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Evolved
Friday, April 16th, 2004, 10:36 AM
Joking about the 'taters', serious about the priest.

A group of people living from China to Lithuania, so they don't have a single origin. The different tribes each have their own story. Racially they are very diverse, but they are Turkic (Mongol) and Finnic mixed people, basically. I'm really only familar with one group of them, the ones in the Idel-Ural region. Not sure how they differ from place to place except in pictures I've seen.

There are some good pages here: Tatarstan (http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0007/0007_03.htm).

I don't know of any historical Tatar settlements in Sweden. According to statistics only 80 Tatars live there, they are probably exchange students and recent immigrants.

Crimean Tatars visit Sweden (http://www.euronet.nl/users/sota/krsweden.htm).


Tiumen (tumen) and the Tobol Tatars: Self denomination "Tiumenli" and "Tobolik". In 1926 there were 22,636 Tiumen and 32,102 Tobol Tatars.

Tara Tatars, self-denomination Tarlyk (Darlik ?) In 1926 there were 11,517 Tara Tatars, in the valleys of Irtysh and Tara.

Baraba Tatars, self-denomination Baraba, 7,528 in 1926.

Bukharlyks, originally 15th and 16th century fur merchants from Central Asia and western Siberia. 11,659 in 1926.

There are other groups there, the Volga Tatars, the Astrakhan Tatars, the Kasimov group and the Bashkirs (Bashqurts).

Astrakhan Tatars, self denomination Karagashly, are mixtures of the Nogais and Astrakhan Tatars. They speak and write the same language as the Kazan Tatars. 43,000 in 1926.

Kasymov Tatars are the refugees from Kazan Khanate who settled in Riazan in the 15th century under the leadership of Kasym Khan. 7,399 in 1897.

Lithuanian Tatars also called Polish or Belorussian Tatars are descendants of the Nogai Ordu (Horde) to whom Grand Duke Vitautas applied for assistance in his struggle against the Teutonic Order. After the victory at Grunwald (1410) they were invited to settle in Lithuania. They speak mostly Polish but are Muslim. Probably around 5,000 left. Some migrated to the USA and live in Brooklyn...

The largest groups is probably the Volga Tatar group. [Volga seems to be corruption of Bulgar (Bolgar).]

Volga Tatars proper, also called Kazan Tatars. Before the revolution they called themselves 'Turks' and in some cases Bulgars. They are descended from the Volga Bulgars, of turkicized Eastern Finns and of the Golden Ordu Turkic tribes. They range in ethnic type from the purely Finnic (blond and blue eyed) to the mongoloid type resembling Kazakhs.

Mishars, turkicized Eastern Finns (Meschera and Mordvinians). They preserve their Finnic ethnic type and speak a western dialect of Kazan Tatars. About 200,000 in 1912.

Teptiars, Volga Tatars who migrated east after the Russian conquest of Kazan and settled among the Bashkirs. Their dialect is a mixture of Tatar and Bashkir. 300,000 in 1912.

Kryashans, Volga Tatars converted to Christianity, mainly during two campaigns. One in the late 16th century in which Muslim Tatars and animist Turks and Finns were converted. The second in the first half of the 18th century, during the reign of Tsarina Anna, when a large number of Muslim Tatars were forced to convert. They've been assimilating continuously. Probably no more than 250,000 presently.

The ancestors of the Volga Tatars attained a high level of urban civilization in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries and their culture was not destroyed either by the Mongol invasion of the 13th century or by the Russian conquest of the 16th. In the 19th century the Tatar cities of Kazan, Orenburg, Troitsk, and Astrakhan ranked among the great cultural centers of the Islamic world.

This background explains the Tatar community's exceptional capacity for survival. Not only has it resisted pressure over centuries aimed at their assimilation by the Russians, but they even succeeded in converting to Islam and Tatarizing some Eastern Finns (Udmurts, Maris, Mordvinians) and Christian Turks (Chuvash). The exact number is not known but is certainly considerable. This process was especially strong between 1905 and 1928. At the same time, the Tatars are the only Muslim Turkic nationality which, because of its diaspora, is being linguistically being assimilated by Russians.

Bashkirs: 1,371,000 in 1979. The ancestors of the northern and western Bashkirs were Ugrian or Finnic tribes, Turkified and Islamized during the period of the Golden Ordu and the Kazan Khanate. The southern and eastern Bashkirs are descendants of the Turkic tribes closely related to Kazakhs and Nogais.

