another one.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/01/the-fall-and-rise-of-american-made-games

The nationa origin of arcade games did not matter to punters, but yet the success of Mortal Kombat in the arcades was a sign American games were pushing back (against what?) in the arcades?

Even the better histories of gaming make errors such as that and seem to have an an anti-Japanese bias.

Mööv
Sunday, July 23rd, 2017, 08:39 PM
Just bumped into this, and this topic seems appropriate to post it in.


Well Played
a journal on video games, value and meaning
What makes a game good? or bad? or better?
The Well Played Journal is a forum for in-depth close readings of video games that parse out the various meanings to be found in the experience of playing a game. It is a reviewed journal with CfPs for submissions that will be released on a regular basis with high-quality essays.
Contributors are encouraged to analyze sequences in a game in detail in order to illustrate and interpret how the various components of a game can come together to create a fulfilling playing experience unique to this medium. Through contributors, the journal will provide a variety of perspectives on the value of games.
As with the three Well Played books (1.0 | 2.0 | 3.0), the term “well played” is being used in two senses. On the one hand, well played is to games as well read is to books. So, a person who reads books a lot is "well read" and a person who plays games a lot is "well played." On the other hand, well played as in well done. So, a hand of poker can be “well played” by a person, and a game can be “well played” by the development team.
Contributors are encouraged to look at video games through both senses of “well played.” So, with well played as in well read, contributors are looking closely at the experience of playing a game. And with well played as in well done, contributors are looking at a game in terms of how well it is designed and developed.
The goal of the journal is to continue developing and defining a literacy of games as well as a sense of their value as an experience. Contributors are invited to also discuss games in general (ranging from tabletop, to big games and more) and how they are often designed for different fields (education, entertainment, etc) as we more fully develop a literacy around games and play. Contributors are encouraged to consider using screenshots and video of their gameplay in order to help illustrate their ideas. And we're open to suggestions on themed issues around a specific game or a topic across games.
Video games are a complex medium that merits careful interpretation and insightful analysis. By inviting contributors to look closely at video games and the experience of playing them, we hope to expand the discussion, and show how games are well played in a variety of ways.
Well Played session tracks are also being held at academic and industry conferences. There are sessions at Games, Learning and Society, DiGRA, IndieCade and Games for Change, as well as at the Museum of the Moving Image in New York, with other events being planned.

Website of the journal >> http://press.etc.cmu.edu/wellplayed