Krimchak: The Krimchak Jews (called Krimtschaki in Russian) are one of the smallest and least-known Jewish groups. The Krimchaks were rabbinical Jews who lived on the Crimean peninsula (especially in Kaffa). Important settlements of Krimchaks began in the 16th century. They spoke a form of Crimean Tatar. In 1926 there were 6000 speakers of the Krimchak language. Today, there are virtually none. The Krimchaks did not know the Hebrew language but they did use the Hebrew script. Their occupations were primarily farming and crafts. The exact origins of the Krimchak Tatars are unclear. (contributed by Kevin Brook <kbrook@acad.bryant.edu>)

Evolved
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Guys from Tatarstan, some of them are Russians though. ;)
http://www.kazan.ru/people/?gender=M&sort=t&page=0

Evolved
Sunday, May 30th, 2004, 08:57 AM
Here are some more Tatar girls, from a pan-Turanian site

http://www.turan.tc/restur/yeni1/kirim/ogrenci.jpg

Juho
Saturday, August 21st, 2004, 12:03 AM
Well, i found one picture of Finnish-Tatar

http://www.logosmedia.fi/artikkeliarkisto/akar.gif


I have heard that Finnish tatars are Mari-origin. maris are old Finno-Ugric nation in Volga:)


Can I have link to Pan-Turanian site???

Evolved
Monday, August 30th, 2004, 02:40 PM
http://www.turan.tc :)

Bulair
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 10:52 AM
Some of the so-called Tatars, Chuvash and Kumans are descendants of Volga Bolgars.The proto-Bolgars are probably Turanid, but they mixed with the local population so they recieved a more european look.Eventually they were overrun by the mongol hordes and were later labled as Tatars from the communists.

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 11:42 AM
It looks like many of those are influenced by Great Russians, by Pontid and Corded traits.

There are also men who look fully Trnder in Northern Sweden who identify themselves as Saami.

The 7th man have East-Baltid (of the Savolax type) and to a lesser extent Kumid traits.

Do you think that the first one, who has a mobile in his hand, is a Ladogan?



Ladogan lads

Kuhinoor
Saturday, December 30th, 2006, 01:49 PM
There aren't any real conflicts between Russians and Tatars in Russia, except for Krimean Tatars, who we hate with all passion, but to show the real attitude of Russians to Tatars I'll provide you with an old Russian proverb:

Not-invited guest ist worse than a Tatar.
There's a joke also:
The Tatars didn't like this proverb and demanded from Russians to change it. Russians agreed and changed it to:
Not-invited guest is better than a Tatar:D :D :D

Crescender
Saturday, December 30th, 2006, 05:31 PM
why are you all trying to "europize" or "caucasize" turkic folks?
they were always turkic and they will be so.
by the way the Finns are also a turkic language speaking folk. I guess a part of the Finnish are from turkic origin!!!

Crescender
Saturday, December 30th, 2006, 10:32 PM
1. Everybody knows that the Finnish are Finno-Ugric. IT'S A FACT
2. It's no question that the Finnish are mixed with turkic folks
3. I don't care what language the armenians speak. (What does this assertion has to do with my comment, could you please explain?!)
4. My comment was directed to those who were saying that Tatars are mixed with Europid folks which "caused" that they have blue eyes that is false
5. The huge numbers of turkic people of Xinjiang (China) have also blue eyes!!!
6. The main statement of my comment was, that blue eyes don't have to be coercively a feature of white people!!

greets

Pertinax
Monday, January 1st, 2007, 04:38 PM
"5. The huge numbers of turkic people of Xinjiang (China) have also blue eyes!!!"

The Tocharians or Tusharas as known in Indian literature were the easternmost speakers of an Indo-European language in antiquity, inhabiting the Tarim basin in what is now Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, northwestern People's Republic of China. Their unique culture spanned from the 1st millennium BC to the end of the 1st millennium AD. Their language is called Tocharian.

There is evidence both from the mummies and Chinese writings that many of them had blonde or red hair and blue eyes
Tocharians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians)

Irmin
Monday, January 1st, 2007, 08:24 PM
1. Everybody knows that the Finnish are Finno-Ugric. IT'S A FACT
2. It's no question that the Finnish are mixed with turkic folks
3. I don't care what language the armenians speak. (What does this assertion has to do with my comment, could you please explain?!)
4. My comment was directed to those who were saying that Tatars are mixed with Europid folks which "caused" that they have blue eyes that is false
5. The huge numbers of turkic people of Xinjiang (China) have also blue eyes!!!
6. The main statement of my comment was, that blue eyes don't have to be coercively a feature of white people!!
greets


"5. The huge numbers of turkic people of Xinjiang (China) have also blue eyes!!!"

The Tocharians or Tusharas as known in Indian literature were the easternmost speakers of an Indo-European language in antiquity, inhabiting the Tarim basin in what is now Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, northwestern People's Republic of China. Their unique culture spanned from the 1st millennium BC to the end of the 1st millennium AD. Their language is called Tocharian.

There is evidence both from the mummies and Chinese writings that many of them had blonde or red hair and blue eyes.

Sou they are no real turkic then. At least no racially.

Oswiu
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 02:48 AM
So they are not real turkic then. At least no racially.
Simplistic. Where and when do you find real Turkic?

The Turkic languages are surprisingly undifferentiated for the most part.
See;
Old Turkic+ bir iki ch trt besh alt yeti skiz toquz on
Bolgar
Chuvash pr ik vis' tvat pilk ult s'ich sakr tkhr vun
Southern
Turkish bir iki drt bes, alti yedi sekiz dokuz on
Crimean bir eki s, drt bs, alti yedi sigiz tohuz on
Turkmen bir iki uch drt besh alti yedi sekiz dokuz on
Khalaj bi: kki :ch t:rt be:sh alta ye:tti skkiz toqquz o:n
Gagauz bir iki ch drt besh alti yedi sekiz dokuz on
Azerbaijani bir iki drd bes, altI yeddi sekkiz doqquz on
Qashqay bir ikki ch drt b'sh on
Eastern
Uyghur bir ikki ch trt bsh alt ytt skkiz toqquz on
Uzbek bir ikki uch to'rt besh olti yetti sakkiz to'kkiz o'n
Yellow Uighur pr shke ush trt pes altI yekht saqIs toqus on
Salar byr igi uj diot besh alty yidy sekis doqus on
W Yughur byrsh igy ush diort bes ahldy yidy saghys dohghys on
Fu-y Grgs br igi ush durt bish alt chiti sigis dog^us on
Chagatay+ bir iki ch trt besh alt yeti sekiz toquz on
Western
Bashkir ber ike s doert bish altI ete higedh tughIdh un
Karachay bir eki yuch tyort besh alti jeti segiz toghuz on
Karaim bir eki its dyert bes alti yedi segiz toghuz on
Kumyk bir eki ch dyert besh alti yetti segiz toghuz on
Tatar ber ike ch drt bish alti jide sigez tugiz un
Baraba bir iki ts trt psh altti ydi skiz toGiz on
Crimean Tatar bir eki uch' dyort besh alti yedi sekiz dok`uz on
Central
Kazakh bir yeki ush tort bes alti zhetti segiz toghiz on
Kyrghyz bir eki ch trt besh alty jeti segiz toghuz on
Nogai bir eki sh drt bes alti yeti segiz togiz on
Karakalpak bir eki sh trt bes alti zheti segiz toghiz on
Northern
Yakut biir ikki s trt bies alta sette aGIs toGusu on
Dolgan biir ikki s trt bies alta hette agis togusu on
Khakas pir iki s trt pes alti cheti segis toghis on
Altay bir eki ch trt besh altI jeti segis togus on
Chulym pir' igi ts trt pesh alti jedi segis toghus on
Shor pir iygi sh trt pesh alti chetti segis togus on
Tuvan bir iyi sh drt besh aldi chedi ses tos on
Karagas bir ihi is, trt beis, alt t~ed sehes tohos on

All we really have at the end of the day is Chuvash and descendants of the Kok Turk language, and even they are more similar than different;
Old Turkic+ bir iki ch trt besh alt yeti skiz toquz on
Chuvash pr ik vis' tvat pilk ult s'ich sakr tkhr vun

[That three in Chuvash is intriguingly similar to 5 in Finnic, for what that's worth!;) ]

It's a crying shame we don't have much evidence of the Hunnu language, but that's where they'd all trace back to, and in chronological terms, this is comfortably within the first millenium BC.

And what was going on in the vicinity of the Turkic Urheimat at the time? The IEans had firmly established themselves in the Altai, leaving us with their mummies, Mongol traditions of rufous Chinggisids and Chinese accounts of red haired devils.
The conclusion to be drawn is that the Turkics were ever in contact with fully Europid populations.